The Hotel End

Confirmed on the clubs website.

The controlling shareholding of NTFC is up for sale due to frustrations with the council.

Not surprised really, had a feeling this was coming based on some of his previous interviews. Looked like he’d had enough a while back.

Time for the keyboard owners to step up ......I

No surprise .
I think this has been evident for a while and I don’t blame them .
The club is in real danger now and I am nervous about what lies ahead .
As for the council , they couldn’t care less. Individuals need outing in that organisation and disgracing publicly .
Dark days ahead

Would be interesting to know the name of the member of the council they think is working against them. I think this has been coming for a while and maybe it could be a good thing long term for the club, but I would have thought that finding a buyer whilst there is still this situation regarding the East Stand will prove difficult.

Not sure how to read the official statement as in someways it can be interpreted as a ‘lever’ to force the Council to act on the lease situation. Also how likely will it be easy to sell a club with an outstanding legal/lease issue?

Why would it be a lever? As previously said, I don't think the council care either way.

From reading the statement (I know its only one side of the argument but haven't seen anything from the council, which seems to be the challenge) I can't blame them for their decision. Hopefully it will give the council a kick up the **** but I'm sure if someone comes along they will be gone.

I know some will say its just an excuse and they want out, and they're welcome to their opinion, but I feel that KT etc are the right people for the club in the short term and this is devastating news. I cant believe any one who is in it for the game will want the club with the same issues, only people will be interested are people who want land to develop. Not necessarily a bad thing as long as the club is funded but adds a level of risk.

Its never boring supporting this club!

You could look at it as a threat I suppose but I’m not sure the council care .
I believe there are people in that council who are looking after their own interests and would rather the whole thing disappeared .
Those individuals need flushing out and exposing . They need to be made accountable for their actions before and after the Thomas takeover .
The organisation is rotten .

This is worrying and alarming news, and I dont blame them. We as fans need to step up and start putting pressure on the council to just deal with it

“For reasons known only to themselves, on 17 September 2013 NBC granted a lease of an area of land adjacent to and forming part of the East Stand to County Developments Northampton Ltd (CDNL) set up by the previous Chairman and his partners. This land was already leased to the club..."

SOMEONE HAS SOMETHING TO HIDE AND MR MACINTOSH PROBABLY KNOWS MORE ABOUT THIS THAN HE WILL EVER SAY. THE POLITICIANS ARE HOLDING OUT HOPING THAT THE POLICE INVESTIGATIONS ARE CLOSED AND THEY CAN BREATHE A SIGH OF RELEIF.

I STILL FEEL THAT KT AND DB HAVE THE INTERESTS OF THE CLUB AT HEART

The big problem I can see is that if KT & DB sell the club, they still own CDNL and the lease behind the East Stand, so they can basically stop the East being completed if a new owner takes over, because they own the land.

For the full NTFC Statement:
https://www.ntfc.co.uk/news/2018/may/club_statement_230518/

CLUB STATEMENT: BOARD TOTALLY FRUSTRATED BY LACK OF ACTION, COOPERATION AND COMMUNICATION FROM NORTHAMPTON BOROUGH COUNCIL

The Board of Directors confirm that having grown totally frustrated with the complete lack of action, cooperation or communication from Northampton Borough Council that they are reluctantly open to a discussion about selling their controlling shareholding in Northampton Town Football Club.

Chairman Kelvin Thomas said, “We find ourselves in an extremely disappointing and almost impossible position and having tried over so many months every possible approach to Northampton Borough Council to regularise the East Stand lease position, we feel that we have little choice but to step aside and allow others to complete the process. Regularising the lease position should not, under any circumstances, be controversial and we have been merely asking NBC to correct their own error made back in 2013 which was before our involvement.”

Director David Bower added, “For reasons known only to themselves, on 17 September 2013 NBC granted a lease of an area of land adjacent to and forming part of the East Stand to County Developments Northampton Ltd (CDNL) set up by the previous Chairman and his partners. This land was already leased to the club. After taking over the club and understanding the full picture, it was clear this situation needed correcting and we assumed that NBC would work with us to this end.

“To ensure that we could effectively sort out the Council’s error, Kelvin and I paid a considerable sum to allow CDNL (which by then had been placed in liquidation) to go through a Company Voluntary Arrangement. This process was completed in the face of considerable opposition from various officers and members of the Council who clearly had a different agenda. In an effort to frustrate our plans the Council unsuccessfully wasted considerable sums of public money in legal fees when the Council could have achieved what both they and the football club required with a more cooperative approach.

“For almost 18 months we have been asking the Council to allow CDNL to surrender the relevant area to the Football Club so that there was no potential conflict. In December 2017, after many months of pushing, solicitors instructed by the Council, sent to our solicitors a draft Deed of Surrender. Our solicitors processed this within one working day with minimal change and returned the draft Deed to the Council’s solicitors.

“However, since then we have not been able to make any further progress despite numerous approaches to various Officers of the Council and in fact we received notice last week from the Council solicitor they were still waiting for instruction from the Council. A promise was even made by the Council to the Supporters Trust that the surrender would be completed by no later than the end of March 2018, a deadline that passed without any movement.

“The Deed of Surrender merely gives up without any payment or other consideration any claim which CDNL has, to the relevant area which would remove any possible conflict for the club in the future. Unfortunately, the ownership of the club and CDNL is not 100% common because the club has many additional smaller shareholders, mainly fans, alongside Kelvin and myself. It is also very important to protect the interests of all the parties that the lease position is legally correct.

“Notwithstanding the essential simplicity of what has been proposed, the Council continues to prevaricate and Kelvin and I can only conclude that certain officers and members have a personal issue with us. We both agree we can’t allow this negative situation to continue and the club and its supporters deserve better, therefore we have had to make the decision we have.

“Kelvin and I have tried on behalf of the club to engage in a constructive fashion with Officers of the Council, including the Leader, in regard to the real opportunities that exist on the Sixfields site, but no action is ever taken and this lack of action on the lease position is the final straw for us. If we felt confident that we could have a reasonable dialogue with the Council on matters then our view may have been different, but we have to draw a line in the sand at some point.

“We now believe that at least one senior officer, who was interestingly involved when the original loans were made and when the problem lease was also issued, remains influential in the total lack of cooperation that we have seen. We have previously suggested to the Council that if this is not the case then why don’t they prove this by their actions and Kelvin and I repeated this observation.”

Chairman Kelvin Thomas continued, “We have thought for a while that there are parties within the Council who are working against us personally in this process. We accept during various stages of the purchase and the subsequent CDNL CVA proceedings we had to take a rather robust position with the Council to protect the club’s interests, but we did not expect this to work against us in such a way.

“It seems there is now some sort of agenda in the background against David and myself and regrettably we think the only course of action available is to allow others to take matters forward. We are confident there is still a really good opportunity for the club’s wider development and we do think the Council can play a positive role in this matter for the benefit of the whole community, but it seems that needs to be with someone other than us.

“What is most frustrating, considering what happened prior to our ownership, is that we have not asked the Council for anything other than to work together to regularise this incorrect lease position to protect the club. This process is not contingent on any other matter, tied to any additional land or requires any Council funding.

“The Supporters Trust have also tried in vain to get information from the Council and have had numerous missed deadlines and whilst we have been able to show the Trust legal confirmation that what we have said is correct, we understand the Council have been unable to provide any legal confirmation to substantiate their claims. We have also taken time to meet with Chairman Andy Roberts and Board Member Kevin Simons from the Trust and were very open with our frustration and we know they are working hard to find out what is going on also.

“Financially we are in a strong position to open conversations about the shareholding of the club and it is important to make clear that we will continue to support the Football Club as normal during our ownership and the existing budget discussed with James (Whiting) and Dean (Austin) does not change in any way and this will be a competitive budget for the league next season. The club has always been stable financially under our ownership and this will continue, and we will complete any discussions in a professional manner.

“We do feel this creates an opportunity for someone, or a group, to be able to take the club forward. We would love those conversations to be with local people and are very open to that, but what is most important is that our discussions are with people who can demonstrate the appropriate level of finances, energy, and desire to progress the club.

“We have always tried to be as open as possible with supporters whilst trying to advance matters regarding the East Stand in the background with the Council and we are firm in our commitment that we will put the club first, but it is now with a heavy heart that we have reached this point as we feel we have been left with no choice.”

A complicated and sensitive situation. There still appears to be little public clarity (please show me if I'm mistaken) on whether there are wider plans to redevelop the land around Sixfields other than complete the East Stand.

There is also not enough information from the Council's side and this is not acceptable given what happened under Cardoza.

Time for both sides to put their cards on the table.

Also if there are any financial interests (particularly local) who have the best interests of the club at heart, then now seems the time to make a play. I'm sure the supporters' trust will be all ears, especially if a member-ownership % is viable.

I can't see that happening, as nobody would buy the club under those circumstances.

So KT and DB have to sell their controlling interests in both companies to the same buyer otherwise it will be even more complicated than it is now.

I understand that Kelvin and Bower own CDNL outright and that the NTFC ownership is more fragmented with various small shareholders so why couldnt NTFC just buy CDNL off Kelvin and Bower for a £1 sum, then the club would surely own the leasehold?  Is this too basic an option that it’s not legally possible?

At least Beds can now put his masterplan into action!

Whoever this senior officer is, expect him to be outed soon. Keep an eye on the Chron. Even if dodgy, what benefit does this SO get from holding up development now? If he took a backhander in the past, how does that affect the present?

As discussed previously there would still be 2 leases for the same land.   As the press release states the simpliest solution would be for one to be surrendered but the Council has to agree. The land cannot be developed until this matter is resolved.

This issue remains whoever buys the club. They appear to believe that its personal and that the council will be more forthcoming with new owners.

First and foremost NBC need to fulfil an already made promise and sign the necessary document. They (as well as NCC) are a totally inadequate bunch of toss-pots who get their thrills by annoying the maximum number of voters who then reward them by voting them back in! Stupidity at all levels. FURTHER the statement by Kelvin Thomas that he's considering selling-up his group's tranche of shares should also ring alarm bells - my guess is that it may be more than simple leverage to try to persuade NBC to pull their fingers out - it could indicate that his group have looked at the financial future and want to get their cash out before it devalues. Worrying times!

Again, might it be sensible for Saints to enter the fray and redevelop the land either in association with the Cobblers or in exchange for Franklins Gardens?

Why would the Saints do that?

Chance to build a stadium as large as they wish within the town. Land for their size construction is at a premium.

And how large do they need it? The fickleness of the Northampton public is not just limited to The Cobblers....Saints played games in front of less than 10000 last year due to their poor form and performances.
They have the third biggest dedicated Rugby Union capacity in the country already (15300).....do they need anything much bigger?

And move it to Sunderland?

So let’s stop beating around the bush .
Someone must know on here who the right and proper , upstanding individuals of the council are that are blocking any progress because they are of course acting in the best interest of the town and its finances .
I am sure naming them on here could only be to their benefit because they are doing a Stirling job protecting the public from rogue investors .
Who would like to put their name forward into the public domain ?

Let's not let Saints bashing get in the way of sense. They could easily get 25k with their catchment area and the growth of the town.

They haven’t yet....well, until they wandered off to MK for a couple of games in seasons gone by. They didn’t even bother to do that this season!
Not Saints bashing, just being realistic! If they were right at the top of their game their ground wouldn’t be big enough......just like ours!!

My question is, Who would want to buy the club with this rangle going on. Its a big ball of hastle and if our current owner have had enough will new investors want the same hassles. So if no buyer can be found and the current owners have had enough, is that the end of NTFC as we know it? We can either stand united as fans and support the club by puttong pressure on the council, hope theres an election coming up and kick this lot out (though what replaces it may turn out to be worse OR find away to ditch Sixfields and go it alone with out the council....

Is CDNL is part of the police investigation?

I expected this to happen next week and after the season ticket deadline passes. I must say its fair game from KT that he hasn't allowed that 'side show' to happen and for that I applaud him.

We all know that the council is incompetent but thats the case with most councils. Im not going to be too critical of them though, they have shown three times in the past (building Sixfields, the loan to DC and the write off to enable KT to do the 'deal') that they will 'support' the Football Club which quite frankly, is a financial drain around their necks…and one big hassle.

Its my opinion and I still feel exactly the same as I did back in March when it was announced that the Chinese had left the scenes that our current owners have taken the club as far as they can both on and off the pitch. Whilst massively increasing the cost base (wages).

None of us know whether or not this 'proposed development' was going to be funded by private investment or through regeneration. I *suspect the latter, totally. Which is why Im both pleased and relieved that it is now all out in the open. 2 and 2 together, I just couldn't see why these two individuals would want to spend 4 million quid on a new East Stand without significant opportunities to get that £££ back quickly. And if that is the case (which Im not saying it is, Im just saying what I think it is) then why would a Dubai based old age pensioner with zero interest in NTFC as a sports team who had previously sold out to the Chinese and basically been forced into re-aquiring his stake hold back be prepared to  fund it for no realistic short-medium ROI?

I appreciate that most of our fans will blame the council like they did last time when DC couldn't get what he wanted for years. I was on the famous 'march' like I guess a fair few other contributors on here were, Im now battle worn and quite frankly just want our football club to be owned and run by people who love the game and want our team to do well. End of. If that is at 'cost' then fine, I don't expect any individual to pump money into what is essentially my hobby. On the flip side, I also don't want any individual to make money from it! And Im a capitalist and small business owner.

I again re-iterate what I said and was beaten up by a fair few people on here a few weeks back. I want our football club to END 15 years of 'redevelopment bullsh1t' and become a bloody 'Football Club' again once more. I don't want a land grabber to take over, or anybody who thinks they can make money out of the West Stand car park or whichever other land they think may be up for grabs. Its become obsessive, its pretty much all we bloody hear about.

A good day for me. It will be most interesting to see what occurs in the coming weeks.

Can't argue with too much of that.

Given that the date of the lease being changed is public it would be possible to track the minutes of planning meetings on the borough councils website. This would show the names of those present and maybe some additional background information possible.

