The Hotel End

The Hotel End => Cobblers Corner => Topic started by: 606 Parklands_Cobbler on January 24, 2018, 14:08:05 pm



Title: Drug Culture in Football
Post by: 606 Parklands_Cobbler on January 24, 2018, 14:08:05 pm
Today I saw an article where Santi Carzola of Arsenal was talking about his ongoing ankle problems and was quoting as saying "The first operation was risky. The problem was my skin. I'd had a lot of corticosteroids during my career and the skin was quite deteriorated."
The future Premier League champions Manchester City also have a current doping violation against their name, alongside Bournemouth and Fleetwood Town, for 3 strikes and you're out on the whereabouts rule implied by Wada.
Its on record that the Operación Puerto doctor Eufemiano Fuentes was seen with numerous Spanish footballers.
I'm sure there are many more cases that you can find for yourself.

This got me thinking about the blasé attitute that not only the people running the sport have, but also the media and the fans.
As a cycling fan the smallest things are blown hugely out of proportion, but they are the front runners in cleaning up their sport, and it wouldn't surprise if it is now one of the cleanest out there.
It seems to me that only endurance sports get criticised as it could be seen as having more of a benefit. But as football continues to get quicker and the rise of importance in sports science and keeping fit, I feel this is no longer the case. Just look at Shrewsbury, its not coincidence that the more you run in a game the more you win.

I'm not even sure what stance Northampton Town take as it has never even been discused, its not seen as an issue. How would you feel if it was found out that we used drugs of anykind to aid performance. You only have to look at countless interviews with managers and players who naturally front up to using injections to get get people through matches. (A needle ban in cycling now is pretty much commonplace) Does anyone care? I'm not even sure I would, but yet other sports I feel differently about. (I can't stand the hypocrisy with Mo Farah for example)

I'm not sure where I'm going with this, but perhaps it would be interesting that a question gets raised about it in the next open forum?
In any case I'd like to hear different views on it. Sorry for the lack of a coherent piece. It turned into a ramble.


Title: Re: Drug Culture in Football
Post by: The Rauldinho on January 24, 2018, 14:20:58 pm
If the "drugs" are used to treat injuries or enable a player to play, then I don't see the problem.

Performance enhancing drugs are not really commonplace, although didn't Billy Turley get caught taking something he shouldn't have?


Title: Re: Drug Culture in Football
Post by: cobblerwatch on January 24, 2018, 14:36:06 pm
Players are very well educated on prohibited drugs even at youth team level - however (although no defense in doping regulations) there is a massive difference in clear performance enhancing drugs (blatant cheating) versus in some cases simple over the counter treatments either taken in ignorance in slighty excessive amounts or sometimes simply via a normal dose.

The issue of drugs used for treatment is different - there may be an ethical or indeed long term health implication but they are not banned.

There is also an argument on natural versus chemical - the use of EPO is of course banned - altitude training which has exactly the same physiological affect is not.

Bottom line for me is there a clear list of banned substances - either specific or in excess amounts.
The system is not perfect but testing statistics would suggest this is not a huge problem in football.


Title: Re: Drug Culture in Football
Post by: Wolvo on January 24, 2018, 14:48:27 pm
I remember reading about a Poland vs England match which was called off last minute due to a waterlogged pitch (they had a retractable roof!). The players were prescribed between 400-600mg caffeine pre match, only to then be diagnosed with sleeping pills due to not being able to sleep on that caffeine dose.

Needles to say, the game went ahead the next day and the players played out a dreadfully boring game... No doubt to feeling groggy from the sleeping pill after effects. Both legal and very common place in sport, and shows the lengths people will go to just to get a slight advantage.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/international/fa-silent-after-it-emerges-england-players-needed-sleeping-pills-after-taking-caffeine-tablets-8216374.html%3famp


Title: Re: Drug Culture in Football
Post by: southofthecounty on January 24, 2018, 16:59:39 pm
I read fairly recently in The Times Gregor Robertson's account of taking too many painkillers whilst playing for us. He wasn't happy about it, but felt he had no choice.


