The Hotel End

The Hotel End => Cobblers Corner => Topic started by: Grove on January 21, 2019, 20:00:49 pm



Title: Fan Ownership
Post by: Grove on January 21, 2019, 20:00:49 pm
So many questions not least , where does the money come from to A) buy the club B) maintain the club C) move forward


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: GrangeParkCobbler on January 21, 2019, 20:10:36 pm
So many questions not least , where does the money come from to A) buy the club B) maintain the club C) move forward
Simple answers?

A) you hope to pick the club up for a pound as the current incumbents cut their losses

B) you maintain the club to break even, that may involve a vastly reduced playing budget to begin with...no point in hiding from that

C) you build on what you have, some of that will come naturally ala Lincoln, the way they have almost trebled their gates by getting fans more involved, being more transparent in their dealings, and making it an attractive proposition for local business to advertise and sponsor. That could affect B) above and may reduce the need for massive cuts.

Cloth is cut accordingly! Solidarity payments and TV revenue are a known figure, but pretty much everything else is variable. Income affects expenditure.....

In the short term the club becomes more attractive to the fans and local business, in the long term it becomes more attractive to possible outside investment. At that time the fans can then decide whether their ambitions have been realised and theyíve taken the club as far as they can.

Very simplistic I know......but why make things difficult?


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Boot and shoe on January 21, 2019, 20:59:15 pm
If we go down this road , we are confined to mediocrity forever .
I donít support it . We are not big enough to carry it off .


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Another Pedj on January 21, 2019, 21:14:24 pm
Simple answers?

A) you hope to pick the club up for a pound as the current incumbents cut their losses

B) you maintain the club to break even, that may involve a vastly reduced playing budget to begin with...no point in hiding from that

C) you build on what you have, some of that will come naturally ala Lincoln, the way they have almost trebled their gates by getting fans more involved, being more transparent in their dealings, and making it an attractive proposition for local business to advertise and sponsor. That could affect B) above and may reduce the need for massive cuts.

Cloth is cut accordingly! Solidarity payments and TV revenue are a known figure, but pretty much everything else is variable. Income affects expenditure.....

In the short term the club becomes more attractive to the fans and local business, in the long term it becomes more attractive to possible outside investment. At that time the fans can then decide whether their ambitions have been realised and theyíve taken the club as far as they can.

Very simplistic I know......but why make things difficult?
just go from A to B to start. Why would they surrender it for a £1. Write off nearly £2million in loans if they are breaking even.  You cannot cut your cloth by cancelling contracts.significant cash required.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: tcobb on January 21, 2019, 21:17:34 pm
I'm with Boot and Shoe, it's not for me, people think it will be so easy, Conference Football is a certainty if the fans were to take over now.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: everbrite on January 21, 2019, 21:32:06 pm
I'm with Boot and Shoe, it's not for me, people think it will be so easy, Conference Football is a certainty if the fans were to take over now.

I agree with this


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Shadowstorm on January 21, 2019, 21:34:44 pm
I'm with Boots and the others with this, it's not the way to go. I don't beleive enough money could be raised to buy let alone run this club. The budgets would be very tight and any potential we have would not be realised. I can only see no leauge football going down this route.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Irchy cob on January 21, 2019, 21:39:02 pm
Same here - I know that meccanoís heart is in the right place but it is a romantic, utopian vision with little to no basis in reality. Donít get me wrong I havenít a clue what the alternative is or how this is going to play out but the prospect of a fans owned or even phoenix club doesnít fill me with joy.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: GrangeParkCobbler on January 21, 2019, 21:49:06 pm
just go from A to B to start. Why would they surrender it for a £1. Write off nearly £2million in loans if they are breaking even.  You cannot cut your cloth by cancelling contracts.significant cash required.

I didnít say anything about cancelling contract, obviously thatís an expensive road to go down.

Why would they surrender it for a £1.....erm, isnít that what DC did in the end? And we are nowhere near breaking even, Iím pretty sure of that! The maths do not add up.

Let me just say Iím not actually advocating 100% fan ownership, indeed it would be full of pitfalls along the way, however I would advocate a Ďcommunity run clubí.....with a potential local suitor sitting above keeping an eye on things.

What I certainly donít advocate are property developers hiding behind various shell companies, some of which are offshore and little communication about anything whatsoever. Undisclosed transfer fees would be a thing of the past!


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: BackOfTheNet on January 21, 2019, 21:58:25 pm
I stand by what I said a few months ago when this started to be bandied about; under fan ownership we'd go into administration within three seasons.

Fan ownership is a lovely, idealistic daydream but it's not something I want to see happen as it would swiftly turn sour in the real world.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: GrangeParkCobbler on January 21, 2019, 22:27:30 pm
I stand by what I said a few months ago when this started to be bandied about; under fan ownership we'd go into administration within three seasons.

Fan ownership is a lovely, idealistic daydream but it's not something I want to see happen as it would swiftly turn sour in the real world.

Look, it isnít going to be for everyone, and who knows how it would turn out. You may be correct, you may not! Itís the fear of the unknown.
But.....plan A isnít working....does that mean we just accept the status quo because thatís the easy option?


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: GrangeParkCobbler on January 21, 2019, 22:36:12 pm
http://ntfctrust.co.uk/news/article/statement-public-meeting-to-discuss-community-ownership

The Trust statement.

Iím a bit confused, firstly it says hybrid public/fan ownership, but later it says hybrid private/fan ownership.

Arenít these two different things?


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: memyhead on January 21, 2019, 23:29:59 pm
Heart says great idea, reality says otherwise...

KT said in response to @NQNTFC questions on Twitter last week that funding is still in place to complete the East Stand, he's finally got Council back on board after the mess DC left us/them in. I know it's been a painful process but surely we need to see how this pans out...

Have the trust got a backer who will have the funds to actually complete East Stand as I like everyone else am sick to death of looking at that current monstrosity?


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: FezNTFC on January 21, 2019, 23:53:19 pm
Apologies for the incoming essay, but here goes.

The reality is that no ownership model, either fan owned or privately owned, guarantees success or failure. For the rose tinted who think that everything would be hunky dory with a Trust run club, you donít know. For those who say we would be guaranteed to go down to the Conference, you donít know.

So hereís a bit more context around this whole issue.

At the NTFC Trust AGM last year, James Mathie from Supportersí Direct, and Don Woodward - the former Wycombe chairman who oversaw the transition to fan ownership at Adams Park - attended the meeting.

James Mathie quoted a Deloitte report that the average loss in League Two in 2015/16 was £500k before player trading. In League One that jumped up to £1.6m. He also mentioned a BDO report that focussed on how reliant clubs are on their owners to fund losses. The most recent stats show that a third of clubs in Leagues One and Two were totally reliant on their owners to make up for losses.
 
This, James Mathie said, leads to short termism. Although in a fan owned model you obviously donít get the level of short term cash injection you would with a private owner chasing success, thereís a long term strategy in place for incremental growth.

Wrexham fans took over their club eight years ago and since then they have grown the turnover each year without relying on player sales and posted a profit this year.

A community share is a popular method that was used by Portsmouth. They raised £2.5m from it, and this is a mechanism that the Trust here in Northampton could look at. Admittedly, the Trust at Pompey felt they had taken the club as far as they could and sold onto private owners. How it works out I guess weíll see, but theyíre doing well this year.

Don Woodward then spoke about his time at Wycombe. He said they had one owner who was supporting two sides (Wycombe and Wasps) at the same time. Don said that Wanderers were losing £1.5m - £2m per year.

The Trust at Wycombe stepped up from being a critical friend to running the club. It would have been easier had they prepared for such an eventuality years before, which is what NTFC Trust is currently doing. But they avoided relegation to the Conference, and have subsequently had a promotion to League One.

Don estimated that NTFC Trust would need to raise £1-2m over the next two years to run the club on a break even level. It sounds incredibly difficult, but if everyone gets behind a goal itís achievable he thinks.

Portsmouth had ten local business owners getting involved. Don is very confident that local businesses in Northampton will get on board if itís a community ownership model - he reckons they could contribute as much as £100k each.

Of course, there are examples too of when fan ownership hasnít gone so well. Notts County supporters for example sold the club to Munto Finance without any due diligence on their new owners, and things didnít go as planned there.

So we have some success stories, and we have some failures as well.

Another important thing to remember is that the current Trust board would not be running the show. They would bring in professionals to run the football club. No supporters owned club is run by the people who used to run the car boot sales or make the coffees on matchdays.

We would also be able to call on the help of Supporters Direct, which was formed by Brian Lomax and knows what to do in ensuring that Trusts can take on the running of a football club.

So my summary from all this information is that I guess in the end it comes down to what you would prefer. Do you prefer a privately run club with the potential for greater success but much higher risks, or the club that tries to make gradual changes, albeit still with some risk attached to it but with those risks being balanced against the best interests of the club rather than the best interests of a private owner?

I can understand why some people would choose the former, we all want to see the Cobblers challenging at the highest level. But the caveat to that is that more than 50 years of private ownership has secured NTFC the grand sum of two seasons in the second tier of the football league, and a solitary season in the first. Compare that to the three times weíve nearly gone out of business altogether. That too should be taken into consideration.

Also, is making the Championship a fair yardstick to measure a fan owned club against given the facts Iíve just mentioned and clubís history of bouncing between Leagues One and Two? How about measuring it against whether we could ever become a stable League One club that competes to go up to the second tier? Is that not an achievable goal which we could aspire to, and then hopefully build on if the club grows?

Meanwhile, Exeter, Newport County, AFC Wimbledon and Wycombe, all Trust run, are all currently above us in the Football League pyramid and with none of them staring at to the trapdoor to the Conference.

So yes, letís have a debate. There are pros and cons on both sides, and none of us actually know how it would work out.

So come along to that public meeting when itís held, absorb some actual facts and be open to the idea of hearing both sides of the argument.

UTC.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: guest2724 on January 22, 2019, 07:29:17 am
I think that's a very helpful explanation of the Trusts thinking by Fez..

The statement by the Trust is careful and welcome (at least by me) at another critical time in the cobblers history.

The successful asset of community value registration does give the Trust some opportunity to make it's voice heard more loudly than at any stage. This perhaps has not been as fully discussed on here or elsewhere (or perhaps even on the Trust's own website) as it should be. This is probably because it might seem to be both somewhat boring(!), complicated and unrelated to the future of the club but it will probably be a critical part of any supporters involvement in the club.

I think in the next few months the outcome of the discussions/negotiations between NBC and the club will be made public and the picture will become much clearer regarding the future of the club and the East Stand.

Ultimately, whether the supporters can become involved will be down to resources, competence and the strength of support by cobblers fans to pursue this. Scepticism is good - the best option will only develop when it has been tested by supporter questioning. As Fez says, the typical club in Div 2 loses £500,000 every year before player trading and therefore any supporter led club couldn't operate on this basis.

At the same time, there are many clubs, especially in the championship, who have very wealthy owners who have invested huge amounts of money into clubs and failed to get either promoted or even stay in the championship so money alone is not the answer to a successful club.

I would urge everybody not to dismiss this until you have heard what the Trust have to say and their ideas for the future. Lots, maybe most, supporters are only interested in how well the team plays and where we are in the league. At the same time, for other people the club is more than just what happens on the pitch. It should be possible with wise leadership for both sets of objectives to run in parallel!


Supporters of the cobblers, us very long suffering folk, should be grateful that the Trust exists and is trying hard.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: BackOfTheNet on January 22, 2019, 07:38:48 am
Look, it isnít going to be for everyone, and who knows how it would turn out. You may be correct, you may not! Itís the fear of the unknown.
But.....plan A isnít working....does that mean we just accept the status quo because thatís the easy option?

Look at it this way. Imagine you are struggling to make your mortgage repayments, have missed a few and the bank have got you on a final warning but this month you've scraped together the cash to cover it. Do you a) make the payment or b) think "**** it" and spunk the lot on lottery tickets?

If plan B comes off you are laughing and will never have to worry about the mortgage again. If it doesn't, you and your family will likely be without a home.

I don't think there are many people who'd risk option b. Personally, I'd rather plod along, ekeing enough together each month to survive and sticking with the status quo.

It's not about fear of the unknown, it's about mitigation of risk.

If someone wants to risk their house on plan B then that's up to them and ultimately only affects them. If they want to roll the dice on something that risks the future of MY team then it's not something I appreciate.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: BackOfTheNet on January 22, 2019, 07:54:36 am
One element of caution I'd add to Fez's reasoned post is that Wrexham keep getting cited as a great success story, but I looked into it a bit the last time they were mentioned.

Yes, they might be growing turnover year on year without relying on player sales, but they only made a profit this year BECAUSE of a player sale (actually, from a sell on fee but the principle is the same). Without that they'd have posted another significant loss.

Growing turnover is easy if you sell at a loss; turning a regular profit to make that growth sustainable is the tricky part (especially without a wealthy backer to bail you out) and I see no evidence that they've got an answer to that!


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: exiledinspace on January 22, 2019, 07:56:25 am



Portsmouth had ten local business owners getting involved. Don is very confident that local businesses in Northampton will get on board if itís a community ownership model - he reckons they could contribute as much as £100k each.

50 years of private ownership has secured NTFC the grand sum of two seasons in the second tier of the football league, and a solitary season in the first. Compare that to the three times weíve nearly gone out of business altogether. That too should be taken into consideration.


This for me is the crucial factor and GPC is also on point again. A succession of investors masquerading as owners have poisoned the relationship between not only the town and the club but many long term supporters too. The club is being treated like a ****.

Confidence in the club from local businesses is shattered, very few will go anywhere near us. My close friend was the clubs main sponsor back in the 90's and agrees.

Until some "body" or consortium with local connections or genuine intentions for the club and it's future are in place it will remain the same. There is probably more financial help, investment or sponsorship out there than possibly some here may imagine, but only if good will and confidence can return.

I started going in 1981, we were mid table in the fourth division......


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Vintage Cobbler on January 22, 2019, 08:02:51 am
Excellent post by Fez which should be carefully considered by all. 

Whichever side of the debate you are on one thing must be clear to everyone and this is that the present ownership model for NTFC is broken.  McRichie, Cardozas, DB/KT have all succeeded in severely disappointing us.  We have to change direction and now is the time to consider other possibilities and at the very least keep an open mind until we know exactly what is on the table.  The rush by some to hasty negative judgment is unwise and unhelpful.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: SadOldGit on January 22, 2019, 08:20:29 am
If we go down this road , we are confined to mediocrity forever .
I donít support it . We are not big enough to carry it off .

Oh, and private ownership has done us so well in over a hundred years to avoid mediocrity has it?


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Boot and shoe on January 22, 2019, 09:03:22 am
Oh, and private ownership has done us so well in over a hundred years to avoid mediocrity has it?
Private ownership has given us some enjoyable times and some desperate times .
Fan ownership , in my view would just stagnate us .
You need someone who can write off the inevitable losses .
I believe we would be in danger of dropping out the league .
Donít get me wrong , I have absolutely no idea about what the alternative answer is currently . There appears to be no drive from above whatsoever . We are a club with no agenda right now .


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Another Pedj on January 22, 2019, 09:34:39 am
Private ownership has given us some enjoyable times and some desperate times .
Fan ownership , in my view would just stagnate us .
You need someone who can write off the inevitable losses .
I believe we would be in danger of dropping out the league .
Donít get me wrong , I have absolutely no idea about what the alternative answer is currently . There appears to be no drive from above whatsoever . We are a club with no agenda right now .


The problem is that whilst well intentioned it will not work unless it has generous benefactors behind it. The raising of the 1-2 million may be just possible Say 3000 individuals at £500 each. That however is for working capital. It does not acquire the club pay off the existing indebtedness or develop the ground.  The key will be the Trusts financial plans and what level of support they have behind them.

The involvement of Wycombe does emphasize this case. They were only able to do so because they had the support of a Rugby man who wanted Wasps to play there. He has move on to Coventry. The trust are now recommending the sale to private individuals.

Newport had the backing of a European Lottery winner who walked away writing off his investment by transferring the shares to the Trust.

Exeter is a good model but has relied for years on the sale of young player for very large sums.

Portsmouth have recently moved away from the Trust.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: guest170 on January 22, 2019, 09:39:26 am
Its encouraging to see a positive discussion on this  and hopefully the thread can continue in the same way.
Personally I'm not a fan of fan ownership models as for me the risk to our future is to high, even though I agree we've not had a great period.

Fez's post has some great and interesting points and is well balanced. It would be interesting to see what local business we have and how much they would contribute. My biggest concern with it is where the money comes from. If we need £1.5-2m and Portsmouth has 10 companies giving 100k each that still leaves us £0.5-1m short, and could we really attract the same level of investment as Portsmouth? If we can get offers in principle that could cover close to the requirement then it becomes more attractive.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: meccanostand on January 22, 2019, 09:45:00 am
Fan Ownership story here via the NeneQuirer. Includes Trust statement on the redevelopment.

https://nenequirer.com/2019/01/21/supporters-trust-to-investigate-fan-ownership-bid-for-cobblers/ (https://nenequirer.com/2019/01/21/supporters-trust-to-investigate-fan-ownership-bid-for-cobblers/)


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: WasRambo on January 22, 2019, 09:57:19 am
Euromillions jackpot is up to £61 million tonight.

My spreadsheet says I'd have enough to buy the club and be able to cover the losses until we my 5 year plan gets us to the Prem....


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: barton cobbler on January 22, 2019, 10:47:13 am


The involvement of Wycombe does emphasize this case. They were only able to do so because they had the support of a Rugby man who wanted Wasps to play there. He has move on to Coventry. The trust are now recommending the sale to private individuals. Since when ?

.




Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Boot and shoe on January 22, 2019, 10:49:03 am
The problem is that whilst well intentioned it will not work unless it has generous benefactors behind it. The raising of the 1-2 million may be just possible Say 3000 individuals at £500 each. That however is for working capital. It does not acquire the club pay off the existing indebtedness or develop the ground.  The key will be the Trusts financial plans and what level of support they have behind them.

The involvement of Wycombe does emphasize this case. They were only able to do so because they had the support of a Rugby man who wanted Wasps to play there. He has move on to Coventry. The trust are now recommending the sale to private individuals.

Newport had the backing of a European Lottery winner who walked away writing off his investment by transferring the shares to the Trust.

Exeter is a good model but has relied for years on the sale of young player for very large sums.

Portsmouth have recently moved away from the Trust.
Exactly - fan ownership can work if you are backed by a fan with a load of money !
As a utilitarian business model I donít think it stands up for a club of our size .


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Another Pedj on January 22, 2019, 11:05:54 am


http://www.wycombewandererstrust.com/


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: guest3230 on January 22, 2019, 11:44:00 am
I'm against fan ownership but understand the reasons behind looking into it and the options outside of our current ownership model.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: AbingtonCobbler on January 22, 2019, 11:50:53 am
Fans ownership is a non-starter.

There is no chance of raising enough capital for the acquisition, day to day running, maintenance and improvement works, players wages etc.

Nice idea but sorry no.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Deepcut Cobbler on January 22, 2019, 12:13:02 pm
This proposed fan ownership is the 100% option.
Is the German version of 51% being investigated?


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: barton cobbler on January 22, 2019, 15:24:52 pm
http://www.wycombewandererstrust.com/
Fair point, well made !  ;D


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Manwork04 on January 22, 2019, 15:35:43 pm
This proposed fan ownership is the 100% option.
Is the German version of 51% being investigated?
Spot on Deepcut this is the best model going forward.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: The 12th Marquis of Sixfields on January 22, 2019, 20:07:40 pm


B) you maintain the club to break even, that may involve a vastly reduced playing budget to begin with...no point in hiding from that

That will not get the crowds in.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: guest3114 on January 22, 2019, 21:29:03 pm
This proposed fan ownership is the 100% option.
Is the German version of 51% being investigated?
It should be. The posts questioning fan ownership raise some valid points and to deny its flaws as a model is misguided. My personal view is that it is the most likely to achieve the realistic aspirations of the support base. However in my assessment it would take 3000-5000 supporters to invest a total of around 7 to 9 million to stand a chance of taking the club forward. This would need to be near matched by outside investment taking up the remaining 49%. With restriction on shareholdings preventing a hostile takeover outsider corporate investors just may buy into the romance of the model. This would give a total of 14 to 17 million. Is this achievable, is there the appetite for this, I suspect not but thatís my assessment in aligning what we would want with what we would need. All done pretty much blind of course but thought I would put it out there again. The bottom line is if there was the appetite for this across the support base on those general terms I would be up for a punt and so I believe would Manny, but so far thatís about it? Hardly the the attractive master plan Iíd hoped for?


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: BedsCobb on January 22, 2019, 23:14:07 pm
It should be. The posts questioning fan ownership raise some valid points and to deny its flaws as a model is misguided. My personal view is that it is the most likely to achieve the realistic aspirations of the support base. However in my assessment it would take 3000-5000 supporters to invest a total of around 7 to 9 million to stand a chance of taking the club forward. This would need to be near matched by outside investment taking up the remaining 49%. With restriction on shareholdings preventing a hostile takeover outsider corporate investors just may buy into the romance of the model. This would give a total of 14 to 17 million. Is this achievable, is there the appetite for this, I suspect not but thatís my assessment in aligning what we would want with what we would need. All done pretty much blind of course but thought I would put it out there again. The bottom line is if there was the appetite for this across the support base on those general terms I would be up for a punt and so I believe would Manny, but so far thatís about it? Hardly the the attractive master plan Iíd hoped for?
You do love your big unattainable numbers.
At no time in the clubs history has anyone invested more than 500k at any one time and the club has bounced along   surviving hand to mouth on the good will of the very few fans that bother to turn up.
£17m would make life very easy but it's not essential as only Sunderland could dream of that kind of investment.
A fan run club working closely with local buisneses would only need to show an upturn of 50% increase of gate revenues, corporate match day takings, food and beverages etc and to acheive its immediate goals of stages of redevelopment of the stadium over a period of time and attain and establish a league 1 presence.
We would not need anything like these fanciful figures to take the first steps to building up our club.
None of us would expect us to make record signings just to hook better quality players from the pool all clubs get them from.
Steady year on year growth working with all the clubs catchment and buisness community catches monkey.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: guest3245 on January 23, 2019, 00:17:19 am
Now then.  The great thing about a Capitalist Society is that you can make loads of dosh, even from a failed business plan.

So, what you do in this instance is, get a few people (maybe 6 or 7) who would be prepared to sacrifice £100 each (initial Share listing to prove it is a bona fide business).  You set up a new company called "Cobblers 2019 Ltd" - sorry - an extra £200 or so to find to set the company up.....  ooops, my maths are bad already.

But, then, having set up said company, you buy the Cobblers from Thomas etc for the same £1 that they paid for it.

Having done that, you declare yourselves bankrupt, due to the huge debts you have acquired.  You then appoint another Hotel-Ender (who hopefully has an Accounting Qualification - over and above counting sheep - to act as Administrator).  They then negotiate a write-down/write-off of all owings to something more manageable.

The Bankrupt Company of "Cobblers 2019 Ltd" is then sold to another group of fans each prepared to sacrifice £100 each, to form a new company called "Cobblers Again 2019 Ltd" - sorry -forgot the set-up fees again.... darn.....

Carry on ad infinitum until there are no more debts.

You will lose all real businesses as supporters and sponsors.  And probably cause a few local businesses to go under.

But, the club will be otherwise debt-free and manageable.

Eh, voila..... That is how Mr.Big-Money becomes Mr.Big-Money in a Capitalist Society.... (and also, how fans can buy the club with bugger all dosh.)

Dare you do it, though?


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: guest3114 on January 23, 2019, 02:23:36 am
You do love your big unattainable numbers.
At no time in the clubs history has anyone invested more than 500k at any one time and the club has bounced along   surviving hand to mouth on the good will of the very few fans that bother to turn up.
£17m would make life very easy but it's not essential as only Sunderland could dream of that kind of investment.
A fan run club working closely with local buisneses would only need to show an upturn of 50% increase of gate revenues, corporate match day takings, food and beverages etc and to acheive its immediate goals of stages of redevelopment of the stadium over a period of time and attain and establish a league 1 presence.
We would not need anything like these fanciful figures to take the first steps to building up our club.
None of us would expect us to make record signings just to hook better quality players from the pool all clubs get them from.
Steady year on year growth working with all the clubs catchment and buisness community catches monkey.
Just an opinion, based on figures pulled out of the air. Happy to listen to any realistic business plans and happy to put my money into anything viable. Just a general observation, but the idea that the club can be moved forward on 500k isnít viable, again in my opinion and quoting the clubs track record on this is a bit pointless given we all agree that our current state is unsatisfactory? One thing I can tell you from experience is that as a general rule when you enter into an area that is outside of your area of expertise it generally costs 30% more and takes 30% longer than forecast. As a general rule of course. To be honest if your proposal was the one on the table I wouldnít be investing anything, but no problem because you wouldnít need it anyway. Iím sticking to 14 million minimum to take control of the club, move it forward, cover the unforeseen and have a provable line of credit to ensure you can get a contractor to stick a stick a spade in the ground. Again just my opinion based on blind observation.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: guest3245 on January 23, 2019, 04:03:26 am
Just an opinion, based on figures pulled out of the air. Happy to listen to any realistic business plans and happy to put my money into anything viable. Just a general observation, but the idea that the club can be moved forward on 500k isnít viable, again in my opinion and quoting the clubs track record on this is a bit pointless given we all agree that our current state is unsatisfactory? One thing I can tell you from experience is that as a general rule when you enter into an area that is outside of your area of expertise it generally costs 30% more and takes 30% longer than forecast. As a general rule of course. To be honest if your proposal was the one on the table I wouldnít be investing anything, but no problem because you wouldnít need it anyway. Iím sticking to 14 million minimum to take control of the club, move it forward, cover the unforeseen and have a provable line of credit to ensure you can get a contractor to stick a stick a spade in the ground. Again just my opinion based on blind observation.

Re: your 30%s.....  Good point.  And I sort of agree (you are now tainted by association to be abused by "The Board"....  ie, the Zombies).  Except, you need to be stronger.......

In the days when I was involved in very innovative stuff (like the first horseless carriage), the guidelines on costs for stuff that you had no knowledge of was.....  think of everything you can, make it worse case, then double it to make up for the things you haven't thought of (ie, 200%), then double it again (ie, take it to 400%) as you are always over optimistic on future achievements.  Surprisingly, a few such projects succeeded.  The majority died to cost over-runs.... 

Does our board think it is the punk that Clint Eastwood questioned?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQaehcfXvK0

I fear some piggy banks are going to get shafted to pursue this one.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: St Edmundsbury Cobbler on January 23, 2019, 07:27:12 am
Excellent post by Fez which should be carefully considered by all. 

Whichever side of the debate you are on one thing must be clear to everyone and this is that the present ownership model for NTFC is broken.  McRichie, Cardozas, DB/KT have all succeeded in severely disappointing us.  We have to change direction and now is the time to consider other possibilities and at the very least keep an open mind until we know exactly what is on the table.  The rush by some to hasty negative judgment is unwise and unhelpful.

I think mentioning the current owners in the same breath as those two bastards is rather harsh.

As for fan ownership, I was against this until reading Fez's post. I'm more interested in this. If the trust was to look at community shares would there be a minimum investment that would allow fans on a modest income to get involved.

Also I'd be interested in what targets the club would set for managers. Recent years there's been a shrug of shoulders when we've gone out of the league and FA  Cups or been relegated without a fight from League 1. Both cups represent good extra sums of income both in terms of prize and gate money and my opinion is that the target for the team is to get to Round 2 of the League Cup and Round three of the FA Cup. Staying in League One this season would have guaranteed at least six full houses at Sixfields that we missed out on because so many poor to completly unacceptable performances from a highly paid manager and his highly paid players were simply tolerated for too long.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: guest3114 on January 23, 2019, 08:36:32 am
Re: your 30%s.....  Good point.  And I sort of agree (you are now tainted by association to be abused by "The Board"....  ie, the Zombies).  Except, you need to be stronger.......

In the days when I was involved in very innovative stuff (like the first horseless carriage), the guidelines on costs for stuff that you had no knowledge of was.....  think of everything you can, make it worse case, then double it to make up for the things you haven't thought of (ie, 200%), then double it again (ie, take it to 400%) as you are always over optimistic on future achievements.  Surprisingly, a few such projects succeeded.  The majority died to cost over-runs.... 

Does our board think it is the punk that Clint Eastwood questioned?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQaehcfXvK0

I fear some piggy banks are going to get shafted to pursue this one.
Ah, I see you are somewhat sceptical? To be fair your proposal is quite a bit more popular than mine. Disappointingly mine appears to be going down like a bag of sick?


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: exiledinspace on January 23, 2019, 08:37:40 am
I think mentioning the current owners in the same breath as those two bastards is rather harsh.

As for fan ownership, I was against this until reading Fez's post. I'm more interested in this. If the trust was to look at community shares would there be a minimum investment that would allow fans on a modest income to get involved.

Also I'd be interested in what targets the club would set for managers. Recent years there's been a shrug of shoulders when we've gone out of the league and FA  Cups or been relegated without a fight from League 1. Both cups represent good extra sums of income both in terms of prize and gate money and my opinion is that the target for the team is to get to Round 2 of the League Cup and Round three of the FA Cup. Staying in League One this season would have guaranteed at least six full houses at Sixfields that we missed out on because so many poor to completly unacceptable performances from a highly paid manager and his highly paid players were simply tolerated for too long.

Totally agree.

Despite living in Asia, I would certainly be interested in investing some of my spare cash into something tangible for the future of the club. I may be insane but I'm sure there are others, equally challenged who would want to invest too.

The world has moved on since chairmen wore sheepskins, smoked cigars and drove Jags, there are a multitude of ways to raise funding and cash, all it needs is a spotty nerd to sort it out. (I've seen many of them at games before)

Confidence need to be restored, I do believe there could be a hidden groundswell of support for the club with the right "team" at the helm.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Coolcat on January 23, 2019, 13:44:31 pm
Totally agree.

Despite living in Asia, I would certainly be interested in investing some of my spare cash into something tangible for the future of the club. I may be insane but I'm sure there are others, equally challenged who would want to invest too.

The world has moved on since chairmen wore sheepskins, smoked cigars and drove Jags, there are a multitude of ways to raise funding and cash, all it needs is a spotty nerd to sort it out. (I've seen many of them at games before)

Confidence need to be restored, I do believe there could be a hidden groundswell of support for the club with the right "team" at the helm.
I believe Jeema was once an accountant!   ;D

Yes, the FEZ post has certainly offered a reasoned perspective to consider, though personally, I've always viewed fan ownership as a last resort, when clubs are financially up the creek without a paddle.
Maybe that view needs re-assessing!


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: guest3114 on January 23, 2019, 14:15:59 pm
Totally agree.

Despite living in Asia, I would certainly be interested in investing some of my spare cash into something tangible for the future of the club. I may be insane but I'm sure there are others, equally challenged who would want to invest too.

The world has moved on since chairmen wore sheepskins, smoked cigars and drove Jags, there are a multitude of ways to raise funding and cash, all it needs is a spotty nerd to sort it out. (I've seen many of them at games before)

Confidence need to be restored, I do believe there could be a hidden groundswell of support for the club with the right "team" at the helm.
Getting the right ďteamĒ at the helm would be one of biggest challenges and important decisions to be made. It could indeed be the catalyst required. More wise words from the beach.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Zen Master on January 23, 2019, 19:01:20 pm
Imagine if we had a tidy ground with conference facilities and boxes, zero debt and a cash injection to get started. It couldnít go wrong. Could it?


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: cobblergaz59 on January 23, 2019, 23:07:34 pm
Imagine if we had a ground with conference facilities
Pretty sure Beds keeps telling us we already have this  ;D ;D


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: BedsCobb on January 24, 2019, 00:36:40 am
Pretty sure Beds keeps telling us we already have this  ;D ;D
Had to read that twice, Conferencing  centre for 7 day a week income, not a visit to the vanarama in our blue square ground  ;)


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Lukey on January 24, 2019, 00:57:42 am
Welcome Joe, looking forward to seeing what he can do when he settles in.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: St Edmundsbury Cobbler on January 24, 2019, 05:14:39 am
Imagine if we had a tidy ground with conference facilities and boxes, zero debt and a cash injection to get started. It couldnít go wrong. Could it?

If the "How to not do fan ownership" book survived the demolition of Nene Park then that would be well worth a read.

In addition to that, if we could get the "How to avoid chairmen that really are only after land and slowly kill a football club the process" book, then pick that up too.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Zen Master on January 24, 2019, 07:38:28 am
Pretty sure Beds keeps telling us we already have this  ;D ;D

Glad it was noticed


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Vintage Cobbler on January 24, 2019, 20:57:45 pm
https://nenequirer.com/2019/01/24/cobblers-supporters-trust-launches-project-proud-to-be/

The project is moving forward.  Keep an open mind and consider what we have not achieved on or off the pitch with the present ownership model.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: guest3114 on January 24, 2019, 21:40:34 pm
Whilst different ideas about funding and the like have been put up on here for me there are some criteria that are absolutely vital. The first is that the support base must hold the majority share. The second is that it must be structured in such a way so as the club cannot revert to individual or private ownership. I understand that the German principal has the 50 to 1 rule (with a couple of exceptions) to underpin the model. Given that legislative support doesnít exist, the articles and memorandums would need to be carefully drafted and rigorously applied to support the principal. Whilst we can all argue about the amount and types of funding the basic principles of ownership are absolutely everything and at least initially I think the main focus should be on establishing this? I have read that options will be considered from 10% supporter owned up. Whilst it is right in principle to investigate all options, my view is that it is absolutely vital that the fan base hold the majority share and I would stringently oppose any proposal to the contrary.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Terryfenwickatemyhamster on January 24, 2019, 22:55:24 pm
https://nenequirer.com/2019/01/24/cobblers-supporters-trust-launches-project-proud-to-be/

The project is moving forward.  Keep an open mind and consider what we have not achieved on or off the pitch with the present ownership model.