As mentioned does the sale include the assets of CDNL or will these continue to be held separately?

Nothing new here, the club is and always has been up for sale if someone came along willing to buy, this is a move to go public to try and force the councils hand

How do the trust feel about this statement?

Have the trust had any joy in trying to obtain answers regarding the missed deadline given to them by NBC?

I expect a statement imminently from the council telling the other side of the story.

As Drilling says, cant we just go back to talking about the football club rather than NYFC being something attached to a lease/land fiasco.

With the last two owners it’s been about development opportunities first, and football club second. Change the record!!

And Drilling makes good points about the council....it’s sheer folly to say that they are always against us and have never done anything for the club. Yes they messed up big time with the loan shambles, but they wrote off that debt from the club instead of taking us down.
The point people seem to miss is that THEY are now liable for that money...even though they it wasn’t from them on the first place, they have to repay it, or most of it now. Hence why they’ve spent another million plus trying to recover it. If they weren’t liable then why bother? The club may have been able to wash its hands of the Cardoza/gross man saga but the council can’t yet.....and I never expected them to bend over backwards again to help out more property/land developers.

I don’t support your description on ‘lever’ as a threat.

Be patient, Drilling can open a thread with a poll, so we can all have a guess who it might just be...before Terry Hamster locks it!  ;)

Haven't got time to go into whole planning document but CDNL named on huge Cardoza mixed use planning application for land behind Sixfields.

http://planning.northamptonboroughcouncil.com/planning/search-applications?civica.query.FullTextSearch=Sixfields#DOC?DocNo=4387172

Please consider the words I used - it was a perception and to me seemed an attempt to get a reaction from the Council on the lease.

Alfred as a matter of interest who are these keyboard owners. Is this a play on words?

i assume he means anyone who has gone on about how easy it is to get the infrastructure and east stand development sorted, and that there is people with money out there who would come and do it at the drop of a hat..................according to them.

or the people who some how thought the trust had enough money to take over the club and do it all.

or the people who are happy enough to tell the current owners how to spend their money without having the balls or money to stand up and do it themselves.

any of those - they aren't all beds either!!

I agree with this - I don’t think any of could say that we are particularly surprised by this announcement, cue another round of tit for tat between KT and the council.

Which totally resonates what I have tried to say for ages now. For those that think that KT was going to build anything without a significant return. Well... You know that's madness. And for those that don't believe there is corruption at the council. Well... You know that is madness as well.

I have fought tooth and nail (and I deal with the very people who say yes and no down there) to say you are better off going back to basics. Either go for the football and your team, or not at all. You will never in a million years permeate this mess. I was in the throes of getting onto the Trust about their meeting with the council, until got some feedback from a member of the council about the meeting. Suffice to say, it was the final nail in the coffin for me giving a shyte about the redevelopment. The Trust for me should have put their cards on the table before every meeting and stated that anything said to them, must be done so on the understanding that they will produce minutes. But the Trust is totally honest in their attempt to mediate. Christians in with Lions IMO. The council is imploding. And in this case, the truth genuinely has been the first casualty. Having said that. I have no allegiance. One side I deal with frequently, the other I have only met once.

But this is NTFC. Enough said....  

Just on this bit, why do you say Thomas is asking the council to bend over backwards to help?

I ask this full in the knowledge I am probably being naïve and understand we have only heard one side of the story. From the clubs statement it the two conflicting leases have slightly different ownership; 1) Owned solely by Thomas and Bower 2) Owned by the club, of which Thomas and Bower are majority shareholders but several other parties have a stake. The club are asking for the council to help dissolve lease 1)...the one solely owned by Thomas and Bower. I'm sure there are many reasons to be cautious of our owners motives but I'd be more worried if they wanted lease 2 dissolved, i.e. they got control of the land themselves rather than the club.

I also don't see why the thought is there that the council will have to bend over backwards or are handing anything to Thomas and Bower, if anything they'll be taking something away.

I'm sure I've got it completely wrong somewhere but to be honest I cannot pick through the information available to understand all this, as others seem to have, it is way above my pay grade!

My understanding is that the CDNL lease has differing/restrictive limitations for any future development and require the councils agreement to change in alignment with the NTFC owned land?

Oh the joys!

Not completely sure what to make of it having only just read the statement but from first viewing it looks like there are blockers in the council preventing KT and co from moving on the development of the East Stand. Will await the council's side of things but assuming it's a lot more complicated than I've read it to be!

As others have said, this is all a huge sideshow to what should be the most important thing - what happens on the pitch and our connection to it, not who gets rich from building around that.

I have read it as a way to see if he can force NBC arm to speed up the red tape they seem to be stuck behind, or pure incompetence.

He wont just drop us and leave, we will be ok as we are, we wouldnt be signing players if there was issues.

 I happen to think that even if this sorts the the lease situation he is still looking for exit strategy, if he had the lease sorted he would probably have a better hand if selling.

I agree with much of what's been posted so far.

Not much has changed in KT and DB's attitudes to selling - they would always have listened to offers. I think KT has even said as much, before and after the Chinese chapter.

Without knowing or understanding every detail, it feels possible that KT/DB have simply used this as a means to go public with their frustrations. They needed a reason to say the things they've now said about the council.

Possibly the second ‘or’ .......comment!

With the likelihood of major changes in council structures across all boroughs plus the county council I’d imagine a lot of senior people in these authorities are most likely bricking it and or positioning themselves for an exit or how to hold on.

 Where that leaves these sorts of decisions in the hierarchy god only knows.

.....you are miffed only because you didn't get the last word on our last exchange  ;D

I tend to agree that this is more than just a gesture - I sincerely hope I am wrong but I'm also very fearful the next few weeks will show the flaws in the "Beds" argument that local, wealthy, club at heart potential custodians are waiting in the wings to take over from those bad bad men who currently owns the club.

Possibly so, but to invest in a 25,000 Sixfields stadium the Saints would first have to sell off that prime plot they own down at the Gardens; they definitely wouldn't be handing it over to NTFC as part of some swap deal.

It doesn't matter which party holds sway at the Guildhall, the problem is - and has been for years - the council officers. If you don't believe me then consider this:Regardless of who is in power, Northampton is consistently one of the worst run councils in the country, and has been for the last twenty-five years.

I made the same point earlier. The elected councillors decide on the destination but rely on the unelected morons steering the ship to get them there.

They might do if it gets them access to land worth an absolute bomb and far larger than the FG footprint.

You have a way with words/opinion where even Angels fear to tread.

Didn't need just to refer to Thomas and co...but anyone who stands to make a small fortune from developing on the land.

I've heard about "leases" and who "controls" the land, but who actually owns the land? Is it the Council, is it English Partnerships or whoever it is now? If the land is so valuable then why don't the "owners" of the land sell it off for development themselves? How did this land come under control of the club and/or CDNL?

We have been told that there is no business case for expansion of the ground (by KT), we have been told (by the Council) that there is nothing within the current lease set up that is stopping at least the East Stand being completed.

So whatever is planned for the land (and who knows what that is) doesn't seem to benefit the council, or the football club, but it does benefit a property developer, be that Cardoza or Thomas. Tha'ts why i'm implying that the football club is a (sometimes inconvenient) sideshow to the bigger picture, and that bigger picture is land development.

Thanks for the response, certainly understand where you are coming from. Your last line is spot on!

It just seemed to me that what the club is currently asking from the council doesn't seem like a huge deal, if it is it would be good for the council to outline this and the reasons why.

Sadly, despite a lot of the stuff that is posted on here, a savvy developer who does things the right way is right up there with our best chances of growing the club. I doubt too many fans would complain if the clubs whole infrastructure was improved and then whoever the owners were at the time made a tidy profit, either with some associated development or by selling a much improved club.

Thomas and Bowers true intentions? we'll probably never really know.

Interesting....
I’m sure at a forum when asked who owned ntfc KT explained himself and David owned it.
I was surprised as I always thought that the club had other local shareholders(I think con Wilson and his family had a shareholding but may be wrong)
Now today it emerges the club have other small shareholders...

I may have got this completely wrong which is more than likely as it’s only from memory and apologies if so but I wish I could flashback to the forum and the ownership structure.

 The whole sorry saga is one where DC had the perfect opportunity to develop land that he had control of, develop the stadium that he had control of, pay off the loan and leave himself with a profit, get his money back from the club and ride off into the sunset keeping most parties happy.

Instead we have this stinking mess, tosspots who took advantage, criminal investigations and back in the fourth division.

That level of opportunity isn’t going to happen again.

Wank.

I've seen breakdowns before so if i remember right, Thomas and Bower purchased Northampton Town Ventures Limited which gave them around 75% (could be wrong) of the share in the club.  The rest of the shares are owned by something like 100 ish people.

Northampton Town Supporters’ Trust has noted the statement from Northampton Town Football Club owners Kelvin Thomas and David Bower that they are now considering selling their controlling shareholding in the football club.

The club has cited a lack of action, co-operation and communication from Northampton Borough Council in respect of the development of the East Stand at Sixfields.

It has become clear that negotiations have stalled between both parties and last month the Trust voiced its considerable frustration at the apparent stalemate in talks, with both parties giving the Trust conflicting position statements.

We felt that this deadlock needed to be broken as a matter of urgency and so wrote to both the council and the football club requesting a written update from both – where they were at present with the negotiation and what, in their view, were the next steps that should be taken.

The football club has detailed its position in writing to us, stating that their legal team had written to counterparts at the council last December with a view to moving the development forward, but that they have received no correspondence since.

We have received no formal written response from the borough council to our letter dated April 19.

Council leader Jonathan Nunn has verbally given the Trust an assurance however that a paper about the East Stand development would shortly be going before the council’s cabinet group for approval.

He stated that this would set out the council’s position in the public domain and give a clear green light for the football club to complete the development of the East Stand.

The next cabinet meetings are scheduled for June 13 and July 18 at the Guildhall and the Trust will be sending a representative to these meetings.

Should these cabinet meetings proceed without any movement in the Sixfields East Stand negotiation, we will consider calling a public meeting of all supporters, to which both the council and the football club will be invited, to discuss the matter.

Today’s statement from the club says this is simply a case of the council signing a Deed of Surrender to allow this land to be surrendered from CDNL to the football club. In this case we completely understand the frustration being expressed by Kelvin Thomas and David Bower.

We await any response from the borough council, and remain committed to helping broker a deal in the long-term best interests of the football club.

Thanks

KT just been on Radio Northampton....only caught last few minutes...sounded quite rightly exacerbated towards our inept clueless shambolic council

KT quite rightly said he inherited all this from the inept previous owners and the council (giving 10+ million no questions asked - ie no staged payments etc) and he's just trying to sort this mess out.

The council's respones....

https://www.northamptonchron.co.uk/news/breaking-news-borough-council-hits-back-at-criticism-from-northampton-town-chairman-1-8509308

Hmmm........

I'm not really sure what to think too be honest.

...suspect someone is not being totally transparent with the truth, well spinning it at any rate!

The telling line from NBC statement for me is the bit about retail development.

Hopefully it is now perfectly clear to Hammy and others that KT's main interest was thinking he could do a better job of land development than DC.

Well done the council for acting in the best interests of Northampton, shame many fans on here can't say the same

I hope KT will do the decent thing and hand over his shares and interests to Northampton Group / Trust

Afterall as many on here seem to enjoy telling Beds that there is no investment opportunity in NTFC, so no-one else will be interested

It would be interesting to find out what extra land KT was attempting to get added to the lease.  My guess is the North Stand car park.  Putting both statements together i would assume the council are telling the truth in that KT asked for more land to be added to the document as he states in his statements that the document was sent back with small changes.

“For sale”?
Just what is the going rate for a ‘business’ with league 2 status, a significant wage bill and next to zero assets, not even a Ricky Holmes?
Shouldn’t it be “Free to a good home”?

Good to finally get a public statement from the council.

I was going to say it’s hard to know who is telling the truth but judging by the above few posts clearly it isn’t!

Edit to say, if the council statement is true it is pretty damning against KT & DB!

I’m sure Binley and co are queuing up with their piggy banks.
This one will give the redevelopment thread a challenge at least.

Yes, I'd be interested to hear what land they are claiming he wanted adding to the lease too. I can't see it being the car park as I don't think the council own it (it belongs to English Partnerships, doesn't it?) but either way I can't see KT being naive enough to undermine his position on this by dismissing a land grab for a dirty great chunk of real estate as "small changes".

Wonder if KT would be selling and kicking off to the council if we got promoted instead of relegated....

Bad investment for him and he just wants out.

Yes you are right i forgot that.  I was just thinking of land that was in Cardoza's old masterplan as that was included.  I assume it is just all of the rough ground next to the athletics track rather than just the athletics track.

Sadly after reading both sides I don’t trust any of them.
Too many promises in the past, kick backs and Christ knows what other skullduggery at play.
I think it is clear (was it never?!) that KT and co were not hoping to get a windfall from just finishing the stand and taking income from prawn sandwiches. It was always said the stand would be finished until the Chinese coming along revised the master plan, whatever that was...oh yeah, education.
As KT himself says...hopefully someone local comes along with a few quid and their heart in the club.
To be honest I’m fed up of retail development and the closure of M&S is already just about the final nail in the coffin of a town centre desperate for regeneration.

How the f**k is this going to play out or are we just going to constantly keep going round in circles? I heard a sensible guy from the trust on the radio on the way home from work offering their services to mediate/bring the 2 sides together to try and bang some heads together - I really can't see any other way this can be concluded.

You really do live in a world of absolute delusion. It's astounding.

The way i'm looking at it now is the council have stated that they are bringing the matter to cabinet on the 13th June. The matter they are bringing is the amendment to the lease requested by KT and Bower to include 'further land' that was not on the original lease in question or as KT put it 'Our solicitors processed this within one working day with minimal change and returned the draft Deed to the council’s solicitors.'  So the minimal change appears to be further land.

Anyway
 
If they agree to amend the lease there then happy days and we can see whether KT and Bower are really prepared to move the club forward. 

If the council reject the proposal then we need to know why and what exactly they have rejected. 