Title: Re: Drug Culture in Football
Post by: St Edmundsbury Cobbler on January 24, 2018, 22:27:55 pm

 didn't Billy Turley get caught taking something he shouldn't have?


He rarely caught something he should have done too.... The ball.


Title: Re: Drug Culture in Football
Post by: Melbourne Cobbler on January 25, 2018, 01:09:27 am
How interesting 606, I’d never really given this too much thought before? Although I recall a story I heard about Batistuta wetting the bed because he was unable to go through the pain of walking to the toilet. It states in the links below that it was so bad he actually asked a doctor to amputate both his legs above the ankle? I would assume this was one of the possible consequences of painkiller/drug overuse?https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gabriel_Batistuta
http://www.worldsoccer.com/news/gabriel-batistuta-asked-legs-amputated-356207


Title: Re: Drug Culture in Football
Post by: BackOfTheNet on January 25, 2018, 06:53:45 am
 Chris Hargreaves talks in his book about the number of injections he was having to get through games in the latter part of his career. Pain serves a purpose in letting you know something isn't right. Blanking that pain out and carrying on regardless is rarely a good idea in the long term!


Title: Re: Drug Culture in Football
Post by: Wolvo on January 25, 2018, 08:51:37 am
How interesting 606, I’d never really given this too much thought before? Although I recall a story I heard about Batistuta wetting the bed because he was unable to go through the pain of walking to the toilet. It states in the links below that it was so bad he actually asked a doctor to amputate both his legs above the ankle? I would assume this was one of the possible consequences of painkiller/drug overuse?https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gabriel_Batistuta
http://www.worldsoccer.com/news/gabriel-batistuta-asked-legs-amputated-356207

Numerous players from the serie a purple period have spoke out about unintentional drug abuse. They didn't even test for steroids until 1999.

Just dug this article out from 1998, makes a good read of you're interested in the subject:

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football-drugs-in-serie-a-italy-sinking-deeper-into-scandal-1178042.html?amp

Once the 00's came around, I remember Edgar Davids and Pep Guardiola receiving bans for nandrolone steroid use. Nedved also stated he used to be placed on a drip before games and felt like he could jump through the ceiling of changing rooms before games.

I like to think it's rarer now due to better testing. But you keep seeing elite players disappear over preseason for a few weeks and coming back looking like Olympic sprinters.


Title: Re: Drug Culture in Football
Post by: 606 Parklands_Cobbler on January 25, 2018, 17:24:00 pm
I think the question comes at what point do you use drugs? If you are unable to play without the aid of them, I personally think that is where the line starts. The 'grey area' is a hard one to manage and I just don't think football is doing enough. The double standards compared to other sports is ridiculous. So many players have niggles and they use injections to get them through the game. Is that performance enhancing? If not, then could it be abused? In many sports there are TUE's which are certain drugs that can be given legally to bring you up to 100% A question cycling has gone through (they've moved on since) is whether you take more than you need that could be seen as enhancing your normal ability.

The question of sleeping pills to help plays sleep is another interesting one. Again going back to cycling, 1 rider got sacked and 2 others suspended for taking them without their team (Lotto Jumbo) knowing. (they were caught as they couldn't be woken up the next morning for a meeting)
On the question cobblerwatch raised about 'testing statistics would suggest this is not a huge problem in football', I don't know how regularly and crucially when they happen (I doubt very often) but the lack of positive tests to me can only be a bad sign.

Gregor Robertson case seems a regular one. If you are not sure of a contract, then you will do everything in your power to get fit. As a knowledgable man, If he wasn't happy about it, then I think there could be more to this than meets the eye.


Title: Re: Drug Culture in Football
Post by: JollyCobbler on January 25, 2018, 18:54:15 pm
I'm all for drugs in sport. I want to live long enough to see someone run 100 metres in under 3.5 seconds! ;) ;D


Title: Re: Drug Culture in Football
Post by: 606 Parklands_Cobbler on January 26, 2018, 10:49:06 am
I'm all for drugs in sport. I want to live long enough to see someone run 100 metres in under 3.5 seconds! ;) ;D

Cheers for that valuable insight. Well glossed over just like ...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/42830532


Title: Re: Drug Culture in Football
Post by: 606 Parklands_Cobbler on February 27, 2018, 11:50:02 am
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/43032571

Another interesting development. Hope it gets the attention it deserves.