About the same as all the clubs with fan ownership   ;D ;D



Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: DrillingCobbler on January 25, 2019, 07:14:49 am
My *ideal* scenario at this point, and based on my interpretation, research and what I believe would work would be for a circa 25% stake, proper board representation, and an agreed 'investment' level that the Trust contributes towards the cost of running the club, year on year.

For this, The Trust would work very closely with a local based investor/s with the club at heart. Not to make a profit from land, basically.

Such a relationship, for me, would tick all the boxes. An ability to tap into the corporate market more so, and to entice more people to games. Based on 'feel good factor', that the money isn't just being chucked into a bottomless pit. Also, I personally believe that most reputable business people that bring decent £££ to the table, would want the majority of shares and final say on matters. I 'get that'. BUT. It has to be totally transparent, if I was mega rich Id happily take on NTFC and work with the fans, providing my own investment was totally protected.

Transparency is key moving forward. For many years we had 'open and honest' Big Dave; now we've got someone who 'under promises, over delivers'.

We have had and still have various 'subsidiary businesses' associated in some way or another with NTFC, either direct or indirect. No one truly knows what these are for. Tax benefits? NTFC doesn't make a profit, never has done...so what the tax benefits and other benefits of having such a complicated financial structure are, only a select few know.

All money generated from the football club, land etc, to be channelled back into the football club to build it up. Essentially, 'not for profit'.

My issue and it is a huge issue is that we've had owners who want to make money. Thats because they are not 'fans', or someone that is happy to 'profit in other areas' by association/brand. This has been the case now for, what, 15 years? Sitting on a patch of land that could, if done properly, elevate NTFC to another level.

If that takes full ownership/majority ownership to achieve then Id also be all up for it. Buying the football club itself, and not the associated land..thats the bit I don't personally know/understand the potential ramifications of.

Some people on here talk purely from a capitalist stance. I've got my own business, have had for 13 years. 10 people on the payroll plus directors. I only say that, purely to enforce my own stance that morally, I do not believe it is right to try and make profit from what is essentially a community asset. Whilst it is privately owned, football is very different to other businesses. So for me, that argument doesn't wash one bit. If I could get my hands on a football club (not one I support) with the potential to make money, I simply wouldn't do it. Because I do not believe its the right thing to do.







Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: guest3114 on January 25, 2019, 08:06:09 am
My *ideal* scenario at this point, and based on my interpretation, research and what I believe would work would be for a circa 25% stake, proper board representation, and an agreed 'investment' level that the Trust contributes towards the cost of running the club, year on year.

For this, The Trust would work very closely with a local based investor/s with the club at heart. Not to make a profit from land, basically.

Such a relationship, for me, would tick all the boxes. An ability to tap into the corporate market more so, and to entice more people to games. Based on 'feel good factor', that the money isn't just being chucked into a bottomless pit. Also, I personally believe that most reputable business people that bring decent £££ to the table, would want the majority of shares and final say on matters. I 'get that'. BUT. It has to be totally transparent, if I was mega rich Id happily take on NTFC and work with the fans, providing my own investment was totally protected.

Transparency is key moving forward. For many years we had 'open and honest' Big Dave; now we've got someone who 'under promises, over delivers'.

We have had and still have various 'subsidiary businesses' associated in some way or another with NTFC, either direct or indirect. No one truly knows what these are for. Tax benefits? NTFC doesn't make a profit, never has done...so what the tax benefits and other benefits of having such a complicated financial structure are, only a select few know.

All money generated from the football club, land etc, to be channelled back into the football club to build it up. Essentially, 'not for profit'.

My issue and it is a huge issue is that we've had owners who want to make money. Thats because they are not 'fans', or someone that is happy to 'profit in other areas' by association/brand. This has been the case now for, what, 15 years? Sitting on a patch of land that could, if done properly, elevate NTFC to another level.

If that takes full ownership/majority ownership to achieve then Id also be all up for it. Buying the football club itself, and not the associated land..thats the bit I don't personally know/understand the potential ramifications of.

Some people on here talk purely from a capitalist stance. I've got my own business, have had for 13 years. 10 people on the payroll plus directors. I only say that, purely to enforce my own stance that morally, I do not believe it is right to try and make profit from what is essentially a community asset. Whilst it is privately owned, football is very different to other businesses. So for me, that argument doesn't wash one bit. If I could get my hands on a football club (not one I support) with the potential to make money, I simply wouldn't do it. Because I do not believe its the right thing to do.






some good points DC but are you not concerned that with your preferred proposal the club remains vulnerable to be taken over by another undesirable owner? If the majority shareholding is with a corporation, individual or small group and collective you are at their mercy. They could be morally upstanding such as yourself prepared to run the club on a non profit basis. However if they fall on hard times or are victim to an unforeseen set of circumstances they may be forced to sell? We could then end up right back to where we started with an undesirable owner, all the hard work in vain and a perhaps once in a lifetime opportunity missed. Iím sorry but as far as this particular issue goes i believe the club should be majority fan owned with a cap or limitation on the amount of shares an individual or corporate body can own. Therefore there is some protection against this scenario occurring. Genuine question DC, given your preferred option is a 25% stake how would you respond to someone with my fears to alleviate these concerns?


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: DrillingCobbler on January 25, 2019, 08:36:56 am
some good points DC but are you not concerned that with your preferred proposal the club remains vulnerable to be taken over by another undesirable owner? If the majority shareholding is with a corporation, individual or small group and collective you are at their mercy. They could be morally upstanding such as yourself prepared to run the club on a non profit basis. However if they fall on hard times or are victim to an unforeseen set of circumstances they may be forced to sell? We could then end up right back to where we started with an undesirable owner, all the hard work in vain and a perhaps once in a lifetime opportunity missed. Iím sorry but as far as this particular issue goes i believe the club should be majority fan owned with a cap or limitation on the amount of shares an individual or corporate body can own. Therefore there is some protection against this scenario occurring. Genuine question DC, given your preferred option is a 25% stake how would you respond to someone with my fears to alleviate these concerns?

I cant basically!

The way I look at it, every model has dangers associated with it. For example, full ownership could mean that 'hard times' could occur for a whole multitude of different reasons. The collapse of ITV digital, wasn't foreseen and was the reason many clubs struggled for a period when it happened. For example, if we had been 100% fan owned back then, and budgeted sensibly based on expected income etc...we'd have had no 'back stop' (sorry  ;D ). Having an investor/s within such a model, what happens if said investor/s pulled out/died and left their shares to an undesirable person?

The challenge with football is that it is absolutely impossible to predict future income. Whilst to compete you have to dish out long contracts, pay out unexpected compensation (when a manager is sacked/Kasim cases!), sponsor pulls out/goes bust. Theres loads.

Wycombe have just agreed to sell up to private investors (according to their website - trust one), now that was because they spent money which they shouldn't have done and hit cash flow problems and had to borrow money. And thats on the back of them being successful, getting promoted, increasing their income etc.

Like I say, there is no model that goes without risks associated. I just struggle to see how we can entice big time investors (not that we have ever had any!!!) to take NTFC to where we all want it to be with a 51%-100% model. I may be wrong, we (Trust) have a working group on the case at the time, actively looking at all of the options. Im fully, 100% behind that in my Trust capacity. Like I say, Im not for or against any particular model at this stage; Im very open minded about it.

Lets not forget though that back in the day, we acquired a stake of 25% and that worked well for a while and from my perspective, it was the happiest time of being a Cobbler I have experienced. Culminating in our early success under Atkins. Soon after though, it became difficult as that stake was reduced, the directors at the time were less welcoming to fans involvement at board level and the move back to (essentially) full private ownership started again.

In an idealistic world, Id love to see the FA give a 5 year time line to make all clubs fan owned. So each and every club has a level playing field to operate in. But in the present, whatever model we try and go with, we need to factor in the financial challenges of operating a football club where income is so unpredictable.

Liking this discussion; its a big positive at the moment. I sincerely hope that in 12 months time we can look back at this time and view KT's legacy of 'saving us/steadying the ship' which at the time was the case. They put their half a million quid in and kept us going, and we won the title. Since then though, it has been nothing short of doom and gloom, faceless Chinese 'investors', relegation, a succession of managers, countless players only here for the lengthy lucrative contracts they were given and a decaying stadium/infrastructure. Sorry to go off piste!



Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: guest3114 on January 25, 2019, 13:39:29 pm
I cant basically!

The way I look at it, every model has dangers associated with it. For example, full ownership could mean that 'hard times' could occur for a whole multitude of different reasons. The collapse of ITV digital, wasn't foreseen and was the reason many clubs struggled for a period when it happened. For example, if we had been 100% fan owned back then, and budgeted sensibly based on expected income etc...we'd have had no 'back stop' (sorry  ;D ). Having an investor/s within such a model, what happens if said investor/s pulled out/died and left their shares to an undesirable person?

The challenge with football is that it is absolutely impossible to predict future income. Whilst to compete you have to dish out long contracts, pay out unexpected compensation (when a manager is sacked/Kasim cases!), sponsor pulls out/goes bust. Theres loads.

Wycombe have just agreed to sell up to private investors (according to their website - trust one), now that was because they spent money which they shouldn't have done and hit cash flow problems and had to borrow money. And thats on the back of them being successful, getting promoted, increasing their income etc.

Like I say, there is no model that goes without risks associated. I just struggle to see how we can entice big time investors (not that we have ever had any!!!) to take NTFC to where we all want it to be with a 51%-100% model. I may be wrong, we (Trust) have a working group on the case at the time, actively looking at all of the options. Im fully, 100% behind that in my Trust capacity. Like I say, Im not for or against any particular model at this stage; Im very open minded about it.

Lets not forget though that back in the day, we acquired a stake of 25% and that worked well for a while and from my perspective, it was the happiest time of being a Cobbler I have experienced. Culminating in our early success under Atkins. Soon after though, it became difficult as that stake was reduced, the directors at the time were less welcoming to fans involvement at board level and the move back to (essentially) full private ownership started again.

In an idealistic world, Id love to see the FA give a 5 year time line to make all clubs fan owned. So each and every club has a level playing field to operate in. But in the present, whatever model we try and go with, we need to factor in the financial challenges of operating a football club where income is so unpredictable.

Liking this discussion; its a big positive at the moment. I sincerely hope that in 12 months time we can look back at this time and view KT's legacy of 'saving us/steadying the ship' which at the time was the case. They put their half a million quid in and kept us going, and we won the title. Since then though, it has been nothing short of doom and gloom, faceless Chinese 'investors', relegation, a succession of managers, countless players only here for the lengthy lucrative contracts they were given and a decaying stadium/infrastructure. Sorry to go off piste!


Excellently put DC, some very valid points raised. I agree that the biggest issue is funding and has been my major concern with majority fan ownership from the start. However there is no getting away from the fact that the reason we are here is because of years of being subjected to the current ownership type of structure. If we were to go down a route that allows us to return to this position it makes the whole exercise futile. Therefore despite the considerable risks and drawbacks I feel it can be the only realistic course for us as a collective. That being said I do understand and respect the points you raise and it would be stupid not to aknowledge the dangers.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Grove on January 25, 2019, 17:11:09 pm
Absolutely nothing to convince me to back such a coup.
Does anyone know the exact running costs for a League 2 side, just to tread water for infinity


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: BedsCobb on January 25, 2019, 19:13:01 pm
Absolutely nothing to convince me to back such a coup.
Does anyone know the exact running costs for a League 2 side, just to tread water for infinity
Ask our current owners they've been doing it for over 3 years now.
Unless the club is being run to fully maximise its earning potential, which it has been falling well short on these past 20 years it'll always struggle.
A fan run club with help from local buisneses and local well wishers would without a shadow of doubt change this over night.
Thomas's ntfc or The public and business community of Northampton and county's NTFC,
Two entirely different organisations, with very differering
 hopes for our clubs long term future.
 Change is desperately needed.




Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: guest2724 on January 26, 2019, 07:10:01 am
I think that there are some very interesting posts on here and I would agree with The Vintage Cobbler that people need to approach this with an open mind.

The fundamental issue has to be money - if you read the recent Judges report you will see that the club has been operated at a significant loss for almost all of the last 15 years. In common with most football clubs, it has relied upon "external shareholder support". The Cardozas put in £6m to keep the club afloat over this period.

I haven't looked at the accounts since 2015 in detail but I would think that the present owners have had to support the club on similar lines.

If we take the average loss, £500,000 or so, this is an enormous amount of money to turn around from greater commercial income streams. What playing squad would you have left if you had to take this off the wages bill?

But more importantly, if the club was supporter owned, it would have to set prudent and risk averse budgets. Crudely, I think this would equate to a wages bill about 50% of what it is now before any extra income is factored in.

Money alone does not make a successful club - so it would be wrong for me to argue that because a stand alone supporter owned club would have a much lower playing budget we would be doomed. BUT, supporters would have to accept that the objectives of the club would be different from those currently. Now, apart from a few masochists, we all want promotion and success.

For example, a way to operate on lower budgets could be to prioritise youth and local players. It would truly be a community club..a miniature Athletic Bilbao, where nearly all the players are Basques..

To achieve any type of supporter owned/led club will need a very clearly defined strategic approach where the objectives are defined, supported widely and are realistic.






Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: DrillingCobbler on January 26, 2019, 07:34:38 am
I think that there are some very interesting posts on here and I would agree with The Vintage Cobbler that people need to approach this with an open mind.

The fundamental issue has to be money - if you read the recent Judges report you will see that the club has been operated at a significant loss for almost all of the last 15 years. In common with most football clubs, it has relied upon "external shareholder support". The Cardozas put in £6m to keep the club afloat over this period.

I haven't looked at the accounts since 2015 in detail but I would think that the present owners have had to support the club on similar lines.

If we take the average loss, £500,000 or so, this is an enormous amount of money to turn around from greater commercial income streams. What playing squad would you have left if you had to take this off the wages bill?

But more importantly, if the club was supporter owned, it would have to set prudent and risk averse budgets. Crudely, I think this would equate to a wages bill about 50% of what it is now before any extra income is factored in.

Money alone does not make a successful club - so it would be wrong for me to argue that because a stand alone supporter owned club would have a much lower playing budget we would be doomed. BUT, supporters would have to accept that the objectives of the club would be different from those currently. Now, apart from a few masochists, we all want promotion and success.

For example, a way to operate on lower budgets could be to prioritise youth and local players. It would truly be a community club..a miniature Athletic Bilbao, where nearly all the players are Basques..

To achieve any type of supporter owned/led club will need a very clearly defined strategic approach where the objectives are defined, supported widely and are realistic.






This echo's my outlook on it...unless the model includes someone with considerable funds to plug the gaps and help kick us on.

Im not going to profess to knowing anywhere near the exact numbers involved, but Id guess that we could run on a playing budget of around 1.2 million 'relatively risk free'. With that amount, you cant afford any hangers on, any expensive permanently injured players, or any 'Kasims'. It all has to click; like it did for Accrington last season. Like you've intimated, you'd also need 3 or 4 gems from the academy playing well for the first team on low wages to help boost up the quality that you cant buy in for peanuts.

From my understanding, theres a handful of clubs at this level that operate with wage budgets under a million quid a season. So I've no doubt that financially we could hold our own, BUT it wouldn't enable us to make any marquee signings.

That said; if the plan involved (gonna sound like Beds here) building the club up and infrastructure up over say a 5 year period to boost the overall income etc, if that meant long term we'd have a much better football club than we do now...surely thats worth looking into in some depth!

Lets face it. The current board have wasted at least 2 million quid in wages over the last 2 seasons that have got us no where, that money could have been spent elsewhere and we'd be no worse off in terms of league position! Hindsight of course.

It also worth noting that in the latter years, Big Dave ran the club pretty much on an even keel financially, and that was paying for 'personal stuff' as well so that proves it could be done. Whether that means additional stuff, like sorting out the East Stand, could be achieved is open to debate at this point.

What I believe the vast majority of us want though is a proper voice in the board room. Moving forward. A proper say, some decent influence into decisions made by the football club. So we have common ground amongst us. I do accept theres a large minority of fans who want to remain 90% plus privately owned at this point,  but that has got us absolutely no where and nearly made us go bust on three occasions during the last 30 years or so. And a decaying stadium/infrastructure that has had pretty much zero TLC during that entire time. Its hard to reason with the strongest of opposition to the idea, a bit like a Tory councillor knocking on doors in Moss Side Manchester looking to drum up votes! We will still try though!  ;D


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: guest2724 on January 26, 2019, 08:11:18 am
Just briefly about the finances, nobody outside the club knows the income and expenditure position. For the last published accounts (until June 2017) the loss is reported as £240,000. It's certainly true that under DC the club stemmed it's losses.

But I suppose my real point, lost in my waffle, is that a supporter owned club can never afford to get it wrong financially because they would have no where to go to raise the funds.

Now this isn't impossible to deal with in terms of budgeting: basically on day 1 the club would need 12 months cash flow in the bank and a budget set to make a small surplus which would be continually updated to take account of changes in forecast income and expenditure.

I think it can be done, I just think the capital required is higher than most people anticipate the budget is probably going to have to be smaller.

To ensure long-term survival, these basic "fiscal rules" can be written into the club's articles and memorandum of association.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: guest3114 on January 26, 2019, 09:01:02 am
This echo's my outlook on it...unless the model includes someone with considerable funds to plug the gaps and help kick us on.

Im not going to profess to knowing anywhere near the exact numbers involved, but Id guess that we could run on a playing budget of around 1.2 million 'relatively risk free'. With that amount, you cant afford any hangers on, any expensive permanently injured players, or any 'Kasims'. It all has to click; like it did for Accrington last season. Like you've intimated, you'd also need 3 or 4 gems from the academy playing well for the first team on low wages to help boost up the quality that you cant buy in for peanuts.

From my understanding, theres a handful of clubs at this level that operate with wage budgets under a million quid a season. So I've no doubt that financially we could hold our own, BUT it wouldn't enable us to make any marquee signings.

That said; if the plan involved (gonna sound like Beds here) building the club up and infrastructure up over say a 5 year period to boost the overall income etc, if that meant long term we'd have a much better football club than we do now...surely thats worth looking into in some depth!

Lets face it. The current board have wasted at least 2 million quid in wages over the last 2 seasons that have got us no where, that money could have been spent elsewhere and we'd be no worse off in terms of league position! Hindsight of course.

It also worth noting that in the latter years, Big Dave ran the club pretty much on an even keel financially, and that was paying for 'personal stuff' as well so that proves it could be done. Whether that means additional stuff, like sorting out the East Stand, could be achieved is open to debate at this point.

What I believe the vast majority of us want though is a proper voice in the board room. Moving forward. A proper say, some decent influence into decisions made by the football club. So we have common ground amongst us. I do accept theres a large minority of fans who want to remain 90% plus privately owned at this point,  but that has got us absolutely no where and nearly made us go bust on three occasions during the last 30 years or so. And a decaying stadium/infrastructure that has had pretty much zero TLC during that entire time. Its hard to reason with the strongest of opposition to the idea, a bit like a Tory councillor knocking on doors in Moss Side Manchester looking to drum up votes! We will still try though!  ;D
My blind estimate was that you would need to raise between 14 and 17 million for that very reason. Thatvestimation didnít go down as well as Iíd hoped if I am honest. I must admit though my evaluation was pretty much in line with yours. My guess is that amount would support the club for 5 - 7 years, fund a reasonable level of redevelopment and support the manager in the transfer market. After that period it would need to be self sustaining and that would immediately put it in a significant minority outside the top 2 divisions. Somewhat of a challenge to say the least. At this point in time I honestly believe we would get nowhere near that figure, but for me establishing what funding we could raise would be the very first stage in the process. Once that figure has been ascertained then the business plan and structure would follow to suit. I.e cut your cloth accordingly. However, no romance with no finance as the song goes. At least thatís my view.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: BedsCobb on January 26, 2019, 11:27:07 am
Cardoza didn't put £6m into the club, even he knew that kind of  investment would be put to better use by improving the decrepit infrastructure to make the club more self sufficient.
Most of the figures bandied about are based on the very low current level of turnover of a poorly performing L2 side or one struggling in L1 unable to maximise its earning potential.
Both Thomas and Cardoza were not interested in the long term financial  health of a club they wouldn't be part of.
But saying that near on 20 years later we still find ourselves stuck in the starting blocks watching all others progress to some degree.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: guest3114 on January 26, 2019, 14:29:27 pm
Cardoza didn't put £6m into the club, even he knew that kind of  investment would be put to better use by improving the decrepit infrastructure to make the club more self sufficient.
Most of the figures bandied about are based on the very low current level of turnover of a poorly performing L2 side or one struggling in L1 unable to maximise its earning potential.
Both Thomas and Cardoza were not interested in the long term financial  health of a club they wouldn't be part of.
But saying that near on 20 years later we still find ourselves stuck in the starting blocks watching all others progress to some degree.
Beds, 2 things, it is my understanding that according to the summing up of HHJ Simon Barker QC 6 million is exactly what the Cardozas put into the club? In fact that was at the heart of the case as far as I could tell. Apparently thatís roughly what they lost over their tenure? Secondly itís all irrelevant because I have a feeling your predictions about what is feasible are about to come under the scrutiny of some individuals qualified to make an informed judgment on the subject. Perhaps everything you have claimed and stated as achievable will come to fruition and I will be eating a large slice of humble pie? Anyway our new bloke has just scored so I canít stop to chat.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: meccanostand on January 27, 2019, 09:45:57 am
NTFC Trust community ownership mission statement and launch of Project Proud To Be here. Public meeting being organised. You can download the full statement via the link.

https://nenequirer.com/2019/01/24/cobblers-supporters-trust-launches-project-proud-to-be/ (https://nenequirer.com/2019/01/24/cobblers-supporters-trust-launches-project-proud-to-be/)


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: BackOfTheNet on January 27, 2019, 11:01:21 am
(https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/375/cpsprodpb/0C6A/production/_85487130_citizensmith_bbc.jpg)

Viva la Cobblers!


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: everbrite on January 27, 2019, 11:25:36 am
(https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/375/cpsprodpb/0C6A/production/_85487130_citizensmith_bbc.jpg)

Viva la Cobblers!

Love It!


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: meccanostand on January 28, 2019, 07:11:55 am
Notts County put up for sale yesterday. Going to need a shedload of Arab Sheikh's to turn up to take all the EFL clubs actively up for sale to the promised land of the Premier League.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: southofthecounty on January 28, 2019, 08:42:33 am
Notts County put up for sale yesterday. Going to need a shedload of Arab Sheikh's to turn up to take all the EFL clubs actively up for sale to the promised land of the Premier League.
I'm surprised no cash rich ex Prem pros have ever purchased a league club as a vanity project.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: meccanostand on January 28, 2019, 09:32:09 am
I'm surprised no cash rich ex Prem pros have ever purchased a league club as a vanity project.

Salford the nearest example.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Terryfenwickatemyhamster on January 28, 2019, 16:57:26 pm
This echo's my outlook on it...unless the model includes someone with considerable funds to plug the gaps and help kick us on.



So how is it fan owned then Shane?


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: guest3230 on January 28, 2019, 17:02:39 pm
So how is it fan owned then Shane?

Its not!


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Terryfenwickatemyhamster on January 28, 2019, 17:04:32 pm
Its not!

I know...  ;D



Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: guest3230 on January 28, 2019, 17:32:47 pm
I know...  ;D



I know you know  ;D


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: ntfclad on January 28, 2019, 17:33:51 pm
NTFC Trust community ownership mission statement and launch of Project Proud To Be here. Public meeting being organised. You can download the full statement via the link.

https://nenequirer.com/2019/01/24/cobblers-supporters-trust-launches-project-proud-to-be/ (https://nenequirer.com/2019/01/24/cobblers-supporters-trust-launches-project-proud-to-be/)

Good statement but means **** all in practise. Go and start the Phoenix club you were so desperate for 3 years ago.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: meccanostand on January 28, 2019, 17:58:41 pm
Good statement but means **** all in practise. Go and start the Phoenix club you were so desperate for 3 years ago.

Haha nice try. There were loads of ideas knocking about at the time at the trust crisis meeting and i wasnt even the one pushing a phoenix club as random will tell you. Would a pheonix club have been a realistic option if the club was to be lumbered with a £10.25 ++ million debt plus an unfinished stand. Yeah probably and that was the crisis we were dealing with at the time.



Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Vintage Cobbler on January 28, 2019, 18:34:05 pm
Its not!

Perhaps from what is being said it might be described potentially as a Joint Venture Partnership?  But first let the Trust work on the business model and the possibilities and then you may comment sensibly.  Before that happens I think some of you are jumping the gun.

PS Doing well aren't we on and off the pitch under the present ownership structure?


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: guest3230 on January 28, 2019, 19:14:09 pm
Perhaps from what is being said it might be described potentially as a Joint Venture Partnership?  But first let the Trust work on the business model and the possibilities and then you may comment sensibly.  Before that happens I think some of you are jumping the gun.

PS Doing well aren't we on and off the pitch under the present ownership structure?

On what basis should we trust the trust to do a good job? Playing devils advocate a bit here btw...

Doing fine off the pitch, aren't we?


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Vintage Cobbler on January 28, 2019, 19:27:19 pm
As I keep commenting, don't get ahead of yourself. See what the Trust comes up with and then, by all means, comment. 


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: guest3230 on January 28, 2019, 19:33:56 pm
As I keep commenting, don't get ahead of yourself. See what the Trust comes up with and then, by all means, comment. 

A fair argument but what about those on your side of the argument that are not doing that?


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Vintage Cobbler on January 28, 2019, 19:53:15 pm
I speak for myself only and, yes, I think we should all keep our powder dry until there is some detail known.  The we can all attend the Trust meeting and express our views.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Terryfenwickatemyhamster on January 28, 2019, 22:46:27 pm
I speak for myself only and, yes, I think we should all keep our powder dry until there is some detail known.  The we can all attend the Trust meeting and express our views.

I think we are keeping our powder dry. Thereís no doubt about that


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: MCHammer on January 29, 2019, 01:18:58 am
Let's hope it is an open and honest debate from all involved.  There are definitely positives to fan ownership but let's be honest about the challenges it poses and what the real long term plan is.

There are definitely some in favour who have a very idealistic way of viewing the way football clubs and football in general should be run without recognising reality.

Let's not just trot out examples like Wycombe by simply looking at the league position compared to ours.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: BedsCobb on January 29, 2019, 07:48:23 am
Let's hope it is an open and honest debate from all involved.  There are definitely positives to fan ownership but let's be honest about the challenges it poses and what the real long term plan is.

There are definitely some in favour who have a very idealistic way of viewing the way football clubs and football in general should be run without recognising reality.

Let's not just trot out examples like Wycombe by simply looking at the league position compared to ours.
Have the last near on 20 years been idealistic,
With the club being run in an ideal view of how a football club with a 300,000 catchment should be run?
The answers no, so major changes to the set up is long overdue and needed.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: meccanostand on January 29, 2019, 08:03:02 am
Let's hope it is an open and honest debate from all involved.  There are definitely positives to fan ownership but let's be honest about the challenges it poses and what the real long term plan is.

There are definitely some in favour who have a very idealistic way of viewing the way football clubs and football in general should be run without recognising reality.

Let's not just trot out examples like Wycombe by simply looking at the league position compared to ours.


Some good points there.

Fan-ownership is probably not the best term unless a 100% model is adopted. Community ownership is probably a better fit for models that might involve the local business community and with at least 11 EFL clubs actively up for sale we might not be the only club looking at it.

Idealistic views can also be said to cover those who believe that private owners gift the club money at will and/or that there is a billionaire coming to take us to the Premier League. Those 2 are pretty prevalent.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Terryfenwickatemyhamster on January 29, 2019, 10:16:59 am
Can we just clear up one thing here.. As far as I am aware THERE IS NO FAN OWNERSHIP ON THE HORIZON. So let's not call it that.



Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: guest3230 on January 29, 2019, 10:21:49 am
Can we just clear up one thing here.. As far as I am aware THERE IS NO FAN OWNERSHIP ON THE HORIZON. So let's not call it that.



Whaaaaaaat!!
 ;D


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: MCHammer on January 29, 2019, 12:31:15 pm
Fan-ownership is probably not the best term unless a 100% model is adopted. Community ownership is probably a better fit for models that might involve the local business community and with at least 11 EFL clubs actively up for sale we might not be the only club looking at it.

Can you expand on what you mean by community ownership as opposed to fan ownership and how local business fit in to a community model such as that.  Also are there any examples of where this is happening already in this format?

Idealistic views can also be said to cover those who believe that private owners gift the club money at will and/or that there is a billionaire coming to take us to the Premier League. Those 2 are pretty prevalent.

In fairness there are more examples of that being the reality than some of the other proposals currently being made.

What I meant in my original point was that there are many people like yourself who believe football is broken and should be much different.  Billionaire owners, Sky money, Premier League, real fans priced out and so on.  All of which I agree with you and I think most also do.  However that is the reality even at lower levels for all clubs.  You can attempt to change how your club is run but you won't be changing the environment it exists in and there are plenty of harsh realities of what that means for the future.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: meccanostand on January 29, 2019, 12:38:25 pm
Can you expand on what you mean by community ownership as opposed to fan ownership and how local business fit in to a community model such as that.  Also are there any examples of where this is happening already in this format?

In fairness there are more examples of that being the reality than some of the other proposals currently being made.

What I meant in my original point was that there are many people like yourself who believe football is broken and should be much different.  Billionaire owners, Sky money, Premier League, real fans priced out and so on.  All of which I agree with you and I think most also do.  However that is the reality even at lower levels for all clubs.  You can attempt to change how your club is run but you won't be changing the environment it exists in and there are plenty of harsh realities of what that means for the future.

Sorry mate I'm not going to preempt the meeting. That is for the Trust to present. I will be taking a look at community ownership at various clubs though via the NeneQuirer and will forward you it though. Cheers.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: MCHammer on January 29, 2019, 13:34:40 pm
Sorry mate I'm not going to preempt the meeting. That is for the Trust to present. I will be taking a look at community ownership at various clubs though via the NeneQuirer and will forward you it though. Cheers.

Strange answer.  Does this need to be added to my So Many Secrets thread?

I called it "Fan Ownership" YOU said "It's more Community Ownership alongside local business".  To paraphrase I simply asked you to elaborate on what that meant and what the differences are.  I'm not asking you to preempt any meeting and even if I did why would that be so bad in this open and honest world we are moving towards?

If you don't know the answer that's fine.  If you do what would be the problem in helping others understand?


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: barton cobbler on January 29, 2019, 13:59:30 pm
I'd like to think, in the ideal world, we would all like a club owned and run by a community of fans and business people who are Northampton people at heart. So we have a club that is run for the benefit of the supporters and not run with the idea of lining some peoples pockets.
     Has anyone got a problem with this? If not, then that's what we should all be pushing for.
   


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: BackOfTheNet on January 29, 2019, 14:25:24 pm
I'd like to think, in the ideal world, we would all like a club owned and run by a community of fans and business people who are Northampton people at heart. So we have a club that is run for the benefit of the supporters and not run with the idea of lining some peoples pockets.
     Has anyone got a problem with this? If not, then that's what we should all be pushing for.
   

We're back to idealism vs realism again though, aren't we? It's a bit like saying I wanted to buy a house so I went to a bank and got a mortgage. The thing is, that bank have no interest in me, my house or my family, they just want to make a profit out of me so, having thought about it, I now wish I'd borrowed from friends and family instead.

The fact is though, your family and friends probably wouldn't have the means or the generosity to loan you the money you needed so you turned to the bank because it was a lot easier and they were willing to help, but only in return for a profit because no, funnily enough they are a business and did indeed only help you out because they saw a business opportunity.

You can agonise over it all you like, but you are now morally and legally obliged to let the bank make the profit they hoped to make out of you because, at the end of the day, you now have the house you wanted.

If you go back through that and replace "house" with "football club", "friends and family" with "supporters" and "bank" with "KT and DB" and that's the way I see the situation. You might not like it, but that's where we are.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: clarkeysntfc on January 29, 2019, 14:59:09 pm
I'd like to think, in the ideal world, we would all like a club owned and run by a community of fans and business people who are Northampton people at heart. So we have a club that is run for the benefit of the supporters and not run with the idea of lining some peoples pockets.
     Has anyone got a problem with this? If not, then that's what we should all be pushing for.
   

Are you saying that the current board are in it to line their pockets?


