The Hotel End

The Hotel End => Cobblers Corner => Topic started by: Grove on January 21, 2019, 20:00:49 pm



Title: Fan Ownership
Post by: Grove on January 21, 2019, 20:00:49 pm
So many questions not least , where does the money come from to A) buy the club B) maintain the club C) move forward


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: GrangeParkCobbler on January 21, 2019, 20:10:36 pm
So many questions not least , where does the money come from to A) buy the club B) maintain the club C) move forward
Simple answers?

A) you hope to pick the club up for a pound as the current incumbents cut their losses

B) you maintain the club to break even, that may involve a vastly reduced playing budget to begin with...no point in hiding from that

C) you build on what you have, some of that will come naturally ala Lincoln, the way they have almost trebled their gates by getting fans more involved, being more transparent in their dealings, and making it an attractive proposition for local business to advertise and sponsor. That could affect B) above and may reduce the need for massive cuts.

Cloth is cut accordingly! Solidarity payments and TV revenue are a known figure, but pretty much everything else is variable. Income affects expenditure.....

In the short term the club becomes more attractive to the fans and local business, in the long term it becomes more attractive to possible outside investment. At that time the fans can then decide whether their ambitions have been realised and theyíve taken the club as far as they can.

Very simplistic I know......but why make things difficult?


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Boot and shoe on January 21, 2019, 20:59:15 pm
If we go down this road , we are confined to mediocrity forever .
I donít support it . We are not big enough to carry it off .


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Another Pedj on January 21, 2019, 21:14:24 pm
Simple answers?

A) you hope to pick the club up for a pound as the current incumbents cut their losses

B) you maintain the club to break even, that may involve a vastly reduced playing budget to begin with...no point in hiding from that

C) you build on what you have, some of that will come naturally ala Lincoln, the way they have almost trebled their gates by getting fans more involved, being more transparent in their dealings, and making it an attractive proposition for local business to advertise and sponsor. That could affect B) above and may reduce the need for massive cuts.

Cloth is cut accordingly! Solidarity payments and TV revenue are a known figure, but pretty much everything else is variable. Income affects expenditure.....

In the short term the club becomes more attractive to the fans and local business, in the long term it becomes more attractive to possible outside investment. At that time the fans can then decide whether their ambitions have been realised and theyíve taken the club as far as they can.

Very simplistic I know......but why make things difficult?
just go from A to B to start. Why would they surrender it for a £1. Write off nearly £2million in loans if they are breaking even.  You cannot cut your cloth by cancelling contracts.significant cash required.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: tcobb on January 21, 2019, 21:17:34 pm
I'm with Boot and Shoe, it's not for me, people think it will be so easy, Conference Football is a certainty if the fans were to take over now.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: everbrite on January 21, 2019, 21:32:06 pm
I'm with Boot and Shoe, it's not for me, people think it will be so easy, Conference Football is a certainty if the fans were to take over now.

I agree with this


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Shadowstorm on January 21, 2019, 21:34:44 pm
I'm with Boots and the others with this, it's not the way to go. I don't beleive enough money could be raised to buy let alone run this club. The budgets would be very tight and any potential we have would not be realised. I can only see no leauge football going down this route.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Irchy cob on January 21, 2019, 21:39:02 pm
Same here - I know that meccanoís heart is in the right place but it is a romantic, utopian vision with little to no basis in reality. Donít get me wrong I havenít a clue what the alternative is or how this is going to play out but the prospect of a fans owned or even phoenix club doesnít fill me with joy.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: GrangeParkCobbler on January 21, 2019, 21:49:06 pm
just go from A to B to start. Why would they surrender it for a £1. Write off nearly £2million in loans if they are breaking even.  You cannot cut your cloth by cancelling contracts.significant cash required.

I didnít say anything about cancelling contract, obviously thatís an expensive road to go down.

Why would they surrender it for a £1.....erm, isnít that what DC did in the end? And we are nowhere near breaking even, Iím pretty sure of that! The maths do not add up.

Let me just say Iím not actually advocating 100% fan ownership, indeed it would be full of pitfalls along the way, however I would advocate a Ďcommunity run clubí.....with a potential local suitor sitting above keeping an eye on things.