The third option is a wall of silence and the 13th June comes and goes and we hear nothing again.  That will really paint the council a bad light (worse than the normal shade of light at present).

I would also like to add that i believe it's in the taxpayers interest to be told exactly what land is being discussed here and what are any amendments to the lease in terms of land or conditions. 

I just wish people were honest in both sides .
KT needs to make his intentions clear both for the club and for himself . If he wants to profit , then fine , let’s all understand that .
If the council don’t trust the aspirations , please say so .
If the council are protecting individuals , this needs to come out .
There needs to be transparency here on all sides .

Spot on.......but I'm not holding my breath.

Agree.

I'd prefer to wait and see what the piece of land in question is before jumping to any conclusions. It might be an area for a retail park, it might be a small path to allow access to the East Stand. Which side of the equation my sympathies lie would very much depend on knowing this essential piece of information.

The interesting part of the Councils response is the part where they claim that KT/Bower have requested more land. Which indicates a DC type situation.

In fact, its precisely the same as it was 10 years ago or whenever it was. New owners 'save the club', spend loads of money on new players, get promoted…then get relegated. Then get stroppy with the council. Fans suggesting marches/protests etc…Grove, whats your availability mate?  :D

Its almost as if the bit in between has been completely forgotten by 85% of our fans, or indeed the whole saga with DC from start to finish!

The only difference is that under DC we saw several artist impressions, which got worse with each one!  ;D With the current custodians we haven't even seen a thing. Not a thing. Yet people are slating the council, saying 'give them the land' etc. Its so ridiculous you can't make it up!

I repeat what I said several months ago. I want to see 'what we are getting' before I would even consider lobbying the council. If the rest of you are happy to chance it then fair enough, thats where Im in the tiny minority.

The meeting on the 13/14th June *might tell us somethings. But I wouldn't be surprised if a deal to sell the Football Club is achieved by that date. The Football Clubs statement today was a total bombshell but not unpredicted. I get the feeling that they want off and the Chinese saga was the last straw.

I said a few weeks ago that I predicted that we will be under different ownership by the start of next season. Unless of course what they are asking is unreasonable. We shall see.

 

Of course KT wants a profit, he didn’t come here for the love of the club. No problem with that.
From memory the initial remit was to clear any debt (excluding the £10m) and finish the stand. Unless something (i.e. the available land) doesn’t allow this to happen then they failed to deliver....you could say over promised.  :P
It is starting to sound like Cardoza all over again, without a police investigation hopefully. At least Cardoza bought us a sh*t architect.
In terms of the council, I don’t think anything which could come out would shock me.

Both parties are unlikely to declare their hands in the way you suggest. The only thing we can assume is that KT as a business man would hope to make a profit. TBH some of your suggestions are a little naive as both parties will only release information suitable to their particular interests. Anything else is wishful thinking however noble your call for transparency is.

Starting to sound like DC Tone, I have been saying that for over a year now, although I am a moaning old git so........

It is the extra land bit but it is the retail bit that would suggest the extra land was not an additional path or room to turn the fire engine round as suggested by Hammy

What bit is delusion then Tom?  That KT will walk away after doing the decent thing and handling his share to someone else like DC did???

Good point.

If its just a strip of land to enable access then that would be somewhat different than it being the West Stand Car Park!

There’s an old saying. “buyer beware”. What a surprise, it seems there are certain issues that prevent KT from fulfilling his business plan? Just wondering why this wasn’t taken into consideration at the time the club was purchased? Perhaps those conducting diligence process missed it? Given that these issues have become high profile, it’s unlikely that they will be missed by any potential purchaser?

In any event, it seems that once again the club is a side issue and inconvenience to the main focus, which is developing the land around Sixfields? Until the model for owning and running football clubs is changed, fiascos of this nature are set to continue. Sooner or later someone will come on board, make some poor decisions and/or take ill considered risks and it will be curtains. We got away with it with McRitchie, we got away with it with Banks, we got away with it with Cardoza. One day soon we won’t, it’s only a matter of time? Unless the next in line is a honourable upstanding, kind and honest individual with the welfare of the club and it’s supporters their sole purpose in life. Oh, and unlimited finances, sort of Jesús with a wallet? Some on here believe they exist, I hope they’re right, I really do.

So....retail development somewhere at Sixfields.....has this been mentioned before??

Taking off your claret tinted specs for a while, do you believe it is ok for KT/DB to sell off "PUBLICLY OWNED LAND" for retail development, and then presumably profit for the sale of that land?

The land may be "controlled" by NTFC/CDNL, but it is owned by the council. I'm sure they'll want a cut, and i'm sure they'll want to see as much of the remainder put into the club as possible...with a minimal amount if anything going to KT/DB.

KT states in a radio interview, when directly questioned by Stuart Linnell, that they have asked for no more land. The Council then issue a statement to say that they have. What the hell is going on??

Sorry to selectively quote but it was a long post   ;D

I don’t think I’ve seen anyone say ‘give them the land’. The only people slating the council are saying sort the conflicting leases, I don’t think anyone on here thinks land should just be handed over no questions.

Just because DC screwed us doesn’t mean KT is as well, he might be but it’s not a given. Things are starting to come out in the open now, hopefully there’ll be more transparency on all sides from today onward.

I have read all of the posts on this issue, and am pretty much in agreement with what you have summed up. With regard to the additional land that KT is after, something that does not benefit the club, nor the council, but definitely does a developer, how about a nice, flat, unused, area, next door to an industrial estate, easy access to the M1. Otherwise known as The Claret car park down Edgar Mobbs Way.
I have no inside knowledge, just purely speculating, a concept that is employed by a lot on here.

This is the Cardoza era plans for the wider land around Sixfields put forward by CDNL

http://planning.northamptonboroughcouncil.com/planning/search-applications?civica.query.FullTextSearch=Sixfields#DOC?DocNo=4387172

Kelvin Thomas on taking over

"We think we're going to spend 4 million pounds in investing in the future, by finishing the stand.."

"David (Bower) probably coming to the end of his property development cycle, and even then probably not on the large scale that was ever going to be required if we were going to entertain the large scale retail and commercial development on the other side of the East Stand".

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/34938496

Interesting then the Council mentioning "proposed retail development" in their statement.

 ;D ;D

On Twitter and Facebook they have, theres loads of Cobblers fans making such comments!  ;D

I don't for one minute…not even 0.1%…think KT or DB are out to screw us. I believe they are totally genuinely. However, I also believe they are 'in it to make a short term profit and run', doing little to improve our ground in the proc ess. Like I say, thats what I believe. Am I happy about that? You bet Im not. A very basic refit of the East Stand and our last chance of profiteering from the associated complex that Sixfield's 'potentially offers'. Id rather that the fans took ownership, or a local consortium of business people with the Cobblers at heart, ran the club at cost, took no risk with budgets, but maximised the facilities from whatever land is available to profit from. I reckon a sustainable mid-top end league1 football club could come out of that within 5 years. No more than that for sure, thats where the big money comes in. But Id be much more comfortable chancing it with 'outsiders' if theres no land grab on offer.

I keep bloody saying the West Stand car park!  ;D

Yes, thats of course what I meant on the 2 or 3 posts I said it on!

One for the armchair sleths.
Wouldn’t any application for land be available via a FOI request? From the original loan (to DC) to the ongoing land battle, the lack of transparency is staggering.

Nice to know im not alone.  ;)

Another minor point.......its one thing to gain control of land, another to build on it......but a totally different one altogether to actually sell whatever is built.

The South gravel car park has been up for sale for how long now? Any takers for this prime piece of land??

Maybe from KTs position they expected the documents to include a certain portion of land and it wasn't in there, so they amended the documents and sent them back.  Thus in politician speak KT would be telling the truth that he hasn't asked for more land as he would only be asking for the land that he believes should be on the lease.  Whilst the council would take the position that KT has asked for more land to be included. 

That or one of them is telling a blatant lie. 

Ahhh, I thought you meant on here, apologies.. I’ve deliberately not looked on social media tbh, usual melting pot of lunatics I’d assume?

I see where you are coming from and I pretty much agree. I just think sometimes on here there is a rush to denounce KT as the same as DC.

Why then has this taken 6 months to come to the fore? You can't amend a legal document....you can query it, go back to the document producer to ask whats what.

KT said that he and his solicitor turned around the document in one working day......no mention of amending anything!!

This is ridiculous now.

f*** it.

When I was a kid, we used to go fishing down Dusson Mill. That area is very prone to flooding. I would suggest that its only use is as a car park. Maybe theres no potential car park magnates out there?

Lack of communication on both sides yet again - feel like we've walked this path many times before.

It does frustrate me that so many of our fans seem to have brushed aside 15 years of this saga and not learned one bit from it. And are out there just blaming the council!  ;D Without even considering that there *might be more to it.

To be fair I don't see anyone comparing the two as individuals, just the situations and it being like ground hog day AGAIN!

I 'turned' after the Chinese 'deal' going bellies up was announced. For a whole host of different reasons. I don't believe the Football Club can be run properly by only half a board of 2 being in the country for just 2 weeks a month, for starters. Yeah, I know all about online communication…my business is a digital agency…but to run a small business effectively, which to all intent and purposes the Cobblers is, needs a more hands on approach at the very top. I won't get personal on here but thats just the start. Anyway, I will still be renewing my season ticket this week!  ;D

From KT's statement


What they mean by minimal change is up for question.  I assumed it meant that they made some amendments.  The council have implied that they made amendments to the land that was to be included in the deal.  KT just said minimal change.

You would have thought that this would have been the only course most of us can follow. Everything else is subject to the usual hearsay and unsubstantiated facts. If it is just a small access path then all this hullabaloo looks a bit silly!

I've never quite understood your love affair with everything I say. But let me just clear one thing up. I quoted the law. I never said that was KT's attempt to either secure or not secure further land.  I just quoted what was in the councils own safety executive notes, and totally contradicts what the council said at the time. It was the council who stated the original distance from the rear of the east that was required, then it was alleged on here that it was/is untrue.

I said way before you ever uttered a word about anything that KT will not develop anything without a return. I equally stated that until I am aware of the situation, I will not commit to an opinion. It will suit some peoples agenda to believe the council. It will suit others to believe KT.

In terms of DC. I can fully understand all of us holding little regard for him. Especially you, as you well and truly got your @rse kicked by him  ;D But to my knowledge, you did nothing more than you have done on this occasion. Namely moan on here.

I believe KT over anything that comes out of NBC.

This isn’t really tricky to deal with at all.
Just give the club to whoever has the £10M. ;D

I'm still leaning that way.... I hope I'm right. I'm only basing that on the amount of times I have seen the council front out some serious lying  ;D ;D

And I'm fairly certain that during one of the Trust meetings he stated as 'absolute fact' that the delay had 'nothing to do with additional land, or developing additional land around the stadium.'

As Monty says, it's a case of needing to know the facts before deciding who's doing (or not doing) what. The Council's comment about 'retail development' sounds ominous, but it could just as likely be a red herring on their part, i.e. not signing land away which the Council itself might look to develop sometime in the future.
Alternatively, the whole Chinese 'partnership' fiasco left a bad taste in the mouth. People purchasing controlling shares in the club, and yet KT never showed willing to acknowledge it as a takeover.

I certainly don't trust NBC, their hands are far from clean in the 'missing ten-millions' saga. Alternatively, they did throw the club a lifeline; although you can make your own mind up as to their reasoning on that one. KT always comes across as a decent and approachable bloke, although you'll never really get too much out of him beyond his 'media savvy patter.' I'm well aware he has the words to appease the masses, but his constant non-speak irks me somewhat. This being said, I'm not opposed to him making some decent money before he vacates the hot seat. But only if the football club's gains are greater.

Anyone's perception of truth is always a variable to someone else's, but the only thing seems clear at this moment: Northampton Town Football Club is once again being used as a pawn in someone else's game; and it appears to be in a dangerous position on the board.

The timing of this statement from KT is weird - Just appointed new manager - just signed a new striker - did they know this was going to be announced ? not sure. Would Dean Austin signed a contract for 2 years knowing KT was wanting out ?? This whole thing is a mess and the sooner the complete incompetent persons at NBC sort this out the better. NBC has a lot to answer for and maybe now is the time to get protesting as I believe the truth needs to come out over the missing money - there are persons in NBC holding info - we need to sort this now !!
If KT cant sort it this club is doomed

I am disappointed by the deaferning silence from the two Tory MP's for Northampton. Surely they should represent their electorate and try and broker a resolution to this disgraceful situation!

I won't hold my breath!

Oh joy, groundhog day again. Round and round and round and round it goes, where it stops no one knows!

One thing is absolutely sure. The whole town centre and surrounding areas, retail, transport and housing, despite the huge opportunities given our home towns location has been mismanaged to a staggering degree of incompetence for decades now. All you who still live and work in Northampton everyday will possibly not see it so clearly but my god if like me you have spent over a decade or more away then return it's quite shocking. Sixfields and the surrounding area emphasises this quite clearly. It's a pleasure to live and work 6000 miles away from it all.

The stalemate will not be broken, too many individuals trying to pick each others pockets. Zero transparency, and buffoons (maybe baboons?) on local planning. Everybody connected to or supporting the club, with the exception of neveright, eventually could see DC for what he was but still 10m smackeroons were handed over to him with less diligence than planning a kids party. I suspect the loan agreement was written in crayon.

I agree with this - if you also factor in the season ticket deadline (great timing that I’m renewing mine today!) this week and the fact that it’s going to be hard for DA to attract any new players with this hanging over the club it is very weird timing.

That NBC is a shockingly poor council there is no doubt. We are where we are in this mess due in the first place to the conduct of the organisation in the maladministration of the loan to NBC.  Of course there may be more to it than the local authority's incompetence alone but 3 years on we are still waiting on that one.  

Against that illustrious body we have our present owners supposedly batting for team NTFC who are as about as transparent as my bathroom window and consistently evade any questions on matters of detail.  Drilling is spot on on this aspect. In trying to decide who are the "bad guys" in this scenario let's not forget that KT was less than open about the foul up he and his partner contrived to make of the invisible investment of the Chinese.  KT only came clean when he was in a corner he could not get out of.  For months he would have us believe all was well with 5USport and many of you, far too many, swallowed his spin hook, line and sinker.