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: tcobb on January 29, 2019, 15:19:07 pm
Barton, you state that all the fans would like a club that is owned and run by a community of fans and business people from Northampton. Im not from Northampton neither am i keen on fan ownership, so no, your statement is incorrect.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: barton cobbler on January 29, 2019, 15:28:09 pm
So you don't think there would be enough people willing to back a local consortium to buy NTFC? I think there would be if the selling price reflects what you are buying, which is a company with very few assets, NTFC don't own the stadium or training ground and very few players of any value.
     We shall see


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: barton cobbler on January 29, 2019, 15:35:39 pm
Barton, you state that all the fans would like a club that is owned and run by a community of fans and business people from Northampton. Im not from Northampton neither am i keen on fan ownership, so no, your statement is incorrect.
OK , but you haven't given a reason why. Answer this one question, would you rather NTFC be owned by a group that put the needs of the club first and foremost or owned by  private individuals who are looking to make money out of NTFC?
PS I said "Northampton people at heart" not "from Northampton", I don't live in Northampton either.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: guest3114 on January 29, 2019, 15:56:15 pm
Donít over complicate this, itís really quite simple. There are 3 options on the table, take your pick. Majority fan owned, minority fan owned, left alone. Make your choice, if there is enough passion and support for a particular option then look at taking it to the next stage. If not, option 3 it is? Deal with this in manageable chunks or it will be paralysis by analysis.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Terryfenwickatemyhamster on January 29, 2019, 16:53:05 pm
Donít over complicate this, itís really quite simple. There are 3 options on the table, take your pick. Majority fan owned, minority fan owned, left alone. Make your choice, if there is enough passion and support for a particular option then look at taking it to the next stage. If not, option 3 it is? Deal with this in manageable chunks or it will be paralysis by analysis.

There are no options on the table if you don't meet the asking price.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: tcobb on January 29, 2019, 17:19:35 pm
A Lot of people seem to think the asking price is £1, they might be in for a bit of a shock.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: clarkeysntfc on January 29, 2019, 17:25:04 pm
OK , but you haven't given a reason why. Answer this one question, would you rather NTFC be owned by a group that put the needs of the club first and foremost or owned by  private individuals who are looking to make money out of NTFC?
PS I said "Northampton people at heart" not "from Northampton", I don't live in Northampton either.

Have you got any evidence that our owners are looking to make money from NTFC and are not placing the club's needs first?


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: FezNTFC on January 29, 2019, 17:46:27 pm
Have you got any evidence that our owners are looking to make money from NTFC and are not placing the club's needs first?
Barton's post doesn't refer to either Kelvin Thomas or David Bower does it? To me it appears that he's posing a hypothetical question to a fellow poster.



Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: guest3230 on January 29, 2019, 17:48:26 pm
Barton's post doesn't refer to either Kelvin Thomas or David Bower does it? To me it appears that he's posing a hypothetical question to a fellow poster.



 :D


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: FezNTFC on January 29, 2019, 17:49:10 pm
:D
We can all play lawyer if we want ;D


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: clarkeysntfc on January 29, 2019, 17:52:22 pm
Barton's post doesn't refer to either Kelvin Thomas or David Bower does it? To me it appears that he's posing a hypothetical question to a fellow poster.



So fan ownership is hypothetically better because hypothetically we may have a private owner who hypothetically might be taking money out of the club for some hypotherical personal benefit, when hypothetically a fan / community owned club would not face this issue?

Just want to clarify.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: guest3230 on January 29, 2019, 17:52:42 pm
We can all play lawyer if we want ;D

Ha! Enjoyed this.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Deepcut Cobbler on January 29, 2019, 18:09:10 pm
A pedantic argument/discussion, shall I get my popcorn?


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Grove on January 29, 2019, 19:46:47 pm
I see moves ahead for a 'hostile bid' for a peynd


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: guest3114 on January 29, 2019, 22:15:06 pm
There are no options on the table if you don't meet the asking price.
Absolutely Hammy, however find out what you want, then work on how and if you can get it in that order. Like I said manageable chunks. If fan owned is the preferred option it wouldnt hurt to establish how much each individual would be prepared to invest in shareholdingís from £0 up to whatever their maximum budget would allow? It would be necessary to keep in mind that saying it is one thing, obviously doing it is completely another proposition. However it would also be necessary to have some sort of indicator to work with. If the figure is deemed realistic in terms of feasibility (who and how this is decided is a point of debate in itself) you move forward to the next stage, if it isnít you donít, simple. I say simple, the next stage in my view would be decidedly more complicated.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: meccanostand on February 01, 2019, 11:30:12 am
Interesting update here from Kelvin Thomas on various things including positive dialogue on the Trust's Community Ownership discussion. Good to see the club looking at it with an open mind. Real chance to drive the club forwards incorporating the Trust's Project Proud To Be and possibly doubly so with the board's redevelopment plans.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=Zx1RW55TNU8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=Zx1RW55TNU8)


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: MCHammer on February 01, 2019, 12:39:36 pm
Interesting update here from Kelvin Thomas on various things including positive dialogue on the Trust's Community Ownership discussion. Good to see the club looking at it with an open mind. Real chance to drive the club forwards incorporating the Trust's Project Proud To Be and possibly doubly so with the board's redevelopment plans.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=Zx1RW55TNU8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=Zx1RW55TNU8)

Are you suggesting the Trust could work in a community ownership with KT and his development plans?


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: random on February 01, 2019, 13:57:48 pm
Working with KT could be a win-win but his history re fans would suggest not possible


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: BedsCobb on February 01, 2019, 16:40:02 pm
Working with KT could be a win-win but his history re fans would suggest not possible

KT is only a small investor and todate hasn't shown or said anything to suggest he has the want or capability or knowhow to build up a football club.
Also him having said he needs to spend more time at home the US, it might be better for him to take over at Florida alligators fc.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Terryfenwickatemyhamster on February 01, 2019, 22:05:52 pm
Working with KT could be a win-win but his history re fans would suggest not possible


What history is that...?


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: meccanostand on February 03, 2019, 22:19:56 pm
Trust's community ownership investigation to move to public meeting stage.

https://twitter.com/ntfc_trust/status/1092130833043992577 (https://twitter.com/ntfc_trust/status/1092130833043992577)


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: tcobb on February 04, 2019, 08:44:02 am
The statement uses the phrase "we" an awful lot.
Is "we" the Trust board ? Is is "we" the supporters the Trust represents ?


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: tcobb on February 04, 2019, 10:14:21 am
Wandering Cobbler, very good summary there. Whilst I agree that everybody is entitled to their own opinion , you are quite wide of the mark with your opening statement. A lot of people do not prefer a Club to be owned by the fans.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: guest2724 on February 04, 2019, 12:23:46 pm
I would be interested TC in why you think that this might be the case?


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Deepcut Cobbler on February 04, 2019, 12:39:50 pm
I would be interested TC in why you think that this might be the case?

Conversely, why are you 'sure' that it isn't?


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: meccanostand on February 04, 2019, 12:51:35 pm
https://twitter.com/TeynEdition/status/1087440903751507970 (https://twitter.com/TeynEdition/status/1087440903751507970)

In any case, would think that most fans would wait and make an informed decision rather than jumping the gun prematurely.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Battery Man on February 04, 2019, 12:52:04 pm
I think the only thing putting people off backing a fan owned club is the uncertainty on financing the club, however, we have seen many times over the last 35 to 40 years that having a private owner in no way means a club is securely and well financed. I think fan ownership is certainly worth looking at in some depth, as if the finances can be put in place at least to ensure we are in no worse a position than now then why not. At least we would know the owners only wants whats best for the club.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: BedsCobb on February 04, 2019, 13:16:16 pm
The only reason that people could oppose the concept of 'community ownership' is a financial one surely? All things being equal, I'm sure almost every football supporter in the world would prefer their club to be owned by supporters rather than individuals..

It is a very legitimate argument that there are very few successful fan/community ownership models that have worked in the long run in the UK. However, this doesn't mean that it couldn't work for the cobblers...each club's circumstances are different, the 'assets' of each club are different and the skills and expertise of the supporters are different.

I can't see why everybody shouldn't welcome the Trust's exploration of options. It is encouraging that the present owners are prepared to at least talk to the supporters trust. You can think about a huge number of clubs where supporters are completely cut out of any dialogue with the club. Some club owners have even resorted to legal action for defamation against supporters who post adverse comments on notice boards etc.

Whatever you might think of the present owners, they deserve quite a lot of credit for their openness..

The other things about the club is the fact that it has to be run as a business. It has two ways of operating: it either operates at a loss that requires financial support from its owners or it breaks even/makes a profit and doesn't need that financial support.

Historically, since the turn of 2000, the club has operated at a loss almost every year - in total it lost £6m under the Cardoza's (Im not quite sure why someone queried this figure the other day) and for the last published accounts the club lost about £250,000. The next accounts are due at the end of March but in KT's interview he alludes to making a loss this year as well.

Therefore, in any credible community owned club there will have to be a recognition of the fact that the club is not currently financially self sustaining and hasn't been largely for many years - this is a FACT!

For all of the claims about future revenue streams and the good ideas on here, the reality is the club needs more resources or to cut its expenditure. But even cutting expenditure is not enough - were the club to ever be 100% supporter owned no bank would ever support this model without a substantial cash reserve in case the club got into financial difficulties - this again is fact.

Therefore, the idea of a hybrid ownership model makes sense because the 'larger private owners' might be the 'lenders of the last resort' in case of difficulty, but they in turn will want control..who would invest, say £50,000 each, into a club where the spending decisions are being made by other people?

Hence NBC's idea in 2013 that the club needed to be put onto a more sustainable financial footing (i.e to become profitable) by using the land around the East Stand. What happened next of course was a fiasco but the idea was very good even if the execution was very poor.

Now, KT and others have the chance to work with NBC and private developers to deliver on NBC's idea of 2013 - i.e. to use the land to generate profits to pay for the development of a ground and club that is financially sustainable.

There are a great number of issues around the basic concept and nobody outside NBC or the club know what the basis of the discussions currently are.What are NBCs objectives? How does KT see the future?

It is a very difficult situation: on the one hand NBC is an elected body and as council tax payers everybody has a right to know what is going on.

At the same time, the club and land around the East Stand is in private hands and why should private developers explain to the public what they are up to? Do you show your bank balance to the neighbours?

So in summary, I think the Supporters Trust is absolutely right to explore models of supporter and community ownership at this time. I hope that NBC and KT are in a position as soon as possible to explain their plans and the supporters and council tax payers van then evaluate them.

Now for three 3 points...


You can not claim to have lost £6m over 10 years because you are trading at 25% of your capabilities  due to very poor infrastructure , bad management and zero growth.
How much of  that £6m could've had us trading 50% up over several years of he sustained such losses?
For years we have tried to build teams that could achieve promotion out of league 2 but only to sell the back bone of the team for a fraction of there worth when Sixfields inadequacy kicks in.
With a supporters/ local buisneses working together with full understanding of the job in hand, all involved would soon see steady improvements in all the key areas that increase turnover, resulting in more breaking even than losses.
So KT has announced we expect to show a loss.
After 20 years trying to buck the trend of a well trod path, no one should really be surprised.  


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Manwork04 on February 04, 2019, 13:48:34 pm
Thomas isn't going to sell a 50% share to anyone that does not meet his valuation, currently about £2m.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: meccanostand on February 07, 2019, 10:55:05 am
Fan-owned Newport County through to FA Cup Round 5 at home to Man City. Team features ex-Cobbler Regan Poole.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-47143918 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-47143918)


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: guest3114 on February 07, 2019, 20:09:22 pm
I think the only thing putting people off backing a fan owned club is the uncertainty on financing the club, however, we have seen many times over the last 35 to 40 years that having a private owner in no way means a club is securely and well financed. I think fan ownership is certainly worth looking at in some depth, as if the finances can be put in place at least to ensure we are in no worse a position than now then why not. At least we would know the owners only wants whats best for the club.
Donít kid yourself, itís not the only thing. Along with a couple of other points the thing concerning me is that some of the individuals on here end up in a position of significant influence in the decision making process. I have visions of the board room being like scenes from the Mad Hatters tea party.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: FezNTFC on February 07, 2019, 20:18:07 pm
Donít kid yourself, itís not the only thing. Along with a couple of other points the thing concerning me is that some of the individuals on here end up in a position of significant influence in the decision making process. I have visions of the board room being like scenes from the Mad Hatters tea party.
To clarify again.

Another important thing to remember is that the current Trust board would not be running the show. They would bring in professionals to run the football club. No supporters owned club is run by the people who used to run the car boot sales or make the coffees on matchdays.

Add 'argue on the forum' to that list ;D


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: guest3114 on February 07, 2019, 20:41:35 pm
To clarify again.

Add 'argue on the forum' to that list ;D
To continue the row, who are the ďtheyĒ who bring in the professionals?


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: FezNTFC on February 07, 2019, 20:51:07 pm
To continue the row, who are the ďtheyĒ who bring in the professionals?
I don't know. We don't know what the model is yet or whether it would get to that stage.

It if was majority fan owned I assume the Trust board would bring someone in, most likely with the aid of Supporters Direct who would have plenty of contacts within that field.

If there's a hybrid model of fan ownership and a private individual or consortium, those individuals or groups would probably want some say on who runs the show.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: guest3114 on February 07, 2019, 20:54:49 pm
I don't know. We don't know what the model is yet or whether it would get to that stage.

It if was majority fan owned I assume the Trust board would bring someone in, most likely with the aid of Supporters Direct who would have plenty of contacts within that field.

If there's a hybrid model of fan ownership and a private individual or consortium, those individuals or groups would probably want some say on who runs the show.
Understood, so to repeat my original point, the thing concerning me is that some of the individuals on here end up in a position of significant influence in the decision making process. I have visions of the board room being like scenes from the Mad Hatters tea party. Get me a piece of chalk someone?


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Battery Man on February 07, 2019, 20:58:45 pm
Understood, so to repeat my original point, the thing concerning me is that some of the individuals on here end up in a position of significant influence in the decision making process. I have visions of the board room being like scenes from the Mad Hatters tea party. Get me a piece of chalk someone?

I do share your concerns on this. Letís see what the trust are proposing and I think after that we will see if the idea could work.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: FezNTFC on February 07, 2019, 21:02:50 pm
Understood, so to repeat my original point, the thing concerning me is that some of the individuals on here end up in a position of significant influence in the decision making process. I have visions of the board room being like scenes from the Mad Hatters tea party. Get me a piece of chalk someone?
I understood 'decision making process' to mean the running of the club itself, as you mentioned the boardroom. Hence my response.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Alfred on February 07, 2019, 21:06:19 pm
Fan-owned Newport County through to FA Cup Round 5 at home to Man City. Team features ex-Cobbler Regan Poole.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-47143918 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-47143918)

Interesting twist on the sustainability of fan owned Newport County,  the harsh reality of fan owned life ?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/44255428


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: guest3114 on February 07, 2019, 21:09:29 pm
I understood 'decision making process' to mean the running of the club itself, as you mentioned the boardroom. Hence my response.
No Fez, the decision making process is making all and any decisions regarding the formation, structure and running of the new club including recruitment. Joking aside my point is that someone is going to make or guide decisions surrounding these issues and I have no idea as to the caliber or quality of those individuals (although I have formed an opinion about some). Thatís fine until the opportunity to put in a few grand becomes a possibility, it adds a certain hesitation for me. I take your point in the context you make it though.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: tcobb on February 07, 2019, 21:26:42 pm
So even with their FA Cup success of this and last season, Newport are looking at having a minority fan ownership. Because of the losses they would have suffered and will need external investment.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: guest3114 on February 07, 2019, 21:35:22 pm
So even with their FA Cup success of this and last season, Newport are looking at having a minority fan ownership. Because of the losses they would have suffered and will need external investment.
Oh dear, now youíve done it. Stand by for references to catchment area, fans / local businesses in blissful partnership for the greater good and finances raised solely from food and beverage sales from the Mad Hatter himself? In an ironic twist of fate can I just add that Luton happens to be the home of The Hatters.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: guest3114 on February 07, 2019, 21:56:40 pm
Interesting twist on the sustainability of fan owned Newport County,  the harsh reality of fan owned life ?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/44255428
My take on this is that it is imperative that you raise enough finance to support the club in the medium term including a contingency for the unforeseen. As previously stated my blind opinion is 7 to 8 million from the fan base with 49% of the total value from corporate bodies in addition. It is difficult to convey the scale of achievement it would be to succeed with that proposal. Even then be under no illusion that there would still be significant risk attached. As I said, pure guesswork on my part, but if there isnít the appetite for a proposal along these lines then we are wasting our time. However, it is possible and the end result could be the answer to everything.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: meccanostand on February 08, 2019, 09:29:38 am
Interesting twist on the sustainability of fan owned Newport County,  the harsh reality of fan owned life ?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/44255428

That's an old story. They have made adjustments to put them on a more secure financial footing since then.

They also have rent issues that we don't have to deal with. the current board have put us on a good footing to explore community ownership. What's more we are in a position to cherry pick the best from the private and community owned models.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: meccanostand on February 08, 2019, 09:33:27 am
I don't know. We don't know what the model is yet or whether it would get to that stage.

It if was majority fan owned I assume the Trust board would bring someone in, most likely with the aid of Supporters Direct who would have plenty of contacts within that field.

If there's a hybrid model of fan ownership and a private individual or consortium, those individuals or groups would probably want some say on who runs the show.

Not much point discussing this yet as it's just abstract discussion without the models being presented.

Elections to the board would make the idea that cranks would get roles laughable. There are far more meritocratic systems available than the one that delivered Michael McRitchie Anthony and David Cardoza to positions of destructive and supreme influence.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: guest3114 on February 08, 2019, 10:13:00 am
Not much point discussing this yet as it's just abstract discussion without the models being presented.

Elections to the board would make the idea that cranks would get roles laughable. There are far more meritocratic systems available than the one that delivered Michael McRitchie Anthony and David Cardoza to positions of destructive and supreme influence.
Donít you believe it, people said that about Donald Trump. Iíve personally met people that sit on boards who shouldnít be trusted with a box of matches.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Alfred on February 08, 2019, 11:09:09 am
That's an old story. They have made adjustments to put them on a more secure financial footing since then.

But still relevant to the overall picture,  or are we not allowed a balance view.  The fact remains at that point in time fan ownership wasnt deemed sustainable,  sorry if this dosnt fit your agenda.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: BackOfTheNet on February 08, 2019, 11:21:01 am
Donít you believe it, people said that about Donald Trump. Iíve personally met people that sit on boards who shouldnít be trusted with a box of matches.

I've met people who sit on boards that I'm amazed can dress themselves in the morning, never mind be trusted with a box of matches. I bumped into one such person I'd worked with when he was visiting the next company I worked for. I'd just left my office and heard a banging sound coming from my right. I looked around and saw this imbecile's face pressed against the glass window in a door. He'd somehow managed to trap himself in the fire escape stairwell. I'm still not sure who was more surprised to see the other, me or him.

I probably should have let him out, really... ;D


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: meccanostand on February 08, 2019, 11:26:15 am
But still relevant to the overall picture,  or are we not allowed a balance view.  The fact remains at that point in time fan ownership wasnt deemed sustainable,  sorry if this dosnt fit your agenda.

Yeah of course relevant to the overall view but the Newport model and how it has been adjusted needs more analysis than a couple of lines on here.

The story you referenced is old and it's more functional to adopt a fluid approach to what is happening on the ground there.

In any case, Newport are just one model, you can't poo poo the whole idea of community ownership with reference to the Exiles. Also let's reference the profits and losses of the current NTFC administration for a rounded conversation.



Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: BedsCobb on February 08, 2019, 12:29:19 pm
Oh dear, now youíve done it. Stand by for references to catchment area, fans / local businesses in blissful partnership for the greater good and finances raised solely from food and beverage sales from the Mad Hatter himself? In an ironic twist of fate can I just add that Luton happens to be the home of The Hatters.
Stand by everything I said as a way to a means to getting our club moving in the right direction.
We cant continuously be held ransom to land acquirers who use the club as a way to a means that have zero interest in the clubs future well being beyond the sell on date.
Do we start a 4th season with these time wasters in charge?

Comparing Newport to Northampton is quite ironic as they are both the 2 worst supported teams in the football league.
But which of these 2 basket cases do you think will show some sustainable year on year growth first?


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Deepcut Cobbler on February 08, 2019, 12:41:28 pm
I've met people who sit on boards that I'm amazed can dress themselves in the morning, never mind be trusted with a box of matches. I bumped into one such person I'd worked with when he was visiting the next company I worked for. I'd just left my office and heard a banging sound coming from my right. I looked around and saw this imbecile's face pressed against the glass window in a door. He'd somehow managed to trap himself in the fire escape stairwell. I'm still not sure who was more surprised to see the other, me or him.

I probably should have let him out, really... ;D

You probably shouldn't have pushed him out there in the first place?   ;D


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Zen Master on February 08, 2019, 12:46:29 pm

Comparing Newport to Northampton is quite ironic as they are both the 2 worst supported teams in the football league.
But which of these 2 basket cases do you think will show some sustainable year on year growth first?

There was me thinking we had the 6th highest average in this division and higher than 8 teams in the division above.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: BackOfTheNet on February 08, 2019, 12:51:25 pm

Comparing Newport to Northampton is quite ironic as they are both the 2 worst supported teams in the football league.


According to the figures published on the Chron website today, Newport are 82nd out of 92 and we're 65th.

You'd think with fan ownership the local community and businesses would have rallied around much more to place them way higher than us in that table...

(and yes, catchment area, proximity to Cardiff, blah blah blah - it's said fairly tongue-in-cheek before anyone goes off on one)


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: random on February 08, 2019, 13:02:38 pm
The three examples we should be looking at are Swansea (rise from 4th to Prem) Accrington and Burton. 

Swansea as they had a plan to build a football club with a vision of what they wanted and how things would work  ie: They told the manager what type and style of football they wanted and they had to use the backroom staff already in place

Accrington and Burton both are owned by fans who are businessmen tuned to modern day policies and practises, whose clubs are punching well above their weight

I still struggle to understand how some fans are so against the above, especially when you factor in the last 10 years at NTFC. But then i believe that many fans don't help as they can only focus on player acquisitions and that is their sole judgement on a chairman, despite the obvious factor that randomly bringing in average players on high wages f***s up the club every time


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Deepcut Cobbler on February 08, 2019, 14:03:29 pm
The three examples we should be looking at are Swansea (rise from 4th to Prem) Accrington and Burton. 

Swansea as they had a plan to build a football club with a vision of what they wanted and how things would work  ie: They told the manager what type and style of football they wanted and they had to use the backroom staff already in place

Accrington and Burton both are owned by fans who are businessmen tuned to modern day policies and practises, whose clubs are punching well above their weight

I still struggle to understand how some fans are so against the above, especially when you factor in the last 10 years at NTFC. But then i believe that many fans don't help as they can only focus on player acquisitions and that is their sole judgement on a chairman, despite the obvious factor that randomly bringing in average players on high wages f***s up the club every time

I am not against the idea of something that progresses NTFC in whatever format, however regarding the 'Fan Ownership' projection, how is it going to be funded?
I haven't seen a credible answer to that one yet.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: random on February 08, 2019, 14:13:33 pm
You have you just choose to ignore it Deepcut

I am pretty sure that funds would be raised to at the very least keep the club in the 4th division.

The only problem at the minute is as a direct result of our current board total failure of running our football club ie: massively overspending on crap players and not giving the managers a decent football club to help motivate those players. Therefore the overheads are way too high in terms of players





Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: guest3114 on February 08, 2019, 14:14:24 pm
I've met people who sit on boards that I'm amazed can dress themselves in the morning, never mind be trusted with a box of matches. I bumped into one such person I'd worked with when he was visiting the next company I worked for. I'd just left my office and heard a banging sound coming from my right. I looked around and saw this imbecile's face pressed against the glass window in a door. He'd somehow managed to trap himself in the fire escape stairwell. I'm still not sure who was more surprised to see the other, me or him.

I probably should have let him out, really... ;D
I reckon people put me in the same category. When I first became a director the first thing anyone said to me was ďfcuk me, you couldnít direct pi55 into a bucketĒ. True story.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: tcobb on February 08, 2019, 14:23:51 pm
Deepcut, there seems to be no answer about funding a fan owned club, those suggesting it don't seem to have a clue as to where the money will come from.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Deepcut Cobbler on February 08, 2019, 14:37:30 pm
You have you just choose to ignore it Deepcut

I am pretty sure that funds would be raised to at the very least keep the club in the 4th division.

The only problem at the minute is as a direct result of our current board total failure of running our football club ie: massively overspending on crap players and not giving the managers a decent football club to help motivate those players. Therefore the overheads are way too high in terms of players



You answer with "You have you just choose to ignore it Deepcut" and then say "I am pretty sure...."

How can you hope to convince anyone of the plans credibility if you aren't even sure yourself?


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Vintage Cobbler on February 08, 2019, 14:38:33 pm
Think in terms of a joint venture partner or partners and you might find your mind opens to a variety of possibilities.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Deepcut Cobbler on February 08, 2019, 14:41:06 pm
Think in terms of a joint venture partner or partners and you might find your mind opens to a variety of possibilities.

My understanding of a Joint Venture Partnership is not 'Fan Ownership'.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Vintage Cobbler on February 08, 2019, 14:48:55 pm
I wouldn't get too fixated by the terminology. There are all sorts of variations one could come up but to answer you question and,  for example, if the Trust owned 51% and JVPs 49% does that make it a fans ownership scheme? 


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: BedsCobb on February 08, 2019, 14:57:50 pm
I am not against the idea of something that progresses NTFC in whatever format, however regarding the 'Fan Ownership' projection, how is it going to be funded?
I haven't seen a credible answer to that one yet.
Its not being 'funded' now so if our fan base, local buisneses, well wishers  etc were happy to get involved with and support where possible  to increase all departments of our turn over by 50% then that would be a much better starting platform than just sitting still wondering if these latest lot are ever going to do what the said they would when taking control of our club?


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Deepcut Cobbler on February 08, 2019, 15:36:10 pm
Its not being 'funded' now so if our fan base, local buisneses, well wishers  etc were happy to get involved with and support where possible  to increase all departments of our turn over by 50% then that would be a much better starting platform than just sitting still wondering if these latest lot are ever going to do what the said they would when taking control of our club?

What's not being 'funded' now?
"...so if.....were happy.....and support where possible....increase all departments of our turnover by 50%..."  Nothing credible about any of that.
"...better than just sitting still..."   Isn't that what you have done for the past 3 or more years?

Convince me and the many others on here that you have a factually credible plan. 
If you convince me I'll join the 'team' but at the moment, I am very far from it.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: BedsCobb on February 08, 2019, 15:55:35 pm
What's not being 'funded' now?
"...so if.....were happy.....and support where possible....increase all departments of our turnover by 50%..."  Nothing credible about any of that.
"...better than just sitting still..."   Isn't that what you have done for the past 3 or more years?

Convince me and the many others on here that you have a factually credible plan. 
If you convince me I'll join the 'team' but at the moment, I am very far from it.
Squad....cut backs.
Infrastructure improvements ... none.
Only the gate takings, tv sky pooled monies etc, are keeping our club ticking over.
Gates are dwindling due to lack of direction as to where our club is going and being stuck in the lower regions of league 2 is an unmitigated disaster and we find ourselves back there because of a .... lack of funding.




Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Deepcut Cobbler on February 08, 2019, 16:11:57 pm
Squad....cut backs.
Infrastructure improvements ... none.
Only the gate takings, tv sky pooled monies etc, are keeping our club ticking over.
Gates are dwindling due to lack of direction as to where our club is going and being stuck in the lower regions of league 2 is an unmitigated disaster and we find ourselves back there because of a .... lack of funding.


In your opinion.
You forgot the credible convincing bit...


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: EssTeeFree on February 08, 2019, 16:23:41 pm
The only problem at the minute is as a direct result of our current board total failure of running our football club ie: massively overspending on crap players .....

Sorry to selectively quote, how would it be a guarantee that a fan owned / community / JVP or whatever the model is would not make poor signings, or indeed poor management appointments?

I'm very much in favour of the process the trust are going through to investigate options but I do feel it is all undermined when people post things on here that suggest we would not have had the struggles of the last couple of seasons if we were under some kind of fan ownership, as if it is fact.

Anything that sells fan ownership as a quick fix completely misses the point in my opinion. I would really hope it was a seriously long term vision that is put forward, if it is to tide us over until the next private owner buys us (e.g. Portsmouth) then what is the point?


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: cj on February 08, 2019, 19:00:01 pm
Deepcut, there seems to be no answer about funding a fan owned club, those suggesting it don't seem to have a clue as to where the money will come from.

Pies pies pies pies, pies pies pies pies, PIES.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: guest3114 on February 08, 2019, 21:47:07 pm
The three examples we should be looking at are Swansea (rise from 4th to Prem) Accrington and Burton. 

Swansea as they had a plan to build a football club with a vision of what they wanted and how things would work  ie: They told the manager what type and style of football they wanted and they had to use the backroom staff already in place

Accrington and Burton both are owned by fans who are businessmen tuned to modern day policies and practises, whose clubs are punching well above their weight

I still struggle to understand how some fans are so against the above, especially when you factor in the last 10 years at NTFC. But then i believe that many fans don't help as they can only focus on player acquisitions and that is their sole judgement on a chairman, despite the obvious factor that randomly bringing in average players on high wages f***s up the club every time
Youíve answered your own question Random. I think the reason you and others like you struggle to understand is you exclusively promote best case scenarios dismissing any and all realistic concerns as irrelevant. The correct thing to do is look at all scenarios and form a balanced considered opinion. The problem with your approach is that many see the obvious omissions and flaws in the reasoning. Your opinion is then ridiculed and any pertinent comments that may be made are lost in the tidal wave of scepticism. The irony is that you inadvertently end up supporting the current model, because many people believe your suggested alternative is probably unrealistic fantasy. Hope that helps?


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: meccanostand on February 09, 2019, 08:09:54 am
Youíve answered your own question Random. I think the reason you and others like you struggle to understand is you exclusively promote best case scenarios dismissing any and all realistic concerns as irrelevant. The correct thing to do is look at all scenarios and form a balanced considered opinion. The problem with your approach is that many see the obvious omissions and flaws in the reasoning. Your opinion is then ridiculed and any pertinent comments that may be made are lost in the tidal wave of scepticism. The irony is that you inadvertently end up supporting the current model, because many people believe your suggested alternative is probably unrealistic fantasy. Hope that helps?

To be fair to Random, he has an open mind and is willing to look outside of the closed frame of reference that is the Cobblers. The vast majority of our fans quietly go about their business and will fairly weigh up any propositions on ownership of the club.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: guest2724 on February 09, 2019, 08:44:11 am
I've replied elsewhere on the finances so I'm not going to repeat myself..

If any model of greater supporter involvement is to succeed then it has to be on the basis of what the current financial position of the club is, not what it could become. No bank would ever take seriously a proposal that includes a growth factor of 50% to make it viable. The first question that any bank will ask is "what happens to your plans if incomes fall by 50%"?

In the case of a football club, any bank will be even more sceptical because of the lack of security..

This isn't to say that supporter ownership models cannot work - I think that they can and NTFC only has the turnover of a large corner shop, but there has to be absolute realism about the money involved. Having looked at the cobblers accounts in as much detail as possible, I would think that a full supporter owned club will need about £5m to be taken seriously and then what ever price the current owner would want to sell their equity.

The £5m is based on cash flow, repairs and renewals, a hedge against fiscal disasters etc...


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: meccanostand on February 09, 2019, 08:50:06 am
I've replied elsewhere on the finances so I'm not going to repeat myself..

If any model of greater supporter involvement is to succeed then it has to be on the basis of what the current financial position of the club is, not what it could become. No bank would ever take seriously a proposal that includes a growth factor of 50% to make it viable. The first question that any bank will ask is "what happens to your plans if incomes fall by 50%"?

In the case of a football club, any bank will be even more sceptical because of the lack of security..

This isn't to say that supporter ownership models cannot work - I think that they can and NTFC only has the turnover of a large corner shop, but there has to be absolute realism about the money involved. Having looked at the cobblers accounts in as much detail as possible, I would think that a full supporter owned club will need about £5m to be taken seriously and then what ever price the current owner would want to sell their equity.

The £5m is based on cash flow, repairs and renewals, a hedge against fiscal disasters etc...

Quite a few summations there but some interesting points. Of course any community owned club would have to have a viable business plan, that goes without saying.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: guest2724 on February 09, 2019, 08:56:25 am
I would be interested to know what the assumptions are that might be questionable? No one outside the club has the full management accounts but a combination of the published accounts, stuff from the EFL etc, mean that I am reasonably confident that the order of magnitude of the finances are correct.



Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: phil_in_npton on February 09, 2019, 11:28:45 am
Good Morning!