What I certainly donít advocate are property developers hiding behind various shell companies, some of which are offshore and little communication about anything whatsoever. Undisclosed transfer fees would be a thing of the past!


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: BackOfTheNet on January 21, 2019, 21:58:25 pm
I stand by what I said a few months ago when this started to be bandied about; under fan ownership we'd go into administration within three seasons.

Fan ownership is a lovely, idealistic daydream but it's not something I want to see happen as it would swiftly turn sour in the real world.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: GrangeParkCobbler on January 21, 2019, 22:27:30 pm
I stand by what I said a few months ago when this started to be bandied about; under fan ownership we'd go into administration within three seasons.

Fan ownership is a lovely, idealistic daydream but it's not something I want to see happen as it would swiftly turn sour in the real world.

Look, it isnít going to be for everyone, and who knows how it would turn out. You may be correct, you may not! Itís the fear of the unknown.
But.....plan A isnít working....does that mean we just accept the status quo because thatís the easy option?


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: GrangeParkCobbler on January 21, 2019, 22:36:12 pm
http://ntfctrust.co.uk/news/article/statement-public-meeting-to-discuss-community-ownership

The Trust statement.

Iím a bit confused, firstly it says hybrid public/fan ownership, but later it says hybrid private/fan ownership.

Arenít these two different things?


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: memyhead on January 21, 2019, 23:29:59 pm
Heart says great idea, reality says otherwise...

KT said in response to @NQNTFC questions on Twitter last week that funding is still in place to complete the East Stand, he's finally got Council back on board after the mess DC left us/them in. I know it's been a painful process but surely we need to see how this pans out...

Have the trust got a backer who will have the funds to actually complete East Stand as I like everyone else am sick to death of looking at that current monstrosity?


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: FezNTFC on January 21, 2019, 23:53:19 pm
Apologies for the incoming essay, but here goes.

The reality is that no ownership model, either fan owned or privately owned, guarantees success or failure. For the rose tinted who think that everything would be hunky dory with a Trust run club, you donít know. For those who say we would be guaranteed to go down to the Conference, you donít know.

So hereís a bit more context around this whole issue.

At the NTFC Trust AGM last year, James Mathie from Supportersí Direct, and Don Woodward - the former Wycombe chairman who oversaw the transition to fan ownership at Adams Park - attended the meeting.

James Mathie quoted a Deloitte report that the average loss in League Two in 2015/16 was £500k before player trading. In League One that jumped up to £1.6m. He also mentioned a BDO report that focussed on how reliant clubs are on their owners to fund losses. The most recent stats show that a third of clubs in Leagues One and Two were totally reliant on their owners to make up for losses.
 
This, James Mathie said, leads to short termism. Although in a fan owned model you obviously donít get the level of short term cash injection you would with a private owner chasing success, thereís a long term strategy in place for incremental growth.

Wrexham fans took over their club eight years ago and since then they have grown the turnover each year without relying on player sales and posted a profit this year.

A community share is a popular method that was used by Portsmouth. They raised £2.5m from it, and this is a mechanism that the Trust here in Northampton could look at. Admittedly, the Trust at Pompey felt they had taken the club as far as they could and sold onto private owners. How it works out I guess weíll see, but theyíre doing well this year.

Don Woodward then spoke about his time at Wycombe. He said they had one owner who was supporting two sides (Wycombe and Wasps) at the same time. Don said that Wanderers were losing £1.5m - £2m per year.

The Trust at Wycombe stepped up from being a critical friend to running the club. It would have been easier had they prepared for such an eventuality years before, which is what NTFC Trust is currently doing. But they avoided relegation to the Conference, and have subsequently had a promotion to League One.

Don estimated that NTFC Trust would need to raise £1-2m over the next two years to run the club on a break even level. It sounds incredibly difficult, but if everyone gets behind a goal itís achievable he thinks.

Portsmouth had ten local business owners getting involved. Don is very confident that local businesses in Northampton will get on board if itís a community ownership model - he reckons they could contribute as much as £100k each.

Of course, there are examples too of when fan ownership hasnít gone so well. Notts County supporters for example sold the club to Munto Finance without any due diligence on their new owners, and things didnít go as planned there.