Title: Re: Drug Culture in Football
Post by: Battery Man on February 27, 2018, 12:05:57 pm
Well after the last few home performances I don't think any of our players are on Speed! In all seriousness, I think it needs to be looked at in footballers as the permanent damage pain killing injections cause them in later life are not even considered by the teams and maybe should be. The quality of life of retired players at our level and below of the game is probably pretty poor just so they could turn out every Saturday and should these injections be classed as performance enhancing, as without them players probably wouldn't be able to play as many games.
With regard to Turley, I think he was caught a couple of times, not sure what he had been taking.


Title: Re: Drug Culture in Football
Post by: Manwork04 on February 27, 2018, 13:08:15 pm
I'm all for drugs in sport. I want to live long enough to see someone run 100 metres in under 3.5 seconds! ;) ;D
Bang on Jolly, I think player should be penalised if they don't take drugs, more the merrier for me.
606 are you a vicar?


Title: Re: Drug Culture in Football
Post by: 606 Parklands_Cobbler on February 27, 2018, 13:24:58 pm
What I am is (also) a cycling fan who is sick of the double standards that the media and football fans have when it comes to this.


Title: Re: Drug Culture in Football
Post by: tcobb on February 27, 2018, 17:19:54 pm
Professional cycling was riddled with drug taking. Football and other sports may have an amount of drug abuse, I doubt it's any where near the level that professional cycling managed to reach.


Title: Re: Drug Culture in Football
Post by: Boot and shoe on February 27, 2018, 19:39:03 pm
Social drugs are rife in football ..... no news there surely ?


Title: Re: Drug Culture in Football
Post by: Melbourne Cobbler on February 27, 2018, 19:56:06 pm
Bang on Jolly, I think player should be penalised if they don't take drugs, more the merrier for me.
606 are you a vicar?
Somewhat controversial?


Title: Re: Drug Culture in Football
Post by: Manwork04 on February 27, 2018, 23:11:27 pm
Somewhat controversial?
Just think about it loads of new world records the Russian athletes would be ordinary all together awesome.


Title: Re: Drug Culture in Football
Post by: tcobb on March 05, 2018, 10:35:44 am
Bradley Wiggins and his Team had pushed the limits it seems.


Title: Re: Drug Culture in Football
Post by: unicobbler on March 05, 2018, 11:37:27 am
Bradley Wiggins and his Team had pushed the limits it seems.
Not according to WADA or UKAD (although didn't exactly come off clean) but according to a bunch of politicians.

I watched a few of the select committee hearings and when they are asking questions like 'do you regularly move bikes by car and use EasyJet' as if it is some scandal they used EasyJet. Some of the lines of questioning were shocking and clearly a witch hunt by politicians after a bit of air time.



Title: Re: Drug Culture in Football
Post by: 606 Parklands_Cobbler on March 05, 2018, 13:05:47 pm
In cycling terms this is a total non-event. It's not even being discussed on the continent. For some reason polititions think that taking a moral stand is important.
Dan Roan - fellow ntfc fan (and/or his bbc bosses) seem to really want to whip up a storm.


Title: Re: Drug Culture in Football
Post by: Poggy on March 05, 2018, 13:13:47 pm
I remember reading about some of the drug use when all the Olympic athletes had their notes leaked / hacked the other year. There were a lot of athletes using medication to control behaviour (ADHD) which doesn't sit well with me. Particularly athletes winning medals where a lot of concentration is required as I think this gives an unfair advantage. I wonder how much this type of medication is used on footballers especially with younger players whose parents have striven to label their children as an excuse for bad behaviour / poor parenting.


Title: Re: Drug Culture in Football
Post by: unicobbler on March 05, 2018, 15:38:52 pm
The use of TUE's in sport is an interesting one as there always seems to be a higher than normal level of ailments amongst professional sportsmen. Part of the reason for this is that a lot of people who have asthma for example are encouraged to try sports such as cycling and swimming, the drug that Sharapova used was to treat a heart defect that she's been treated for a long time, however a lot of Russians seem to have the same.