As a supporter of a fan owned club, Newport County, i thought i would just add a few points as to what it has meant to me. I dont pretend to know the ins and outs financially of the club, only a peripheral view. Also i think our ground situation is also pretty unique compared to other clubs, we pay rent to the owners, who appear to not even want us to be there.
Going back in time. i just paid my ticket money to watch a game and never really gave a second thought to behind the scenes issues, the club played its matches in whatever league they were in, mostly Division Four and the world carried on.
Then one day my club didnt exist, there was no money left.
After reformation and a pretty much hand to mouth existence for twenty odd years, slowly climbing up the leagues a lottery winner was bamboozled into putting some money into the club, this funded our return to the league but the love affair didnt last long, and the fans buy out situation arose.
Fans were asked to contribute to buy the club and all rallied round with donations and the minimum  to join the trust was £10 a year. A bargain as priority tickets were included in this arrangement, and we did well in the cup and much money was gained.
However it emerged that not enough money was coming in on a regular basis from gate receipts and trust income, Fortunate in a few transfer deals, and cup money balanced the books.
Recently an overhaul of the trust membership scheme upped the minimum contribution from £10 a year to £60 a year, Times four for this household equals £240. For me thats affordable, especially as i dont get to that many home games, but for many fans locally, on top of regular attendance that can be a lot to justify on ones interest in watching football.
Also a subscription to i-follow, and the County lottery are extra outgoings to support my football team.
So it is no longer just pay for a ticket and watch the game, it has become a commitment from the heart and the bank balance.
The recent cup success and the fact that next week we shall be watching us play Man city are memories we shall treasure forever and can be seen as some payback for the financial commitment, without being a trust member i doubt we would have got tickets, certainly not seats as required.
This success has clouded the issue that the club cannot survive (competitively) on a bog standard early cup exit season.
I dont know what the future will hold, but a third party injection of cash may ensure survival but also takes control away from those that care. The fan base of a few thousand cannot fund the existence of a league two football team in the long term. 

Good luck to the Cobblers in sorting out their financial situation which in itself seems very complex to an outsider!

Phil in Northampton




Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: DrillingCobbler on February 09, 2019, 12:28:02 pm
Good Morning!

As a supporter of a fan owned club, Newport County, i thought i would just add a few points as to what it has meant to me. I dont pretend to know the ins and outs financially of the club, only a peripheral view. Also i think our ground situation is also pretty unique compared to other clubs, we pay rent to the owners, who appear to not even want us to be there.
Going back in time. i just paid my ticket money to watch a game and never really gave a second thought to behind the scenes issues, the club played its matches in whatever league they were in, mostly Division Four and the world carried on.
Then one day my club didnt exist, there was no money left.
After reformation and a pretty much hand to mouth existence for twenty odd years, slowly climbing up the leagues a lottery winner was bamboozled into putting some money into the club, this funded our return to the league but the love affair didnt last long, and the fans buy out situation arose.
Fans were asked to contribute to buy the club and all rallied round with donations and the minimum  to join the trust was £10 a year. A bargain as priority tickets were included in this arrangement, and we did well in the cup and much money was gained.
However it emerged that not enough money was coming in on a regular basis from gate receipts and trust income, Fortunate in a few transfer deals, and cup money balanced the books.
Recently an overhaul of the trust membership scheme upped the minimum contribution from £10 a year to £60 a year, Times four for this household equals £240. For me thats affordable, especially as i dont get to that many home games, but for many fans locally, on top of regular attendance that can be a lot to justify on ones interest in watching football.
Also a subscription to i-follow, and the County lottery are extra outgoings to support my football team.
So it is no longer just pay for a ticket and watch the game, it has become a commitment from the heart and the bank balance.
The recent cup success and the fact that next week we shall be watching us play Man city are memories we shall treasure forever and can be seen as some payback for the financial commitment, without being a trust member i doubt we would have got tickets, certainly not seats as required.
This success has clouded the issue that the club cannot survive (competitively) on a bog standard early cup exit season.
I dont know what the future will hold, but a third party injection of cash may ensure survival but also takes control away from those that care. The fan base of a few thousand cannot fund the existence of a league two football team in the long term. 

Good luck to the Cobblers in sorting out their financial situation which in itself seems very complex to an outsider!

Phil in Northampton




Good insight mate. Enjoy your cup game; fingers crossed you win! Or at least hang on for a replay!


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: phil_in_npton on February 09, 2019, 13:21:43 pm
Thank you!

No replays. All on the day, extra time and penalties if required. I just hope we donít suffer as Burton did, albeit that was at City.

Phil in Npton


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: guest3114 on February 09, 2019, 13:27:44 pm
I've replied elsewhere on the finances so I'm not going to repeat myself..

If any model of greater supporter involvement is to succeed then it has to be on the basis of what the current financial position of the club is, not what it could become. No bank would ever take seriously a proposal that includes a growth factor of 50% to make it viable. The first question that any bank will ask is "what happens to your plans if incomes fall by 50%"?

In the case of a football club, any bank will be even more sceptical because of the lack of security..

This isn't to say that supporter ownership models cannot work - I think that they can and NTFC only has the turnover of a large corner shop, but there has to be absolute realism about the money involved. Having looked at the cobblers accounts in as much detail as possible, I would think that a full supporter owned club will need about £5m to be taken seriously and then what ever price the current owner would want to sell their equity.

The £5m is based on cash flow, repairs and renewals, a hedge against fiscal disasters etc...
Iíve said this before Wandering and I will go on the record with this indisputable fact again. Forget the banks unless you have the collateral to cover the loan and then some. Anyone who assumes this is even a remote possibility without that condition is in for a shock.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: guest2724 on February 09, 2019, 16:56:41 pm
Hi Aussie
I wasn't suggesting a loan...I was just trying to highlight the size of the capital to be raised that might be required for a 100% fan owned club...my figures are speculative given the fact the turnover of the club is confidential..I set £5m as approximately 125% of what the turnover might be..

I agree entirely that any bank would be extremely circumspect in looking at a supporters owned club because no bank wants to be responsible for calling in the collateral of a football club...

Having said that, I think a bank would be willing to look at being the banker of a supporter owned club if there were strict financial rules on how its finances were to be operated, similar to the salary cap management protocol that the EFL already applies to Div 2 clubs..sorry for the confusion..



Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: random on February 09, 2019, 18:12:31 pm
I still find it amazing that some come on here and talk about me saying only best scenario etc etc yet completely ignore the failings of the current and previous managers. In a nutshell whatever fan owner ship is it seems that it must be 100% perfect to gain an support from certain individuals yet are happy with current owners who are imho 1% perfect

The other thing some have wrong is that i am advocating very slow, focus and sustainable growth and actually trying to run the football club for all. Certainly sure that whoever owns the club they will make bad signings however isn't it about time some of you actually starting looking at the bigger picture and ask why do we sign so many players / managers etc and also the calibre and potential of those players. I believe that NTFC has a relatively bad reputation within football, training facilities are poor, player facilities are poor, atmosphere is poor, the owners are mainly absent and there is little / no ambition, these are the things that over time could and should be fixed, which in turn will attract better players.

In summary there has to be a much better balance between on and off pitch investment, in the past it seems 105% player / manager and -5% off the pitch. That would be my focus, I would slash the wage / management bill until off the pitch catches up a bit. If that meant finishing 18th in league 2 for the next 4 seasons then so be it but then player facilities would have improved, better staff, better atmosphere within the club would improve our chances on the pitch.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: tcobb on February 09, 2019, 18:21:14 pm
Slashing the wage bill could mean finishing 24th next season, maybe the season after that too. How would a fan owned Club make up the loss of income because of relegation ?
 Random, why do you think, wrongly, that people who are not keen on fan ownership, want the current owners to stay ?


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Another Pedj on February 09, 2019, 18:27:26 pm
How low would you be prepared to go? Conference,conference North or maybe even one below that.

If that is built into the business plan then just say so..


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Deepcut Cobbler on February 09, 2019, 18:30:21 pm
I still find it amazing that some come on here and talk about me saying only best scenario etc etc yet completely ignore the failings of the current and previous managers. In a nutshell whatever fan owner ship is it seems that it must be 100% perfect to gain an support from certain individuals yet are happy with current owners who are imho 1% perfect

The other thing some have wrong is that i am advocating very slow, focus and sustainable growth and actually trying to run the football club for all. Certainly sure that whoever owns the club they will make bad signings however isn't it about time some of you actually starting looking at the bigger picture and ask why do we sign so many players / managers etc and also the calibre and potential of those players. I believe that NTFC has a relatively bad reputation within football, training facilities are poor, player facilities are poor, atmosphere is poor, the owners are mainly absent and there is little / no ambition, these are the things that over time could and should be fixed, which in turn will attract better players.

In summary there has to be a much better balance between on and off pitch investment, in the past it seems 105% player / manager and -5% off the pitch. That would be my focus, I would slash the wage / management bill until off the pitch catches up a bit. If that meant finishing 18th in league 2 for the next 4 seasons then so be it but then player facilities would have improved, better staff, better atmosphere within the club would improve our chances on the pitch.



I was going to comment on each of your points but decided that it would have been a waste of time...


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: guest3114 on February 09, 2019, 19:39:49 pm
Hi Aussie
I wasn't suggesting a loan...I was just trying to highlight the size of the capital to be raised that might be required for a 100% fan owned club...my figures are speculative given the fact the turnover of the club is confidential..I set £5m as approximately 125% of what the turnover might be..

I agree entirely that any bank would be extremely circumspect in looking at a supporters owned club because no bank wants to be responsible for calling in the collateral of a football club...

Having said that, I think a bank would be willing to look at being the banker of a supporter owned club if there were strict financial rules on how its finances were to be operated, similar to the salary cap management protocol that the EFL already applies to Div 2 clubs..sorry for the confusion..


I know, I was just saying because you raised the subject of the banks. I have the unfortunate duty of having to deal with them on a regular basis both here and in the UK. In fact I am currently doing so on 2 fronts, clueless w@nkers Drive me to an inch of sanity. However on your last point trust me on this, whilst all and any will happily be the clubs banker when it comes to a loan you would struggle to get enough to redecorate the changing rooms.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: guest3114 on February 09, 2019, 19:46:16 pm

I was going to comment on each of your points but decided that it would have been a waste of time...
Instead of giving Random advice I should be taking yours DC. Itís like talking to the cat.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: guest3114 on February 10, 2019, 01:52:01 am
To be fair to Random, he has an open mind and is willing to look outside of the closed frame of reference that is the Cobblers. The vast majority of our fans quietly go about their business and will fairly weigh up any propositions on ownership of the club.
ďHe has an open mindĒ? Do me a favour Mecca, if you are going to comment on here stay off the drugs.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Irchy cob on February 10, 2019, 07:29:08 am
The amount of (not even hidden) agendas, plans written on the back of fag packets and rhetoric on here is frightening.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Terryfenwickatemyhamster on February 10, 2019, 09:50:49 am
All I want is proof. That is very little to ask. I have attended a few meetings, listened to individuals/groups,  as well as receiving some emails from the council.

If I am asked to sit in a meeting where the word ďallegedlyĒ is used as much as it is already, then I will more than likely go bang 😁.

If someone tells me that a sum of money can be raised from somewhere, they better be able to show me how. I do not want to hear about if every supporter does this, we'll have this. Or if we get local business on board we'll make this much.. That is not a plan.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: guest2724 on February 10, 2019, 10:25:12 am
What emails have you seen from NBC?


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Terryfenwickatemyhamster on February 10, 2019, 11:04:48 am
What emails have you seen from NBC?

Ones that state that there is constructive ongoing dialogue between the club and NBC.





Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: guest3114 on February 10, 2019, 11:15:09 am
All I want is proof. That is very little to ask. I have attended a few meetings, listened to individuals/groups,  as well as receiving some emails from the council.

If I am asked to sit in a meeting where the word ďallegedlyĒ is used as much as it is already, then I will more than likely go bang 😁.

If someone tells me that a sum of money can be raised from somewhere, they better be able to show me how. I do not want to hear about if every supporter does this, we'll have this. Or if we get local business on board we'll make this much.. That is not a plan.
Put the question out there Hammy. We can establish how many people regularly use this forum. In the event there was a share issue for NTFC to become a fan owned club, how many would be prepared to invest and how much? Transpose that across the support base and you have an idea. Farvfrom an exact science with a lot of variables but you would get an indication of the stomach for this if nothing else. Stating the obvious, fan owned club means fans have to source the finances. If they donít and someone else puts up the collateral then they will be the owners. This process has to start somewhere so either this forum, the trust or any other supporter representative body may as well take a snap shot of opinion and more importantly intent. If itís 10 million or 10 quid letís find out? If itís nothing then fine you look at other options. My own view on this is that itís put up or shut up time. I have stated previously that there are certain criteria that would need to be followed for me to be involved. However, leaving the conditional elements aside I would happily buy a number of shares up to £3,000 given the opportunity. As far as I am aware there are a few others who would. I donít want to put the poll up and pre-empt or damage the process whilst the trust are working on a strategy or proposal. But FFS letís stop arguing and find out what people are willing and/or able to do?


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: FezNTFC on February 10, 2019, 11:36:17 am
I think it's worth repeating that this is the very beginning of this process. People are quite rightly asking where the money would be coming from, but frankly they aren't going to get an answer at the moment. As yet we don't even know which model the Trust might look at exploring in more detail. It could be fans only, it could be fans + private investors, there may not even be a viable outcome at all.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: guest3114 on February 10, 2019, 11:49:23 am
I think it's worth repeating that this is the very beginning of this process. People are quite rightly asking where the money would be coming from, but frankly they aren't going to get an answer at the moment. As yet we don't even know which model the Trust might look at exploring in more detail. It could be fans only, it could be fans + private investors, there may not even be a viable outcome at all.
Fair point Fez but if itís out there at least you can rule it in or out as a factor and have some sort of indication of what supporters are prepared to do if anything?


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: meccanostand on February 10, 2019, 11:53:44 am
Put the question out there Hammy. We can establish how many people regularly use this forum. In the event there was a share issue for NTFC to become a fan owned club, how many would be prepared to invest and how much? Transpose that across the support base and you have an idea. Farvfrom an exact science with a lot of variables but you would get an indication of the stomach for this if nothing else. Stating the obvious, fan owned club means fans have to source the finances. If they donít and someone else puts up the collateral then they will be the owners. This process has to start somewhere so either this forum, the trust or any other supporter representative body may as well take a snap shot of opinion and more importantly intent. If itís 10 million or 10 quid letís find out? If itís nothing then fine you look at other options. My own view on this is that itís put up or shut up time. I have stated previously that there are certain criteria that would need to be followed for me to be involved. However, leaving the conditional elements aside I would happily buy a number of shares up to £3,000 given the opportunity. As far as I am aware there are a few others who would. I donít want to put the poll up and pre-empt or damage the process whilst the trust are working on a strategy or proposal. But FFS letís stop arguing and find out what people are willing and/or able to do?

There's a about 5 people "arguing" on this thread, I wouldn't even call it arguing. A message board of anonymous posters will rarely be the vehicle to judge anything. Let's have a poll of anonymous people on an undetermined outcome for undetermined figures. Pretty pointless.

The Trust have called a public meeting and as you say just be a little patient and engage with the process. Fair play on being willing to invest, that's a really positive start.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Terryfenwickatemyhamster on February 10, 2019, 12:44:34 pm
I think it's worth repeating that this is the very beginning of this process. People are quite rightly asking where the money would be coming from, but frankly they aren't going to get an answer at the moment. As yet we don't even know which model the Trust might look at exploring in more detail. It could be fans only, it could be fans + private investors, there may not even be a viable outcome at all.

Are you telling the truth there. Youíre telling me that you and others are being totally transparent at this point?

If you want any credibility, you have to play by the same rules as the rest of us. Iíve been up front from the start. Do you honestly believe the Trust at this point are discussing a fan owned model?


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: meccanostand on February 10, 2019, 13:16:46 pm
All you can go on is the trust's official correspondence, the rest is just hearsay. The Trust has plenty of credibility and in sorting a public meeting is being about as open as it can get. Understand that there are people itching to find out more and join in but just needs a little patience. Would it be correct or sensible to rule out any models before a meeting has been held? Probably not. Until then we'll just go round and round in circles.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Terryfenwickatemyhamster on February 10, 2019, 13:30:09 pm
All you can go on is the trust's official correspondence, the rest is just hearsay. The Trust has plenty of credibility and in sorting a public meeting is being about as open as it can get. Understand that there are people itching to find out more and join in but just needs a little patience. Would it be correct or sensible to rule out any models before a meeting has been held? Probably not. Until then we'll just go round and round in circles.

Iím more than happy to hear representations from anybody. I am a lot more interested in protecting the Trust than I am any businessman or indeed owner. But... All we hear is about how itís our club. Well... Itís our Trust as well.

I will say one thing, then leave it. On the whole I have stayed away from this debate. But one thing is clear. If anybody is pushing an agenda that is nothing more than just another non football, non NTFC interested party.. Just be careful. Rarely are things as they seem in business.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: meccanostand on February 10, 2019, 13:37:49 pm
Iím more than happy to hear representations from anybody. I am a lot more interested in protecting the Trust than I am any businessman or indeed owner. But... All we hear is about how itís our club. Well... Itís our Trust as well.

I will say one thing, then leave it. On the whole I have stayed away from this debate. But one thing is clear. If anybody is pushing an agenda that is nothing more than just another non football, non NTFC interested party.. Just be careful. Rarely are things as they seem in business.


Yep agree with all of this. Everything I've heard from you is pretty level headed and don't really disagree with anything. Hopefully we'll come out of the end of this with a healthier club. I'm hopeful.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: BedsCobb on February 10, 2019, 13:50:02 pm
Put the question out there Hammy. We can establish how many people regularly use this forum. In the event there was a share issue for NTFC to become a fan owned club, how many would be prepared to invest and how much? Transpose that across the support base and you have an idea. Farvfrom an exact science with a lot of variables but you would get an indication of the stomach for this if nothing else. Stating the obvious, fan owned club means fans have to source the finances. If they donít and someone else puts up the collateral then they will be the owners. This process has to start somewhere so either this forum, the trust or any other supporter representative body may as well take a snap shot of opinion and more importantly intent. If itís 10 million or 10 quid letís find out? If itís nothing then fine you look at other options. My own view on this is that itís put up or shut up time. I have stated previously that there are certain criteria that would need to be followed for me to be involved. However, leaving the conditional elements aside I would happily buy a number of shares up to £3,000 given the opportunity. As far as I am aware there are a few others who would. I donít want to put the poll up and pre-empt or damage the process whilst the trust are working on a strategy or proposal. But FFS letís stop arguing and find out what people are willing and/or able to do?
I don't think people are arguing as such, Just fed up with the constant  lack of direction our club is suffering.
This can be gauged quite easily by the fact so few people bother turning up and watching.

I would prefer fans were offered multiple years season tickets at fixed price rates in which to finance ground improvements etc, with any future short fall being made up by encouraging new supporters and better corporate facilities etc.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: FezNTFC on February 10, 2019, 14:16:53 pm
Are you telling the truth there. Youíre telling me that you and others are being totally transparent at this point?

If you want any credibility, you have to play by the same rules as the rest of us. Iíve been up front from the start. Do you honestly believe the Trust at this point are discussing a fan owned model?
My honest answer is that I don't know which of the models they are discussing at the moment. I haven't asked, I'm not involved with the project and I'm not on the Trust board any more. I'm going to let them crack on with it and find out more at the public meeting.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: The 12th Marquis of Sixfields on February 10, 2019, 14:22:07 pm
That's an old story. They have made adjustments to put them on a more secure financial footing since then.

They also have rent issues that we don't have to deal with. the current board have put us on a good footing to explore community ownership. What's more we are in a position to cherry pick the best from the private and community owned models.
Yeah of course relevant to the overall view but the Newport model and how it has been adjusted needs more analysis than a couple of lines on here.

The story you referenced is old and it's more functional to adopt a fluid approach to what is happening on the ground there.

In any case, Newport are just one model, you can't poo poo the whole idea of community ownership with reference to the Exiles. Also let's reference the profits and losses of the current NTFC administration for a rounded conversation.


it's from this season. not really "old".


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Terryfenwickatemyhamster on February 10, 2019, 19:01:11 pm
My honest answer is that I don't know which of the models they are discussing at the moment. I haven't asked, I'm not involved with the project and I'm not on the Trust board any more. I'm going to let them crack on with it and find out more at the public meeting.

 ;D


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Turf Claret on February 10, 2019, 20:06:17 pm
My honest answer is that I don't know which of the models they are discussing at the moment. I haven't asked, I'm not involved with the project and I'm not on the Trust board any more. I'm going to let them crack on with it and find out more at the public meeting.

I suppose you could always ask your dad.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: guest3114 on February 10, 2019, 20:09:50 pm
There's a about 5 people "arguing" on this thread, I wouldn't even call it arguing. A message board of anonymous posters will rarely be the vehicle to judge anything. Let's have a poll of anonymous people on an undetermined outcome for undetermined figures. Pretty pointless.

The Trust have called a public meeting and as you say just be a little patient and engage with the process. Fair play on being willing to invest, that's a really positive start.
If the trust polled itís members they wouldnít be anonymous, and the point is to try and establish  the figures to determine the outcome. It must be me?


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: FezNTFC on February 10, 2019, 20:34:38 pm
I suppose you could always ask your dad.
You can as well. At the public meeting.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: random on February 10, 2019, 22:08:31 pm
Yep I thought so, Tcobb, knew thats what you would say

I would not be expecting relegation despite cutting the playing budget, please read what i put

Surely you can't argue that our recent way of buying / loaning player after player with absolutely no plan, has not worked and made the club very unattractive to would be investors due to our stupid wage bill?

I am talking of budgets similar to Accrington, Exeter, Lincoln and Burton (relative to the division). We are constantly told a budget is top 3 (top 1 i think it was this season) which I expect doesn't include ex managers we are still paying. So i believe that we would still have a decent enough team and spend money on building up the club.
It will take time, it's not a quick fix but pretty sure it is a bit alternative than DC / KT have been


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Terryfenwickatemyhamster on February 11, 2019, 12:42:36 pm
I suppose you could always ask your dad.

It was the "honest" bit that tickled me..


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: FezNTFC on February 11, 2019, 15:34:13 pm
It was the "honest" bit that tickled me..
I'm incredibly comfortable with what I've said thanks.  :)


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Terryfenwickatemyhamster on February 11, 2019, 15:42:21 pm
I'm incredibly comfortable with what I've said thanks.  :)
I have no reason to doubt you. I have treated all similarities in your responses as purely coincidental. I am incredibly comfortable with the fact that you and your father have not discussed this at all.  ;D ;D

Please note: My tongue is firmly in cheek.. Ooooer.  8)


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: clarkeysntfc on February 11, 2019, 15:45:03 pm
So given everyone being transparent... who are the investors being lined up for the "community ownership" model?


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: FezNTFC on February 11, 2019, 17:01:15 pm
I have no reason to doubt you. I have treated all similarities in your responses as purely coincidental. I am incredibly comfortable with the fact that you and your father have not discussed this at all.  ;D ;D

Please note: My tongue is firmly in cheek.. Ooooer.  8)
What point are you trying to prove here? That I'm related to one of the board members of the Trust? You haven't unearthed anything that most people didn't know anyway.

In essence though, your argument seems to be that due to my family connections, I might be privy to more information and that I'm therefore misleading people about what ownership models the Trust is looking into.

This is despite the fact that the Trust says in its public statement that it's looking into different models, including community ownership and also a fan partnership with private investors.

It's actually impossible to mislead anyone when the Trust has literally said it's looking into all of the different options.

It's a pathetic argument when you think about it really.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: BedsCobb on February 11, 2019, 17:03:26 pm
So given everyone being transparent... who are the investors being lined up for the "community ownership" model?
Getting investors to buy into a community ownership in our tiny ground void of any modern corporate facilities would be unlikely.
Any would be investors would want to see some resemblance of a real community club with supporters and towns folk in general getting on board with real working development initiatives.

We've had several suggested on here that would work an absolute treat.
I suspect its only a matter of time before something gives and our club gets a well deserved break.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Terryfenwickatemyhamster on February 11, 2019, 18:45:00 pm
What point are you trying to prove here? That I'm related to one of the board members of the Trust? You haven't unearthed anything that most people didn't know anyway.

In essence though, your argument seems to be that due to my family connections, I might be privy to more information and that I'm therefore misleading people about what ownership models the Trust is looking into.

This is despite the fact that the Trust says in its public statement that it's looking into different models, including community ownership and also a fan partnership with private investors.

It's actually impossible to mislead anyone when the Trust has literally said it's looking into all of the different options.

It's a pathetic argument when you think about it really.

I didnít realise there was any argument. Iím not too sure whatís got you all revved up.

As I said.. It is all tongue in cheek.. Clearly I have said something incendiary that I didnít realise.

I canít say anymore than I've already said. I am more than happy to accept your honest version, that you havenít had any conversation about it at all.... I canít see what more I can say. Try to take things in the spirit they are meant and not read between the lines too much James.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: guest3114 on February 11, 2019, 20:09:16 pm
Well, if the 3.53 million valuation in the Chronic is to be believed we are going to need to sell quite a few pies and bovrils to cover that. Hope there are plenty of well wishers out there? Iím still sticking to my 14 to 17 million guestimated budget though.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: The 12th Marquis of Sixfields on February 11, 2019, 20:48:31 pm
Well, if the 3.53 million valuation in the Chronic is to be believed we are going to need to sell quite a few pies and bovrils to cover that. Hope there are plenty of well wishers out there? I’m still sticking to my 14 to 17 million guestimated budget though.
they've used that website run by Wally's to come to that valuation. I wouldn't take any notice of it


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: guest3114 on February 11, 2019, 20:55:05 pm
they've used that website run by Wally's to come to that valuation. I wouldn't take any notice of it
To be fair I did choke on my cornflakes. To turn £1 into 3.53 million in 3 years is the single greatest return on investment Iíve ever heard of. Not my place to speak for the bloke but KT would take your hand off for a fraction of that, so it is nonsense as you say.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Another Pedj on February 11, 2019, 21:29:01 pm
That depends. He may have paid Cardoza a £1 but he has invested, or at least he and his partners companies have invested £2million. He wants to recover that.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Another Pedj on February 11, 2019, 21:30:22 pm
Invested us probably the wrong word. It's what the club owes to him and associates.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Terryfenwickatemyhamster on February 11, 2019, 22:26:10 pm
Well, if the 3.53 million valuation in the Chronic is to be believed we are going to need to sell quite a few pies and bovrils to cover that. Hope there are plenty of well wishers out there? Iím still sticking to my 14 to 17 million guestimated budget though.

There is only one source that is less reliable than Beds.... The Shyte that is the Chron.



Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Irchy cob on February 11, 2019, 22:43:40 pm
There is only one source that is less reliable than Beds.... The Shyte that is the Chron.



And theyíre using figures pulled out of thin air by transfermarkt - the chron must be really struggling for content to have to stoop to that.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: BedsCobb on February 11, 2019, 23:03:11 pm
Well, if the 3.53 million valuation in the Chronic is to be believed we are going to need to sell quite a few pies and bovrils to cover that. Hope there are plenty of well wishers out there? Iím still sticking to my 14 to 17 million guestimated budget though.
or a prolonged boycott, should their demands be deemed unfairly excessive.
This lot would soon run to the hills.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: meccanostand on February 12, 2019, 07:31:42 am
Trust Community Ownership public meeting. 1pm Sunday 10th March at the Park Inn Northampton.

https://twitter.com/ntfc_trust/status/1095033404943462401  (https://twitter.com/ntfc_trust/status/1095033404943462401)


Title: Community Ownership Public Meeting - Sunday 10th March
Post by: barton cobbler on February 16, 2019, 11:44:21 am
NTFC Supporters Trust will be holding a presentation of "Project Proud to Be" and a discussion of a community owned vision for NTFC
    This will be the most wide-ranging conversation on the strategy, infrastructure and ownership of Northampton Town Football Club in its 122 year history
    The meeting is being held at 13.00 - 16.00 on Sunday 10th March at the Park Inn, Silver Street, Northampton, NN1 2TA. There will be in attendance, representatives of other Trust/Community owned football clubs who will answer questions on the positives and negatives of Community ownership and the financial costings of their clubs.
    Please come along and have your say. 


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: meccanostand on February 22, 2019, 09:21:01 am
From the Cobblers fans' engagement meeting last night: Kelvin Thomas happy to consider any proposals from the supporters trust on community ownership.

https://twitter.com/PGNTFC/status/1098865174352744448 (https://twitter.com/PGNTFC/status/1098865174352744448)


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Irchy cob on February 22, 2019, 13:59:44 pm
From the Cobblers fans' engagement meeting last night: Kelvin Thomas happy to consider any proposals from the supporters trust on community ownership.

https://twitter.com/PGNTFC/status/1098865174352744448 (https://twitter.com/PGNTFC/status/1098865174352744448)

Isnít the key phrase in that report that KT ďis interested to see who will provide financial backingĒ - it suggests to me (I might be wrong) that he is sceptical as to how his asking price is likely to be met.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: random on February 22, 2019, 15:01:49 pm
It doesnít appear that the Northampton public are too interested in the opening meeting. I mean there is nothing from the Cronic or Jeremy Casey and no mention on radio Northampton.
No wonder nothing changes

Lol re KT wanna to see the money and worried who it is    Did he come out with the ďwant the best for People of Northampton ď bulls*** ?


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: cobblerwatch on February 22, 2019, 15:09:21 pm
It doesnít appear that the Northampton public are too interested in the opening meeting. I mean there is nothing from the Cronic or Jeremy Casey and no mention on radio Northampton.
No wonder nothing changes

Lol re KT wanna to see the money and worried who it is    Did he come out with the ďwant the best for People of Northampton ď bulls*** ?

I have to agree on a weak and uninspiring meeting - FFS all sorts of positive adjectives about the clubs financial position and the East Stand development but totally zero on commitment or detail - surely (if it exists) a plan for the East Stand development could be given and "reluctance to provide it until......" might logically suggests there is no plan and no intention.

https://www.ntfc.co.uk/news/2019/february/supporters_advisory_panel_21feb/


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Zen Master on February 22, 2019, 16:32:53 pm
 It appears that with the leases sorted that the original footprint is now back in the clubs control separate from CDNL land.
 Iím not sure if NBC can hold out on any planning applications on the basis of finishing the East Stand. I hope they can but have my reservations.

 Whether or not the vision is for the clubs land to be used for funding development or CDNL realised development profit is hard to fathom at this point.

Time will tell but as Iím 45 I may not still be around to see itís fruition!

 



 


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: meccanostand on February 22, 2019, 18:45:34 pm
It appears that with the leases sorted that the original footprint is now back in the clubs control separate from CDNL land.
 Iím not sure if NBC can hold out on any planning applications on the basis of finishing the East Stand. I hope they can but have my reservations.

 Whether or not the vision is for the clubs land to be used for funding development or CDNL realised development profit is hard to fathom at this point.

Time will tell but as Iím 45 I may not still be around to see itís fruition!

 



 


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: meccanostand on February 22, 2019, 18:49:08 pm
Did chuckle at a club with a holding company c80% owned by a British Virgin Islands entity asking the trust for transparency.  ;D


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: guest3245 on February 22, 2019, 20:41:07 pm
What a load of Titts we have on this board.  :)


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: everbrite on March 03, 2019, 15:40:42 pm
So given everyone being transparent...

....please consider update on your ice rink foray. Any cheering or singing and did your  favs win?


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: clarkeysntfc on March 03, 2019, 17:46:36 pm
An entertaining 3-3 draw with the MK Lightning winning on penalties 2-1.

Really good atmosphere throughout, lead by the drummers in block 6. Also a healthy contingent of Panthers fans made the trip from Nottingham.

Pint of spitfire £3.60, and the ticket £18.

A really good evening out too of a really good day of sport.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: wazzacobbler on March 04, 2019, 12:12:52 pm
Hi everyone.

We have a special episode of the podcast out now that is an interview with the Trust Chairman, Andy Roberts. Andy explains why the Trust are putting on this public meeting and talks about how the Trust are looking to the future.

We hope the podcast gives the Trust a chance to get their thoughts across to all fans, and whilst there are no answers on fan ownership as yet, Andy gives good reasons for holding the meeting in the first place.

Download, subscribe and listen on Apple Podcasts (https://itunes.apple.com/gb/podcast/its-all-cobblers-to-me/id1436309214?ls=1), Spotify (https://open.spotify.com/show/7b4wR8HR4zns2ocZguzl9f) and all other podcast platforms.

Or click here to listen  (https://audioboom.com/posts/7178152-it-s-all-cobblers-meets-the-ntfc-supporters-trust)


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: cobblerwatch on March 04, 2019, 12:37:01 pm
Hi everyone.

We have a special episode of the podcast out now that is an interview with the Trust Chairman, Andy Roberts. Andy explains why the Trust are putting on this public meeting and talks about how the Trust are looking to the future.

We hope the podcast gives the Trust a chance to get their thoughts across to all fans, and whilst there are no answers on fan ownership as yet, Andy gives good reasons for holding the meeting in the first place.

Download, subscribe and listen on Apple Podcasts (https://itunes.apple.com/gb/podcast/its-all-cobblers-to-me/id1436309214?ls=1), Spotify (https://open.spotify.com/show/7b4wR8HR4zns2ocZguzl9f) and all other podcast platforms.

Or click here to listen  (https://audioboom.com/posts/7178152-it-s-all-cobblers-meets-the-ntfc-supporters-trust)


Always impressed with Andy - good credibility as a leader.

 


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Terryfenwickatemyhamster on March 04, 2019, 13:25:55 pm
Hi everyone.