So we have some success stories, and we have some failures as well.

Another important thing to remember is that the current Trust board would not be running the show. They would bring in professionals to run the football club. No supporters owned club is run by the people who used to run the car boot sales or make the coffees on matchdays.

We would also be able to call on the help of Supporters Direct, which was formed by Brian Lomax and knows what to do in ensuring that Trusts can take on the running of a football club.

So my summary from all this information is that I guess in the end it comes down to what you would prefer. Do you prefer a privately run club with the potential for greater success but much higher risks, or the club that tries to make gradual changes, albeit still with some risk attached to it but with those risks being balanced against the best interests of the club rather than the best interests of a private owner?

I can understand why some people would choose the former, we all want to see the Cobblers challenging at the highest level. But the caveat to that is that more than 50 years of private ownership has secured NTFC the grand sum of two seasons in the second tier of the football league, and a solitary season in the first. Compare that to the three times weíve nearly gone out of business altogether. That too should be taken into consideration.

Also, is making the Championship a fair yardstick to measure a fan owned club against given the facts Iíve just mentioned and clubís history of bouncing between Leagues One and Two? How about measuring it against whether we could ever become a stable League One club that competes to go up to the second tier? Is that not an achievable goal which we could aspire to, and then hopefully build on if the club grows?

Meanwhile, Exeter, Newport County, AFC Wimbledon and Wycombe, all Trust run, are all currently above us in the Football League pyramid and with none of them staring at to the trapdoor to the Conference.

So yes, letís have a debate. There are pros and cons on both sides, and none of us actually know how it would work out.

So come along to that public meeting when itís held, absorb some actual facts and be open to the idea of hearing both sides of the argument.

UTC.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: guest2724 on January 22, 2019, 07:29:17 am
I think that's a very helpful explanation of the Trusts thinking by Fez..

The statement by the Trust is careful and welcome (at least by me) at another critical time in the cobblers history.

The successful asset of community value registration does give the Trust some opportunity to make it's voice heard more loudly than at any stage. This perhaps has not been as fully discussed on here or elsewhere (or perhaps even on the Trust's own website) as it should be. This is probably because it might seem to be both somewhat boring(!), complicated and unrelated to the future of the club but it will probably be a critical part of any supporters involvement in the club.

I think in the next few months the outcome of the discussions/negotiations between NBC and the club will be made public and the picture will become much clearer regarding the future of the club and the East Stand.

Ultimately, whether the supporters can become involved will be down to resources, competence and the strength of support by cobblers fans to pursue this. Scepticism is good - the best option will only develop when it has been tested by supporter questioning. As Fez says, the typical club in Div 2 loses £500,000 every year before player trading and therefore any supporter led club couldn't operate on this basis.

At the same time, there are many clubs, especially in the championship, who have very wealthy owners who have invested huge amounts of money into clubs and failed to get either promoted or even stay in the championship so money alone is not the answer to a successful club.

I would urge everybody not to dismiss this until you have heard what the Trust have to say and their ideas for the future. Lots, maybe most, supporters are only interested in how well the team plays and where we are in the league. At the same time, for other people the club is more than just what happens on the pitch. It should be possible with wise leadership for both sets of objectives to run in parallel!


Supporters of the cobblers, us very long suffering folk, should be grateful that the Trust exists and is trying hard.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: BackOfTheNet on January 22, 2019, 07:38:48 am
Look, it isnít going to be for everyone, and who knows how it would turn out. You may be correct, you may not! Itís the fear of the unknown.
But.....plan A isnít working....does that mean we just accept the status quo because thatís the easy option?

Look at it this way. Imagine you are struggling to make your mortgage repayments, have missed a few and the bank have got you on a final warning but this month you've scraped together the cash to cover it. Do you a) make the payment or b) think "**** it" and spunk the lot on lottery tickets?

If plan B comes off you are laughing and will never have to worry about the mortgage again. If it doesn't, you and your family will likely be without a home.

I don't think there are many people who'd risk option b. Personally, I'd rather plod along, ekeing enough together each month to survive and sticking with the status quo.