So, now in transpires that  according to the Council what KT did not disclose in his public blast of criticism of NBC is that, if you will excuse the pun, he has moved the goalposts and included in the proposal (note: we know nothing of any substance relating to his proposal, in fact we know nothing of the proposal at all) "further land".  This may be of critical importance. What land and where?  At least KT and DB venting their wrath through the media has forced the wretched NBC to begin to shed some light in the darkness of this cesspit.

On the matter of spin let us not be fooled into thinking that the comments made on the club's website that the owners spent lots of money on the CVA relating to CDNL solely for the benefit of the football club.  Bower and Thomas now control CDNL and therefore all the land that is behind the boundary of the East Stand (yes, it appears to need to be re-drawn due to NBC's incompetence but that should be easily done) is under the control of our owners under a long lease from NBC.  For those of you who have consistently taken a pop at Beds it may just be that he is right on this "land grab" topic, if not his arithmetic. Fortunately, others who post regularly on this blog appear to be alive to the issue but most come across as indifferent.

My take, for what it's worth, is that our owners have demonstrated no desire or intent to build the East Stand for the past 2 years.  The failure of the Chinese partnership from whom the owners were expecting big funds has put the lid on the redevelopment coffin under our present ownership.  But if our owners could get "further land" from the Council then that could possibly have been a selling point to another investor partner. That now looks unlikely.  And for any potential buyer of the club a main consideration has to be the prospect of dealing with a failed council that shares with our owners one common feature, opaqueness.

The devil is in the detail. The question should be whether the impasse is regarding further development other than that of the East Stand? He might be right in that it may not be extra land but land controlled by CDNL under terms organised in the Cardoza era.

A few weeks ago I asked the Trust on here whether to their knowledge the East Stand completion via Bower and Thomas is to be finished by ring fenced monies (£4 million) or to be funded or linked to an enabling development of land around Sixfields?

This is the key issue and stuff is only emerging on it now drip fed by the council. I've said before that it is unlikely that finishing that crummy stand would be payoff for the huge swathes of land that CDNL were submitting plans for under Cardoza. They might have got it through the Council but very little chance it'll happen again.

Again I'd draw you to the quotes below. When I heard it I remember thinking great, these guys don't seem to be interested in the land and have money to go to finish the stand.

Kelvin Thomas on taking over

"We think we're going to spend 4 million pounds in investing in the future, by finishing the stand.."

"David (Bower) probably coming to the end of his property development cycle, and even then probably not on the large scale that was ever going to be required if we were going to entertain the large scale retail and commercial development on the other side of the East Stand".

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/34938496

This is ridiculous.... For about a decade now the football club are saying they can't develop because of land issues and are waiting for the council to resolve and the council are saying the opposite. The East Side of the stadium complex is a complete mess and an embarrassment. The town have lost a great asset with the Athletics track firstly not being looked after and then having 100m ripped up, it now looks derelict, shmbolicand unfortunately represents the town of Northampton.

From the councils statement, and from what others have posted in the past, they are saying that the leases issues don't prevent KT from developing the stand.

Am I missing the point or are the council that KT isn't saying they cant develop the stand as they hold both leases, 1 as fully owned CDNL and 1 as major shareholder of NTFC,m but unless there is only one lease its possible that in the future, possibly under new owners or new partners, that both could lay claim to the building / land?

So yes they have freedom to develop now but would cause a contractual issue in the future?

I don't trust the council one bit but the secrecy / lack of detail from KT means I have doubts there too.

One thing is for sure, I won't be going on any marches or lobbying etc until I actually know what is going on with more detail.

https://www.ntfc.co.uk/news/2018/may/statement_240518/

This is going to get mess(ier)

I will remain unconvinced until I know what this "minimal change" is. This is what seems to be the main stumbling block, so is of overall significance. I feel KT still needs to give us the details of this if he wants us to be on his side.

They are referred to in his recent statement as "slightly amended" and "uncontroversial amendments" - can we be the judge of how slight or uncontroversial they are? 

Good post VC
All we ask for is clarity on either side .
There seems no doubt the stand could have been developed but hasn’t been because KT wants to make his investment worthwhile elsewhere .
I have no isssue with this but can understand why the council has , given everything that has gone on .
In the meantime , the council need to be clearer and act with transparency .

Chairman responds
https://www.ntfc.co.uk/news/2018/may/statement_240518/

Chairman Kelvin Thomas has responded to the statement issued by Northampton Borough Council on Wednesday evening:

He said, “As we set out in our earlier statement the final straw for us was that the Council, for reasons only known to themselves, did not seem prepared or able to assist CDNL in surrendering land adjacent to the East Stand which should never have been granted to CDNL in the first place. The Council suggest in their statement that 'no lease issues have held up the process' but if that was true why did the Council’s solicitors issue draft documentation to correct the position?

“This draft documentation was returned slightly amended by our solicitors on 18 December 2017 since when we have received no response from them. After months of us chasing, our solicitors formally wrote to the Council’s solicitors on 2 May 2018 and said that we were 'surprised and disappointed not to have heard anything from you with regard to the suggested uncontroversial amendments made to the draft Deed of Surrender.' The Council’s solicitors responded on 3 May 2018 and said 'I have raised your concerns with my client and requested some clear instructions on the outstanding points. I am hopeful of getting something within the next few days.' Needless to say, we have heard nothing further.

“The Council misleadingly says that we proposed the inclusion of further land which again is not true. Are the Council suggesting that we wanted CDNL to surrender more land, which is clearly ridiculous. We have only wanted to deal with the area of the club land wrongly included in the CDNL lease. The Council’s own statement confirms CDNL and the club control all the land through various leases, so what possible additional land could they be suggesting we requested?

“We are more than happy for the Council to make this ‘suggested’ request public and show how it relates to the relevant Deed of Surrender. If they are unable to show this to us and the public, then we feel it would be appropriate for them to withdraw that statement.

“We do agree that when David (Bower) and I originally acquired the club in 2015 we did discuss in general terms with the Council the need to make the football club more sustainable in the longer term. The Council’s position was that they wanted the Sixfields site to be the subject of an overall masterplan and we shared this vision. We have since talked publicly about the need for a masterplan, we have discussed this with the Supporters Trust and had various meetings with the Council.

“We have even produced different outline schemes, all of which acknowledge the clear need for benefits to accrue to the club, to the Council and to the people of Northampton and discussed this all with the Council. However, it has to be made very clear that these conversations have been exploratory in nature and not relevant or tied to the existing lease issue. Any suggestion of linkage by the Council is just not true and intentionally misleading.

“Frankly rather than to try and defend the indefensible we think it may be more appropriate for the Council to acknowledge that they could and should have dealt with matters more professionally. It seems to us at this point that the Council’s continual lack of activity merely proves that its reputation for complete inertia remains entirely justified.

“We have now made our position extremely clear in both our statements and we would ask and advise the Council that any information that they put in the public domain is both factual and correct, as our supporters and the people of Northampton deserve better.”

Having read this statement , one side is not telling the truth !
It seems to me the two parties need to get around the table without prejudice and bring things to an open conclusion.
What is there to hide ?

My guess, and its only a guess, is it will be over the boundaries of the land that CDNL own and each side cant agree on the boundaries. That would make sense in respect to the council claims of the club trying to get more land if CDNL are trying to 'give up' land that they (potentially) don't own. That I would assume could then result in a new piece of land having 2 contracts.

Have the Trust seen anything that could clarify?

The Saints are stupid if they haven't tried to get involved in the master plan. This size of land won't come up in Npton again. Build a decent groundshare stadium and/or a back to back and/or build their own stadium with expansion of our stadium. That would be a decent use of the land.

You wanted us to move closer to the town centre because you felt it would be good for both the club and town.
Now you are suggesting the Saints move further away from the town.
Doesn't your logic apply across different sports?

It is an easy observation to make but the state of play in Northampton makes me sad. I am not quite sure where it all went wrong but I am old enough to remember us as a busy market town. Sure Wellingborough Road has never seemed up to much, other than pubs and fast food and the Model Shop but the town centre itself was buzzing.
I drive past the old bus station site quite frequently and that is true testament to what a waste the town is. The terrible decision to build Sol Central in an area lacking footfall, the St Peters Way magic roundabout (actually better now) and crazy rates driving any potential local (and now) big business out of town. It is probably a reflection of wider society in general but you couldn't debate that here!

'Sixfields' sums up the lack of ambition, investment and creativity in this town for a couple of generations.
All Cardoza had to do was build a ******* stand with someone else's money!!

Obviously space is at a premium in the town centre for the size of stadium that would take Saints to the next level. I'd say the benefits would outweigh the negatives for a corporate club like Saints. They played games in MK!

Don't vote Tory.

I don't think there will be much sympathy for NTFC from the wider populace if the perception is that the club that apparently NBC wasted 10 million of it's taxpayers money on is now trying to get land for free when the council is bust.

That's how those who don't know the detail will see it.

From the way KT worded his statement, he seems to me to be suggesting some of NTFC's boundaries need to be extended so as to match the lease CDNL own. The council are so dumb they probably consider this a land grab by NTFC.
The alternative would be for CDNL to surrender some land, so as to match the NTFC lease, and I doubt KT and co are willing to hand land back to the council, especially after paying out to wrangle control of CDNL.

Of course, all of this would become a lot clearer if one or both sides just came out and put their full deck on the table.

Can’t CDNL just sell the lease to NTFC for a £1? You are able to sell leases on.  I know it will leave ntfc with two leases that contradict each other but they can then work to resolve that and any other works on the land should be able to continue.

THIS THE CLOSEST TO THE TRUTH YOU WILL GET....

In the absence of any definitive and gaureenteed benefits set in stone concrete metal and glass for the future benefits of for the Football club of Northampton and its public.. I believe the council have played a blinder.
If theres nothing in it for our club, why are we bothered about any financial benefits to be gained for speculators?
We need the supporters trust on the board that fights the clubs corner and that is objectionable.

Judging from your response, I doubt you read a word of what I posted.

I think you'll find the RFU no longer permit "new" ground share arrangements with football teams so that would rule that out. I may be wrong.

Seems we did the right thing getting out the deal with 5Usport #nopottopissin

https://www.northamptonchron.co.uk/news/agency-that-brokered-cobblers-partnership-deal-takes-chinese-firm-to-court-over-six-figure-unpaid-fee-claim-1-8509407 (https://www.northamptonchron.co.uk/news/agency-that-brokered-cobblers-partnership-deal-takes-chinese-firm-to-court-over-six-figure-unpaid-fee-claim-1-8509407)

Would it be too simple for the council to take back control of the leases, sell off the land for redevelopment themselves and then put some of the money into improving the facilities at Sixfields...which after all they own?

This benefits the town, taxpayers, football fans, football club and enhances their asset...namely Sixfields Stadium.

Cut out the middlemen!!

Sounds sensible, but also too much like hard work for a council who have shown themselves to be lazy, incompetent and completely indifferent to this whole saga (aside from the money they carelessly chucked away).

https://www.northampton.gov.uk/downloads/file/8573/land-at-sixfields---13th-september-2013

The original land sale agreements regarding the sale to County Developments......

And for anyone not willing to trawl through the massive document.....The council sold the land for an initial £1.....the Football club relinquished control of what is basically the athletics stadium footprint to County Developments, who were planning to build up to 300 houses and provide up to 85000 square feet of retail use within the development.

Once things were underway CDNL were to pay the council a further £5 million pounds, plus half of anything over £110 million pounds that was realised from the sale of houses and shops once the project was completed.

I don't see what the football club were ever getting out of this deal.

I can see what they'll be getting out of it now, though - a fair amount of land and no promise for £5M plus half of any profit over £110 million to be handed back to the Council. Which would also explain why the council are not keen to transfer everything over to the club.

This is not quite true. I have checked with KT and it is literally a case of the council having granted two leases on the same part of land. CDNL want to surrender that part of their their lease. Therefore the Club will have the ‘only’ lease on that part of the land.

The extra land comment from the council is not true.

I’m sure this time KT and DB will sell to the right prospective owners to help build the club on and off the pitch leading to a bright future for the club blah blah blah and not just to the first people who wave a pound or yen at them!!

I’m sure of it
I think ::)

KT on BBC radio Northampton yesterday.

Skip to about 2hrs 10mins

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p065z0gs (https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p065z0gs)

All this crap just to complete a stand..

Send in Cecil....She'll sort it!!!!!

No not possible. They have issued a lease, well 2 in fact. They cannot just say we want it back.

Could we turn the East Stand into some form of water park?

Can’t we just knock it down and replace it with a series of duckboards and a bit of rope?

As there are quite a few variations on the 'NTFC FOR SALE' thread is it possible for someone to sort out the essential points from the comments posted. Those comments which are based on a bias to either party should be ignored?

Well all the reports at the time stated that the Council took back the leases in return for wiping out the debt liability from the club.

This is one of them......

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-northamptonshire-34996932

The Council were going to sell off the land and then use the proceeds to pay back the 10.25m.

What happened? How did the land (leases) end up back with the club and CDNL???

The land that was surrendered back to the council is not the same land for which the 2 leases have been granted. The 2 are very different.

Warming up nicely isn't it!

At least we have some close season entertainment.

Can't we just swap with the cricket club? Always thought Sixfields would've been more suitable for cricket. Might have even got some one day
internationals being close to the M1.

Knock the fucking abortion down and get out the Qualcast.

Owzat.

No democratically elected body that does not respond either positively or indeed negatively to a legitimate request has played a blinder - and to suggest so is frankly idiotic and not in the interests of anyone.
This aside any update on these local, non-speculators waiting in the wings you promised us - or they still residing in La La land?

Who can infiltrate the Council to conduct a putsch?

They can if the holders of the lease renege on stipulations laid down in the agreement. Mind you, we are talking papers drawn up by NBC...so probably not. :P

Feel free to elaborate.