We have a special episode of the podcast out now that is an interview with the Trust Chairman, Andy Roberts. Andy explains why the Trust are putting on this public meeting and talks about how the Trust are looking to the future.

We hope the podcast gives the Trust a chance to get their thoughts across to all fans, and whilst there are no answers on fan ownership as yet, Andy gives good reasons for holding the meeting in the first place.

Download, subscribe and listen on Apple Podcasts (https://itunes.apple.com/gb/podcast/its-all-cobblers-to-me/id1436309214?ls=1), Spotify (https://open.spotify.com/show/7b4wR8HR4zns2ocZguzl9f) and all other podcast platforms.

Or click here to listen  (https://audioboom.com/posts/7178152-it-s-all-cobblers-meets-the-ntfc-supporters-trust)


Thanks for that Wazza

Thought it was a very good interview, expressing some very fair stuff.

Should encourage a good turnout.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Boring Bar Steward on March 04, 2019, 16:32:35 pm
My overriding view, as somebody who has nothing to do with the Trust, is that some people have put in a great amount of personal time to get this put on.
Therefore I hope Cobblers supporters, from the Town AND beyond, put a note in their diary and make the small effort to turn up to listen to what is on offer and give a wide range of views and suggestions to the future we ALL want!


Title: Re: Community Ownership Public Meeting - Sunday 10th March
Post by: DrillingCobbler on March 04, 2019, 16:37:05 pm
Was wondering which contributors on this website are making the effort to come to this?



Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: meccanostand on March 04, 2019, 17:27:51 pm
My overriding view, as somebody who has nothing to do with the Trust, is that some people have put in a great amount of personal time to get this put on.
Therefore I hope Cobblers supporters, from the Town AND beyond, put a note in their diary and make the small effort to turn up to listen to what is on offer and give a wide range of views and suggestions to the future we ALL want!

Well said.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: In and out on March 04, 2019, 18:47:45 pm
What percentage of fans that don't use this message board know:-
a) This is happening.
b) There are concerns from other supporters.
Not once have I heard anything mentioned about this, other than on here,
or any issues with the East Stand. I go to all home and away games too.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Coolcat on March 04, 2019, 18:59:23 pm
An entertaining 3-3 draw with the MK Lightning winning on penalties 2-1.

Really good atmosphere throughout, lead by the drummers in block 6. Also a healthy contingent of Panthers fans made the trip from Nottingham.

Pint of spitfire £3.60, and the ticket £18.

A really good evening out too of a really good day of sport.
Kean's Head pub in the Lace Market area of Nottingham always seems to be a Panthers' stronghold when I've visited!


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: everbrite on March 05, 2019, 00:10:37 am
An entertaining 3-3 draw with the MK Lightning winning on penalties 2-1.

Really good atmosphere throughout, lead by the drummers in block 6. Also a healthy contingent of Panthers fans made the trip from Nottingham.

Pint of spitfire £3.60, and the ticket £18.

A really good evening out too of a really good day of sport.

Pint of Cider £2.50
Cobblers won
Good Natured and postive support of about 600
Great Sing Song by the Choral Society - mainly the 31 song.
Tkt was £15.00
Taylor played well as did JJOT.
Wife stayed at home

Of course its a moot point who enjoyed their day out ;)



Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: everbrite on March 05, 2019, 00:15:58 am
It appears that with the leases sorted that the original footprint is now back in the clubs control separate from CDNL land.
 ............................................................

..........................Time will tell but as Iím 45 I may not still be around to see itís fruition!
 

Well nipper life expectancy for men is now 80 to 90yrs so you should be ok 8)


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: wazzacobbler on March 05, 2019, 10:51:21 am
What percentage of fans that don't use this message board know:-
a) This is happening.
b) There are concerns from other supporters.
Not once have I heard anything mentioned about this, other than on here,
or any issues with the East Stand. I go to all home and away games too.

Hopefully things like the podcast interview, the Chron article and (if the Trust have told them) Radio Northampton will help reach people who are not on this messageboard.

The Trust have also advertised it on their social media channels and their own website. Like it or not, the internet is where most people get their information from these days.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Deepcut Cobbler on March 05, 2019, 11:03:19 am
Hopefully things like the podcast interview, the Chron article and (if the Trust have told them) Radio Northampton will help reach people who are not on this messageboard.

The Trust have also advertised it on their social media channels and their own website. Like it or not, the internet is where most people get their information from these days.

'Most people' that use the internet, there are a lot, especially amongst our support who don't.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: barton cobbler on March 05, 2019, 12:18:25 pm
All Trust members have had a letter about the meeting, the Chron did quite a big article in the week before last's edition and Radio Northampton have been informed of the meeting.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: clarkeysntfc on March 05, 2019, 12:35:50 pm
All Trust members have had a letter about the meeting.

Is that the 117 people who want to get correspondence from the trust or the bigger 700-odd number?


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: wazzacobbler on March 05, 2019, 14:15:31 pm
'Most people' that use the internet, there are a lot, especially amongst our support who don't.

Fair point Deepcut.

I would argue though that the Trust have been asking for "new blood" for a long, long time now and the younger generation is where the new blood will come from. Today's youth don't believe a world without the internet existed!

For those many fans who don't use the internet, the Chron's weekly edition and Radio Northampton will most likely be where they get their info from.

I have suggested to the Trust that perhaps they create a monthly newsletter which they can send out by email to all their members who have given GDPR consent to them. They could also maybe print them and send them in the post as well but then that costs money.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: barton cobbler on March 05, 2019, 14:25:10 pm
Is that the 117 people who want to get correspondence from the trust or the bigger 700-odd number?
ALL UK based Trust members should have been sent emails or letters. There are some Trust members that we do not have up to date details for, if you are one of these please get in touch so we can keep you in the loop.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Terryfenwickatemyhamster on March 05, 2019, 14:49:20 pm
ALL UK based Trust members should have been sent emails or letters. There are some Trust members that we do not have up to date details for, if you are one of these please get in touch so we can keep you in the loop.

I had mine.. I was told it was unique to have one with a seat number and a first class stamp on it...  ;D ;D

Thank You  :P


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Vintage Cobbler on March 05, 2019, 18:50:55 pm
Meanwhile at Swindon:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/47460890


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Coolcat on March 05, 2019, 19:55:08 pm
Meanwhile at Swindon:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/47460890
If the County Ground, Swindon is valued at £2.2 million... Sixfields should fetch £150,000!


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Terryfenwickatemyhamster on March 05, 2019, 20:15:16 pm
Meanwhile at Swindon:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/47460890

Right... Get those buckets out. £400 each... I'm up for it KT.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Another Pedj on March 05, 2019, 21:54:01 pm
All Trust members have had a letter about the meeting, the Chron did quite a big article in the week before last's edition and Radio Northampton have been informed of the meeting.

I havent. Having said that I only forwarded my contact details 3 weeks ago.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Deepcut Cobbler on March 05, 2019, 22:15:39 pm
What shares are they selling that will raise £1.1m?


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: barton cobbler on March 05, 2019, 23:59:30 pm
I havent. Having said that I only forwarded my contact details 3 weeks ago.
PM me please


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Manwork04 on March 06, 2019, 07:55:25 am
What shares are they selling that will raise £1.1m?
Infrastructure shares, you own a bit of the stadium.
This is how you raise capital against an asset, apt timing with the Swindon example,shame it doesn't fit the narrative of some of the more intelligent on here  ;D
There is nothing in principal from NTFC supporters doing the same.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Terryfenwickatemyhamster on March 06, 2019, 10:34:51 am
Infrastructure shares, you own a bit of the stadium.
This is how you raise capital against an asset, apt timing with the Swindon example,shame it doesn't fit the narrative of some of the more intelligent on here  ;D
There is nothing in principal from NTFC supporters doing the same.

Other than Swindon supporters are buying it straight from the ground owner. So they will own a percentage of the ground/land value "if" they purchase it. Which it would be fair to say should increase in value over time. Where as the Trust or whoever will be taking over a lease. So we would be buying into a diminishing asset if we bought shares. That will make a huge difference. I'm not even sure it would be legal to sell shares on a lease.

 


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: cobblerwatch on March 06, 2019, 11:10:48 am
Ok so it's Mr. Negative here today (or perhaps Mr. Jealous) -  it's a nice community type idea but realistically it's essentially a bucket collection where instead of a "thank you", you get a piece of paper saying you own a very small part of a non tradable asset.

Also interesting that the well meaning but clearly financially naÔve supporters group valued the ground at 50% less than the council's assessment - if they are that wrong on their other financial planning and take over the club, going bust would not be too far away.

Finally, thanks to the vote to make Britain poorer, there are an additional 3,500 Swindon residents who probably don't have the cash to buy a portion of the County Ground.



Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: BedsCobb on March 06, 2019, 14:31:15 pm
As a community based club, the selling of multiple seasons ticket sales to help pay for much needed ground redevelopment has to be the way forward, those investing into the clubs infrastructure will get value from frozen season tickets/corporate boxes, regardless of what division we find ourselves in.
The future shortfall will be taken up by new supporters attracted to a more professional set up.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: cobblerwatch on March 06, 2019, 15:38:17 pm
As a community based club, the selling of multiple seasons ticket sales to help pay for much needed ground redevelopment has to be the way forward, those investing into the clubs infrastructure will get value from frozen season tickets/corporate boxes, regardless of what division we find ourselves in.
The future shortfall will be taken up by new supporters attracted to a more professional set up.


It worked for Charlton for a while when they returned to the Valley - problem is it's essentially a pull forward and unless you get sustained better gates it only last so long.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: BackOfTheNet on March 06, 2019, 19:25:51 pm
As a community based club, the selling of multiple seasons ticket sales to help pay for much needed ground redevelopment has to be the way forward, those investing into the clubs infrastructure will get value from frozen season tickets/corporate boxes, regardless of what division we find ourselves in.
The future shortfall will be taken up by new supporters attracted to a more professional set up.


I was tempted to once again point out the flaws in this logic but then it dawned on me that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different outcome, so I'll leave that to you!


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Horsham Cobbler on March 06, 2019, 19:39:30 pm
I was tempted to once again point out the flaws in this logic but then it dawned on me that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different outcome, so I'll leave that to you!

 ;D


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: BedsCobb on March 06, 2019, 19:59:52 pm
I was tempted to once again point out the flaws in this logic but then it dawned on me that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different outcome, so I'll leave that to you!
Please enlighten? The fact your pall Thomas can't come up with workable ideas doesn't mean the rest of us cant? #footballman  ;D ;D


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: BedsCobb on March 06, 2019, 20:01:19 pm
;D
Thomas's fan club out in force ;D
#selfie #autograph


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: BedsCobb on March 06, 2019, 20:13:34 pm
It worked for Charlton for a while when they returned to the Valley - problem is it's essentially a pull forward and unless you get sustained better gates it only last so long.
Charlton Have a 30,000 capacity ground in a city saturated with football clubs,  fans are at a premium.
Unlike them we don't need to find 30k to turn up regularly, we just need an average 7000 plus locals with  500 plus visiting fans  to turn up fortnightly in order to allow our club to be sustainable and competitive  in league 1.
Please compare apples to apples to give a clear and logic view of what we could aspire to achieve.
I believe I'm being conservative in our potential support should we ever shake off the time wasters.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: The 12th Marquis of Sixfields on March 06, 2019, 20:56:48 pm
Charlton Have a 30,000 capacity ground in a city saturated with football clubs,  fans are at a premium.
Unlike them we don't need to find 30k to turn up regularly, we just need an average 7000 plus locals with  500 plus visiting fans  to turn up fortnightly in order to allow our club to be sustainable and competitive  in league 1.
Please compare apples to apples to give a clear and logic view of what we could aspire to achieve.
I believe I'm being conservative in our potential support should we ever shake off the time wasters.

hi, Sixfields can currently house your dream of an average 7500 with seats to spare


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: JollyCobbler on March 06, 2019, 21:02:58 pm
Other than Swindon supporters are buying it straight from the ground owner. So they will own a percentage of the ground/land value "if" they purchase it. Which it would be fair to say should increase in value over time. Where as the Trust or whoever will be taking over a lease. So we would be buying into a diminishing asset if we bought shares. That will make a huge difference. I'm not even sure it would be legal to sell shares on a lease.

 

I have to admit, I've the same concerns. Even assuming it could be done legally, I suspect it would require major changes to the agreement the club currently holds with the freeholder. Honestly, I've yet to hear one thing that makes this takeover scenario seem like anything other than a pipe dream... unless there is a substantially wealthy fan wants to 'gift' ownership to the supporters... and even then, Mr. Moneybags better be prepared to continue propping things up every time there is an issue with cash flow.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: SadOldGit on March 06, 2019, 21:06:20 pm
No it can't.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Horsham Cobbler on March 06, 2019, 22:15:40 pm
Thomas's fan club out in force ;D
#selfie #autograph
d

Back of the Net fan club, actually.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: everbrite on March 06, 2019, 22:52:01 pm
I was tempted to once again point out the flaws in this logic but then it dawned on me that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different outcome, so I'll leave that to you!

It also struck me that basically it is 3 or 4 on here who champion the same mantra on fan ownership over and over again. In some ways we are lucky to have a chairman who sees through all this twaddle. Without significant capital any fan ownership is a pipedream or even a con as it clearly might mislead others. On another tack Beds has done well to keep up with his belief in spite of some questionable comments by some.
Frankly for me Fan Ownership is a bore and its inherents on here bore me to tears - without a 'moneyed' backer they have no chance.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: BedsCobb on March 06, 2019, 23:07:53 pm
hi, Sixfields can currently house your dream of an average 7500 with seats to spare
You can't sell exactly 7500 seats for every game in the belief that exactly 7500 and no more will turn to up fill every seat and be happy to sit on their own in the rubbish front seats away from friends and family members..
Just imagine if we had a modernised12000 capacity, atmospheric staduim with 8000 plus fans sitting and standing in there prefered positions amoungst their friends? How much more attractive a proposition is that?
Having extra capacity is equivalent of having extra stock, it gives you an oppertunity to sell your product.
Hope that helps.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: BedsCobb on March 06, 2019, 23:18:56 pm
It also struck me that basically it is 3 or 4 on here who champion the same mantra on fan ownership over and over again. In some ways we are lucky to have a chairman who sees through all this twaddle. Without significant capital any fan ownership is a pipedream or even a con as it clearly might mislead others. On another tack Beds has done well to keep up with his belief in spite of some questionable comments by some.
Frankly for me Fan Ownership is a bore and its inherents on here bore me to tears - without a 'moneyed' backer they have no chance.
Thomas has no money to invest either, so no money with a community backed inititive is a lot more favourable  to no money invested from Thomas,  now its almost certain he can't make multi millions from free land deals which would've allowed him  to possibly drop a measly  token gesture into our club?





Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: BackOfTheNet on March 07, 2019, 06:40:39 am
It also struck me that basically it is 3 or 4 on here who champion the same mantra on fan ownership over and over again. In some ways we are lucky to have a chairman who sees through all this twaddle. Without significant capital any fan ownership is a pipedream or even a con as it clearly might mislead others. On another tack Beds has done well to keep up with his belief in spite of some questionable comments by some.
Frankly for me Fan Ownership is a bore and its inherents on here bore me to tears - without a 'moneyed' backer they have no chance.

It's not often I say this Evers, but I completely agree with you on that. A tiny but noisy minority could end up taking us down a very dangerous path on this. In many ways it's like having our own NTFC version of Momentum!


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Vintage Cobbler on March 07, 2019, 07:06:07 am
Some on here are intent on pouring cold water on a scheme of any type before one has even been adopted.  This is what Sunday is all about and only the first step.  Possibilities are to be explored and we will hear from other clubs what has happened there and how their ownership schemes are progressing, warts and all.  Supporters who are members of the Trust following Sundayís event will have an opportunity of selecting an ownership structure put forward or it could be a case of ďnone of the aboveĒ.  Let's see what is on the table first before turning it down.




Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: clarkeysntfc on March 07, 2019, 08:53:07 am
Charlton Have a 30,000 capacity ground

The Valley is a 27,111 capacity sports stadium (source: Wiki)


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Irchy cob on March 07, 2019, 08:59:54 am
It's not often I say this Evers, but I completely agree with you on that. A tiny but noisy minority could end up taking us down a very dangerous path on this. In many ways it's like having our own NTFC version of Momentum!

For what itís worth I agree totally with this - I feel that certain posters are definitely stirring things up and as you say this could be a dangerous path.


Title: Re: Community Ownership Public Meeting - Sunday 10th March
Post by: barton cobbler on March 07, 2019, 10:27:42 am
This is an invitation to ALL Cobblers fans, come along on Sunday and have a listen to what Supporters Direct and other clubs Trust's have to say, ask the question you are asking on here. Fan ownership, Community ownership or a hybrid of the two or neither, but don't just sit behind your keyboard with your fingers in your ears, come along and THEN make your mind up.


Title: Re: Community Ownership Public Meeting - Sunday 10th March
Post by: BackOfTheNet on March 07, 2019, 11:52:31 am
I won't be there. I have better things to do with my Sunday afternoon than listen to a load of idealistic, pie-in-the-sky twaddle for a couple of hours. I suspect the vast majority of other fans will have something better to do as well. My only worry is that there will be about a dozen or so people there, all nodding like dogs on a parcel shelf and bouncing off each other in an echo chamber of their own making, convincing each other it's the right way forwards.

I'm not so worried that I'll bother going though because unless they can raise the cash to buy KT out it's all a moot point. It just means there'll be loads more banging on about it on here for a few months to put up with...


Title: Re: Community Ownership Public Meeting - Sunday 10th March
Post by: Deepcut Cobbler on March 07, 2019, 13:04:55 pm
I won't be there. I have better things to do with my Sunday afternoon than listen to a load of idealistic, pie-in-the-sky twaddle for a couple of hours. I suspect the vast majority of other fans will have something better to do as well. My only worry is that there will be about a dozen or so people there, all nodding like dogs on a parcel shelf and bouncing off each other in an echo chamber of their own making, convincing each other it's the right way forwards.

I'm not so worried that I'll bother going though because unless they can raise the cash to buy KT out it's all a moot point. It just means there'll be loads more banging on about it on here for a few months to put up with...

Beds will be...


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Vintage Cobbler on March 07, 2019, 13:09:53 pm
For those of a conspiracy theory and/or negative mindset I would respond that this is utter tripe.

I see that the Trust Chairman, Andy Roberts, is appearing on BBC Níton tonight at 6pm.  Listen and learn.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: rebelspawn on March 07, 2019, 14:06:36 pm
It also struck me that basically it is 3 or 4 on here who champion the same mantra on fan ownership over and over again. In some ways we are lucky to have a chairman who sees through all this twaddle. Without significant capital any fan ownership is a pipedream or even a con as it clearly might mislead others. On another tack Beds has done well to keep up with his belief in spite of some questionable comments by some.
Frankly for me Fan Ownership is a bore and its inherents on here bore me to tears - without a 'moneyed' backer they have no chance.

I think calling it a 'con' is taking things a bit too far evers. That suggests that the trust is looking for personal gain at expense of the club/other supporters.

'Pipedream'  -maybe you are right. but is it not better to see what the options are and how they (the trust) think they can be achieved, before dismissing them outright?



Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: everbrite on March 07, 2019, 14:22:37 pm
For those of a conspiracy theory and/or negative mindset I would respond that this is utter tripe.

I see that the Trust Chairman, Andy Roberts, is appearing on BBC Níton tonight at 6pm.  Listen and learn.

No it isnít - itís an opinion. Donít be so rude.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: everbrite on March 07, 2019, 14:34:22 pm
I think calling it a 'con' is taking things a bit too far evers. That suggests that the trust is looking for personal gain at expense of the club/other supporters.

'Pipedream'  -maybe you are right. but is it not better to see what the options are and how they (the trust) think they can be achieved, before dismissing them outright?


Trust you to twist Ďconí to suit yr argument. I am a member of the trust and appreciate their work. Are you a member? Regarding options; without a figure head with big money itís still a pipedream and a potential misleading one at that.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Horsham Cobbler on March 07, 2019, 15:47:43 pm
You can't sell exactly 7500 seats for every game in the belief that exactly 7500 and no more will turn to up fill every seat and be happy to sit on their own in the rubbish front seats away from friends and family members..
Just imagine if we had a modernised12000 capacity, atmospheric staduim with 8000 plus fans sitting and standing in there prefered positions amoungst their friends? How much more attractive a proposition is that?
Having extra capacity is equivalent of having extra stock, it gives you an oppertunity to sell your product.
Hope that helps.

I work in the aviation industry so let me provide you with an analogy: no airline worth its salt goes out and commits itself to the committed expenditure of additional aircraft capacity "as an opportunity to sell its product". They will only do so if and when there is a sustainable demand (load factor) for seats which outstrips existing capacity. Why should football stadia expansion be any different.


Alternatively let's just ignore the economics and put a B747 on a B737-demand route in order to give passengers more room and a greater opportunity of getting their preferred seats.
 
And, actually, I'm not a "KT Man" Ö I'd rather have your autograph in my collection, if Jim can fix it.



Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: rebelspawn on March 07, 2019, 16:46:03 pm
Trust you to twist Ďconí to suit yr argument. I am a member of the trust and appreciate their work. Are you a member? Regarding options; without a figure head with big money itís still a pipedream and a potential misleading one at that.

First two words of your reply and you are making personal insults. you just can't help yourself can you?

Please confirm which definition of 'con' you meant then. because the only definition that fits the context you wrote it in is the following:

verb
verb: con; 3rd person present: cons; past tense: conned; past participle: conned; gerund or present participle: conning

    1.
    persuade (someone) to do or believe something by lying to them.
    synonyms:   swindle, defraud, cheat, trick, fleece, dupe, deceive, rook, exploit,

noun
noun: con; plural noun: cons

    1.
    an instance of deceiving or tricking someone.
    synonyms:   swindle, deception, trick, racket, bit of sharp practice, fraud; More


I am not sure what difference it makes whether i am a member of the trust or not. For the record i am not currently. I am also not the one that just accused them of trying to 'con' us into fan ownership either.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: everbrite on March 07, 2019, 16:58:58 pm
First two words of your reply and you are making personal insults. you just can't help yourself can you?

Please confirm which definition of 'con' you meant then. because the only definition that fits the context you wrote it in is the following:

verb
verb: con; 3rd person present: cons; past tense: conned; past participle: conned; gerund or present participle: conning

    1.
    persuade (someone) to do or believe something by lying to them.
    synonyms:   swindle, defraud, cheat, trick, fleece, dupe, deceive, rook, exploit,

noun
noun: con; plural noun: cons

    1.
    an instance of deceiving or tricking someone.
    synonyms:   swindle, deception, trick, racket, bit of sharp practice, fraud; More


I am not sure what difference it makes whether i am a member of the trust or not. For the record i am not currently. I am also not the one that just accused them of trying to 'con' us into fan ownership either.

I prefer not to take a lecture from one who insulted Beds on regular basis. You simply cannot help yourself. Stop trolling/harassing please.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: rebelspawn on March 07, 2019, 17:16:58 pm
I prefer not to take a lecture from one who insulted Beds on regular basis. You simply cannot help yourself. Stop trolling/harassing please.

Ah yes, the old - when you have lost the argument and have no valid counterpoints, just call them a troll - approach. Classy.

Coming from the guy with over 13000 posts your comment is laughable. You are the biggest troll on this forum.

Please apologise to the trust for accusing them of trying to con people. Moderators - that must come under libel/defamation forum rules surely?


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Another Pedj on March 07, 2019, 17:25:44 pm
Thomas has no money to invest either, so no money with a community backed inititive is a lot more favourable  to no money invested from Thomas,  now its almost certain he can't make multi millions from free land deals which would've allowed him  to possibly drop a measly  token gesture into our club?





Wrong. He is investing every week. We are loosing money. It can be argued that its his fault but the fact remains more cash is injected monthly.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Irchy cob on March 07, 2019, 17:28:02 pm
Wrong. He is investing every week. We are loosing money. It can be argued that its his fault but the fact remains more cash is injected monthly.

Careful - Beds will accuse you of being in the KT fan club!


Title: Re: Fan Ownership!
Post by: everbrite on March 07, 2019, 17:57:56 pm
Ah yes, the old - when you have lost the argument and have no valid counterpoints, just call them a troll - approach. Classy.

Coming from the guy with over 13000 posts your comment is laughable. You are the biggest troll on this forum.

Please apologise to the trust for accusing them of trying to con people. Moderators - that must come under libel/defamation forum rules surely?

Thanks for your message on use of Con. It was aimed at other posters! Nothing to do with the Trust. Incidentally your treatment of Cobblers78 was grossly unfair. Some of the terms you used for Beds & 78 were not worthy of somebody with your qualifications. Many of my posts are smileys ; you go round
Manchester to get to Liverpool. On a different note if you are not going on Saturday may I please borrow yr s/t for a tenner? Thks


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Terryfenwickatemyhamster on March 07, 2019, 18:22:27 pm
Thereís no point in scrapping with each other over the merits for or against fan ownership. At this point nothing is on the table to discuss.

I have no clue what exactly some people are promoting here. Unless they know something I donít.

This saga will roll on for some time to come. Iím getting back on the fence 😁


Title: Re: Fan Ownership!
Post by: rebelspawn on March 07, 2019, 18:22:35 pm
Thanks for your message on use of Con. 1.It was aimed at other posters! Nothing to do with the Trust. Incidentally your treatment of Cobblers78 was grossly unfair. Some of the terms you used for Beds & 78 were not worthy of 2.somebody with your qualifications. 3.Many of my posts are smileys ; you go round
Manchester to get to Liverpool
. 4. On a different note if you are not going on Saturday may I please borrow yr s/t for a tenner? Thks


1. So let me get this straight, you think there are posters on here who are trying to con the fan base at large into fan ownership? to what end?
2.You know nothing about my qualifications
3. By which you mean - you rarely offer any opinions on the topics at hand, drop short personal insults and dismiss any opinion that you do not share as 'bias drivel, 'rubbish' or similar, whereas i routinely i support my opinions with evidence, which sometimes results in long posts containing such evidence.
4. no idea what the point of that comment is


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: JollyCobbler on March 07, 2019, 19:01:40 pm
I'm loving tonight's Cobbler's Show on Radio Northampton, especially how the guy on the mic, the guy from the Trust, and the fella from the club, they are all banging on about being 'ITK' about the 'sticking block' surrounding finishing of the East Stand, and yet none of them are willing to go public on the issue. Such transparency: #fiveminutesofwastedairtime  ;D

I'm also loving how James Whiting is getting all hot under the collar about this 'fan ownership' issue, and having a bit of a pop at the Trusts lack of transparency: #potkettleblack ::)


Title: Re: Community Ownership Public Meeting - Sunday 10th March
Post by: BackOfTheNet on March 07, 2019, 19:15:30 pm
Beds will be...

I'm definitely not going then!  ;D


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: guest3114 on March 07, 2019, 20:18:27 pm
I work in the aviation industry so let me provide you with an analogy: no airline worth its salt goes out and commits itself to the committed expenditure of additional aircraft capacity "as an opportunity to sell its product". They will only do so if and when there is a sustainable demand (load factor) for seats which outstrips existing capacity. Why should football stadia expansion be any different.


Alternatively let's just ignore the economics and put a B747 on a B737-demand route in order to give passengers more room and a greater opportunity of getting their preferred seats.
 
And, actually, I'm not a "KT Man" Ö I'd rather have your autograph in my collection, if Jim can fix it.


Now youíve done it, donít quote anything from the squalid world of professional management on here. Itís like poking the bear with a stick. To be honest I kind of sit in both camps. I think fan ownership based on the German model is a fantastic aspiration to have, and the only way to run a football club that is truly done so in the interests of the fan base. However, in my opinion as I have said over and over again it will only be possible with a huge cash investment from the fan base itself supported by additional investment from the corporate world. The fact is though the majority has to come from the fan base. If it doesnít it wonít be fan controlled and there would be nothing to stop us ending up right back where we started, which is pointless. I have neither now nor have never been under the illusion that this will be anything but a massive and probably insurmountable challenge, and neither should anyone else. All this simplistic talk of easy options to get this off the ground detracts from the realities that need to be faced. Otherwise at best this exercise will end up being a waste or time and effort. And some of the posters on this subject also have a valid point, it might also be dangerous. That being said I am always prepared to listen to credible alternatives. From my perspective l am yet to see one, but that doesnít mean they are not there.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Vintage Cobbler on March 07, 2019, 20:25:17 pm
MC, don't jump the gun, too many are doing that already.  Sunday first and then let's see.



Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: guest3114 on March 07, 2019, 20:30:13 pm
MC, don't jump the gun, too many are doing that already.  Sunday first and then let's see.


Good point well made, hope itís positive?


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: SadOldGit on March 07, 2019, 21:39:22 pm
Whether it has been tried before and failed is really irrelevant. There are plenty of ways to skin a cat. Whatever your current view just close your eyes and think about it for a minute. Football clubs are unlike any other sporting club because of the way a localised group buys into it in such a way that it enters the bloodstream. Owners / philanthropists / nutters pass through trying to make sense of it or make cents from it but ultimately pass on. It has changed at the top end now because it is so lucrative but at our level it still remains close to impossible to profit financially from it unless there is a desire to **** it through asset-stripping. The only safe hands are those of the supporters who would always resist the urge to abuse it.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Deepcut Cobbler on March 07, 2019, 22:06:09 pm
Is that the 117 people who want to get correspondence from the trust or the bigger 700-odd number?

Most were handed leaflets at Crewe...


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Terryfenwickatemyhamster on March 08, 2019, 05:31:45 am
The only safe hands are those of the supporters who would always resist the urge to abuse it.

Strange how the mantra changes depending on the agenda.

Originally the issue was the club stagnating. Now itís being saved from actual abuse  ;D





Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Boring Bar Steward on March 08, 2019, 05:44:40 am
I think Sundays meeting is important because the conversation needs to be had. There is too much sitting on hands been going on, so if there is an alternative investigate it!
If it is 100% or 20% investment into NTFC you will not find out unless you discuss the journey required. It might not stack up but let's find out.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: BackOfTheNet on March 08, 2019, 07:12:48 am

I'm also loving how James Whiting is getting all hot under the collar about this 'fan ownership' issue, and having a bit of a pop at the Trusts lack of transparency: #potkettleblack ::)

So what did James Whiting actually have to say on the topic?


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Vintage Cobbler on March 08, 2019, 07:55:50 am
(link: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p070ks9x) bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p0Ö


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: BedsCobb on March 08, 2019, 08:07:38 am
I work in the aviation industry so let me provide you with an analogy: no airline worth its salt goes out and commits itself to the committed expenditure of additional aircraft capacity "as an opportunity to sell its product". They will only do so if and when there is a sustainable demand (load factor) for seats which outstrips existing capacity. Why should football stadia expansion be any different.


Alternatively let's just ignore the economics and put a B747 on a B737-demand route in order to give passengers more room and a greater opportunity of getting their preferred seats.
 
And, actually, I'm not a "KT Man" Ö I'd rather have your autograph in my collection, if Jim can fix it.


Another way to look at it, your planes are the 1970s Aeroflot variety that few costumers are happy to travel on, you have very few travelling with you.
What would you do? Modernise your fleet to expect more new customers to book flights.
Or go down the NTFC route and do absolutely nothing in 20 years,  just carry on in dilapidated ground/planes relying on a small band of loyal customers to just keep coming back?
Just 1% regulars amoungst our 300,000 catchment really needs to be improved by a whole 1%.



Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: BedsCobb on March 08, 2019, 08:16:26 am
Wrong. He is investing every week. We are loosing money. It can be argued that its his fault but the fact remains more cash is injected monthly.
Had he fitted in the corporate boxes when he said he would, we'd probably still holding our own in the division above, getting dozens of sell out gates,  also getting financial  help from the dozen or so large companies occupying them.

You cant call paying for any shortfalls due to your mistakes as 'investing' in the club!


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: SadOldGit on March 08, 2019, 08:22:06 am
Strange how the mantra changes depending on the agenda.

Originally the issue was the club stagnating. Now itís being saved from actual abuse  ;D





Are you saying Cardoza, the Blackpool geezer, Charlton geezer, Coventry geezers etc didn't abuse the club's they own/owned?


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: rebelspawn on March 08, 2019, 09:19:12 am
Another way to look at it, your planes are the 1970s Aeroflot variety that few costumers are happy to travel on, you have very few travelling with you.
What would you do? Modernise your fleet to expect more new customers to book flights.
Or go down the NTFC route and do absolutely nothing in 20 years,  just carry on in dilapidated ground/planes relying on a small band of loyal customers to just keep coming back?
Just 1% regulars amoungst our 300,000 catchment really needs to be improved by a whole 1%.



What if the real reason that no-one is flying with you is that you are flying to unappealing destinations? You upgrade your fleet, continue to fly to unappealing destinations, see no uptake in passengers, and go bankrupt.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: rebelspawn on March 08, 2019, 09:21:35 am
Now youíve done it, donít quote anything from the squalid world of professional management on here. Itís like poking the bear with a stick. To be honest I kind of sit in both camps. I think fan ownership based on the German model is a fantastic aspiration to have, and the only way to run a football club that is truly done so in the interests of the fan base. However, in my opinion as I have said over and over again it will only be possible with a huge cash investment from the fan base itself supported by additional investment from the corporate world. The fact is though the majority has to come from the fan base. If it doesnít it wonít be fan controlled and there would be nothing to stop us ending up right back where we started, which is pointless. I have neither now nor have never been under the illusion that this will be anything but a massive and probably insurmountable challenge, and neither should anyone else. All this simplistic talk of easy options to get this off the ground detracts from the realities that need to be faced. Otherwise at best this exercise will end up being a waste or time and effort. And some of the posters on this subject also have a valid point, it might also be dangerous. That being said I am always prepared to listen to credible alternatives. From my perspective l am yet to see one, but that doesnít mean they are not there.