It's not about fear of the unknown, it's about mitigation of risk.

If someone wants to risk their house on plan B then that's up to them and ultimately only affects them. If they want to roll the dice on something that risks the future of MY team then it's not something I appreciate.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: BackOfTheNet on January 22, 2019, 07:54:36 am
One element of caution I'd add to Fez's reasoned post is that Wrexham keep getting cited as a great success story, but I looked into it a bit the last time they were mentioned.

Yes, they might be growing turnover year on year without relying on player sales, but they only made a profit this year BECAUSE of a player sale (actually, from a sell on fee but the principle is the same). Without that they'd have posted another significant loss.

Growing turnover is easy if you sell at a loss; turning a regular profit to make that growth sustainable is the tricky part (especially without a wealthy backer to bail you out) and I see no evidence that they've got an answer to that!


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: exiledinspace on January 22, 2019, 07:56:25 am



Portsmouth had ten local business owners getting involved. Don is very confident that local businesses in Northampton will get on board if itís a community ownership model - he reckons they could contribute as much as £100k each.

50 years of private ownership has secured NTFC the grand sum of two seasons in the second tier of the football league, and a solitary season in the first. Compare that to the three times weíve nearly gone out of business altogether. That too should be taken into consideration.


This for me is the crucial factor and GPC is also on point again. A succession of investors masquerading as owners have poisoned the relationship between not only the town and the club but many long term supporters too. The club is being treated like a ****.

Confidence in the club from local businesses is shattered, very few will go anywhere near us. My close friend was the clubs main sponsor back in the 90's and agrees.

Until some "body" or consortium with local connections or genuine intentions for the club and it's future are in place it will remain the same. There is probably more financial help, investment or sponsorship out there than possibly some here may imagine, but only if good will and confidence can return.

I started going in 1981, we were mid table in the fourth division......


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Vintage Cobbler on January 22, 2019, 08:02:51 am
Excellent post by Fez which should be carefully considered by all. 

Whichever side of the debate you are on one thing must be clear to everyone and this is that the present ownership model for NTFC is broken.  McRichie, Cardozas, DB/KT have all succeeded in severely disappointing us.  We have to change direction and now is the time to consider other possibilities and at the very least keep an open mind until we know exactly what is on the table.  The rush by some to hasty negative judgment is unwise and unhelpful.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: SadOldGit on January 22, 2019, 08:20:29 am
If we go down this road , we are confined to mediocrity forever .
I donít support it . We are not big enough to carry it off .

Oh, and private ownership has done us so well in over a hundred years to avoid mediocrity has it?


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Boot and shoe on January 22, 2019, 09:03:22 am
Oh, and private ownership has done us so well in over a hundred years to avoid mediocrity has it?
Private ownership has given us some enjoyable times and some desperate times .
Fan ownership , in my view would just stagnate us .
You need someone who can write off the inevitable losses .
I believe we would be in danger of dropping out the league .
Donít get me wrong , I have absolutely no idea about what the alternative answer is currently . There appears to be no drive from above whatsoever . We are a club with no agenda right now .


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Another Pedj on January 22, 2019, 09:34:39 am
Private ownership has given us some enjoyable times and some desperate times .
Fan ownership , in my view would just stagnate us .
You need someone who can write off the inevitable losses .
I believe we would be in danger of dropping out the league .
Donít get me wrong , I have absolutely no idea about what the alternative answer is currently . There appears to be no drive from above whatsoever . We are a club with no agenda right now .


The problem is that whilst well intentioned it will not work unless it has generous benefactors behind it. The raising of the 1-2 million may be just possible Say 3000 individuals at £500 each. That however is for working capital. It does not acquire the club pay off the existing indebtedness or develop the ground.  The key will be the Trusts financial plans and what level of support they have behind them.

The involvement of Wycombe does emphasize this case. They were only able to do so because they had the support of a Rugby man who wanted Wasps to play there. He has move on to Coventry. The trust are now recommending the sale to private individuals.

Newport had the backing of a European Lottery winner who walked away writing off his investment by transferring the shares to the Trust.

Exeter is a good model but has relied for years on the sale of young player for very large sums.