I can see this getting very messy...if it isn't already.

I admit it's confusing given all the variables, but looking at the papers Grange just posted it's not quite so straightforward. Setting the actual stadium aside, it looks as though NTFC held a lease covering the area of the athletics pitch, which they surrendered to the council to allow for the proposed development. NBC then issued a fresh lease to County Developments, which covered the athletics area and a significantly extended plot of land.

Here may be the sticking point; NBC will not allow NTFC a lease covering the extended plot offered up to County, and why should they? Or does Kelvin want to hold on to the County plot, but release the athletics area back to the club's control?

And all of this is assuming Pedj knows what he's talking about, and these plots are not included in what was supposed to have been surrendered back to the council. Who knows?

Long and short of it, if KT is simply wanting to surrender the athletics area back to the club, then NBC's current stance makes little sense. But if KT is wanting to hold onto the extended plot - or for NTFC to acquire this plot - then I can sort of understand why NBC are fudging. Sure, he paid money to acquire County Developments, but NBC are still smarting from having their fingers burned.

Kelvin Thomas should just come out and lay plans on the table. Show the fans exactly which area of land this issue covers, and name who will hold leases for this and the surrounding areas. Only then will we fans know which stance to support.

I've been saying for the best part of 2 years (which I know most people disagree with) that we should be shown 'what we are going to get' on the assumption that the council gives KT what he wants. KT's reasoning for not giving out this information - 'we don't want to make promises unless we can actually delivery, unlike the last chairman' blah blah blah simply doesn't wash with me. I think thats bullsh1t basically. Whereas most people are happy with that stance. Id say about 85%!   ;)

I think thats what it comes down to in terms of supporting KT on this issue or not. You are either happy playing 'secret santa' or you want to see what you can win first before trying to score 101 or more with 6 darts!

?

What a f***ing mess.

Cursed.

We always seem to have something to talk about during the summer, don't we?

Reminds me of the last time we were in League 2. Takeover by Indian consortium announced before pre-season then possible liquidation, KT takeover and great but worrying (to start) season on the pitch.

Hopefully, it won't be as eventful this time off the pitch but I'll take the same on the pitch any day.

You are probably right but your summary on the Council is damning in the extreme. They did at least effectively save us!

NBC saved us? Of course they bloody did; it was as much down to their ineptitude as it was the Cardozas' willful shenanigans that we ever found ourselves facing extinction.

(https://media.giphy.com/media/pUeXcg80cO8I8/giphy.gif)

All this for a stand that's a bloody piss-poor design anyway.

Indeed my hope is that by the time this is resolved the club have the money (either through a takeover or injection of money) to pull the abomination down and build a fresh new stand.  I'm very doubtful of that occurring though.

So on the one hand there is a council that can’t sort out a bit of paperwork? On the other there is a council that can put together a loan deal for over 10 million in about the same length of time? The contrast is extraordinary, what changed, how could they be so proactive one minute and so apathetic the next? Oh yes, Mackintosh, perhaps he wasn’t so bad after all, we should bring him back?

The one thing this sorry saga cries out for is face to face communication .
It is in both parties’ interests to resolve this before any more public embarrassment continues .
Surely this can be facilitated

On a separate note I consider myself an educated bloke, well for a football supporter anyway. All this time in and I don’t understand a single shred of what’s going on? When is somebody going to go on the record and explain in idiot proof clarity exactly what the issue is? Since the mud slinging has started what has KT got to lose by not explaining to us poor sods that support the club exactly and I mean exactly what is going on? If there is nothing to hide Mr Thomas and the relationship with the council is in tatters perhaps you could now take it upon yourself to enlighten the great unwashed sir?

I bid MINUS £7.5Million.

Given the many opinions on here it would appear we can’t agree ourselves! I suppose Jolly has given the most plausible account so far?

Yep same.

Its hard to fully back KT until somebody shows the people a location plan of the land in question

As it stands the land the east stand sits on its a massive liability as Buckinghams have claim over it ??

If KT is trying to transfer that land to NTFC and retain the rest for CNDL, free of a the claim from bucks then you can understand the reluctance of the council to do it.

But until we see a plan then we are all guessing

Whether CDNL is part of the police investigation too?

Chron has written that that the Trust "may call a public meeting if movement is not made on the lease transfer at the next two cabinet meetings". This could be read that the Trust are supportive of the lease transfer. Is this the case? Surely the Trust should be calling for full details from both side so that its members and other fans can make informed judgements?

https://www.northamptonchron.co.uk/news/cobblers-supporters-trust-vows-to-call-public-meeting-if-progress-is-not-made-over-sixfields-stadium-1-8509310

https://www.northamptonchron.co.uk/sport/football/thomas-reassures-cobblers-fans-that-off-field-issues-will-not-impact-on-boss-dean-austin-or-his-team-1-8509260

More concerned about the exit of 5USport and what expectations the players had of their investment and how the club was sold.

Just a reminder of the sort of person NBC deem 'fit and proper' to be the leader of their organisation:

A TORY councillor says he will continue with his political career despite being sentenced in court for beating up his wife.
https://www.northamptonchron.co.uk/news/political-career-goes-on-after-wife-attack-1-903254

Northampton council leader's business owed HMRC thousands:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-northamptonshire-37765082

The Tory leader of Northampton Borough Council has issued an apology after revealing he was one of the seven councillors who had to be sent a reminder to pay council tax, because he was "skint."
https://www.northamptonchron.co.uk/news/exclusive-leader-of-northampton-borough-council-missed-two-council-tax-payments-because-he-was-in-financial-difficulty-1-7779179



 

Beat me to it!

I thought that Admin banned blatant political statements on this Forum? Can the  Marquis please clarify if this still holds?

Whilst I agree the forum should not be used for political statements I’m not sure other than use of the word Tory (which is actually simply a fact) why you deem the statement as political.

Big difference in how Jolly worded it compared to yours which was crudely put!

Factual statements, not an indication that it is aligned with the posters own allegiance(s).
It could easily have been a member of a different political party.
Are there similar statements in the public domain that would balance the perceived slant or would that begin to politicise the posts?

Thanks for your feedback

Everbrite you are so Liberal..........whoops censor me!!!

There is nothing political in those articles. They're in the public domain, and have been so for over a decade.

I'll leave you to decide if this constitutes a 'fit and proper' person in the same way KT & David Bower would have been vetted before buying the club.

It’s hardly in line with the thread title. I prefer to read about NTFC issues not opportunistic quasi political comments. Relax the rule and some on here will flood the Forum with similar comments.

Life goes on ;)

You revolutionary you!

Posts such as this would be more paletable if they were balanced by similar incompetencies demonstrated by Labour councillors .

You really are a selective reader - the thread is about NTFC up for sale - the reason KT has given is the non cooperative nature of the council with specific reference to the leader - this alleged non cooperation rightly focuses on the individual who has a history of actions (in the public domain) that rightly question whether he is a fit and proper person to be leading a public body that are in discussions (sic) with our football club.

It is both relevant to the thread and certainly not opportunist or political.

Additionally I don’t understand B&S’s comments on listing labour members lists of transgressions- it’s of no relevance - it’s about discussions with the current council leader - the fact he is a Tory is completely irrelevant.

Why not put them on then? No one can moan about balance then can they?

Cardoza has a lot to answer for on so many fronts. But for me his lasting legacy will be the obvious psychological impact his actions have had on some of our support.

We have a council that is imploding. It has thrown away nearly 80 million pounds of public money. Of which 12 million was handed over to DC. 16 million was ring fenced money for health. 52 million on building that they are now on about moving out of and leasing. With auditors finding bent deals left right and center, with clear suggestion that further criminal investigations will follow. And the first port of call for some on here not to trust, is KT.  ;D ;D

Completely agree!

This effect showed itself when the Chinese took flight, too. Without it, I can only imagine far more on here would have been bashing 5U and feeling rather sorry for KT.

Agree.

Worth clarifying, as I have seen this mentioned a few times now from various people.

It is Northamptonshire County Council that ordered a section 114 (i.e it has gone bust) and has since sold its HQ. It's Northampton Borough Council that is responsible for the loan and the East Stand redevelopment. They are two different authorities.

And yet almost joined at the hip as far as performance level goes, right? ;D

Completely aligned with this post.

I don't align with KT as apart from the whole East stand / development non event is the fact that we are now back in the bottom division with very little improvement to our club despite promises of £4m investment.

Many talk of lack of action / misinformation etc etc from NBC yet totally ignore KT actions and lack of action.

KT doesn't seem capable or willing to improve NTFC in either A: Spending millions on development and players etc  or B: Invest smaller amounts for longer term development and growth, whilst utilising local support, group funding or fan involvment

I just don't understand how he has so much fan support when even on the basic on field matters he has employed 3 managers who have all performed very poorly, has us relegated back to the bottom division with no / little assets in players etc etc

Pretty sure many local people / people on this forum would have done no worse

Yes the councils, both of them, have underperformed, have no plan, no ambition - very much like KT.
 

Absolutely. What I'm trying to demonstrate is the level of ineptitude, dishonesty at all levels of local government/public officials in this town.

The problem isn't what we see.  It is what we don't. Do you trust the borough council?

I think the whole malaise around the football club needs addressing pretty damn quickly .
It’s all very well KT saying the playing side will not be affected but it will be and I would say it already has been .
There is a down beat feeling around the club and that stems from the top .
It was evident KT had lost interest last season for all sorts of reasons . There just wasn’t the vibrancy of previous years .
This has to stop now because otherwise we could spiral downwards and really struggle to recover as a football club .
I just hope the council and our leaders see sense and get around the table to sort what appear to be relatively minor differences on the grand scheme of things .
The supporters have been through enough .

Surely you're mixing up NCC and NBC? Both are naff of course!

Just fed up with the whole shambolic pigs ear that appears to be surrounding our club...

I believe KT's legacy will be arguably the same as many of our previous chairman…'saved the club in many fans eyes', 'had a play', tried to make some money, didn't,  made no progress, fcuked orf. Whilst blaming the council!  ;D

Probably because most people are more balanced in their opinions.

Has he made mistakes? Yes.

Is he the devil? No.

+1

Not sure you can blame KT for relegation this year. Despite the on-going off field problems with SU Sport he still managed to financially back his manager, JFH, with nine new players in the January window.

That the players proved less than adequate and up to the task of keeping us up are entirely down to JFH.

I also don't recall any outcry on this forum when he sacked JE and brought in JFH in the first place. In fact the opposite was true, the overwhelming majority on here were delighted with the appointment.

Ahh yes, very true. But he did take too bloody long to sack him! Which ultimately killed us. If he'd gone with 8 game to go we'd have stood a 50/50 chance I reckon…and thats without hindsight.

Cobblers fans are on the whole pretty fair. The majority it seems are happy to go to matches and forget the off the field stuff which is fair enough. Even under Cardoza the most agitated it got was the We Want Answers campaign which was, in fact, pretty tame.

Thomas and Bower's legacy will be judged probably 5-10 years after they leave. Whatever happens next we have to hope they'll do best by the club and the fans and their next moves will be critical to that.

The easy thing is to blame the manager, not 1, not 2 but 3 managers, 4 if you include DA, who ultimately didn't get enough points, which are all very poor bad managers and all their fault?  I don't think so

So each time it is the manager?

Today Homebase got sold for £1, is it the store managers to blame or the corporate bosses?

The board provide the platform, facilities and overall working environment / conditions to work and perform in.

The state of the ground,  training facilities, lack of development, waiting for NBC, lack of proper player investment and playing strategies have been constant for 10 years with 2 chairmen, at the same time we must have used 350 players and 10? managers. We have had 1 successful season (due in big part to siege mentality) and 1 lucky season to reach play-off final.  

IMHO KT played a massive part in our relegation, as someone said earlier the club has lost it's togetherness. I am convinced that if we had been pushing forward, making plans, everyone committed to the cause, we would never have gone down, but instead we had owners not here, other owners not even speaking, owners then not being owners, owners saying we now can have a masterplan and same owner saying no business case to develop and same owner then blaming NBC for not allowing him to submit planning applications. In the meantime there was almost zero talk about training facilities, Trust involvement, medium term plans etc etc once the Chinese investment went bust.

Are you something to do with the trust?
I really hope not as this looks like a character assassination on behalf of those looking for support in seeking land!
The Cobblers and the nbc will be here long after the speculators have gone.

What makes you say that ???

Im shocked if the trust is going against our local council in support of those who seek 'land' without any offer to our clubs desperate need for some redevelopment .
If this is proved correct then they have gone rogue again and need a serious  overhauling.

good post.

No I spoke to someone from the Trust and it is more a case of a dodgy opening sentence from the Chron. The Trust have proposed a meeting if  there is no movement on the negotiations between the Council and club which is fair enough.

Think they are doing a good job of trying to remain neutral and gain as much info as possible so that's why the tone of that article surprised me.

How do you get 10 cobblers fans into a mini?
Make one a chairman and the other 9 will crawl up into his ar5ehole, leaving 3 seats spare.

Ive a horrible feeling the trust have gome native again and climbed back into bed.
Please tell me Im wrong.

Genuinely no idea anymore what you have against KT Beds. Is it personal?

Nothing personal just bored with his secrecy, inactivity, belittling and constant mithering of our council to give him valuble land leases while failing  to acknowledge our club and its needs.
But other than that, really sound guy.

What if, what if, the leases benefit him and the club?

Belittling irks me. About the only thing we agree on though.

The best thing is to read the statements that the Trust put out, and not believe all the things you hear people attribute to the Trust

What an absolute fcuking mess, the big problem I have is that KT has openly said that Sixfields doesn't need its capacity expanding, but he wants a sweet bankable land deal out of the council.
Kelvin me old duck, they ain't going to give you it, you rubbed a few people up the wrong way.
GAME OVER, #Skint.

....& you support in preference a wife beating, non council tax payer - take a look at yourself please!

So, did any of us win the Euromillions tonight?

You can see why the council are reluctant to help.

They are being mocked for losing the 10 million, yes it was a previous chairman but he was a representative of this club.