This sums up my views quite well. However, we haven't even had the first meeting yet, so lets see what that brings. I remain open minded but mindful of exactly how difficult the financial side of things could be.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: clarkeysntfc on March 08, 2019, 09:22:54 am
I'm loving tonight's Cobbler's Show on Radio Northampton, especially how the guy on the mic, the guy from the Trust, and the fella from the club, they are all banging on about being 'ITK' about the 'sticking block' surrounding finishing of the East Stand, and yet none of them are willing to go public on the issue. Such transparency: #fiveminutesofwastedairtime  ;D

I'm also loving how James Whiting is getting all hot under the collar about this 'fan ownership' issue, and having a bit of a pop at the Trusts lack of transparency: #potkettleblack ::)

The trust are as opaque as the club, perhaps even more so.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Manwork04 on March 08, 2019, 09:35:59 am
Just listened to the programme, ohhhhhhh the Trust are ruffling a few of peacock Thomas's feathers, keep up the good work.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Irchy cob on March 08, 2019, 09:42:15 am
Just listened to the programme, ohhhhhhh the Trust are ruffling a few of peacock Thomas's feathers, keep up the good work.

As Iíve said before if the ďend gameĒ is to buy the club from KT then what is the logic in p**ing him off - itís not like the trust are going to launch a hostile takeover?


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: BedsCobb on March 08, 2019, 12:04:34 pm
As Iíve said before if the ďend gameĒ is to buy the club from KT then what is the logic in p**ing him off - itís not like the trust are going to launch a hostile takeover?
Its going to be very hard of KT and co to continue with this 4 season long regime of closely gaurded agendas with nothing in the way of progress while we further regress behind all our rival clubs.
As someone else mentioned on here, be prepared for his ace card as without it he's finished as a genuine owner with ambition for our club.

It's our football league membership and small but loyal fan base that keeps our club afloat, so them being pi55ed off with us not wanting anymore nonsence from them doesn't even register, and he probably knows it.

Having listened to the BBC npton podcast,  it did seem Whiting was properly rattled.
He above anyone should realise the damage that 20 years of continuous poor ownership is doing  to our club.




Title: Re: Community Ownership Public Meeting - Sunday 10th March
Post by: BedsCobb on March 08, 2019, 13:26:50 pm
I'm definitely not going then!  ;D
see ya there ;)


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: clarkeysntfc on March 08, 2019, 16:34:40 pm
Interesting to hear the trust say that they have not got any money / no backer.

Really interested to see the business case on how they will fund the takeover and maintain cash flow for the business.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: barton cobbler on March 08, 2019, 16:47:36 pm
Interesting to hear the trust say that they have not got any money / no backer.
When did you hear that ??


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: BackOfTheNet on March 08, 2019, 17:06:21 pm
Having now listened to the RN show, I wouldn't say James Whiting sounded rattled, I'd say he just sounded mildly peeved at the tone of some of the comms which have gone out from the Trust, which to be honest I can understand.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: clarkeysntfc on March 08, 2019, 18:08:40 pm
The trust interviewee, as articulate as he is, presents absolutely no substance of any kind.

He was asked directly around 25m 40s "are you putting together a bid to buy the club?" and gave no evidence that there is a quantifiable solution in place.



Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: barton cobbler on March 08, 2019, 18:24:50 pm
The trust interviewee, as articulate as he is, presents absolutely no substance of any kind.
He was asked directly around 25m 40s "are you putting together a bid to buy the club?" and gave no evidence that there is a quantifiable solution in place.
You really need to listen again  ::)


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: BedsCobb on March 08, 2019, 19:53:58 pm
The trust interviewee, as articulate as he is, presents absolutely no substance of any kind.

He was asked directly around 25m 40s "are you putting together a bid to buy the club?" and gave no evidence that there is a quantifiable solution in place.


There's none deafer than those who dont want to listen.
Its obvious that the Trust dont want to get into a war of words or show their hand before gathering feed back from the town and support base.
I thought the trust spokesperson was very gracious in his praise to those who worked for Cardoza and are still working for the club under Thomas.
NTFC is worth a pound and has a serious lack of infrastructure, a new regime will see the town rally behind the club if it can finally shake of those holding us back.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: clarkeysntfc on March 08, 2019, 22:19:59 pm
There's none deafer than those who dont want to listen.
Its obvious that the Trust dont want to get into a war of words or show their hand before gathering feed back from the town and support base.
I thought the trust spokesperson was very gracious in his praise to those who worked for Cardoza and are still working for the club under Thomas.
NTFC is worth a pound and has a serious lack of infrastructure, a new regime will see the town rally behind the club if it can finally shake of those holding us back.

Well if David Cadden likes it then I'm sold  ;D ;D


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: guest3114 on March 08, 2019, 23:29:48 pm
Well if David Cadden likes it then I'm sold  ;D ;D
If heís right about it being worth a pound so am I. Just have to get KT to accept the bid, what could possibly go wrong?


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: guest3114 on March 09, 2019, 03:09:36 am
Well, being the weekend I listened to the show. Thought Andy R accounted himself pretty well and James Whiting gave the usual sound bites one would expect. Itís still my opinion that the East Stand will never be developed whilst the current owners are in place. Itís also my opinion that this was probably always the case? This is not a criticism, just common sense really. The current model means that someone comes in, invests, can make a few quid and the club moves forward both off and on the pitch, to everyoneís mutual benefit. Nothing wrong with that in principle and most understand thatís the way it works? The frustration for many that understand this is that the supporters havenít really seen anything tangible to appease the feeling that we have been short changed on our end of the bargain to date? No offence but all this talk of the trimmings doing really well doesnít matter a stuff to the average supporter. When the owners took on the club we were told funds were in place to develop the stand? For me that didnít say anything more than they had the money to do it if it was commercially attractive to do so? The thing is they can highlight the successful operation of the club both internally and within the community but it doesnít deflect from the fact that both the measure and growth of any club is intrinsically linked to the attendance, which is in turn is directly correlated to the league position and performances on the pitch despite argument to the contrary by some. Therefore we have been in free fall in a tail spin and no amount of spin and rhetoric is going to hide that. As it stood it was not really commercially viable to develop the stand anyway, and since the club has been in free fall on the pitch it definitely isnít. Therefore the ongoing deadlock is possibly nothing more than a convenient smokescreen to deflect from the fact that the current owners have currently no intention of spending the money, and they have said as much. To be honest dispassionately speaking rightly so as well, theyíd me mad at the current time? Therefore this constant questioning about the deadlock is pointless because it probably serves a purpose and is in fact very convenient? If the status quo is ever broken things could get a tad more uncomfortable so itís probably important to hang it out as long as possible? My unanswered question is more about the plan when the owners took over the club? It was hardly ideal with KT being in the states and they had no prior love for the club? Therefore what was the motivation to commit this amount of time and resource to what is if we are honest a very risky business? Donít tell me it was because they like football because that would be complete bollocks. The current owners are no fools and there was a very specific purpose, plan and goal that made involvement attractive. How close have they got to achieving that goal, and is it still even achievable? Answer that and you will understand the true value of the club at anyone time and the current owners appetite to sell, which at this point in time may be relevant? All speculation on my part of course. But Iím just a humble supporter, so what do I know?


Title: Re: Community Ownership Public Meeting - Sunday 10th March
Post by: everbrite on March 09, 2019, 08:56:13 am
This is an invitation to ALL Cobblers fans, come along on Sunday and have a listen to what Supporters Direct and other clubs Trust's have to say, ask the question you are asking on here. Fan ownership, Community ownership or a hybrid of the two or neither, but don't just sit behind your keyboard with your fingers in your ears, come along and THEN make your mind up.

Please accept my apologies as unable to attend as running an event for displaced and disadvantaged BMW owners to Coventry Transport Museum. All the best thoí.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: SadOldGit on March 09, 2019, 09:18:06 am
Presumably their motivation was the same as Cardoza - to make some bucks from the land (development or otherwise). The Dubai fella was well into that. The fact that their motivation is similar to Cardoza and they intimated they would finish the stand is what makes them untrusted and unpopular?


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Another Pedj on March 09, 2019, 09:58:47 am
Unpopular with whom?

Didn't we have a vote on this only a few weeks ago?


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: SadOldGit on March 09, 2019, 12:24:05 pm
Unpopular with a lot of fans.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Deepcut Cobbler on March 09, 2019, 14:14:33 pm
Unpopular with a lot of fans.

Who is?


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Terryfenwickatemyhamster on March 09, 2019, 18:13:08 pm
Unpopular with a lot of fans.

I bet you are  :P


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: WadeyCobbler on March 09, 2019, 23:47:56 pm
I wonder how many will attend the meeting on Sunday, 200-250? I may struggle to get there in time. Pity it isn't a bit later in the day. Bang on Sunday lunchtime will probably put a few off going (I'm being serious).


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: BedsCobb on March 10, 2019, 03:10:23 am
I wonder how many will attend the meeting on Sunday, 200-250? I may struggle to get there in time. Pity it isn't a bit later in the day. Bang on Sunday lunchtime will probably put a few off going (I'm being serious).
there will  be a lot more than the 12 that turned up to listen to Thomas and Whiting last week 😂😂


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: SadOldGit on March 10, 2019, 08:35:38 am
Yeah. Well..... They live in the real world. Itís always easy when youíve fcuk all to lose. Imagine waking up on a Monday with a pack of dicks on ya back. How lucky are we???

What on earth are you on about? With an 'administrator' making comments like that, no wonder this board attracts a lot of rude folk.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: The 12th Marquis of Sixfields on March 10, 2019, 16:37:24 pm
I see from the leaflet posted on Twitter that they would want to dictate the tactics the club used? Also, the attributes they want in the players the club signs, well, every club in the world wants them don't they?
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D1TqZPSWkAATkR6.jpg)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D1TqZ4-WkAABIg5.jpg)


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: everbrite on March 10, 2019, 16:44:01 pm
there will  be a lot more than the 12 that turned up to listen to Thomas and Whiting last week 😂😂

Sock it to Ďem Mr Cadden - sock it to them!


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Irchy cob on March 10, 2019, 16:49:37 pm
Looking on Twitter bits of the presentation seem to have gone viral - and not in a good way.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: everbrite on March 10, 2019, 16:54:31 pm
What on earth are you on about? With an 'administrator' making comments like that, no wonder this board attracts a lot of rude folk.

Well you do set yourself up!


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Another Pedj on March 10, 2019, 17:03:19 pm
I see from the leaflet posted on Twitter that they would want to dictate the tactics the club used? Also, the attributes they want in the players the club signs, well, every club in the world wants them don't they?
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D1TqZPSWkAATkR6.jpg)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D1TqZ4-WkAABIg5.jpg)

Who posted that load of tosh. Somebody is taking the Mackey. That cannot be from the Trust.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Irchy cob on March 10, 2019, 17:09:08 pm
Itís got meccanoís fingerprints all over it - youíd like to think the trust had some kind of a say and didnít just regurgitate it.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Deepcut Cobbler on March 10, 2019, 17:26:40 pm
It's a spoof from someone against the idea........ isn't it?


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Peles Big Toe on March 10, 2019, 17:38:57 pm
Honestly I like the ambition, but it does come across as naive and idealistic in the extreme.

There's too much volatility in the lower leagues to be able to implement any overriding philosophy. If you manage to play anything resembling attractive successful football, all momentum is lost as the players/manager quickly get poached by bigger clubs.

Would definitely like to see investment in the facilities though. If you have a solid infrastructure, it at least sets the club up to get the very best of whoever we have at the time. Unfortunately also requires millions of pounds so is equally unlikely.

The only significant factor that drives sustained progression up the pyramid is the size of the playing budget. So without a wealthy benefactor, the club will intermittent spells of good and bad period, but will ultimately largely stay around the level we always have. Same every other club of out stature, and I don't think any long term vision without investment can change that.

What I'd most want from fan ownership is a commitment to off the field matters. Anything that could improve the matchday experience, or engage the wider community with the club.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Another Pedj on March 10, 2019, 17:53:29 pm
It's a spoof from someone against the idea........ isn't it?

To be fair I think it is. Someone us playing games and that doesn't do us any good at all


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: wazzacobbler on March 10, 2019, 18:19:21 pm
To be fair I think it is. Someone us playing games and that doesn't do us any good at all

That is the document that was handed out to all attendees today.
It was posted on Twitter by Neil from the podcast who went to the meeting.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Terryfenwickatemyhamster on March 10, 2019, 18:36:42 pm
What on earth are you on about? With an 'administrator' making comments like that, no wonder this board attracts a lot of rude folk.

Donít be too hard on yourself.. Uninformed..yes. Rude... no..   8)


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: BackOfTheNet on March 10, 2019, 18:53:05 pm
Well, aside from that flyer being a farcical load of old toss, what actually happened at the meeting earlier? Did anyone go? I just came on here after a busy afternoon fixing the rabbit hutch expecting it to be abuzz with the exciting takeover plans but there's next to nothing?!?!


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: In and out on March 10, 2019, 19:52:02 pm
There was alot of fans at the game that only heard about the project yesterday, let alone the meeting today. This could lead to an apathy of 'why is it me that's always the last to know anything'.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: tcobb on March 10, 2019, 20:02:45 pm
Having just read the leaflet, I am even more convinced that fan ownership is not to be pursued.
 Quite disturbing that some people think that is the way forward, frightening really.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: SadOldGit on March 10, 2019, 20:03:25 pm
Donít be too hard on yourself.. Uninformed..yes. Rude... no..   8)

Can you please explain yourself?


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: BackOfTheNet on March 10, 2019, 20:41:33 pm
Having just read the leaflet, I am even more convinced that fan ownership is not to be pursued.
 Quite disturbing that some people think that is the way forward, frightening really.

I've been fairly vociferous in my objection to the whole fan ownership idea. In truth, I think it's good to have fan representation on the board, but that seat should be bought and paid for in the same way as any other investor's seat at the table, otherwise it's nothing more than a token gesture of appeasement from the majority shareholders that can be ignored at will.

If that was what was being proposed, I'd have a bit more time for it. I know the official line was "we don't know what this will look like, the meeting is to figure that out", but reading the rhetoric from certain individuals I think they knew exactly what they thought it should/would look like and that seemed to be based on an almost child-like, simplistic view of how everything ought to work, that neglects to take into account how things do actually work (a bit like Corbyn's social policy  ;D)

My hope for today was that the grand designs of a few hopeless romantics would be laid bare for all to see in an emperor's new clothes style and we can go back to having a more pragmatic take on fan involvement. I'll be genuinely interested to hear how the meeting panned out, but if that toe-curlingly embarrassing paperwork that was given out is anything to go by I think I can guess....


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Teachers Pet on March 10, 2019, 20:45:36 pm
Having just read the leaflet, I am even more convinced that fan ownership is not to be pursued.
 Quite disturbing that some people think that is the way forward, frightening really.

I agree, frightening. How can you tell someone how to manager a football team and what the players attributes need to be, any manager in their right minds would run a mile including KC I would suggest.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Another Pedj on March 10, 2019, 21:12:58 pm
It looks like that leaflet may be genuine. If so, for all their good intentions, that effectively kills off any involvement by the trust in the future. Any suggestion that they can be involved in the running of a professional football club is simply  laughable.



Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: In and out on March 10, 2019, 21:26:51 pm
That leaflet is scaring me, and counts me out of any support for the project/dictatorship.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Tabasco Kid on March 10, 2019, 21:30:53 pm
"Technical innovation in the art of hitting the net" Who wrote that load of crap?
In the nature of my work, I have seen a lot of mission statements, but this one truly made me cringe. I am a member of the trust, but sorry lads, you have just shot yourselves in the foot.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Teachers Pet on March 10, 2019, 21:44:00 pm
"Player DNA"  ??? "Gentlemen"  :P

 "How many of our current players fit this criteria." I wonder what the players at the club think to that question. Complete and utter tosh I'm afraid to say.
 


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Grove on March 10, 2019, 21:46:08 pm
Not really thought this through have they  ;D


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: BackOfTheNet on March 10, 2019, 21:51:58 pm
Not really thought this through have they  ;D

More worryingly, I think they have, and this is what they came up with... :o


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: guest3114 on March 10, 2019, 23:23:41 pm
Personally speaking I would really like to read a full report on the meeting before forming a judgment on anything. Its most unfortunate that the document was the first tangible constituent to come from the meeting that I have seen. Viewed in isolation I think most reasonable people reading that document would have concerns about the caliber of the individuals steering this process?


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: wazzacobbler on March 10, 2019, 23:38:38 pm
I too would like to see a full report and I have asked the Trust on Twitter if anyone took minutes that I could see. Unfortunately, even though the Trust have been active on social media since I asked the question, I'm yet to receive an answer


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Ryan Amoo 14 on March 10, 2019, 23:48:11 pm
That flyer shows a terrifying but entirely predictable detachment from reality. 


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Parklands Cobbler on March 11, 2019, 09:05:30 am
Did anyone who looks at this forum attend the meeting?
A brief run down on what was said would be nice to know.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: shoearmy on March 11, 2019, 09:19:41 am
Did anyone who looks at this forum attend the meeting?
A brief run down on what was said would be nice to know.

I was at the meeting along with about 100 fans, Trust members, journalists, NTFC employees and local business people.

Handing out this document at the meeting was a mistake, it doesnít represent what was discussed, has some very silly statements and should be disregarded.

We heard from fan ownership at Portsmouth and Exeter direct from the people involved and it was interesting to hear their experiences. In these two examples it was proven that fan ownership in Pompeyís case saved the club from oblivion and steadied the ship for a few years before being acquired by Michael Eisner and in Exeterís case has enhanced community involvement and given the trust an equal voting position on the board (50/50) giving fans more say on what happens off the pitch.

There are a lot of business models for this approach and Andy/Kevin from the trust were clear that this is not a hostile takeover bid and the purpose of the meeting was to see how others have done it and start to discuss fan ownership approaches that might work for the Cobblers.

Exeterís model might be great for Northampton Town. Especially to provide clarity over off the pitch decisions/direction and actually make visible improvements to our Ďcommunityí stadium.

It does also seem that some local businesses would want to be seen to support the community through this initiative.

My concern on what I heard yesterday was an uncomfortable undercurrent of negativity from the Trust panel and some involved people who were asking questions about the current owners.

If the true intention of this is an Exeter style model for the Cobblers then everyone needs to buy into that including the current owners and it doesnít sound at the moment that this is the case. This for me is the sticking point and needs to be addressed before Iím interested in joining any future meetings.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Parklands Cobbler on March 11, 2019, 09:37:50 am
Thanks Shoe army


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: clarkeysntfc on March 11, 2019, 11:17:46 am
I was at the meeting along with about 100 fans, Trust members, journalists, NTFC employees and local business people.

Handing out this document at the meeting was a mistake, it doesnít represent what was discussed, has some very silly statements and should be disregarded.

We heard from fan ownership at Portsmouth and Exeter direct from the people involved and it was interesting to hear their experiences. In these two examples it was proven that fan ownership in Pompeyís case saved the club from oblivion and steadied the ship for a few years before being acquired by Michael Eisner and in Exeterís case has enhanced community involvement and given the trust an equal voting position on the board (50/50) giving fans more say on what happens off the pitch.

There are a lot of business models for this approach and Andy/Kevin from the trust were clear that this is not a hostile takeover bid and the purpose of the meeting was to see how others have done it and start to discuss fan ownership approaches that might work for the Cobblers.

Exeterís model might be great for Northampton Town. Especially to provide clarity over off the pitch decisions/direction and actually make visible improvements to our Ďcommunityí stadium.

It does also seem that some local businesses would want to be seen to support the community through this initiative.

My concern on what I heard yesterday was an uncomfortable undercurrent of negativity from the Trust panel and some involved people who were asking questions about the current owners.

If the true intention of this is an Exeter style model for the Cobblers then everyone needs to buy into that including the current owners and it doesnít sound at the moment that this is the case. This for me is the sticking point and needs to be addressed before Iím interested in joining any future meetings.

The bit in bold is the key bit for me.

In order to get anywhere near fan ownership the Trust has got to earn the trust of the people it claims to represent and start acting in true partnership with the current board at NTFC to secure a handover. The current behaviour I am seeing suggests that nothing of the sort is happening, and they're actually alienating the NTFC staff.

I am a supporter of fan ownership in principle but the sheer naivety of the discussions & the document handed out yesterday is absolutely frightening.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Deepcut Cobbler on March 11, 2019, 11:39:58 am
I was at the meeting along with about 100 fans, Trust members, journalists, NTFC employees and local business people.

Handing out this document at the meeting was a mistake, it doesn’t represent what was discussed, has some very silly statements and should be disregarded.

We heard from fan ownership at Portsmouth and Exeter direct from the people involved and it was interesting to hear their experiences. In these two examples it was proven that fan ownership in Pompey’s case saved the club from oblivion and steadied the ship for a few years before being acquired by Michael Eisner and in Exeter’s case has enhanced community involvement and given the trust an equal voting position on the board (50/50) giving fans more say on what happens off the pitch.

There are a lot of business models for this approach and Andy/Kevin from the trust were clear that this is not a hostile takeover bid and the purpose of the meeting was to see how others have done it and start to discuss fan ownership approaches that might work for the Cobblers.

Exeter’s model might be great for Northampton Town. Especially to provide clarity over off the pitch decisions/direction and actually make visible improvements to our ‘community’ stadium.

It does also seem that some local businesses would want to be seen to support the community through this initiative.

My concern on what I heard yesterday was an uncomfortable undercurrent of negativity from the Trust panel and some involved people who were asking questions about the current owners.

If the true intention of this is an Exeter style model for the Cobblers then everyone needs to buy into that including the current owners and it doesn’t sound at the moment that this is the case. This for me is the sticking point and needs to be addressed before I’m interested in joining any future meetings.

Can't believe that someone agreed to the release of the document.  Irrespective of the variance of what was actually discussed, that shows the behind the scenes youth football level of thinking to have produced and agreed that in the first place.  It is the only hard copy document that those who attended and those who didn't have to refer to when the meeting is closed. 
Someone can come on and defend or give their alternative view of the document claiming that it doesn't reflect the overall intention but unfortunately that was a real 'blighty'.

At the end of the day, the ability to raise and sustain the funding of the football club is still the main stopper regarding any 'fan ownership'.  Until that is resolved with a fail-safe proposal, this will continue to remain a pipedream.  I would love us to own our own club but until this happens, along with a reliable and credible management plan, I will vote to remain under the current or similar private ownership.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: clarkeysntfc on March 11, 2019, 12:32:27 pm
https://www.northamptonchron.co.uk/sport/football/supporters-trust-public-meeting-round-up-of-the-the-launch-of-project-proud-to-be-1-8842883

Can I suggest that the mods merge this thread with the other one about the meeting itself?


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: guest3114 on March 11, 2019, 13:35:47 pm
Can't believe that someone agreed to the release of the document.  Irrespective of the variance of what was actually discussed, that shows the behind the scenes youth football level of thinking to have produced and agreed that in the first place.  It is the only hard copy document that those who attended and those who didn't have to refer to when the meeting is closed. 
Someone can come on and defend or give their alternative view of the document claiming that it doesn't reflect the overall intention but unfortunately that was a real 'blighty'.

At the end of the day, the ability to raise and sustain the funding of the football club is still the main stopper regarding any 'fan ownership'.  Until that is resolved with a fail-safe proposal, this will continue to remain a pipedream.  I would love us to own our own club but until this happens, along with a reliable and credible management plan, I will vote to remain under the current or similar private ownership.
Was going to comment DC but you have saved me the trouble, that about hits the proverbial nail on the head. It was absolutely crucial that the attendees were motivated to engage in the process positively. Credibility regarding fan ownership was always going to be a challenge and that document was most unhelpful. At this point in time there are only 3 things that matter with regards to this whole process, how much, where from, and when? The answers to these questions will indicate everything including an ability to move forward, likely success or failure and would shape the entire business plan, if it ever gets that far. However you can relax about having to vote on remaining privately owned. If these questions remain unresolved there wonít be any choice in the matter.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Terryfenwickatemyhamster on March 11, 2019, 13:51:34 pm
I went. Thought it was a decent attempt at highlighting both the pitfalls and obvious benefits of community/fan ownership.

It is very early days. It would be harsh to tear apart any initiative. At this stage I am still firmly in the private owner camp. Just because, by their own admission, the clubs that have this in place were clear that is only a model for lower league football. In fact, the Chap from Exeter perpetually made the point that you have to forget about football and concentrate on running a club on a sustainable model. He even accepted that relegation might well be a consequence of it.

Well done to all who arranged it. Let's see where it goes.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: JollyCobbler on March 11, 2019, 14:25:01 pm
Can't believe that someone agreed to the release of the document.  Irrespective of the variance of what was actually discussed, that shows the behind the scenes youth football level of thinking to have produced and agreed that in the first place.  It is the only hard copy document that those who attended and those who didn't have to refer to when the meeting is closed. 
Someone can come on and defend or give their alternative view of the document claiming that it doesn't reflect the overall intention but unfortunately that was a real 'blighty'.

At the end of the day, the ability to raise and sustain the funding of the football club is still the main stopper regarding any 'fan ownership'.  Until that is resolved with a fail-safe proposal, this will continue to remain a pipedream.  I would love us to own our own club but until this happens, along with a reliable and credible management plan, I will vote to remain under the current or similar private ownership.

Honestly, I read through this thread and assumed the document posted was a spoof. It's unfortunate this is not the case.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: JollyCobbler on March 11, 2019, 14:27:06 pm
https://www.northamptonchron.co.uk/sport/football/supporters-trust-public-meeting-round-up-of-the-the-launch-of-project-proud-to-be-1-8842883

Can I suggest that the mods merge this thread with the other one about the meeting itself?

Where is the other one?


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Boring Bar Steward on March 11, 2019, 14:53:46 pm
For those slagging off KT and DB,
for those slagging off the Trust for their initiative,

What do you propose to improve the current situation?

What are you going to do to improve the current situation?


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Deepcut Cobbler on March 11, 2019, 15:00:09 pm
Where is the other one?

Already merged... ;)


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Deepcut Cobbler on March 11, 2019, 15:17:09 pm
For those slagging off KT and DB,
for those slagging off the Trust for their initiative,

What do you propose to improve the current situation?

What are you going to do to improve the current situation?

I am not slagging off either the current owners or the Trust. (Statement)
What am I going to do or propose? 
Nothing, until someone demonstrates a fail-safe funding plan (a bit more detail than the 'YES' response yesterday), in addition to a reliable, viable and credible management plan that encourages my support for any change. 
Personally, I am in not in a position to provide either funds or time to assist therefore I'll just keep turning up and supporting the team, whoever the owner(s) are.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: wazzacobbler on March 11, 2019, 16:01:41 pm
The way I look at all of this is that it has come about due to the lack of perceived work that's been done to complete the East Stand. While I am just as annoyed and frustrated by this lack of activity as the next person, I am yet to find an answer as to how this can be completed any sooner. As far as I know, the Council and the Club are in positive talks to get the stand finished and the Trust believe that they could get these talks completed quicker. I don't know how they believe they could do this because the only answer I have seen given to this question is that they would have a better relationship with the Council than the Club currently do. For me, that isn't an answer because it gives no details as to how they would have a better relationship and it also doesn't provide any answers on what the relationship with the Club and Council is currently.
My other issue is with the funding side of things. To simply say "yes" to the question of whether the Trust have funds to run the club isn't any better than KT saying "talks are ongoing" about the East Stand works. The Trust said yesterday that the club and Trust were too far apart when it came to the valuation of the club. To me, this means the Trust don't have enough funding at this moment in time to buy into the Club as they can't afford to meet KT and DB's valuation.

What I would like to see is the Trust build a better, more positive relationship with the Club. Help to initiate some of the community things they want to see happen. By doing that they will help to improve the club. From what I have heard, it seems that the Trust are too busy being negative about the football club to actually do anything positive.

I keep hearing the phrase "we see ourselves as critical friends of the club". Well right now, I doubt 'friends' is what either side think their in regards to their relationship status.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: barton cobbler on March 11, 2019, 16:39:56 pm
OK here's a question for everyone, what value would you put on NTFC if you were looking to buy it ?. We are talking about the football club not the land around Sixfields, I'll list the assets of NTFC ÖÖÖ..I'm struggling to think of ANY assets, don't own a half finished stadium, a few youth players that could be worth a few quid a few years down the line, but we'll probably release them anyhow and ÖÖÖ..that's about it. So it's a loss making business ,with no assets, so it shouldn't be difficult to meet the asking price, if the asking price is sensible.


PS. to use a very well used phrase at NTFC, the Trust cannot reveal their backers due to commercial sensitivity  ;)


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: CobblerForever on March 11, 2019, 16:55:43 pm
The Trust said yesterday that the club and Trust were too far apart when it came to the valuation of the club. To me, this means the Trust don't have enough funding at this moment in time to buy into the Club as they can't afford to meet KT and DB's valuation.

It means that the Trust don't agree with KT and DB's valuation. You only ever pay for anything if you value it as worth the offered price.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: CobblerForever on March 11, 2019, 17:00:08 pm
OK here's a question for everyone, what value would you put on NTFC if you were looking to buy it ?. We are talking about the football club not the land around Sixfields, I'll list the assets of NTFC ÖÖÖ..I'm struggling to think of ANY assets, don't own a half finished stadium, a few youth players that could be worth a few quid a few years down the line, but we'll probably release them anyhow and ÖÖÖ..that's about it. So it's a loss making business ,with no assets, so it shouldn't be difficult to meet the asking price, if the asking price is sensible.


PS. to use a very well used phrase at NTFC, the Trust cannot reveal their backers due to commercial sensitivity  ;)

Generally agree with this. Turnbull and Pierre might be worth decent sums.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: wazzacobbler on March 11, 2019, 17:16:00 pm
It means that the Trust don't agree with KT and DB's valuation. You only ever pay for anything if you value it as worth the offered price.

Then they don't have the funds to buy it. KT and DB do not have to sell. KT has stated himself that he will only sell to someone he believes has the best interests of the club at heart. I'm not saying the Trust don't, as as supporters first, they obviously do. That doesn't mean they have to sell for less than they see it as being worth though.

At the end of the day, if the Trust and the football club aren't able to negotiate a price that works for both parties, the sale won't happen. That goes for any other interested party also.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: BackOfTheNet on March 11, 2019, 17:21:15 pm
OK here's a question for everyone, what value would you put on NTFC if you were looking to buy it ?. We are talking about the football club not the land around Sixfields, I'll list the assets of NTFC ÖÖÖ..I'm struggling to think of ANY assets, don't own a half finished stadium, a few youth players that could be worth a few quid a few years down the line, but we'll probably release them anyhow and ÖÖÖ..that's about it. So it's a loss making business ,with no assets, so it shouldn't be difficult to meet the asking price, if the asking price is sensible.


Again, this is symptomatic of the naivety of a lot of the Trust comments. OK, OK, let's just pretend that Thomas and Bower DIDN'T rescue the club because they thought they could turn a profit from developing the associated land, how much do you think he'll sell us the club for on its own?

The reality is, it will be vastly more difficult, perhaps even impossible, for KT and co to develop the surrounding land without also being stakeholders in the town as the owners of our football club. So I'd say the value KT & DB should be expected to sell the club for is equivalent to the profit they think they could make on developing the surrounding land. No more, no less.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Boring Bar Steward on March 11, 2019, 17:22:54 pm
Generally agree with this. Turnbull and Pierre might be worth decent sums.
They might be worth decent sums BUT the monthly losses, we are currently running at, will eat that up VERY quickly!!!

I'll start a guessing game;

NTFC is worth £1 million MAXIMUM.

next?


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Another Pedj on March 11, 2019, 17:26:24 pm
OK here's a question for everyone, what value would you put on NTFC if you were looking to buy it ?. We are talking about the football club not the land around Sixfields, I'll list the assets of NTFC ÖÖÖ..I'm struggling to think of ANY assets, don't own a half finished stadium, a few youth players that could be worth a few quid a few years down the line, but we'll probably release them anyhow and ÖÖÖ..that's about it. So it's a loss making business ,with no assets, so it shouldn't be difficult to meet the asking price, if the asking price is sensible.


PS. to use a very well used phrase at NTFC, the Trust cannot reveal their backers due to commercial sensitivity  ;)

You are correct re the assets and I believe that you should get the club for say£1.BUT  you would have to assume all liability for current debts and unless you can match the current level of security offered you would almost certainly required to clear this down immediately. In addition the current shareholders will almost certainly be owed significant inter company loans. I am sure they will require these clearing on the sale of the football club or be secured by very significant PERSONAL guarantees.  

The last estimate was that these exceeded £2m.  