Portsmouth have recently moved away from the Trust.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: unicobbler on January 22, 2019, 09:39:26 am
Its encouraging to see a positive discussion on this  and hopefully the thread can continue in the same way.
Personally I'm not a fan of fan ownership models as for me the risk to our future is to high, even though I agree we've not had a great period.

Fez's post has some great and interesting points and is well balanced. It would be interesting to see what local business we have and how much they would contribute. My biggest concern with it is where the money comes from. If we need £1.5-2m and Portsmouth has 10 companies giving 100k each that still leaves us £0.5-1m short, and could we really attract the same level of investment as Portsmouth? If we can get offers in principle that could cover close to the requirement then it becomes more attractive.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: meccanostand on January 22, 2019, 09:45:00 am
Fan Ownership story here via the NeneQuirer. Includes Trust statement on the redevelopment.

https://nenequirer.com/2019/01/21/supporters-trust-to-investigate-fan-ownership-bid-for-cobblers/ (https://nenequirer.com/2019/01/21/supporters-trust-to-investigate-fan-ownership-bid-for-cobblers/)


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: WasRambo on January 22, 2019, 09:57:19 am
Euromillions jackpot is up to £61 million tonight.

My spreadsheet says I'd have enough to buy the club and be able to cover the losses until we my 5 year plan gets us to the Prem....


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: barton cobbler on January 22, 2019, 10:47:13 am


The involvement of Wycombe does emphasize this case. They were only able to do so because they had the support of a Rugby man who wanted Wasps to play there. He has move on to Coventry. The trust are now recommending the sale to private individuals. Since when ?

.




Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Boot and shoe on January 22, 2019, 10:49:03 am
The problem is that whilst well intentioned it will not work unless it has generous benefactors behind it. The raising of the 1-2 million may be just possible Say 3000 individuals at £500 each. That however is for working capital. It does not acquire the club pay off the existing indebtedness or develop the ground.  The key will be the Trusts financial plans and what level of support they have behind them.

The involvement of Wycombe does emphasize this case. They were only able to do so because they had the support of a Rugby man who wanted Wasps to play there. He has move on to Coventry. The trust are now recommending the sale to private individuals.

Newport had the backing of a European Lottery winner who walked away writing off his investment by transferring the shares to the Trust.

Exeter is a good model but has relied for years on the sale of young player for very large sums.

Portsmouth have recently moved away from the Trust.
Exactly - fan ownership can work if you are backed by a fan with a load of money !
As a utilitarian business model I donít think it stands up for a club of our size .


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Another Pedj on January 22, 2019, 11:05:54 am


http://www.wycombewandererstrust.com/


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: guest3230 on January 22, 2019, 11:44:00 am
I'm against fan ownership but understand the reasons behind looking into it and the options outside of our current ownership model.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: AbingtonCobbler on January 22, 2019, 11:50:53 am
Fans ownership is a non-starter.

There is no chance of raising enough capital for the acquisition, day to day running, maintenance and improvement works, players wages etc.

Nice idea but sorry no.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Deepcut Cobbler on January 22, 2019, 12:13:02 pm
This proposed fan ownership is the 100% option.
Is the German version of 51% being investigated?


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: barton cobbler on January 22, 2019, 15:24:52 pm
http://www.wycombewandererstrust.com/
Fair point, well made !  ;D


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Manwork04 on January 22, 2019, 15:35:43 pm
This proposed fan ownership is the 100% option.
Is the German version of 51% being investigated?
Spot on Deepcut this is the best model going forward.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: The 12th Marquis of Sixfields on January 22, 2019, 20:07:40 pm


B) you maintain the club to break even, that may involve a vastly reduced playing budget to begin with...no point in hiding from that

That will not get the crowds in.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Melbourne Cobbler on January 22, 2019, 21:29:03 pm
This proposed fan ownership is the 100% option.
Is the German version of 51% being investigated?
It should be. The posts questioning fan ownership raise some valid points and to deny its flaws as a model is misguided. My personal view is that it is the most likely to achieve the realistic aspirations of the support base. However in my assessment it would take 3000-5000 supporters to invest a total of around 7 to 9 million to stand a chance of taking the club forward. This would need to be near matched by outside investment taking up the remaining 49%. With restriction on shareholdings preventing a hostile takeover outsider corporate investors just may buy into the romance of the model. This would give a total of 14 to 17 million. Is this achievable, is there the appetite for this, I suspect not but thatís my assessment in aligning what we would want with what we would need. All done pretty much blind of course but thought I would put it out there again. The bottom line is if there was the appetite for this across the support base on those general terms I would be up for a punt and so I believe would Manny, but so far thatís about it? Hardly the the attractive master plan Iíd hoped for?