I can't criticise the council because we were very lucky to get a loan off them in the first place.

What a load of codswallop, if pushing forward and making plans was relevant to success how come last time we got promoted we were on our arse and didn’t pay any wages for months? Christ there’s some sh!t on here.

You won’t be crawling up his arse Beds, you’re already too far up your own to make it back.

melbourne  you are the idiot mate

Read the posts, moron

sorry chap, made my eyes vomit first time around. Much as I’d like to accomodate your request I can’t subject myself to that again. Morons a bit harsh, but I have to say fair.

so how come we did get promoted? 

Right players, motivated to play to the best of their ability and consistently using the right tactics I thought? Seriously mate, too many clubs have gone into a tailspin having spent fortunes on ambition for it to be the be all and end all. Although I admit it can increase your chances. I just think the former is far more important myself. We went down through achieving the polar opposite to what I am suggesting, IMO anyway.

Personally I just want the Council to do their job they were elected for and make a decision!

They have not said if there is or is not 2 leases on the specific piece of land, why not?

That sounds a little better, but would be more beneficial to get some guarantee from Thomas and Bower as to what our club, the one the trust represent  can expect from any windfall coming from this, should the council grant their every wish..
Bargaining for the good of the club you could say as its their association with our club that will probably  sway the council thinking into handing over land/leases.
Should the club get what I suspect, absolute nothing again, I would like the council to be made aware if handing over unconditional  land leases, this will not be beneficial to their Towns football club.

In what conceivable scenario can you even suggest the council are protecting public money or land 😀😀😀😀

I have questioned for a long time if Bower/Thomas have any real intention of building the East Stand with their money.  I reckon they were looking to the Chinese to come up with the money and when that did not materialise they found the excuse in the CDNL/NTFC boundary error made by the inept NBC.  No sign of the £4 million "ring fenced" to complete the shambles of the East Stand which was apparently promised to NBC on the acquisition of the club and the forgiveness of the embezzled loan.  I think there is a good chance that some of that £4m was drawn-down in January for the loan to the club secured on Ventures' shareholding in NTFC and so ejected the wretched 5USport and has kept the club going this past season.  None of us have seen any drawings, designs, plans for the East Stand because, in all probability, for the reason I give none have ever been commissioned by our present owners.  No sign of the famed Thomas PowerPoint presentation coming to us at any time soon.  The Council is hopeless and incompetent but because of that it is low hanging fruit for Thomas and, undoubtedly, he is currently winning the PR war that has developed into a public slanging match.  It could just be that this suits Bower's and Thomas' purpose well to enable them to exit (perhaps still owning the CDNL land and, therefore, any future potential profit from its sale/development to the exclusion of NTFC) blaming all on the Council.

So, to those of you jumping to the defence of our current owners consider that the Council are not the only ones who deserve criticism. Equally, I would have no confidence in NBC adequately protecting the interests of NTFC and its supporters.

The problem is Vintage.....all of that is entirely hypothetical and guess work.

Guesswork or circumstantial evidence leading to a logical conclusion I leave to readers to decide.

But consider if you would how things would have been different if Thomas had produced plans/designs for the East Stand and consulted on these with the Trust whilst also disclosing what lay behind the effective control of the CDNL land through the CVA and plans for that area comprising the old running track area and beyond. Would the Football club share in that enterprise and was this the jewel in the crown for our absent real owner, Mr Bower?  With supporters on board for the completion of the East Stand and wider redevelopment things would have been so much better and even an incompetent local authority might have got off its backside. 

The reality is that supporters have been excluded and not included at all.  The situation is summed up by Thomas' refusal to allow supporters representation on the board so enabling the representative(s) access to full information.  Thomas has been secret and opaque and manipulated the media and many supporters to his advantage.  He is a shrewd operator.

 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

I'm not sure what it is they are trying to protect, but its something. The fact (I think I can call it a fact) is that they drafted a deed of surrender which KT didn't quite like, so he proposed some amendments - The Council didn't like these amendments so didn't agree. So whatever they are protecting, I conclude (rightly or wrongly) must be in these amendments. Anyone know what they are? KT can win me over if I like them - but without any knowledge of what they are I'm staying firmly on the fence.

This is as close to the truth as I have read on here.

Perhaps they don't like their share of the winnings Tel, it's not as though the council are under scrutiny now is it   ;D ;D ;D

How do you know?

Read the councils statement for a starter for 10.
Do you really think that the council can let KT and DB developed the surrounding land without due diligence being seen to be done?
KT has stated he isn't going to increase the capacity of Sixfields.........do you think he's going to offer the council half the profit from the land deal  ;D

Nope.

I just think someone needs to play devils advocate a bit in certain instances.

All this debate could be stopped by KT and Bower coming out with the plan of the 2 leases where the problem lies being put out into the open and also their plans for the land. If they have nothing to hide why don't they do that. At this stage I wouldn't want the council to sign off on anything until we know exactly whats in it for the club and the town. I am sure none of us mind KT and Bower making something of the surrounding land, as long as we get a positive benefit for the club and its future. Surely it is not that difficult to put into plain sight where the problem lies with the leases and what we get for it!

The solution is that the two leases are merged and the single tenant is NTFC. That would avoid the issue of our owners having two bites of the Sixfields apple. If any future redevelopment of CDNL held land produces a profit Bower and Thomas would benefit with the increased share price of their shares in Ventures which in turn own 80%+ of the shares in NTFC.  But I very doubt that is on their agenda. 

There's zero chance of that, they will exit the second the money hits their bank.
For those that keep asking what the plan for Sixfields is, KT HAS STATED ON RECORD THAT HE WILL NOT INCREASE THE CAPACITY OF SIXFIELDS.

Vintage absolutely echoes my beliefs.

Those who are banging the anti council drum are kind of missing the point. Because that isn't the point. I *think everybody on here knows that the council are pretty dam useless!  ;D HOWEVR. Them being useless doesn't address what the *motives of KT and Bower really are. That is a separate issue.

Until they show their hand, what the plans are, what their medium term intentions are etc…then they are not going to get my support on the issue…

…which I don't think they will. Because I think their plans are simple. Or were simple. They 'were' to do a basic refit of the East Stand and make a nice pot of cash on the side. Leaving NTFC with no future potential gold mine from the land whatsoever. I think their plans are now even simpler. To cash in their chinese chips and get shot of the club asap before they have to start carrying the wage bill again once the season ticket money has drained away. If they are still here in a few weeks you can add the sales of a few players to go with that. I believe they are now speedily executing their exit strategy, using the council as the perfect pawn to do so in order not to lose credibility.

So far its working but slowly…just like 3 years ago…the masses are catching on.

Of course I may be completely wrong. If I am I can't wait to admit it because that would mean our football club is safe in their hands. But there isn't a single jot of evidence so far to dispel my fears.

Absolutly spot on Drilling.

Pretty much everything KT has done so far at the club will pale into insignificance with his next moves. If he is to repay the trust given to him by a lot of fans, maintain good relations and prove himself the football man he was described as on taking over then he will do the best by the club and fans. Fingers crossed.

I don't want to say too much on this subject, but the only thing I will say is Chris Wilder said the club will be in safe hands with KT as chairman. I hope he was correct in saying this and not just covering his own back at the time just to get the deal done for the sale of the club.

CW was the one who contacted Kelvin in the first place, if people can remember, and then was so passionate about the deal being done with that famous speech thats gone down in history.

With things the way they are now I think that the ball is in KT's court. What does "normalising the leases" bring to the football club? Does this purely mean we might get a completed East Stand within the shell that's already there?

I watched a video yesterday when KT was filmed the day after taking over the club....he outlined his plans for the East Stand.....boxes, lounges and possibly a conference centre on the back....is this still the case?

To all those slagging off the council and saying "get it sorted"......get what sorted? How do you see the club ultimately benefiting from any deal? Or do you just want something better to look at over on the East side of the ground?

Will you be happy if retail and housing or whatever else was proposed for the Athletics side gets built...yet nothing comes from that that benefits the club?

Kelvin....show us your hand, show us what you are trying to achieve, show us how that will benefit the club, because ultimately that's all that 99% of us care about.....whats in it for NTFC?

No reason why KT shouldn't tell us his plans now. Bit ridiculous.

I understand people asking for KT to release the lease details that he would like changed, but we should remember all of this will be tied up in a non-disclosure agreement (NDA).  It was telling in his statement that he said that he was happy for the Council to release the details, basically releasing NTFC for the NDA, but unless the council also agree to go public then he can't release a single detail that is covered by the agreement.

We shouldn't mistake being bound by an NDA as being the same for deliberately wanting to keep them in the dark.  NDA's are pretty standard around these kind of discussions, even in my line of work i sign a couple of month and my discussions are nowhere near as sensitive as this.  It would be great if the council release what KT has given them permission to, but in all honesty I doubt they will.  The council are in defence mode at the moment.  Their fear of further upsetting the voters is resulting in major inertia.  If the sixfields scheme can be interpreted as damaging the town centre, then they probably don't have the bottle as each councillor is protecting their seat and need every vote they can get.

My gut is that the council is the blocker.  I also guess that at least £1m of the magic £4m has already been invested into the club with day to day running costs and the improvements they have already made.  We should let this play out before we throw KT under the bus.  Having met him personally and discussed the club and plans, I think he is pretty genuine.  It seems fair enough to me that he wants to use profit from enabling development to fund the NTFC improvements.  Surely this is a win/win?  Why would we be against that?  He is a businessman, and he wants to make money whilst also improving us.  I don't have a problem with that.

No-one is 'throwing KT under a bus'. Just some reasonable fans asking some reasonable questions.

You mention using enabling development funds to pay for improvements at the ground.

Again I'll point you to these KT comments on taking over...

"We think we're going to spend 4 million pounds in investing in the future, by finishing the stand.."

"David (Bower) probably coming to the end of his property development cycle, and even then probably not on the large scale that was ever going to be required if we were going to entertain the large scale retail and commercial development on the other side of the East Stand".

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/34938496

Which is it?

And this is the issue, isn't it? People are rushing to slaughter the Council, but until our owners decide to set out all of the facts it is ridiculous to pick a side. Personally, I suspect my earlier post regarding differing boundaries within the two leases is the real issue (sticking point).

I'm not sure I follow this.  What NDA are you referring to and what would it cover?  The land is owned by the local authority and so is in public ownership.  Why the secrecy?  Any planning applications would immediately be in the public domain. There is nothing on record anywhere I can see where KT has said he wants to use profit from enabling development to fund NTFC improvements.  In fact, KT has nothing of any substance about any development.  So how can it be a "win, win" situation when we are kept in the dark.  What you are doing is asking us to place our trust in KT based on a conversation you have had with him.  In other words and here we go again, you are expecting us to join or rejoin the "in KT we trust" brigade.

The Council sold the lease on the land in question to CDNL for £1 (one pound sterling), and this includes the athletics track area which the club had surrendered as part of that deal. The Council did this on the basis they'd make millions on any returned development, a plan which went tits up once CDNL went into liquidation.
As I stated previously, if KT is just looking to surrender to NTFC the plot formerly used by the athletics club, then I fail to understand the Council's rigid stance. I suspect the issue is that he is trying to include more of the land held by CDNL to the NTFC lease, and the Council (having already been shafted) have no wish to be shafted further.
The Council will only profit from developments carried out by CDNL. If developments take place on a plot owned by NTFC, then I doubt the Council will see a bean.

I'm still on the fence  ;D

I'm firmly on the fence until there are more details. Impossible to choose a side at the moment.

Interesting post by Jolly but what Thomas has said is that the Council granted 2 leases with overlapping boundary lines which need to be corrected.  Fair enough and that shouldn't take long, even for NBC.  A cock-up by an incompetent council for sure but I doubt that the mistake relates to the sizeable area of land to which Jolly alludes.  

As many are now saying, it is time for complete transparency by both our owners and NBC.  All their reputations are on the line.

Excluding the stadium from this discussion, NTFC hold a lease for the area which was formerly the athletic ground. CDNL also hold a lease for this plot of land. This is the only area I can see where there is an overlap. I still suspect KT wants to release some other area of the plot held by CDNL back to NTFC, thus making defunct any prior development agreement between the Council and CDNL. If this isn't the issue, then I honestly can't see where else the Council have a problem.

Thanks for that, Jolly.  The running track is a sizeable area of land so it is staggering that NBC should foul-up so badly. 

It all comes down to the intentions of the parties and they are both observing radio silence.

I'm doubting this. Why wouldn't KT tell us this if it was true? I don't think he'd pass up another opportunity to put pressure on the Council and make them look like the bad guys.

I for one am confident KT and the board are doing the best they can for the club within the limitations of what is sensible for him and his family. I don't think he is looking to sell the club down the tube as the previous owner nearly did and will look to see us in safe hands if he is to sell.

The board made funds available to try and have a decent season in League 1, I don't think many would have predicted what a shocking nightmare the managers would make of the resources to hand.

It must be a nightmare to be an owner of a football club, looking at the comments on this message board why would anyone want to take on the club and take the flack that comes when in all likelihood KT and the board are doing the job with what looks like one hand tied behind their back by what we all know is a corrupt and mismanaged council. Why anyone believes the council above KT is beyond me and of course everything can't be played out in public, very few private companies or football clubs do that.
 

They are both as bad as each other punk. Cmon even KT said he was responsible for this season

No I have a brain, two ears and two eyes and I use them. Unlike you.

I'm 60% sure this club will be in the conference within 5 seasons aimlessly because the town of Northampton will eventually drag it down.

KT and his group have proposed multiple options for developing the land around the stadium from retail to offices, distribution sheds etc etc. They have also provided proven funding of £ millions.

The sole blame for this sorry situation lies with NBC and its complete and utter ineptitude.

After reading most of the comments on here I agree with a few wise heads and prefer to await how this situation develops or even clarified. Imo I will be surprised if either party reveals the facts but merely privately come to an agreement.

As Ive said before, you are without doubt the most intellectually challenged person to post on here, this post underlines  this.

Yep, no reason to take sides until more is known. 