Your point re the commercial sensitivity of the trusts backers may well be correct but I will assure you that discussions and sensitive details would not be revealed until their credibility can be established. Any seller of a business would require full details and proof of available funds. meeting the sales price and all football club debts  before the sales memorandum was issued.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: In and out on March 11, 2019, 17:26:53 pm
After seeing the document on here, after thinking it was a spoof at first too, the club will always be worth more if the Trust don't get their hands on it. I'm afraid I will no longer give any more money to them.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: JollyCobbler on March 11, 2019, 17:28:33 pm
Already merged... ;)

I guess that explains why i couldn't find it. ;D


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: JollyCobbler on March 11, 2019, 17:33:52 pm
OK here's a question for everyone, what value would you put on NTFC if you were looking to buy it ?. We are talking about the football club not the land around Sixfields, I'll list the assets of NTFC ÖÖÖ..I'm struggling to think of ANY assets, don't own a half finished stadium, a few youth players that could be worth a few quid a few years down the line, but we'll probably release them anyhow and ÖÖÖ..that's about it. So it's a loss making business ,with no assets, so it shouldn't be difficult to meet the asking price, if the asking price is sensible.


PS. to use a very well used phrase at NTFC, the Trust cannot reveal their backers due to commercial sensitivity  ;)

Didn't KT pay Cardoza a token £1 to complete the deal, after NBC agreed to scrub the £10 million debt on proviso KT's group finished the East Stand? So, about £1 then, right? Plus any outstanding loans/debts that need covering.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: barton cobbler on March 11, 2019, 17:40:03 pm
Then they don't have the funds to buy it. KT and DB do not have to sell. KT has stated himself that he will only sell to someone he believes has the best interests of the club at heart. I'm not saying the Trust don't, as as supporters first, they obviously do. That doesn't mean they have to sell for less than they see it as being worth though.

At the end of the day, if the Trust and the football club aren't able to negotiate a price that works for both parties, the sale won't happen. That goes for any other interested party also.
To be honest Charles, I have enough money in my pocket to buy NTFC at the true value of what it's worth. KT has said that NTFC losses money but DB keeps funding it, why? There must be an end game, or is it that DB loves us so much that, I think, he's been to 2 home matches since he's been the owner ?


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: wazzacobbler on March 11, 2019, 17:43:54 pm
Didn't KT pay Cardoza a token £1 to complete the deal, after NBC agreed to scrub the £10 million debt on proviso KT's group finished the East Stand? So, about £1 then, right? Plus any outstanding loans/debts that need covering.

It's the cost of those debts that I imagine are too high for the Trust.
I imagine KT/DB will want back all the money they have spent on keeping the club in business. Don't forget that when they took over, the club owed HMRC and staff wages for a considerable amount of time. No doubt there were other debtors too. This was no fault of KT/DB remember.
So let's just say that that comes to £3M. With no assets, as Barton rightly points out (we don't own the stadium, a training ground etc), why would anyone buy the football club?
Oh, the potential of the land that the club sits on and has control of a lease over. KT/DB are in control of both of those leases. They want the land that is next to the ground to generate funds for the football club (as well as for themselves I expect), so I guess they would want a buyer to pay for that lease too.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: JollyCobbler on March 11, 2019, 18:08:37 pm
It's the cost of those debts that I imagine are too high for the Trust.
I imagine KT/DB will want back all the money they have spent on keeping the club in business. Don't forget that when they took over, the club owed HMRC and staff wages for a considerable amount of time. No doubt there were other debtors too. This was no fault of KT/DB remember.
So let's just say that that comes to £3M. With no assets, as Barton rightly points out (we don't own the stadium, a training ground etc), why would anyone buy the football club?
Oh, the potential of the land that the club sits on and has control of a lease over. KT/DB are in control of both of those leases. They want the land that is next to the ground to generate funds for the football club (as well as for themselves I expect), so I guess they would want a buyer to pay for that lease too.

Life doesn't work like that. If you choose to throw money at a failing business, then you have no guarantee of recovering your losses. The land behind the East was originally in the stadium footprint, so i don't see how KT could consider recovering that land as 'adding value to NTFC'. At the end of the day, they bought the club for a song - but the sale was completed with all sides agreeing certain stipulations. KT should already be quids in as he holds the CDNL leases. Putting any debts/loans aside, the club is worth no more than a scratch.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: wazzacobbler on March 11, 2019, 18:14:01 pm
As the owner of the business, which is no longer failing, KT can ask for whatever he wants. Whilst he has said he is looking for investment and therefore to sell the club, that doesn't mean he has to do it for a price he doesn't see as being fair. KT holds all the cards. Regardless of whether the Trust or any other interested party believes KT's valuation is too high, they either meet it or don't buy the club.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Another Pedj on March 11, 2019, 18:17:06 pm
Exactly right. If you want the club you have to meet the asking price. He does not need to sell.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: tcobb on March 11, 2019, 18:29:58 pm
Barton, if the Club is for sale including the land, then that's the price that will have to be paid. Are the Trust looking to buy the club without the land ?


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: JollyCobbler on March 11, 2019, 18:35:11 pm
Exactly right. If you want the club you have to meet the asking price. He does not need to sell.

Of course he doesn't. It all comes down to at what point KT/DB decide they can't/won't invest anymore. There will come a tipping point, but it doesn't appear we are anywhere close to it yet, and it seems even less likely that the Trust would be in any position to meet the sort of price being touted.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: barton cobbler on March 11, 2019, 18:50:58 pm
Of course he doesn't. It all comes down to at what point KT/DB decide they can't/won't invest anymore. There will come a tipping point, but it doesn't appear we are anywhere close to it yet, and it seems even less likely that the Trust would be in any position to meet the sort of price being touted.

I could put my house up for sale for £1M, but if is not worth £1m no one is going to buy it. KT says he and DB are funding NTFC, so how long will this continue? At the point they decide to stop funding the club they will have to sell at a realistic price


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: clarkeysntfc on March 11, 2019, 18:51:40 pm
To be honest Charles, I have enough money in my pocket to buy NTFC at the true value of what it's worth. KT has said that NTFC losses money but DB keeps funding it, why? There must be an end game, or is it that DB loves us so much that, I think, he's been to 2 home matches since he's been the owner ?

Absolute pie in the sky stuff from a trust board member, with a little snipe at the end. I thought you were not leading a hostile take over?


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: wazzacobbler on March 11, 2019, 18:58:46 pm
To be honest Charles, I have enough money in my pocket to buy NTFC at the true value of what it's worth. KT has said that NTFC losses money but DB keeps funding it, why? There must be an end game, or is it that DB loves us so much that, I think, he's been to 2 home matches since he's been the owner ?

Sorry Roger, only just seen this reply from you.
I don't know the answer to your question about DB. It's something I would have to ask him but as you know, I haven't met him.
I suspect there must be an end game but while he is happy to fund the club that end game is not in sight. I presume, the end game is to complete the stand. That's the impression I got when speaking to KT. They said they would do it and they want to get it done.
I have no reason to distrust Kelvin.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Another Pedj on March 11, 2019, 19:01:20 pm
I could put my house up for sale for £1M, but if is not worth £1m no one is going to buy it. KT says he and DB are funding NTFC, so how long will this continue? At the point they decide to stop funding the club they will have to sell at a realistic price

Even then it will go to the highest bidder.  If you want the club buy it. Beds has told you how to make it pay in only a couple of years.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: barton cobbler on March 11, 2019, 19:03:18 pm
Absolute pie in the sky stuff from a trust board member, with a little snipe at the end. I thought you were not leading a hostile take over?
What is pie in the sky then, serious question?


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: clarkeysntfc on March 11, 2019, 19:09:45 pm
What is pie in the sky then, serious question?

The concept that your organisation will get hold of the club without a properly costed business plan, and hard evidence of proof of funds to a) purchase the business and b) support it as a going concern.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: barton cobbler on March 11, 2019, 19:18:07 pm
The concept that your organisation will get hold of the club without a properly costed business plan, and hard evidence of proof of funds to a) purchase the business and b) support it as a going concern.

Could you please point out where the Trust have said ANY of the above ? What I said in my post, and it's my post NOT the Trust's, is that the club is worth next to nothing as a business, as it losses money and has zero assets.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Terryfenwickatemyhamster on March 11, 2019, 19:30:53 pm
This going round in circles..

Letís face it. KT views the club and the land as one, as he and his backers have a an interest in either one of them or both. Some people seem to think he is solely interested in the land. Some think both. Itís irrelevant. It doesnít matter a jot.

They own it. They are entitled to sell it how they want. If you can meet that sum, they will sell it. But be sure of one thing. If they should throw in the towel and decide to sell it for a quid. I wouldnít be too sure the Trust would be the preferred buyer.



Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: BackOfTheNet on March 11, 2019, 19:55:34 pm
This going round in circles..

Letís face it. KT views the club and the land as one, as he and his backers have a an interest in either one of them or both. Some people seem to think he is solely interested in the land. Some think both. Itís irrelevant. It doesnít matter a jot.

They own it. They are entitled to sell it how they want. If you can meet that sum, they will sell it. But be sure of one thing. If they should throw in the towel and decide to sell it for a quid. I wouldnít be too sure the Trust would be the preferred buyer.



Amen to that.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: JollyCobbler on March 11, 2019, 20:19:33 pm
I could put my house up for sale for £1M, but if is not worth £1m no one is going to buy it. KT says he and DB are funding NTFC, so how long will this continue? At the point they decide to stop funding the club they will have to sell at a realistic price

Exactly.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: DrillingCobbler on March 11, 2019, 20:40:13 pm
The document that was circulated yesterday was not seen by the Trust Board. As a trust board member, the first I knew of it was when I went on to twitter yesterday evening.

From my prospective, its a huge embarrassment. I actually quite like a formation which includes wing backs   ;)

In all seriousness though; it shouldn't have been distributed with the Trusts name on it and I hope that the person responsible for putting it together confirms that very soon.




Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: In and out on March 11, 2019, 20:59:03 pm
If this was released by anyone from the Trust then I'm afraid the Trust has a large amount of issues within itself to sort out before it can get the backing of the majority of the fanbase.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: wazzacobbler on March 11, 2019, 21:10:44 pm
The document that was circulated yesterday was not seen by the Trust Board. As a trust board member, the first I knew of it was when I went on to twitter yesterday evening.

From my prospective, its a huge embarrassment. I actually quite like a formation which includes wing backs   ;)

In all seriousness though; it shouldn't have been distributed with the Trusts name on it and I hope that the person responsible for putting it together confirms that very soon.




Please tell me you're joking! The Trust Twitter page puts out a tweet stating that Project:Proud To Be is available to read for all attendees of the meeting, is handed out to everyone who attends the meeting, defends the document on Twitter today after the podcast and Jeremy Casey post it online and now you say the document was not a Trust document.

Please, please tell me you're messing around


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: BackOfTheNet on March 11, 2019, 21:10:58 pm
The document that was circulated yesterday was not seen by the Trust Board. As a trust board member, the first I knew of it was when I went on to twitter yesterday evening.

From my prospective, its a huge embarrassment. I actually quite like a formation which includes wing backs   ;)

In all seriousness though; it shouldn't have been distributed with the Trusts name on it and I hope that the person responsible for putting it together confirms that very soon.




I'm not disputing what you say there Drilling, but bloody hell, how on earth could the Trust board allow that to happen? There were photos of piles of the document posted on Twitter to build interest in the meeting. Didn't anyone from the Trust board think, even for a moment, "I wonder what's being distributed with our name on it?" ahead of the self-proclaimed most important meeting since the Exeter Rooms?!


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: DrillingCobbler on March 11, 2019, 21:20:11 pm
I'm not disputing what you say there Drilling, but bloody hell, how on earth could the Trust board allow that to happen? There were photos of piles of the document posted on Twitter to build interest in the meeting. Didn't anyone from the Trust board think, even for a moment, "I wonder what's being distributed with our name on it?" ahead of the self-proclaimed most important meeting since the Exeter Rooms?!

Im going to avoid answering any questions this evening on the matter mate. My previous comment was to distant myself from it because there is absolutely zero chance I would have signed that off.



Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: In and out on March 11, 2019, 21:25:05 pm
Then I would question other motives in the room.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Irchy cob on March 11, 2019, 21:36:50 pm
Christ, what a pigs ear.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: ntfclad on March 11, 2019, 21:54:04 pm
Iíd be very surprised if anyone other than Meccano wrote that document.

Qualities needed in a future Cobblers player: visionary and gentleman. A couple of good points lost in a **** barrel load of s***e.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Irchy cob on March 11, 2019, 22:03:41 pm
Iíd be very surprised if anyone other than Meccano wrote that document.

Qualities needed in a future Cobblers player: visionary and gentleman. A couple of good points lost in a **** barrel load of s***e.

I think itís very safe to assume that it was meccano given that he has posted chunks of it on here over the last few months whilst repeatedly saying ďwe need to keep an open mindĒ.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: cj on March 11, 2019, 22:05:56 pm
Where is he now then?... Is he a Trust member?


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: wazzacobbler on March 11, 2019, 22:22:27 pm
Where is he now then?... Is he a Trust member?

I believe he is a member, yes. I don't think he is on the Board.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Another Pedj on March 11, 2019, 22:27:45 pm
The board must have something to do with it. I am sure they tweeted about a link to Norwich to "clear something up" they didn't deny they were responsible them.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Grove on March 11, 2019, 22:36:35 pm
Board produce document
document roundly ridiculed
Board deny involvement of ridiculed document
 ;D
So none of the board thought "oh , whats that pile of documents and what does it contain"
Sorry trust , massive own goal


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Tabasco Kid on March 11, 2019, 22:43:35 pm
Serious question to any Trust Board person on here,
How much did you know about the contents of that leaflet, did Meccano seek your approval about its contents, and if he is a non board member, why was he allowed to distribute it prior to the meeting?


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: tcobb on March 11, 2019, 22:56:55 pm
If that leaflet was approved by the Trust, what on earth were they thinking?
If that leaflet was not approved by the Trust, why did they let it be distributed at their meeting ?
Either way the shambles that has come out of it, hardly bodes well for a group who want to run a professional Football Club.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Terryfenwickatemyhamster on March 11, 2019, 23:01:41 pm
Abraham Anstruther must be spinning in his grave...  ;D



Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Tabasco Kid on March 11, 2019, 23:15:46 pm
Abraham Anstruther must be spinning in his grave...  ;D
How much did you know about the contents of that leaflet, Mr B?




Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Terryfenwickatemyhamster on March 11, 2019, 23:53:44 pm
How much did you know about the contents of that leaflet, Mr B?




Just enjoyed reading it.. Loved WALOC..


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: MCHammer on March 12, 2019, 00:44:46 am
Could people really not see this coming?  I'd have been more shocked if "Project Proud To Be" had been any good.  What an arrogant, ill-informed, misjudged piece of rubbish.  The few good points it contained are simply drowned by the sea of "know-it-all" claptrap.  I'm sorry but it's soooo bad it's too good not to ridicule.  Someone has had the audacity to read a few online articles and believes they know better than professionals who have devoted their careers to the various subjects.  It's like someone who plays Football Manager and applies for the England job.

What was Meccano's quote the other month.  Something like the most in depth study of the club in it's history.  Identifying macro level issues.  Making it up as they go along.  What people at the club got interviewed to find out what they do?  How many coaches did you speak to?  What knowledge of the current practices do you have and how did you obtain that information?

In fact here's some easy ones for anyone involved to answer.  Who wrote it?  Who else contributed?  Provide an appendix listing your source matter and finally state what experience those involved in the writing of it bring.

As it's a living breathing document let's add some more sections.

GROUND IMPROVEMENTS

Problem - Not enough people behind the bar.....Solution - get more people behind the bar
Problem - Burgers are too expensive.....Solution - Sell cheaper burgers
Problem - The East Stand isn't finished.....Solution - Finish the East Stand

In fact this document has proven life changing for me on a personal level.  This morning I ran out of toothpaste.  Left me stumped what to do.....then I thought what would Project Proud To Be suggest?  Yep, buy more toothpaste!  It's that simple.  Late for work....leave earlier.  Hungry...eat something.  Thirsty....have a drink.  Thank you Project Proud To Be.

So the Trust board didn't see this.  YEAH RIGHT!!!  Andy Roberts spoke in interviews about some of the topics it contained.  People can back track all they like.  Everyone knew this was part of the event and if you didn't you are either lying or incompetent.

I note none of the usual suspects have appeared yet to even attempt to offer a defence.  Open and Honest remember the mantra.

So apart from that disaster let's talk community/fan ownership.  On the plus side fabulous to get an Exeter perspective represented warts and all.  No better experience and example of the challenges we would face.

Here are the problems though.  We've come up with a hybrid model.  Ask yourself why?  It's obvious, fan ownership alone simply cannot afford to buy and finance the club.  So let's get local business involved.

Ask yourself this though.  What's in it for them?  Does being local make a business man suitable to put our Trust in?  Who decides whether that businessman is fit and proper and when do the membership get consulted.  Bear in mind they admitted they approached the club already with a backer.  Who was that backer and what was their motivation?  Convenient to claim commercial sensitivities to avoid answering tough/any questions.  The irony of being secretive and not letting you the members share this information.  This from people that in the next sentence slaughter the current ownership for not disclosing development information.

Next the idea that somehow a community ownership would be better placed to get a development moving.  Well for starters you don't have the immediate finance and secondly you will face all the same council planning delays everyone else does.  Explain to me what you skills and expertise you possess that everyone else is missing.

It's the lunatics taking over the asylum.  Community ownership is a sure fire way of guaranteeing we stand still AT BEST and it costs you personally more money just to do so.  But you will all be happier apparently as we get to have a say....except you don't.....the lunatics in charge will do and share what they deem fit.

Finally the club for sale price.  I assume if the Trust got the club for a quid they will sell it for a quid when the inevitable time comes to seek the investment required to progress to the next level?


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Boring Bar Steward on March 12, 2019, 07:13:35 am
Fan ownership is a route to explore BUT personally I believe the best route is to get a group of investors together (hopefully with local interest) to raise the kind of money to buy the club AND more importantly to invest and run the club in the future!

The Trust could be involved, as a vehicle to represent fans who wish to invest to a smaller extent, but I would be surprised if this would involve more than 10 to 20% of the money required now and in the future.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: BackOfTheNet on March 12, 2019, 07:51:48 am
Fan ownership is a route to explore BUT personally I believe the best route is to get a group of investors together (hopefully with local interest) to raise the kind of money to buy the club AND more importantly to invest and run the club in the future!

The Trust could be involved, as a vehicle to represent fans who wish to invest to a smaller extent, but I would be surprised if this would involve more than 10 to 20% of the money required now and in the future.

Yeah, but after this shambles, if we were taking that approach who'd be prepared to contribute any money in the form of smaller investments if it meant having to trust the Trust (no pun intended) on what they were going to do with it? On current form they'd go out to buy a football club and come back with some magic beans!

Great post, MCHammer, by the way.  ;D


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Boring Bar Steward on March 12, 2019, 08:03:17 am
As has been stated previously, the Trust would appoint somebody with the relevant experience to oversee the group of smaller investors (ie fans).


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Vintage Cobbler on March 12, 2019, 08:17:33 am
For those who were not at the meeting and are interested in a balanced report of Sundayís meeting I suggest that you read the report on the Trustís FaceBook page.

I was there as a Trust member. I thought it was very well hosted by Andy Roberts & Kevin Simons on behalf of the Trust and was a very interesting afternoon.  Time well spent.  A lot of hard work goes into arranging an event like this.  Whether you are for or against community ownership have the courtesy to respect the effort and commitment of those involved. 

Far too many of you making comments were not there and one who was mouthing off about him having better things to do on a Sunday afternoon like mending his rabbit hutch rushed to his keyboard later that day anxiously wanting a report.  Pathetic.

Some of the comments on here about Tom Reed are absolutely objectionable including those made by Drilling who as a Trust director should learn to act like one and in a more disciplined & professional manner.  I guess from his tweet on Saturday night that he was too busy on his settee to read any paperwork.  Tom Reed as we all know is very much an advocate of community ownership and the return of safe terracing.  Prior to Sundayís meeting he took the time and trouble to visit Exeter and see first hand what has been achieved by this 100% fan owned club.  Many could learn more from him about this and how it works before taking random pot shots at him from the safe distance of their keyboards.

Getting back to the main subject as Hamster has commented the lead speaker from Exeter did say that 100% supporter ownership had a ceiling in his view pointing out that crazy money in being spent in the Championship by reckless owners who are engaged in a **** to reach the riches of the Premier League. He did say that Exeter has a policy of being debt free and so although there may be lean years on the pitch the club will not be put at financial risk by incurring debt it cannot repay.  It was also clear that the 100% model requires a lot of effort and commitment on the part of volunteer fans. 

There was no speaker from a club with a hybrid model. Roy Crutchley of Phipps Brewery said that he thought that there were plenty of businesses in Northampton who would be willing to invest in a venture involving community ownership.  This concept to my mind now needs to be worked on by the Trust directors. I think it holds the best prospects for us.



Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Deepcut Cobbler on March 12, 2019, 08:37:59 am
For those who were not at the meeting and are interested in a balanced report of Sundayís meeting I suggest that you read the report on the Trustís FaceBook page.


Can it be posted on the Trusts Website with a link on here for those not on Facebook?


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: BackOfTheNet on March 12, 2019, 09:02:09 am

Far too many of you making comments were not there and one who was mouthing off about him having better things to do on a Sunday afternoon like mending his rabbit hutch rushed to his keyboard later that day anxiously wanting a report.  Pathetic.


That was me!  That was me!

To be clear, I would consider any activity more important than attending this meeting. My non-attendance was rather the point. It had the potential to be dangerous and damaging to our football club and the fewer people that showed an interest the better. That's why I pointedly used the rabbit hutch repair as something trivial that I found more important (plus that's really what I was doing!).

I think you may have misread the tone in my eagerness for a meeting report! I did later say that I'd be interested in hearing how it panned out, but I was thinking more about how many were there, did the club send representation etc.

As for your defence of Tom/MeccanoStand- yes, he's keen and done some research. Good for him. He's also come up with a right load of nonsense on the back of it. A colleague of mine watches lots of medical documentaries as says she'd love to do an operation on someone. Her enthusiasm doesn't replace the medical training that would make her capable of doing one though!


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: JollyCobbler on March 12, 2019, 09:20:04 am
Could people really not see this coming?  I'd have been more shocked if "Project Proud To Be" had been any good.  What an arrogant, ill-informed, misjudged piece of rubbish.  The few good points it contained are simply drowned by the sea of "know-it-all" claptrap.  I'm sorry but it's soooo bad it's too good not to ridicule.  Someone has had the audacity to read a few online articles and believes they know better than professionals who have devoted their careers to the various subjects.  It's like someone who plays Football Manager and applies for the England job.

What was Meccano's quote the other month.  Something like the most in depth study of the club in it's history.  Identifying macro level issues.  Making it up as they go along.  What people at the club got interviewed to find out what they do?  How many coaches did you speak to?  What knowledge of the current practices do you have and how did you obtain that information?

In fact here's some easy ones for anyone involved to answer.  Who wrote it?  Who else contributed?  Provide an appendix listing your source matter and finally state what experience those involved in the writing of it bring.

As it's a living breathing document let's add some more sections.

GROUND IMPROVEMENTS

Problem - Not enough people behind the bar.....Solution - get more people behind the bar
Problem - Burgers are too expensive.....Solution - Sell cheaper burgers
Problem - The East Stand isn't finished.....Solution - Finish the East Stand

In fact this document has proven life changing for me on a personal level.  This morning I ran out of toothpaste.  Left me stumped what to do.....then I thought what would Project Proud To Be suggest?  Yep, buy more toothpaste!  It's that simple.  Late for work....leave earlier.  Hungry...eat something.  Thirsty....have a drink.  Thank you Project Proud To Be.

So the Trust board didn't see this.  YEAH RIGHT!!!  Andy Roberts spoke in interviews about some of the topics it contained.  People can back track all they like.  Everyone knew this was part of the event and if you didn't you are either lying or incompetent.

I note none of the usual suspects have appeared yet to even attempt to offer a defence.  Open and Honest remember the mantra.

So apart from that disaster let's talk community/fan ownership.  On the plus side fabulous to get an Exeter perspective represented warts and all.  No better experience and example of the challenges we would face.

Here are the problems though.  We've come up with a hybrid model.  Ask yourself why?  It's obvious, fan ownership alone simply cannot afford to buy and finance the club.  So let's get local business involved.

Ask yourself this though.  What's in it for them?  Does being local make a business man suitable to put our Trust in?  Who decides whether that businessman is fit and proper and when do the membership get consulted.  Bear in mind they admitted they approached the club already with a backer.  Who was that backer and what was their motivation?  Convenient to claim commercial sensitivities to avoid answering tough/any questions.  The irony of being secretive and not letting you the members share this information.  This from people that in the next sentence slaughter the current ownership for not disclosing development information.

Next the idea that somehow a community ownership would be better placed to get a development moving.  Well for starters you don't have the immediate finance and secondly you will face all the same council planning delays everyone else does.  Explain to me what you skills and expertise you possess that everyone else is missing.

It's the lunatics taking over the asylum.  Community ownership is a sure fire way of guaranteeing we stand still AT BEST and it costs you personally more money just to do so.  But you will all be happier apparently as we get to have a say....except you don't.....the lunatics in charge will do and share what they deem fit.

Finally the club for sale price.  I assume if the Trust got the club for a quid they will sell it for a quid when the inevitable time comes to seek the investment required to progress to the next level?

Good post. Difficult to argue with much of that.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Irchy cob on March 12, 2019, 09:29:45 am
Good post by MC but Vintage has already challenged it - itís a case of this is my truth tell me yours.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: cj on March 12, 2019, 10:11:56 am
Can it be posted on the Trusts Website with a link on here for those not on Facebook?
Absolutely where it should be. Couldn't agree more.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: guest170 on March 12, 2019, 10:42:05 am
The document that was circulated yesterday was not seen by the Trust Board. As a trust board member, the first I knew of it was when I went on to twitter yesterday evening.

From my prospective, its a huge embarrassment. I actually quite like a formation which includes wing backs   ;)

In all seriousness though; it shouldn't have been distributed with the Trusts name on it and I hope that the person responsible for putting it together confirms that very soon.

I dont mean this to sound like an attack on you but the Trust are asking us to 'keep an open mind' with regards to Trust / Fan ownership and at the very first meeting, the document that was used to promote the meeting on Twitter has not been seen / signed off by the board!! Yes in the grand scheme this is fairly trivial but its an embarrassing start when you are talking about running an entire football club and yet you dont know what is being presented to 200 people at the launch. I also saw comments from the Trust about its not a proposal but a 'placeholder'. WTF is a placeholder?!


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: EssTeeFree on March 12, 2019, 11:26:53 am
I'm very open minded about fan ownership and understand that there are various models we could follow. However the last couple of pages of this thread have really brought all my concerns to the fore.

Whatever the truth about the document, the whole affair is a huge embarrassment. It simply points to the fact that the Trust and it's board are not all singing from the same hymn sheer, which should be the bare minimum.

I also find it a little concerning that, in the report from the meeting it states that a proposal has already been taken to the club, which includes the backing of a mystery investor. Surely nothing should ever have got that far without it being put to the fans first?

Maybe I am extremely naÔve but I believe the only way this works is if the trust are completely transparent with the fan base. If all we are going to do is swap one group of people who can decide what the fan base is worthy of knowing for another then what do we really gain? The fact that one group of people are fans doesn't make a huge difference, I only have to spend 5 minutes on here to know that I have different opinions on the way things are done to many other fans.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: BedsCobb on March 12, 2019, 11:34:56 am
I was at the trust meeting which I found informative and interested listening to how other clubs ventured into fan/ community ownership.

I notice every time the pros and cons of 'going it alone' is raised, the argument of the need for billionaire backers is always used as a scaremongering tactic to avoid having any change from the comfort of our usual mid to low division four existence.
Maybe  some of our support base fear the big step up in class playing league 1 football, with  too many big clubs with skilful players who punish the slightest mistakes? Large noisey followings?   Or playing several local rivals in all ticket, capacity crowds?
Of course they don't, they want all the above and a lot more!
Does playing in and maintaining league 1 status really need a multi millionaire backer? No of course not, it just needs some boxes built and an increase on capacity to maximise on the ticket sales for the bigger games and make the football experience at Sixfields a lot more enjoyable.

I was asked at the meeting by someone who was dead against fan ownership, where would I be happy to see our club he asked , the answer was simple, I want to see a challenging established league 1 club that has enough infrastructure to be sustainable and maximise our earning potential at that level.
Billionaires not required, but when wealthy local benefactors see they are not required as cash cows, they'll be more than happy to get on board and help .

Well done to all those trust folk in getting this moving.



Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Deepcut Cobbler on March 12, 2019, 13:40:12 pm

Maybe I am extremely naive but I believe the only way this works is if the trust are completely transparent with the fan base.


If Drilling is correct, they should start by being transparent with their own Board members?


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Deepcut Cobbler on March 12, 2019, 13:42:18 pm

I want to see a challenging established league 1 club that has enough infrastructure to be sustainable and maximise our earning potential at that level.


Agreed, the challenge is how we get to that stage...


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: BedsCobb on March 12, 2019, 14:27:56 pm
Agreed, the challenge is how we get to that stage...
By just doing it!
It doesn't have to happen over night,  if its done in 3 stages of well managed projects, that is hugely promoted throughout the support base, town in general, county and buisness community, it will very soon gather momentum.
Several excellent methods of raising funds have been well documented, that doesn't require individuals to shovel vast sums at it.
Nothing can ever happen while the present incumbents finish their secretive dealings with the council.

'The old club mantra 'We are frustrated with the lack of our progress and our inability to tell the town of Northampton what it is we plan to do'  has at long last worn very thin, we can only hope they move on to their next 'project ' very soon.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Terryfenwickatemyhamster on March 12, 2019, 15:46:29 pm
I was at the trust meeting which I found informative and interested listening to how other clubs ventured into fan/ community ownership.

I notice every time the pros and cons of 'going it alone' is raised, the argument of the need for billionaire backers is always used as a scaremongering tactic to avoid having any change from the comfort of our usual mid to low division four existence.



I find it strange that having listened to you banging on about championship football and how easy this would be to achieve with the good folk of Northants behind the club. That you have now scaled down your ambition to supporting a well led league one club  ;D  It would seem that regardless of all of the ridicule that has pursued your hair brained schemes around many avenues of social media, you remained oblivious to good old common sense. Yet one dose of reality on a Sunday afternoon in a Northampton hotel has brought you down to earth with a bump.

To the casual onlooker, it could well appear that you have tried to sell anything other than KT to all and sundry. But having been outed by some who have been there, done it, and got the T Shirt, you are now a convert to sleepy town football. When you hear clubs the size of Portsmouth stating the limitations of hybrid or fan owned models, it finally sinks in doesn't it?. What a shame it took so long, when I and many others were trying to tell you that we are not in KT's pocket. That we actually did, and demonstrably still do have, a decent appraisal of the facts. 

Posts going back some time have spoke about fan ownership. Predominantly it's clear and present limitations. If under YOUR idyllic fan ownership model, we found ourselves following the Exeter model, you and your cronies would be the first raise your pitchforks at the mere whiff of relegation, brought about under the banner of sustainability. I can just hear your reaction to a model that will do it's best to achieve mid table L1 football. But every now and then in order to balance the books relegation is inevitable.

I believe that KT is far from the dream owner. I absolutely agree that he has a vested interest in the land. But I am very confident that you and a few others would accept anything except him. He's ignored you. And you and a few others don't like being ignored.

I could see the blood boiling and the gritted teeth of a few die hard  KT haters, when an employee of NTFC had the gall to stand up and say that she and her colleagues really like their boss. That they are happy. Something that I have stated repeatedly. I could see the haters wincing. 

You know as well as I do, that Sundays meeting was a well meant exploratory process aimed a gauging the fans perspective. But like it or not, it threw up a lot more questions than answers. It was very worth while. But equally it exposed a significant level of naivety within the Trust and the support. It only managed to attract around 2% of the fan base. And there was a clear 50/50 split in the room. So Trust aside, it managed to impact on around 80 supporters, sufficiently enough to give it a chance. 

Have you you scaled down your plans for the stadium, now you've accepted comfortable league one football?  ;D ;D Because I haven't. I still live in hope that one day we will attract some billionaire with a few quid to squander on the club I love. I know that sounds mad. I know it probably won't happen. But it is nowhere near as daft as some of the claptrap spouted by some on here.



Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Terryfenwickatemyhamster on March 12, 2019, 16:01:03 pm
I find it strange that having listened to you banging on about championship football and how easy this would be to achieve with the good folk of Northants behind the club. That you have now scaled down your ambition to supporting a well led league one club  ;D  It would seem that regardless of all of the ridicule that has pursued your hair brained schemes around many avenues of social media, you remained oblivious to good old common sense. Yet one dose of reality on a Sunday afternoon in a Northampton hotel has brought you down to earth with a bump.

To the casual onlooker, it could well appear that you have tried to sell anything other than KT to all and sundry. But having been outed by some who have been there, done it, and got the T Shirt, you are now a convert to sleepy town football. When you hear clubs the size of Portsmouth stating the limitations of hybrid or fan owned models, it finally sinks in doesn't it?. What a shame it took so long, when I and many others were trying to tell you that we are not in KT's pocket. That we actually did, and demonstrably still do have, a decent appraisal of the facts. 