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: BedsCobb on January 22, 2019, 23:14:07 pm
It should be. The posts questioning fan ownership raise some valid points and to deny its flaws as a model is misguided. My personal view is that it is the most likely to achieve the realistic aspirations of the support base. However in my assessment it would take 3000-5000 supporters to invest a total of around 7 to 9 million to stand a chance of taking the club forward. This would need to be near matched by outside investment taking up the remaining 49%. With restriction on shareholdings preventing a hostile takeover outsider corporate investors just may buy into the romance of the model. This would give a total of 14 to 17 million. Is this achievable, is there the appetite for this, I suspect not but thatís my assessment in aligning what we would want with what we would need. All done pretty much blind of course but thought I would put it out there again. The bottom line is if there was the appetite for this across the support base on those general terms I would be up for a punt and so I believe would Manny, but so far thatís about it? Hardly the the attractive master plan Iíd hoped for?
You do love your big unattainable numbers.
At no time in the clubs history has anyone invested more than 500k at any one time and the club has bounced along   surviving hand to mouth on the good will of the very few fans that bother to turn up.
£17m would make life very easy but it's not essential as only Sunderland could dream of that kind of investment.
A fan run club working closely with local buisneses would only need to show an upturn of 50% increase of gate revenues, corporate match day takings, food and beverages etc and to acheive its immediate goals of stages of redevelopment of the stadium over a period of time and attain and establish a league 1 presence.
We would not need anything like these fanciful figures to take the first steps to building up our club.
None of us would expect us to make record signings just to hook better quality players from the pool all clubs get them from.
Steady year on year growth working with all the clubs catchment and buisness community catches monkey.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Crutchless on January 23, 2019, 00:17:19 am
Now then.  The great thing about a Capitalist Society is that you can make loads of dosh, even from a failed business plan.

So, what you do in this instance is, get a few people (maybe 6 or 7) who would be prepared to sacrifice £100 each (initial Share listing to prove it is a bona fide business).  You set up a new company called "Cobblers 2019 Ltd" - sorry - an extra £200 or so to find to set the company up.....  ooops, my maths are bad already.

But, then, having set up said company, you buy the Cobblers from Thomas etc for the same £1 that they paid for it.

Having done that, you declare yourselves bankrupt, due to the huge debts you have acquired.  You then appoint another Hotel-Ender (who hopefully has an Accounting Qualification - over and above counting sheep - to act as Administrator).  They then negotiate a write-down/write-off of all owings to something more manageable.

The Bankrupt Company of "Cobblers 2019 Ltd" is then sold to another group of fans each prepared to sacrifice £100 each, to form a new company called "Cobblers Again 2019 Ltd" - sorry -forgot the set-up fees again.... darn.....

Carry on ad infinitum until there are no more debts.

You will lose all real businesses as supporters and sponsors.  And probably cause a few local businesses to go under.

But, the club will be otherwise debt-free and manageable.

Eh, voila..... That is how Mr.Big-Money becomes Mr.Big-Money in a Capitalist Society.... (and also, how fans can buy the club with bugger all dosh.)

Dare you do it, though?