It would be helpful if you would back up your claim that KT has proposed multiple options for developing the land around the stadium with some evidence. I can't recollect reading about any definite proposals and supporters haven't even had sight from KT of any plans, drawings or designs for the East Stand. 

This goes to the heart of this debate since those critical of Thomas assert that in time at the club, so far as off-pitch matters are concerned, there has been no progress on the East Stand or any wider redevelopment.  As I and others have said, NBC is far from blameless but Thomas' is in the driver's seat and he is driving us where?

Glass half empty then  :'(

Can you provide links to all these grand plans, and where is the proven funding of millions. ive seen no evidence of either

soooo....  thats a new one........ 

We will be non-league in 5 years due to NBC !!  Despite having a (iYHO) a fantastic chairman / board who wants to invest millions to NTFC benefit.

You really could not make it up !!!

Was the part of Calderwood's 5yr plan?

I get the feeling that Clarky's hypothesis involves the fantastic chairman/board and millions not staying around too long because of NBC. And you can't really argue with him on that one.

.

That's the first I've heard of KT proposing retail, offices, distribution etc I've not heard one word in public from him mentioning this.

Before we got relegated I was joking KT will sell up and leave (nothing to do with Council)

Anybody else think he just wants out generally (bad investment after relegation) so is cutting his losses but whilst doing so hiding behind the smoke-screen of the mess that is the East Stand and blaming the council. Nobody has mentioned us being relegated as a possible reason why KT wants out.

Maybe it's a combination of both....

You'd think the law of averages would tell you that it will be more difficult to sell sponsorship in league 2 than it was in league 1, season ticket sales will be lower, outside revenue in general will be lower.  This must come into the mind of someone who is in it to make money.
Would we sell 18 executive boxes for League 2 football? Would we pack out the lounges every other week?

I don't know about him using the council goings on as a smokescreen.......just coincidental timing I'd guess. Lets not forget that Bower injected over a million into the club in January.....that was basically peed up the wall by JFH.......both KT and DB would naturally be asking themselves whether it is all worth it!

The truth is we just don't know.

And not knowing is a challenging concept for most these days. They would rather fill the gaps with noise, than wait and see.

There's no way they will walk away, Bower has just ploughed 1.5 m into NTFC Ventures FFS.

Isn't that the whole idea of an unofficial club forum? It's meant to be full of half-truths, dodgy rumours and bickering.
I love it all

It’s a good job everyone doesn’t adopt that attitude....this place would be even quieter than ever if we were only allowed to talk about stuff we knew!

It's quite simple. I ask the club questions, they answer.

I'm not anymore ITK than anyone else could be if they got in touch.

That is too simple for some though, doesn't fit their conspiracy theories.

We haven't had a good old fashioned 'wait and see' since.... Cardoza, and boy did we get to see🤣🤣

What... Don't chat shyte? Yeah let's hope that doesn't get adopted as an attitude..  ;D

Speak for yourself.

Well, apparently you are more ITK than just about everyone else, given that you said:"KT and his group have proposed multiple options for developing the land around the stadium from retail to offices, distribution sheds etc etc. They have also provided proven funding of £ millions."

Just got back from holiday and catching up on all the statements now...

To me this seems like 2 separate issues
1. Who owns the leases and their boundaries
2. What other developments there are other than the East stand

I don’t see how the first affects the second like the council are suggesting, Thomas & Bower technically own the leases for both NTFC land and CDNL now (I think?) so in theory if they followed the right processes for planning and development and it got approved could go and build a hotel, garden centre, gym etc either way. Likewise if the council didn’t like what they were proposing, they could reject approval on either plot

The issue seems to be more around the fact that part of the land is on both leases, and potentially that some of the land KT and Bower want on the NTFC lease still is on the CDNL plot. This can’t be a difficult issue to sort surely? Either way 6 months+ to reply is deliberately not being cooperative

I can see 100% why KT and Bower don’t want to spend a penny on that stand until this is sorted, if their investment was over 2 leases that could cause major problems further down the line with selling the club, further developments, access etc

Admittedly I don’t really understand it all but that’s my take having a read through and I’m struggling to see why people are criticising KT other than ‘not revealing the proposed plans’

If the council made the deed with the NTFC amendments on public it would make things so much clearer

Can't ever see a time where finishing that atrocious East Stand (not even a complete new build remember) will be seen as fair payoff for development of that huge piece of land that Cardoza somehow got hold of.

This is where I get even more confused than usual. Didn't the club hand pack everything beyond what was the 100 metre home straight of the running track behind the east? This was to allow the council to develop that themselves so they could write off the 10million from the clubs perspective.

Or is there another plot of land that was handed back and the land beyond the near side of the track is still on these leases?

If it was fitted out with lots of boxes and large bars in a warm space, cladding finished off with large club crests and any capacity increases built up behind the seats at both ends, all done in manageable stages.. we would be left with a pretty decent must visit ground.

 ;D ;D. No one on here knows. You might as well stand on the Junction 15A bridge and ask the traffic.

Someone , somewhere within the council is hiding something or protecting someone .
This can only be the case otherwise it would move forward .
The lack of transparency is a disgrace . This is a public authority we are talking about here .
When is this going to be exposed ?

this was my understanding too.....the club relinquished all the leases apart from basically what is the stadium footprint. The Council made a big deal about a) taking back the land to sell off for development themselves and recover the £10.75m that way, and b) take legal steps to recover the £10.75m by chasing the "culprits"

They've actually managed to do neither so far!!

So if that is the case what land do people suspect KT&DB of trying to grab, what other development is  there to be done?

I just wish either the council or KT would post a plan showing the leases and who owns what, we could then know which one of them is telling lies about the set up at the minute it is just a complete mess with neither side looking to clever.

Because I asked what they had proposed and what funding was available you doughnut.

Yeah, right. So he isn't prepared to put anything in the public domain, and yet a complete stranger emailed him and he was upfront with all the plans. Perhaps you could enlighten the masses as to exactly what the development deal is beyond the East stand? And while you are at it, can you also clarify the boundary issue, and explain whether the stand will be finished using ring-fenced funds, or will the money need to come via further developments?
C'mon, big man. Now's your chance. Explain yourself.

....as said before - because it suits their conspiracy theories.

I defy anyone to clearly state the issue in it's entirety but seems clear to me this is not a "land grab" exercise and anyone who has ever purchased property or land leasehold would be totally bonkers not to get the necessary legal clarification & release of overlapping agreements before investing in infrastructure improvements.

 For me the council is rotten to the core and definitely frustrating the lease issue - it is run by a man who is unfit to be in public office, and as a body have proven themselves to be incompetent time and time again.

Overall I tend to believe KT on the lease aspect - he is not however in my opinion blameless and although you have to be careful what you promise (to unreasonable football fans) when you are not in full control of the situation more transparency on his actual intentions would definitely help his PR standing for the majority - of course the vitriolic minority will always hold to their opinion irrespective of facts or well intentioned shared plans.

Yeah... Fcuking tell me everything you know, or you will have to deal with the consequences of my total disappointment in you..  ;D ;D ;D

True. But he's the one claiming to know all the answers, so why not actually disclose some facts to his fellow fans? ;)

 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

KT's group signed a Memorandum of Understanding with the Council as part of the takeover deal. But from what I can see, NTFC had already surrendered the leasehold on the athletics area as part of the expansion deal between NBC and CDNL, so I assume the MoU concerned land to the other side of the stadium. Maybe the car parking areas?
As Cobblerwatch says, it probably isn't so much a land grab, as more a case of untangling an already tangled web.
Kelvin's group now hold the leases which NBC sold to CDNL for £1 (this includes the athletics area). They seem to be trying to revert control of the athletics plot to NTFC. A sticking point could be that they are trying to hand additional land to the club (although this seems unlikely). Just as likely an issue could be that NBC is feeling peeved by how the former deal went sideways, and they would like to stifle any future actions in the name of CDNL.
If this is the issue it would seem petty, given that KT and company are nothing to do with the Cardozas. But petty and NBC often go hand in hand.

The council statement gave you a clue to what is going on, they mentioned at the start of their response that they usually don't conduct commercial business in public, get it now?
There is a big proposed commercial deal going on with an out of town development next to Sixfields (PTS)

So... There's been no interest from the much touted "local consortium" that have been waiting patiently in the wings for a chance to leap at this potential powerhouse of football.

Equally, the club appears to be coping quite well with the deluge of interested parties  ;D ;D

So what we are looking at, is a potential investor, who needs to maximise the revenue of the club by getting what he/she can from the council. Or at the very least just clarification IN WRITING that they won't have the carpet pulled from under them when they do suggest something.

The last one sounds familiar. 

And you know for sure that the clubs up for sale or was that a threat to get land deals sorted quicker ?
Yes everything has a price, one fair and one not, which one are we being touted for, if any?

As for the council, if they deem the benefits to our football club to be negligible for the amount of land and its value being demanded, (again in the absence of what it is they want and what our club hopes to achieve) I hope they NBC, stand strong and use the land to benefit the town in a better ways.
Not one blade of grass #nobog  😂😂😂😊

The club as always been up for sale. For many years the price for this sleeping giant  ;D was very affordable. And in my opinion is now. Perhaps if you are interested in the going rate, you could ask your local consortium to test the water (I'm sure they have already) and come back to you with a figure. I should imagine they have already expressed an interest. As you have said. We are only talking a few million here and there to develop the ground. With an additional, what? 5 10 20 30 million to get us into the championship. I mean.. who wouldn't bite their hands off?? 

As for your allegiance with our oh so functional and honest council. I can't imagine anyone is surprised that you have jumped into bed with them.

It would be irresponsible of owners to sell up a football club when there's so much more to gained from the land it stands on these past 15 years..??? Sell the club independently and keep possession of land parcels/ leases??? At least that way it might give the club a chance to grow even without any enabling from its land.
I wish the council would stop attracting property developers/land acquirers/speculators etc with unconditional sales of £1 land parcels 😂😂
I still haven't got a clue whats going on other than 'not very much'😂

So after all the pie in the sky ideas you've come up with... Your sales pitch, is a struggling club, that can't raise much above 5k crowds 90% of the time. With a leasehold ground and an uncooperative council holding the cards.

I can't imagine why anyone wouldn't buy into your vision.. I can see how we are a much more attractive proposition than Charlton, Plymouth, Bradford, Portsmouth, Bristol Rovers, Luton, Coventry, Port Vale. Once you dig below the surface, you just get hot air. Every time.

You can only sell something if someone wants to buy it.
The current value must at worst be £0 and at best far less than KT and co would want. It’s posturing and they’d be cutting their losses.

But but but there are loads of people forming lines to buy a football club.

Name one club that hasn't secured an owner😉
There are many good ones out there and some shiite ones also.

We've secured an owner. It's just you and a handful of others dislike lhim. With absolutely no good reason, other than he won't bow to you. All the ones that give home a hard time, are those that struggle with anybody they can't get a reaction from.

I'm sorry if KT thinks I have belied his confidence in saying this. But he has sat in person and told me he will not be called out on here. I doubt he ever views it.

My view Nigel is that he's a chancer. Nothing more nothing less. He wants to make a few quid for him and his mates. The fruit machine won't pay out, he now wants out. In my opinion! The alternative is that Bower covers a massive wage bill next season and 'we go again'. Will he want to do that? I bloody well doubt it. We shall see Sir. But Im (in the main) with the other liar!  ;D ;D

Pretty much anyone taking over at NTFC when they did was going to be a spectulator/chancer and or property developer. The chance to take on a club which had been mismanaged but with potential at the right end of a promotion charge, accessing at least 11 acres of land not including CDNL element all for a pound.

Clearly a pound is never that straight forward but even adding in the tax bill and unpaid wages it appeared to represent a good opportunity for someone. It just happened to be KT et al. Did they think it would be quite the tangled mess including a relegation? I very much doubt it but it is the Town way unfortunately.
I doubt that anyone would have considered the Chinese factor on top of the JFH and ongoing NBC issues.
 Under their stewardship no doubt but who realistically was the alternative at the time of peak crisis?

I still hope for a brighter future and good football. Deluded probably but it hasn’t stopped me coming for over 30 years.

Greater clarity on all the relevant points would be good but I won’t hold my breath.

Euromillions ticket tonight then I’ll step in.

The very best of luck Zen. (my new bestest pal ever)

If it wins that is and not sharing. Jackpot only.

I disagree but our agreement or otherwise is of no consequence - the real question is are there tangible alternatives?

Yes, we have Beds' parody like suggestions - which actually become more clear in their lack of reality given the current situation (he does not seem to want to expand on this list of wealthy local potential owners waiting in the wings).

I have zero confidence in our council (Due to their proven incompetence), and some confidence but with a caution in our owners (mainly due to limited transparency) - I can speculate & suggest all sorts of alternatives but they have no bearing on the future of our club.   

The perfect scenario for me would be for a local consortium, preferably fans of the club, to take over and forge a good working relationship with the council and maximise growth opportunities from the land, taking zero profit for themselves.

The issue is that the football club is surely going to lose a lot of money over the next 12 months due to a rapid increase in costs and lower income as a result of relegation. Got to be circa 1million quid, and thats based on a wage bill that is massively higher than it was 2 years ago when we were breaking even. Of course some of that could be recouped by selling players.

I've been drumming the same point/s for the last 3 months, basically since the Chinese went awol. With KT at loggerheads with the council over the land and those issues not looking likely to be solved any time soon, a re-appointed main money man (Bower) who lives 1000's of miles away and is in his 70's and one can assume 'doesn't want to be here' (he's already flogged his shares once!), and a hefty loss on the horizon, the sooner the Football Club is under new ownership the better.

Of course any sale is likely to be very complicated due to all the various leases etc which in itself could cause a big problem. I guess time will tell how desperate KT is to cut his losses…hand the lot over and walk away for a £1 and he may find someone. Ask unreasonable sums of money and he could be here for some time! Personally, if I had 100 plus million in the bank Id offer him a quid and all the paperwork he's got and take it on. I wouldn't pay him any money for it, thats for sure!