Posts going back some time have spoke about fan ownership. Predominantly it's clear and present limitations. If under YOUR idyllic fan ownership model, we found ourselves following the Exeter model, you and your cronies would be the first raise your pitchforks at the mere whiff of relegation, brought about under the banner of sustainability. I can just hear your reaction to a model that will do it's best to achieve mid table L1 football. But every now and then in order to balance the books relegation is inevitable.

I believe that KT is far from the dream owner. I absolutely agree that he has a vested interest in the land. But I am very confident that you and a few others would accept anything except him. He's ignored you. And you and a few others don't like being ignored.

I could see the blood boiling and the gritted teeth of a few die hard  KT haters, when an employee of NTFC had the gall to stand up and say that she and her colleagues really like their boss. That they are happy. Something that I have stated repeatedly. I could see the haters wincing. 

You know as well as I do, that Sundays meeting was a well meant exploratory process aimed a gauging the fans perspective. But like it or not, it threw up a lot more questions than answers. It was very worth while. But equally it exposed a significant level of naivety within the Trust and the support. It only managed to attract around 2% of the fan base. And there was a clear 50/50 split in the room. So Trust aside, it managed to impact on around 80 supporters, sufficiently enough to even listen about it. 

Have you you scaled down your plans for the stadium, now you've accepted comfortable league one football?  ;D ;D Because I haven't. I still live in hope that one day we will attract some billionaire with a few quid to squander on the club I love. I know that sounds mad. I know it probably won't happen. But it is nowhere near as daft as some of the claptrap spouted by some on here.




Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: BedsCobb on March 12, 2019, 16:39:49 pm
I find it strange that having listened to you banging on about championship football and how easy this would be to achieve with the good folk of Northants behind the club. That you have now scaled down your ambition to supporting a well led league one club  ;D  It would seem that regardless of all of the ridicule that has pursued your hair brained schemes around many avenues of social media, you remained oblivious to good old common sense. Yet one dose of reality on a Sunday afternoon in a Northampton hotel has brought you down to earth with a bump.

To the casual onlooker, it could well appear that you have tried to sell anything other than KT to all and sundry. But having been outed by some who have been there, done it, and got the T Shirt, you are now a convert to sleepy town football. When you hear clubs the size of Portsmouth stating the limitations of hybrid or fan owned models, it finally sinks in doesn't it?. What a shame it took so long, when I and many others were trying to tell you that we are not in KT's pocket. That we actually did, and demonstrably still do have, a decent appraisal of the facts. 

Posts going back some time have spoke about fan ownership. Predominantly it's clear and present limitations. If under YOUR idyllic fan ownership model, we found ourselves following the Exeter model, you and your cronies would be the first raise your pitchforks at the mere whiff of relegation, brought about under the banner of sustainability. I can just hear your reaction to a model that will do it's best to achieve mid table L1 football. But every now and then in order to balance the books relegation is inevitable.

I believe that KT is far from the dream owner. I absolutely agree that he has a vested interest in the land. But I am very confident that you and a few others would accept anything except him. He's ignored you. And you and a few others don't like being ignored.

I could see the blood boiling and the gritted teeth of a few die hard  KT haters, when an employee of NTFC had the gall to stand up and say that she and her colleagues really like their boss. That they are happy. Something that I have stated repeatedly. I could see the haters wincing. 

You know as well as I do, that Sundays meeting was a well meant exploratory process aimed a gauging the fans perspective. But like it or not, it threw up a lot more questions than answers. It was very worth while. But equally it exposed a significant level of naivety within the Trust and the support. It only managed to attract around 2% of the fan base. And there was a clear 50/50 split in the room. So Trust aside, it managed to impact on around 80 supporters, sufficiently enough to give it a chance. 

Have you you scaled down your plans for the stadium, now you've accepted comfortable league one football?  ;D ;D Because I haven't. I still live in hope that one day we will attract some billionaire with a few quid to squander on the club I love. I know that sounds mad. I know it probably won't happen. But it is nowhere near as daft as some of the claptrap spouted by some on here.


Just had time to read the first 2 paragraphs as I hope to make the match from up London, 
Firstly my advocating us being a challenging league 1 club would suggest we are fighting for a top 6 place and not the other meaning of being difficult and annoying when dealing with other clubs😂😂

My crazy arsed schemes as to escape the suffocating   clutches of Thomas and co have yet to be be disproved as such and until its not acting on in favour of something better, it stands😉
Whiting took up on one of my past  ideas of selling ground naming rights to a large national company in order to fit the boces in the east, that was derided also, but fast forward a year and its welcome to the pmt stadium but without the frigging boxes😂😂.
Will read the rest later😚


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Terryfenwickatemyhamster on March 12, 2019, 17:06:18 pm

Will read the rest later😚

You better  ;D

I am at great pains to say that I think it is a workable option. But it will seem very much like a continuation of the last goodness knows how many years.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: clarkeysntfc on March 12, 2019, 17:20:32 pm
Can someone point me towards a fan owned club which has achieved a top 6 finish in league 1?


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: wazzacobbler on March 12, 2019, 17:48:36 pm
One of the things I've been told was that one of the panel members from Exeter said that the most important thing for them is sustainability above all else. If that means a relegation out of the football league then so be it.

How many of our fanbase would be happy with that happening to us?


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: barton cobbler on March 12, 2019, 17:58:18 pm
Can someone point me towards a fan owned club which has achieved a top 6 finish in league 1?
Something that Northampton Town have achieved ONCE in the last FIFTY SIX years of private ownership !


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: BedsCobb on March 12, 2019, 18:17:56 pm
Can someone point me towards a fan owned club which has achieved a top 6 finish in league 1?
can some point me to a fan owned club thats not progressed in 50 years?
#timeforchange :-*


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: wazzacobbler on March 12, 2019, 18:19:31 pm
can some point me to a fan owned club thats not progressed in 50 years?
#timeforchange :-*

Exeter....

I'm only joking  ;D


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: BedsCobb on March 12, 2019, 18:24:27 pm
One of the things I've been told was that one of the panel members from Exeter said that the most important thing for them is sustainability above all else. If that means a relegation out of the football league then so be it.

How many of our fanbase would be happy with that happening to us?
Both Cardoza and now Thomas sailed us close to the drop zone, so it's not really an option is it😂
If it was down to the towns folk to avoid the drop they would move heaven and earth, cardoza and Thomas not so.
#givesusourclubback


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: EssTeeFree on March 12, 2019, 18:34:12 pm
Something that Northampton Town have achieved ONCE in the last FIFTY SIX years of private ownership !

So what youíre saying is Private Ownership 1-0 Fan Ownership  :P



Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: guest170 on March 12, 2019, 18:36:10 pm
can some point me to a fan owned club thats not progressed in 50 years?
#timeforchange :-*
Rushden and Diamonds


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: BedsCobb on March 12, 2019, 18:44:16 pm
Rushden and Diamonds

two little village's,  had they reinvented themselves as Northants united, inviting our counties 700,000 to adopt them as their new club or alternative destination,  Cardoza and Thomas would be left in the slip stream.
Let's not assume all 'buisness men' are on the ball and are  'football men' We know their not🤣🤣


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: guest170 on March 12, 2019, 18:52:26 pm
two little village's,  had they reinvented themselves as Northants united, inviting our counties 700,000 to adopt them as their new club or alternative destination,  Cardoza and Thomas would be left in the slip stream.
Let's not assume all 'buisness men' are on the ball and are  'football men' We know their not🤣🤣
Ok, so you meant to provide an example that suits your agenda. Sorry my mistake


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: wazzacobbler on March 12, 2019, 19:32:49 pm
I've been a Cobblers supporter for almost 50 years and the posts on here over the last few days make me so angry I almost want to give up....what on earth makes people so self righteous to be so aggressive towards other people's opinions?

The Trust deserve huge credit for organising a meeting with relevant speakers who set out a fascinating possible future...there is some confusion about the status of the separate report placed on people's chairs but at least someone cares enough to make the effort...

And how do people on here respond? Largely with sneers,  jeers and closed minds....this is the attitude that drove out local players for decades.....

The next accounts for the club are due out soon and I doubt enormously that they will show that the club makes a profit so it needs benefactors like it's current owners...so they and the Trust will need to work together on a brighter future for the club...

I find it incredibly sad that supporters of the Cobblers can talk to each other like they are on here....what would Brian Lomax say?

That separate report, as you put it is the most concerning thing for me. Not because of what's in it so much but that it was provided to all the people at the meeting without the Trust Board's apparent permission. The document has the Trust logo on it and is titled the same way as their press release about the public meeting.  All I want is for the Trust to be as best as it can be but this has been a massive own goal.

Imagine the uproar on here if this had happened to the club. Beds would be all over it!


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Peles Big Toe on March 12, 2019, 23:25:04 pm
How much do Saints make off corporate boxes? How about Oxford? Reckon it'd be no more than £100k a year absolute max, which is barely a dent in the playing budget.

Given we're already operating at a loss, how can you not only offset that but generate the additional £1m a year itd take to sustain League One football?


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Dan on March 12, 2019, 23:45:53 pm
I can't speak for Oxford. But my company pay over £10k a year for a box at the Saints.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: BedsCobb on March 13, 2019, 07:37:58 am
How much do Saints make off corporate boxes? How about Oxford? Reckon it'd be no more than £100k a year absolute max, which is barely a dent in the playing budget.

Given we're already operating at a loss, how can you not only offset that but generate the additional £1m a year itd take to sustain League One football?
We have lost over £1m in revenues this season by getting relegated to L2.
Sixfields in its present guise can not sustain L1 football and needs redevelopment.
We can keep going around in circles but that is a many time proven fact.
Also there's no such thing as 'just' £100,000 a year, that will pay for or the wage of a very decent striker, these boxes will  house those who are in more of a position to financially help our club etc.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: pattcobb on March 13, 2019, 16:29:45 pm
can some point me to a fan owned club thats not progressed in 50 years?
#timeforchange :-*
Wrexham


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Terryfenwickatemyhamster on March 13, 2019, 17:03:47 pm
Wrexham

The list goes on..

Like I said. The anti KT crowd had us basking in the black in the premiership within three seasons prior to Sunday. Now they're all massive advocates of a safe seat in league one...  ;D ;D

Beds will be content with his executive boxes on the Racecourse by the end of the week.  ;D


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: BedsCobb on March 13, 2019, 17:39:36 pm
A challenging league 1 club that can maximise on it earning potential,  thats all any of us want, had Thomas shown he could start to deliver a small resemblance of this, I would've backed him, but he did nothing but make excuse after excuse claiming frustration at possibly not getting all the free land he hoped for? and this continues wasting our time.
It's time for change, he's had long enough on the pot  ;D


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Terryfenwickatemyhamster on March 13, 2019, 18:43:35 pm
A challenging league 1 club that can maximise on it earning potential,  thats all any of us want, had Thomas shown he could start to deliver a small resemblance of this, I would've backed him, but he did nothing but make excuse after excuse claiming frustration at possibly not getting all the free land he hoped for? and this continues wasting our time.
It's time for change, he's had long enough on the pot  ;D

Come on mate, be honest. You know youíve toned it down an awful lot  ;D

Give a week or two, and youíll have Old Kelvsy back on ya Christmas card list.. Iíve heard that your search history has thrown up some scouting for Olive branches.  8)  :P


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Peles Big Toe on March 13, 2019, 20:15:21 pm
We have lost over £1m in revenues this season by getting relegated to L2.
Sixfields in its present guise can not sustain L1 football and needs redevelopment.
We can keep going around in circles but that is a many time proven fact.
Also there's no such thing as 'just' £100,000 a year, that will pay for or the wage of a very decent striker, these boxes will  house those who are in more of a position to financially help our club etc.

No, that £100k would stem the tide of the operating loss we already make. It would partially subsidise the amount a private owner already invests to keep the club above water. It doesn't automatically add an additional striker to the current playing budget.

If you want to high flying League One football, we'd need to increase the current revenue by a couple million minimum. Corporate boxes and a few thousand on the gates against big opposition doesn't get anywhere close to that. The numbers don't stack up for this supposed untapped potential that others are blind to take advantage of.

I like the idea of fan ownership in the sense it protects the clubs interest and gives some level of transparency. But it shouldn't be presented as an avenue to progress the club further. Realistically without external investment, there would be a lot less money available for the playing squad, and that's the price you pay. It's one or other, can't be both unless another 10k supporters suddenly materialise every match day.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: BedsCobb on March 13, 2019, 23:30:31 pm
No, that £100k would stem the tide of the operating loss we already make. It would partially subsidise the amount a private owner already invests to keep the club above water. It doesn't automatically add an additional striker to the current playing budget.

If you want to high flying League One football, we'd need to increase the current revenue by a couple million minimum. Corporate boxes and a few thousand on the gates against big opposition doesn't get anywhere close to that. The numbers don't stack up for this supposed untapped potential that others are blind to take advantage of.

I like the idea of fan ownership in the sense it protects the clubs interest and gives some level of transparency. But it shouldn't be presented as an avenue to progress the club further. Realistically without external investment, there would be a lot less money available for the playing squad, and that's the price you pay. It's one or other, can't be both unless another 10k supporters suddenly materialise every match day.
You are refering to Sixfields as it is? If so yes, its absolute money drain that Thomas didn't address so now having to dig deeper than need be due to his neglect of duty.
A better equipped Sixfields attracts more income so elevates the need to prop up the shortfall.
An average of 8000 spectators  turning up at a 10/12000 capacity stadium would more than allow us to compete in league 1.
That's 8000 average,  are you suggesting we need 15000?
We dont for league 1.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: The 12th Marquis of Sixfields on March 13, 2019, 23:57:14 pm
Really don't know why you think that 8000 will turn up simply because the ground is a little bit bigger. It's a winning team that will get them in. That is it.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: guest3114 on March 14, 2019, 06:06:37 am
Really don't know why you think that 8000 will turn up simply because the ground is a little bit bigger. It's a winning team that will get them in. That is it.
I think most of us have to accept that this is like talking to a mad relative who sits in the corner at Christmas arguing with the canary. You try to make conversation but after a time it becomes apparent itís just plain futile.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: random on March 14, 2019, 12:15:49 pm
Not sure how quickly the attendance would get to 8 without success but it would certainly go up.

Why is Cineworld often sold out whilst at Vue the same film at the same time is empty?

Those that currently don't go to every game want value and a decent seat, as I said before think about your own choice of seat, the centre and much of the West stand is sold out to season ticket holders. A bigger ground would have more central seats available, those are the ones most people want. More seats would allow more friends to sit together. The only way you can do that now is to sit in the crap seats, wide and front.

But then I don't understand why some of you don't understand that.



Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Terryfenwickatemyhamster on March 14, 2019, 12:45:44 pm
Not sure how quickly the attendance would get to 8 without success but it would certainly go up.

Why is Cineworld often sold out whilst at Vue the same film at the same time is empty?

Those that currently don't go to every game want value and a decent seat, as I said before think about your own choice of seat, the centre and much of the West stand is sold out to season ticket holders. A bigger ground would have more central seats available, those are the ones most people want. More seats would allow more friends to sit together. The only way you can do that now is to sit in the crap seats, wide and front.

But then I don't understand why some of you don't understand that.



So even after what we heard on Sunday about how it is near on impossible to manage the debt with fan/hybrid membership. People are still suggesting that we spend millions on providing more seats for a better view..

Just forget it. Without a wealthy owner or the handing over of loads of land it won't happen..

But then I don't understand why some of you don't understand that.  ;D


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: BackOfTheNet on March 14, 2019, 13:09:12 pm


Why is Cineworld often sold out whilst at Vue the same film at the same time is empty?



Personally, I think Vue is a nicer, more comfortable cinema but I don't like the car park and can't be bothered faffing around with validating the parking ticket so I'll usually go to Cineworld, even though it's a bit further from my house.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: EssTeeFree on March 14, 2019, 14:34:15 pm
What was the official line on the document that was released in the end? Have the Trust clarified how it came into being and why it wasn't endorsed by the Trust Board?


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: lift tower on March 14, 2019, 15:00:31 pm
What was the official line on the document that was released in the end? Have the Trust clarified how it came into being and why it wasn't endorsed by the Trust Board?
Don't know but I saw Keith flick through the tactical bits of the document in the technical area on Tuesday night just before the late substitutions which led to the goal.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: BackOfTheNet on March 14, 2019, 15:27:40 pm
What was the official line on the document that was released in the end? Have the Trust clarified how it came into being and why it wasn't endorsed by the Trust Board?

Good question. Also, what's happened to Meccano? There's not been a peep from him since the meeting. Has he gone into hiding or have the Trust taken him on a one way trip to the Peterborough fens....?


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: EssTeeFree on March 14, 2019, 15:30:11 pm
Don't know but I saw Keith flick through the tactical bits of the document in the technical area on Tuesday night just before the late substitutions which led to the goal.

 ;D

I did notice the club had a sly dig at the document when they tweeted the footage of Powell's goal as well. Clearly been seen within the club, no doubt it will have rattled a few cages. I'm sure a lot of people will have a view on whether that is good or bad!


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: BedsCobb on March 14, 2019, 17:58:55 pm
So even after what we heard on Sunday about how it is near on impossible to manage the debt with fan/hybrid membership. People are still suggesting that we spend millions on providing more seats for a better view..

Just forget it. Without a wealthy owner or the handing over of loads of land it won't happen..

But then I don't understand why some of you don't understand that.  ;D
Didn't being associated with our club allow Thomas and co access to loads of land?
That hasn't paid any dividends to date😂
It's very unlikely a multi millionaire will turn up and pour endless amounts of cash into our club in its present state, so we need to stop looking and using it for an excuse to continue with our stagnation.
Without anyone  knowing what the fan owned/hybrid club actually looks like, you cant  know for sure it couldn't raise  the £1m investment needed to fit out the East stand as a first stage development plan,  then proceed at a later date to in some way raise £1.5m to up the ground capacity by 3000  allowing us to welcome extra home and the many visiting fans we currently miss out on, to a more professional atmospheric looking stadium, preferably as a league 1 club.
£2.5m raised over a 3 year period by the many different ways available would see our club become League 1 ready and in a position to maximise on its earning potential.
After these past 4 seasons,  its quite clear Thomas hasn't any plans for our club, hopefully he can find something else to occupy his time, allowing ntfc to move on as a more progressive club with plans.




Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Freddie Ramscar on March 14, 2019, 19:46:10 pm
Didn't being associated with our club allow Thomas and co access to loads of land?
That hasn't paid any dividends to date😂
It's very unlikely a multi millionaire will turn up and pour endless amounts of cash into our club in its present state, so we need to stop looking and using it for an excuse to continue with our stagnation.
Without anyone  knowing what the fan owned/hybrid club actually looks like, you cant  know for sure it couldn't raise  the £1m investment needed to fit out the East stand as a first stage development plan,  then proceed at a later date to in some way raise £1.5m to up the ground capacity by 3000  allowing us to welcome extra home and the many visiting fans we currently miss out on, to a more professional atmospheric looking stadium, preferably as a league 1 club.
£2.5m raised over a 3 year period by the many different ways available would see our club become League 1 ready and in a position to maximise on its earning potential.
After these past 4 seasons,  its quite clear Thomas hasn't any plans for our club, hopefully he can find something else to occupy his time, allowing ntfc to move on as a more progressive club with plans.


   

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz  ::) zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: In and out on March 14, 2019, 20:12:52 pm
What was the official line on the document that was released in the end? Have the Trust clarified how it came into being and why it wasn't endorsed by the Trust Board?

The silence says it all and is deafening.
I've not seen anything about what else happened at the meeting either.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: wazzacobbler on March 14, 2019, 23:00:22 pm
What was the official line on the document that was released in the end? Have the Trust clarified how it came into being and why it wasn't endorsed by the Trust Board?

If you listen to this week's podcast, you might just find out  ;) 8)


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: guest3114 on March 15, 2019, 02:15:50 am
Not sure how quickly the attendance would get to 8 without success but it would certainly go up.

Why is Cineworld often sold out whilst at Vue the same film at the same time is empty?

Those that currently don't go to every game want value and a decent seat, as I said before think about your own choice of seat, the centre and much of the West stand is sold out to season ticket holders. A bigger ground would have more central seats available, those are the ones most people want. More seats would allow more friends to sit together. The only way you can do that now is to sit in the crap seats, wide and front.

But then I don't understand why some of you don't understand that.


FFS I think most of us understand that Randy. I just think that most of us are struggling to come up with a way of paying for it? The thing I seem to have drawn from the meeting is that ownership and progression from a financial perspective is going to be as challenging and difficult as anticipated. The issue can be dismissed as often as you like on here with the usual rhetoric of catchment area, well wishers and the pinnacles of the business world queuing up for box. However, if you bury your head in the sand on this issue someone or something is going to take a massive bite out of your ar5e. The difference is I understand exactly why you donít understand that. You have clearly never been in the position of having to raise finance on that scale, unlike some of us poor sods on here. When and if you do, you will finally understand.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: In and out on March 15, 2019, 07:51:07 am
If you listen to this week's podcast, you might just find out  ;) 8)

What podcast?


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: BedsCobb on March 15, 2019, 09:05:22 am
FFS I think most of us understand that Randy. I just think that most of us are struggling to come up with a way of paying for it? The thing I seem to have drawn from the meeting is that ownership and progression from a financial perspective is going to be as challenging and difficult as anticipated. The issue can be dismissed as often as you like on here with the usual rhetoric of catchment area, well wishers and the pinnacles of the business world queuing up for box. However, if you bury your head in the sand on this issue someone or something is going to take a massive bite out of your ar5e. The difference is I understand exactly why you donít understand that. You have clearly never been in the position of having to raise finance on that scale, unlike some of us poor sods on here. When and if you do, you will finally understand.
2 dozen clubs, some a lot smaller than us have found the investment to improve their infrastructure, its not a case of how to do it but more one of getting on with it, its a very straight forward process .
 Thomas still being ensconsed here, is a set back,  this after he claimed last year he was on his way.
Nothing will happen until he goes.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: guest3114 on March 15, 2019, 09:19:32 am
2 dozen clubs, some a lot smaller than us have found the investment to improve their infrastructure, its not a case of how to do it but more one of getting on with it, its a very straight forward process .
 Thomas still being ensconsed here, is a set back,  this after he claimed last year he was on his way.
Nothing will happen until he goes.
Great news, get on with it then? Looking forward to seeing the results Beds.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: BedsCobb on March 15, 2019, 09:43:47 am
Great news, get on with it then? Looking forward to seeing the results Beds.
(note my last paragraph )


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: EssTeeFree on March 15, 2019, 09:53:54 am
If you listen to this week's podcast, you might just find out  ;) 8)

Is this the podcast equivalent of clickbait?  ;D



Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: wazzacobbler on March 15, 2019, 10:31:37 am
Is this the podcast equivalent of clickbait?  ;D



Sure is!


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: guest3114 on March 15, 2019, 10:47:56 am
(note my last paragraph )
Noted, Whatís your point?


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: In and out on March 15, 2019, 10:59:06 am
Is this the podcast equivalent of clickbait?  ;D


What podcast?


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: rebelspawn on March 15, 2019, 11:07:11 am
What podcast?

this one:

https://audioboom.com/channels/4973410 (https://audioboom.com/channels/4973410)


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: lift tower on March 15, 2019, 13:38:22 pm
so according to this thread the fan ownership model isn't going to pay the bills, extra boxes and a redeveloped stand isn't going to bring in the necessary finances either, and a billionaire is unlikely to come along and waste his money on us.

So surely the best bet for our future is the limbo we are in now, with a private owner keeping us ticking over hoping to make money off a land deal.

What happens if he makes his money and goes? How do we continue to operate then?


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Terryfenwickatemyhamster on March 15, 2019, 14:04:15 pm
Didn't being associated with our club allow Thomas and co access to loads of land?
That hasn't paid any dividends to date😂



Nothing's been built yet..  ;D

As for the raising of money through fan ownership/hybrid model. Portsmouth couldn't do it in a football obsessed City, with sixteen thousand season ticket holders and eight thousand Trust members. I can see why you think it's a goer..  ;D ::)

I know you are going to have to admit that you and your mates screwed up.. But c'mon. You know you want to. You're just prolonging the agony before you join the sensible side. We'd love to have you back in the fold mate.  :P


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: BedsCobb on March 15, 2019, 14:26:59 pm
Nothing's been built yet..  ;D

As for the raising of money through fan ownership/hybrid model. Portsmouth couldn't do it in a football obsessed City, with sixteen thousand season ticket holders and eight thousand Trust members. I can see why you think it's a goer..  ;D ::)

I know you are going to have to admit that you and your mates screwed up.. But c'mon. You know you want to. You're just prolonging the agony before you join the sensible side. We'd love to have you back in the fold mate.  :P
And I would be very surprised if we ever see as much as a garden shed with this lot😂
Portsmouth fans steadied the ship and became an attractive proposition, gaining some hefty
investment, so mission accomplished,  and good luck to them.
By the trust investigating an alternative to the near 20 years  of Thomas's and cardozas stifling regimes , with false promises and the blaming of all others for their inactivity, Im 100% behind the trust.
As for the sensible side of things,😂😂 if Thomas were to get his 5hit together even in this 11th hour, and proposes a real working plan as to getting our club off its knees, I would, return with head bowed, cap clutched in both hands to get on board with it! But that ain't happening anytime ever😂


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: random on March 15, 2019, 14:41:43 pm
Does anyone really think that KT will build anything, he WON'T, it is so obvious

The club is mothballed whilst KT gets planning permission on the other land. Even if and when that happens KT will not invest one penny more than he absolutely has to into Sixfields. The broken windows in the West stand again point to the old days of DC, KT is no different.

I understand that KT offered the Trust the club for £3m, next week offered it to someone else for £2m, there are wealthy Northampton business people waiting but they are not going to give KT another £2m, adding to the reported £6m for a club he paid £165k for, a club with little value or asset

Now you so called fans can be happy supporting highly secretive owners who have been unscrupulous at best in their dealing with the Trust and NBC , who have done nothing but keep the status quo from the former legend of an idiot owner DC, who have produced no plans, no ideas and no vision for NTFC or call for a change. Give someone else a chance, perhaps Mike Ashley ?  He would be adored and worshipped here unlike those ungrateful Toon army who constantly demand him to leave their beloved club


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Deepcut Cobbler on March 15, 2019, 14:52:03 pm
Does anyone really think that KT will build anything, he WON'T, it is so obvious

The club is mothballed whilst KT gets planning permission on the other land. Even if and when that happens KT will not invest one penny more than he absolutely has to into Sixfields. The broken windows in the West stand again point to the old days of DC, KT is no different.

I understand that KT offered the Trust the club for £3m, next week offered it to someone else for £2m, there are wealthy Northampton business people waiting but they are not going to give KT another £2m, adding to the reported £6m for a club he paid £165k for, a club with little value or asset

Now you so called fans can be happy supporting highly secretive owners who have been unscrupulous at best in their dealing with the Trust and NBC , who have done nothing but keep the status quo from the former legend of an idiot owner DC, who have produced no plans, no ideas and no vision for NTFC or call for a change. Give someone else a chance, perhaps Mike Ashley ?  He would be adored and worshipped here unlike those ungrateful Toon army who constantly demand him to leave their beloved club

Is it?

Will he not?  Isn't he?

Did he?

Hasn't he? Would he?

Some bold statements there...


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: tcobb on March 15, 2019, 15:28:00 pm
Random, are these figures youre quoting 100% correct ? Or have you just heard them from a man down the pub ?
As for being completely open and not keeping secrets, maybe the Trust can be more open, if they were offered the Club, why was it kept from the Supporters they repersresent ? Why have they still not been told officially ? When the Trust decided to apply to have the Stadium as a community asset, did they consult with the fans they represent ? When the Trust decided to pursue the Fan Ownership route did they Consult with the Fans first ? Every thing that the Trust seem to be doing now they are putting it to the fans as the way they want things done ,without consulting with the fans first. So before people start accusing the Club of keeping to many secrets, maybe they should be asking the organisation that is there for the supporters exactly why they are so secretive.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Deepcut Cobbler on March 15, 2019, 16:30:19 pm
Why have the articles regarding the Public Meeting only appearing this afternoon on the Trust website, despite stating that they were posted on the dates below?

8th March - http://ntfctrust.co.uk/news/article/chairmans-personal-view
10th March - http://ntfctrust.co.uk/news/article/good-feedback-from-public-meeting
11th March - http://ntfctrust.co.uk/news/article/review-of-trust-public-meeting-on-community-ownership

Is there an official copy on-line of the pre-meeting leaflet that caused all of the initial kerfuffle?


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: random on March 15, 2019, 17:14:16 pm
Is it?  YES  3.5 years of nothing but waffle and broken promises, there is not one piece of actual evidence to even indicate that KT will develop Sixfields

Will he not?  Isn't he?   He hasn't so far (sorry £3 for hammer to knock in bog door)  Just like DC, same staff, Sixfields looking more tired every month, broken windows not fixed points to a Not Proud to Be

Did he?   Yes as I heard it from reliable sources

Hasn't he? Would he?  Show me the plans then as I must have missed them, well as he has put £100's M and they are in the Prem with a quality manager, compared to the love and support that KT who has had us relegated and treading water in LEAGUE 2 then I would think 1/100th of the investment would be very welcome

Some bold statements there...    well someone has to say it !


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: random on March 15, 2019, 17:31:53 pm
Hi Tcobb, heard them from very reliable sources

Yes i agree that the Trust have been way too secretive and timid of the years however I just listened to the podcast and how can they say that the secrecy surrounding almost every deal KT has done since he got, with the fact that the club is owned via off shore investment vehicles etc be the same as the Trust not stating publicly who they have had money / investment conversations with.

Again most fans don't care about anything off the field, so what would be gained asking re the community asset?  The Trust actually did exactly what you asked re fan ownership, they held a public meeting to consult with the fans, what exactly (and how) do you want them to do?  How can they ask individual fans what they want, and again almost either dont care or don't understand anyway. Look you misinterpret what the meeting was for so how on earth are they supposed to explain every single thing and get an approval on something. Look at all the uproar re the document, it was too detailed and too ambitious, it flew in the face of simple NTFC fans who lap up crappy signing after crappy signing, we no thought as to why all these managers and players keep failing.

As you know my opinion is that NTFC and the people of Northampton should be able to run our football club in at the very very very least on an equal basis as either KT or DC.  There is money there, money to at least get us to a medium and long term plan to be the best football we can be. If Andy Holt and Accrington can do it then why the hell can't we.

I would love the Trust to put together with investors a real plan and a very public offer to KT (try private 1st if you want) to force his hand and tell him we are sick of waiting and of the total mediocrity surrounding our club.



Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: guest3114 on March 15, 2019, 18:09:05 pm

Yep, I get the current business model doesnít serve an ideal purpose. The club has not progressed for the last 50 years and probably wonít for the next 50 either unless something radical takes place? I also canít see the current owners investing in any significant development of the infrastructure for the reasons I have previously stated. The good news is that you will have no doubt noted that fan ownership is being investigated hence the title of the thread. I am not seeing much enthusiastic support for the current owners so Im sure everyone is delighted that there is now a concerted effort to engage in serious debate about how change can be achieved? I just think that most people are a little tired of being lectured about what we should be doing without having any sensible and realistic suggestions regarding how this can be achieved to support it? Personally it doesnít bother me much, as I dont take your rants too seriously. However, I do note that some people do tend to get switched off the idea of the debate by your approach as there is an suggestion of ďthe lunatics taking over the asylumĒ attached to some of the rhetoric on here. Iíve said it before but the irony is that some inadvertently promote the continuation of the status quo with their unbalanced and irrational comments that often cloud any valid points, and I would put yourself right at the forefront of that collective. Perhaps despite your apparent limitations you may be able to take this into consideration?


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: BedsCobb on March 15, 2019, 18:32:05 pm
Random, are these figures youre quoting 100% correct ? Or have you just heard them from a man down the pub ?
As for being completely open and not keeping secrets, maybe the Trust can be more open, if they were offered the Club, why was it kept from the Supporters they repersresent ? Why have they still not been told officially ? When the Trust decided to apply to have the Stadium as a community asset, did they consult with the fans they represent ? When the Trust decided to pursue the Fan Ownership route did they Consult with the Fans first ? Every thing that the Trust seem to be doing now they are putting it to the fans as the way they want things done ,without consulting with the fans first. So before people start accusing the Club of keeping to many secrets, maybe they should be asking the organisation that is there for the supporters exactly why they are so secretive.
Let's look at the opposing side for secretive behavioural traits , Thomas and co, £4m on the hip ready to build up the ship, who were just a few months away from getting started on the East stand, 2 years ago!
Thankfully the council didnt grant then the freedom of the city that entitled them to £10m of free real estate so having just £6m can no longer afford to give a single penny to the clubs redevelopment.
This may be all total bollo cks, but it's what I believe 😂
And as always will be happy to stand corrected and appolgise to anyone suffering hurty feelings.. Go..



Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Terryfenwickatemyhamster on March 15, 2019, 19:32:13 pm
As this has now turned into another redevelopment thread.. Carry it on there.