I genuinely don't think Sky did cheat. I think they may have pushed the limits of what is allowed though. It has to be WADA to make a better job of what is and isn't allowed across all sports and to punish accordingly. The biggest issue with Sky is they have always claimed to be 100% clean and now there is doubt if they played in the grey area and as previously stated Dan Roan / BBC have gone after it like a witch hunt, the same as the select committee.

If they can, I wouldn't be surprised if Sky and Wiggins try to sue for defamation or similar. Can you sue the government though?


Title: Re: Drug Culture in Football
Post by: Wolvo on March 05, 2018, 18:13:19 pm
I genuinely don't think Sky did cheat.

From what I've read, it seems like they haven't been accused of cheating as such. Just morally cheating. Hence why it isn't news on the continent, because absolutely every cyclist going morally cheats.

Individual, pure endurance sports are prime suspects for pushing legal drugs to the absolute limit.


Title: Re: Drug Culture in Football
Post by: guest3181 on March 05, 2018, 21:46:22 pm
.... and if Team Sky was Russian????

Here's the French take on GB cheats.....  http://www.lemonde.fr/cyclisme/article/2018/03/05/cyclisme-le-team-sky-a-utilise-des-medicaments-pour-ameliorer-les-performances-de-ses-coureurs_5265654_1616656.html


Title: Re: Drug Culture in Football
Post by: unicobbler on March 06, 2018, 07:34:37 am
From what I've read, it seems like they haven't been accused of cheating as such. Just morally cheating. Hence why it isn't news on the continent, because absolutely every cyclist going morally cheats.

Individual, pure endurance sports are prime suspects for pushing legal drugs to the absolute limit.

Quote
"Drugs were being used by Team Sky, within World Anti-Doping Agency (Wada) rules, to enhance the performance of riders and not just to treat medical need," the DCMS committee report added.
Its as close to accusing someone of cheating without actually using the word. My understanding is if they are being used to enhance performance, even if a TUE has been granted, then it is outside of the rules.


Title: Re: Drug Culture in Football
Post by: Deepcut Cobbler on March 06, 2018, 07:42:49 am
Its as close to accusing someone of cheating without actually using the word. My understanding is if they are being used to enhance performance, even if a TUE has been granted, then it is outside of the rules.

From my understanding, the drug they have been using is OK if used to the correct frequency and dosage to treat what it has been prescribed for.
Unfortunately it appears that they have used the correct dosage but up to fifty times above the frequency it should have (Instead of twice a year they have used it almost every week of that year).  This has treated the ailment but it has also enhanced the performance of the individual above that which is allowed.


Title: Re: Drug Culture in Football
Post by: unicobbler on March 06, 2018, 10:11:53 am
From my understanding, the drug they have been using is OK if used to the correct frequency and dosage to treat what it has been prescribed for.
Unfortunately it appears that they have used the correct dosage but up to fifty times above the frequency it should have (Instead of twice a year they have used it almost every week of that year).  This has treated the ailment but it has also enhanced the performance of the individual above that which is allowed.
Possibly I don't know, and I don't think anyone does. But surely if it had been used to that extent it would have shown up in doping samples? That was another thing that has been missing from the news reports (haven't read the full report from politicians) but he would have been tested throughout the Criterium and other events so even though he would have been allowed a banned substance its only allowed to a level


Title: Re: Drug Culture in Football
Post by: Wolvo on March 06, 2018, 10:31:09 am
From my understanding, the drug they have been using is OK if used to the correct frequency and dosage to treat what it has been prescribed for.
Unfortunately it appears that they have used the correct dosage but up to fifty times above the frequency it should have (Instead of twice a year they have used it almost every week of that year).  This has treated the ailment but it has also enhanced the performance of the individual above that which is allowed.

Which, in Cycling terms, is the equivalent to a goalkeeper taking 45 seconds to take a goal kick when preserving a 1 goal lead.