I cannot disagree with anything you say here - but that perfect scenario requires that local consortium & I really have no confidence it exist - if it does and they truly want no profits for themselves one has to understand without land deals and other spin off benefits running a successful football club is a very expensive business and absolutely no disrespect, but a retired MP and a local estate agent (for example) are unlikely to have the capital to support such a venture that takes a football club anywhere near where we would like to aspire.

No guarantees but I think you either have a cozy non aspirational lower league club with the set up you suggest or you dance with the devil (the money men) and have a chance with the big time - unfortunately we seem to have got the worse of both worlds bar one season in the last 10 years plus.

You have to accept the only likely scenario where this could happen, is if once again an owner walks away. Everyone knew the score when KT come in. Surely they had to know what the attraction was. That's why I find it inconceivably dumb that a few people on here are shocked by his intentions, and also keep ramming down our throats that he is in it for the money. Don't they know that they are the only ones who are surprised by that. The issue isn't whether or not he makes money. It is whether or not he is willing to fund the club to grow and prosper as well. Now... None of you know the answer to that. If you say you do, you're talking b*llocks. Not one of us will know that until something is built, makes money, and we see where the subsequent profits go. . 

Equally I am amazed by the sudden onslaught of support for our council. Putting aside what Cardoza did with the money for one moment, let's look at the fight he had on his hands with the council for countless years. I lost count of the amount of times he demonstrated how willing they were to lie through their teeth. Tony Clark shamed them on several occasions as well. We even saw them stumbling for the truth and clearly being evasive and dishonest in public meetings. But all of a sudden, the council should be trusted on this hand picked point. Just because it suits an agenda that hasn't even been put to the test yet. 

I couldn't give a flying fcuk "if" KT said he has 4 million quid put by. It got him the lease. It would have been the exception rather than the rule, if he had not used some form of coercion to achieve his initial objective. The fact that the same people are shocked by this. Doesn't indicate additional acumen on their behalf. It displays a lack of insight into how big business operates.

Whoever ends up as the chairman/consortium that runs NTFC, they will get hammered on here. Because there is no such thing as a good working relationship to forge with our council. The council is limping into oblivion. Bolstered by hired guns, and drenched in ineptitude. Optimistically, you would have to say we are years away from seeing a functional council in this town. Let alone one that is willing to wipe the slate clean and forgive NTFC. I can't even find a friend or colleague (unless they support the cobblers) that thanks we deserve anything.   

Why do you insist that we need the NBC to kick start progress in any way?
Why the ### should they?
 has there ever been such a needy weak club as us?
 right across the board fans trust boardroom..we are all guilty...
Embarrassing.

Best posting on the board this month......................................(I know it is the 1st June!!)

Beds- Yawnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn.

I agree with Hamster the council have always been 'difficult' for the football club to deal with. This goes all the way back to proposed stadiums at Brackmills and other sites that were discussed in the 70's & 80's. We finally had Sixfields built but still play in a 1990's ground now because of various failed attempts to improve it by Cardoza & now Thomas. The only reason we were granted the £10 million was because of dodgy dealings - no other reason. I am fed up to the back teeth of it all and it goes all the way back to the late 70's when I started supporting the club and maybe even before that.

No to be frank you are embarrassing and no friend of my football club - whatever the complex ins and outs of this argument it’s unlikely the council are completely right or wrong - as is the case with our current owners.

Your blinkered view shows you to have lost the ability to make any considered comment and you have zero credibility - but more importantly (as a man with absolutely no credible executable solution) your approach and attitude actually hastens a possible end to our football club.

I don't. You made that up  ;D

If KT is just in it for the land and to make a few quid off the back of it, why pump all that dosh into the squad? I would have thought money for that inconvenience would be kept to a bare minimum? For the argument to make any sense it would be worth establishing what the land in question is actually worth? If it is true that the opportunity to kop the land for free is the motivation for the current board, then why spend a fortune on the squad, managers and the East Stand (if it happens) when you could buy the land for half the money and fulfil your development aspirations? The conspiracy theory of the free land grab only works if you can establish what the land is worth, and whether all the complexities and costs of running our football club are worth investing in to get it for free? I personally have no idea what the theoretical land in question is worth in comparison to the money spent by the board so far, but I’m guessing not? Anybody fancy having a punt at establishing the facts, or are we just going to continue to rely on more hysterical hand wringing from the conspiracy theorists for possible scenarios?

Thats right. having pumped god knows how much into the club in January and he will now be prepared to walk away for a £1 is quite simply in cloud cuckoo land.

Even if he agrees to sell does not mean he will wipe out the debt to him and his partner, This local consortium have to be prepared to front up circa £4 million if they are serious. This should not be a problem if the business plans flouted on here are are viable.

 Time to put up or shut up if a serious proposition.

Im several pints deep and going to Camden rocks tomorrow so I need to keep lid on.. but What I will say for yours and cobblers watch benefits, both cardoza and thomas have been 15 years at our club now and collectively added nothing in terms of real growth in their  pursuit of unconditional land and leases and god only knows what else.. because no one does..
Why in the name of all thats sacred should Northampton borough council bow down to this lot who haven't had the decency to show the clubs supporters what we can expect for our club??
Thomas needs to make a massive about turn and start working openly with the supporters and town of Northampton into what WE want because as a lone ranger he will fail.
#nobog
Its probably his last chance to get the f on side.

You still seem to be entrenched in the same misconception that the council need to give him something. Once again, you have built that alter, and appear to be one of a very limited group preying to it. That's your illness in terms of Kelvin getting the better of you again...

If they stand to make or need nothing from council, why does he keep badgering them for more land?
Your point is I think is they took unconditionally  control of some Sixfields  land after the council sold it all for a pound, this is their land now and nothing to do with the little inconsequential football club and they want the boundaries drawn up with ours and yours fences seperating the two?

Yes your're right , I and everyone else are still entrenched in the same misconceptions with just about everything that happens over there.. clarity please😉😂

Getting back to the general point of the thread, with a sensible budget the club could tick over in League 2 as a member-owned entity. League 1 too with good management. Or a mix of member-owned/private investment.

Solidarity payments from the Premier League are solid and cash flow should be pretty healthy with our gates. What we are seeing now is probably what should have happened around the time of the last crisis in terms of discussion of a way forward, although there was little information available about the true terms of how the club stood.

.Whether the club and land can be separated now is another matter.

My perception is that they are not badgering the council for more land:
They already have the land but CDNL's name (Bower/Thomas) is on the lease/ownership.  They want this land to be absorbed/combined so that it comes under the one lease/ownership of NTFC, with similar enabling restrictions and allowances that NTFC has.  It then saves them from having to receive permissions twice when carrying out any work.  If and when they eventually decide to sell/move it on, it can be done as a complete package and not in two or more parts with the complications that would bring.
Am I wrong?

I believe there are two leases, one owned by NTFC and another by CDNL.  Both leases cover some of the same ground due to a mix up. That’s where the issue is and what they are trying I get sorted out prior to the transfer of the lease over to NTFC.

I have not seen or heard anywhere of Bower/Thomas' intentions to transfer the CDNL lease to NTFC.  It would be good if those claiming this can back this up with hard information.  All I have read and heard is that due to a mistake by NBC the boundaries between the NTFC and CDNL land overlap.  I have no idea if this is a a few feet or much more. 

If the land lease matter was so simple as some suggest and that KT is not asking NBC for anything of any value and if KT does control both leases then why have they no plans to show anyone?

Again I am pretty sure that had a deal been done with the Trust / Locals last time we would be in a much better position as a club than we are now. The main reason they didn't get control was that KT rode into town waving his £4m. Silly me I should have said I had £10m stuff down the back of the sofa to invest. Wycombe are Trust owned and just been promoted so you don't need millions, Accrington the same and Burton too.

We could have got the club on a sound footing then looked for investment partners whilst maintaining a controlling share in NTFC

So called self proclaimed intelligent supporters seem to think that KT is great as they spent lots of cash on s*** players in January, appointed poor managers, knocked out a loo door and got us relegated,  how dumb can you be?

Wycombe are trust-owned in name only, really. Their version of KT is an ice-cream salesman who is a lot more open to having trust representation than KT seems to be.  They still need him to throw a lot of money at the club to be able to compete as they are.

Kt fooled the council with talk of money to invest just to get control since then what a few seats and a couple of tins of paint. Personally wish someone with a real plan took over instead of this chancer staying.

Perhaps we can learn from the German 50% + 1 ownership model. I think that Supporters Trusts should have representation on the club's board but, as we know from our history, the appointed representatives have got to be up to the task.  If the Trust had a director on the board of NTFC we wouldn't be scratching around looking for basic information denied to us by both KT and the Council.  

My impression is that the Trust directors have no more information than the rest of us of the detail behind the NBC - KT impasse.  It represents a truly shoddy state of affairs.

Couldn't agree more, KT is a chancer who luck has run out with NBC, there's no way there going to walk away unless they asset strip.

Didn't the supporters have a representative on the board when DC was in charge? How did that work out ?

If the council were to hand over any land, maybe something can be added to the lease to say the land can only be used for sporting purposes etc. I've heard of this sort of practice being used when assets and land have been handed over before to prevent it being sold on for a profit.

Take a second or two to read what I wrote about Trust appointees on the board before making a knee-jerk reaction.

Who?

climbed into Cardozas bed, so nul and void as a trust.
The latest version are only a little pro kt so less likely to wear their knee pads out.

Mad how people choose to believe politicians.

speculators all day long😉

If you follow the German model you can damn well know they have tried and tested it. 51% wouldn't be a bad model for NTFC.

plenty have been saying it on here, and I am all for it myself.

Who from the club would fund the purchase of the 51%?

You talk some complete bollocks mate, if you are not 100% sure on what you post, you really need to be careful because someone, sometime is going to call you to account. As always, your post contain your vision of things which, most of the time, are nothing like reality.

Well, there’s the key question right there. As with all of the dreaming on here, the reality presents a whole different perspective. Still the best plan on here in my view mind. Just got to figure out a way of getting our hands on the cash, lottery then?

There are various ways depending on how much the club is worth. With little in the way of freehold infrastructure and a shell of an East Stand to complete the valuation shouldn't be excessive.

Community Share Issues like at FC United of Manchester are interesting.

https://communityshares.org.uk/case-studies/fc-united-0 (https://communityshares.org.uk/case-studies/fc-united-0)

Again I think Thomas and Bower's legacy will be measured to whom they pass the club on to and a democratic member-owned element would be positive.

You are confusing worth with price.

Worth only comes into the equation with a compulsory purchase order. Otherwise it is what the owners are prepared to sell for and any prospective buyer will pay to gain control.The two parties have to agree. It will only go to any local consortium if they make the BEST offer.To imply they should be gifted it or offered at a much reduced price is naive.

Some fair points but I have never mentioned a "much reduced price". Thomas has said regarding a sale of the club that "We would love those conversations to be with local people" and that would obviously have to be for a fair price.

With a healthier ownership model it's likely that the stadium would be in better shape than we currently find it and the land behind in a state to provide a proper sporting and community legacy to the town.

I believe that some people are missing the key part of the 51%.  It has to be owned and run by the club, not a consortium, not a community scheme or a fan investor. Or are you talking about another 51% scheme that isn't the German model?

NTFC AGM 10am this Tuesday, any shareholders going or NTFC Trust?

Any news from the AGM ?

It's not started yet.

Good one ☝️

Ive been invited and will attend but Im only allowed to have a pre meeting chat and leave before the secretive stuff is discussed...
I really hope they dont turn against our council in which we have to work with in the future, this in favour of the consortium who are mostly interested in  seeking unconditional land/leases/ boundaries/ other,  but nothing gaureenteed for our clubs future growth and redev... (Apologies again all guesswork and assumptions in the absence of any official statement these past near 3 years.)

Beds - so you have non-voting shares?

I have a 50 years service thats allows me to do and say what I want shares..
Someone needs to oversee these lot😂 only joking
From what Im hearing these lot are no push overs and fully believe we have a proper progressive future..
Just keep the club and towns folk  in the loop please.

I'm intrigued. my understanding was that the 51% was owned by the club members - so, as long as you are allowed membership then you can purchase shares? Which means that a consortium or fan investor could run the club, as long as existing members approved. Is that how it works in Germany?

As with any solution the German model comes with compromise and is not without problems. Still like it though.

https://www.bundesliga.com/en/news/Bundesliga/german-soccer-rules-50-1-fifty-plus-one-explained-466583.jsp

https://www.ft.com/content/5b6146cc-11a3-11e8-940e-08320fc2a277

Ive got shares, shame they are non voting ones, as i would have had the AGM today  ;D ;D

The club members do not purchase shares, the club retains/holds 51%, the associated voting and overall control in the club's name.
The club members (fans etc..) are given an opportunity to determine which way those 51% of votes are used during pre-vote ballots, ensuring protection of the club from outside investors. 
Gladbach is the fifth largest in the BL with 80,000 members: https://www.statista.com/statistics/595935/german-bundesliga-clubs-member-numbers/
An example of cost and benefits to members: https://www.borussia.de/english/borussia-fans/members/become-a-member.html

The other 49% of shares are able to be purchased by a consortium or fan investor.
This restricts the popularity of those shares because the club is controlled and not run to make a substantial profit, just sufficient to cover running costs and agreed transfer budgets/improvements etc..

I am not sure of what 'start state' the clubs finances would need to be and how to recover 51% of the existing shares to begin, that maybe an initial prohibiter. 

Thanks for that, Deepcut - very clear. Seems its a non-starter in the UK unless a benevolent purchaser decides to give 51% of the club away immediately after purchasing it.

Who is not a pushover?

Let us hope some progress with the Council is announced tomorrow, over to NBC!

Did NBC not say they have a meeting on June 13 to discuss any issues regarding NTFC.

Yes, but don't hold your breath.

correct

Poor old Beds having to take this type of verbal abuse on the chin. Yet you rarely retaliate under such personal abuse. I don’t agree with most of your comments on NTFC, but your self discipline under such provocation is admirable.

That's because he enjoys it.