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Melbourne Cobbler on January 23, 2019, 02:23:36 am
You do love your big unattainable numbers.
At no time in the clubs history has anyone invested more than 500k at any one time and the club has bounced along   surviving hand to mouth on the good will of the very few fans that bother to turn up.
£17m would make life very easy but it's not essential as only Sunderland could dream of that kind of investment.
A fan run club working closely with local buisneses would only need to show an upturn of 50% increase of gate revenues, corporate match day takings, food and beverages etc and to acheive its immediate goals of stages of redevelopment of the stadium over a period of time and attain and establish a league 1 presence.
We would not need anything like these fanciful figures to take the first steps to building up our club.
None of us would expect us to make record signings just to hook better quality players from the pool all clubs get them from.
Steady year on year growth working with all the clubs catchment and buisness community catches monkey.
Just an opinion, based on figures pulled out of the air. Happy to listen to any realistic business plans and happy to put my money into anything viable. Just a general observation, but the idea that the club can be moved forward on 500k isnít viable, again in my opinion and quoting the clubs track record on this is a bit pointless given we all agree that our current state is unsatisfactory? One thing I can tell you from experience is that as a general rule when you enter into an area that is outside of your area of expertise it generally costs 30% more and takes 30% longer than forecast. As a general rule of course. To be honest if your proposal was the one on the table I wouldnít be investing anything, but no problem because you wouldnít need it anyway. Iím sticking to 14 million minimum to take control of the club, move it forward, cover the unforeseen and have a provable line of credit to ensure you can get a contractor to stick a stick a spade in the ground. Again just my opinion based on blind observation.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Crutchless on January 23, 2019, 04:03:26 am
Just an opinion, based on figures pulled out of the air. Happy to listen to any realistic business plans and happy to put my money into anything viable. Just a general observation, but the idea that the club can be moved forward on 500k isnít viable, again in my opinion and quoting the clubs track record on this is a bit pointless given we all agree that our current state is unsatisfactory? One thing I can tell you from experience is that as a general rule when you enter into an area that is outside of your area of expertise it generally costs 30% more and takes 30% longer than forecast. As a general rule of course. To be honest if your proposal was the one on the table I wouldnít be investing anything, but no problem because you wouldnít need it anyway. Iím sticking to 14 million minimum to take control of the club, move it forward, cover the unforeseen and have a provable line of credit to ensure you can get a contractor to stick a stick a spade in the ground. Again just my opinion based on blind observation.

Re: your 30%s.....  Good point.  And I sort of agree (you are now tainted by association to be abused by "The Board"....  ie, the Zombies).  Except, you need to be stronger.......

In the days when I was involved in very innovative stuff (like the first horseless carriage), the guidelines on costs for stuff that you had no knowledge of was.....  think of everything you can, make it worse case, then double it to make up for the things you haven't thought of (ie, 200%), then double it again (ie, take it to 400%) as you are always over optimistic on future achievements.  Surprisingly, a few such projects succeeded.  The majority died to cost over-runs.... 

Does our board think it is the punk that Clint Eastwood questioned?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQaehcfXvK0

I fear some piggy banks are going to get shafted to pursue this one.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: St Edmundsbury Cobbler on January 23, 2019, 07:27:12 am
Excellent post by Fez which should be carefully considered by all. 

Whichever side of the debate you are on one thing must be clear to everyone and this is that the present ownership model for NTFC is broken.  McRichie, Cardozas, DB/KT have all succeeded in severely disappointing us.  We have to change direction and now is the time to consider other possibilities and at the very least keep an open mind until we know exactly what is on the table.  The rush by some to hasty negative judgment is unwise and unhelpful.

I think mentioning the current owners in the same breath as those two bastards is rather harsh.

As for fan ownership, I was against this until reading Fez's post. I'm more interested in this. If the trust was to look at community shares would there be a minimum investment that would allow fans on a modest income to get involved.

Also I'd be interested in what targets the club would set for managers. Recent years there's been a shrug of shoulders when we've gone out of the league and FA  Cups or been relegated without a fight from League 1. Both cups represent good extra sums of income both in terms of prize and gate money and my opinion is that the target for the team is to get to Round 2 of the League Cup and Round three of the FA Cup. Staying in League One this season would have guaranteed at least six full houses at Sixfields that we missed out on because so many poor to completly unacceptable performances from a highly paid manager and his highly paid players were simply tolerated for too long.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Melbourne Cobbler on January 23, 2019, 08:36:32 am
Re: your 30%s.....  Good point.  And I sort of agree (you are now tainted by association to be abused by "The Board"....  ie, the Zombies).  Except, you need to be stronger.......

In the days when I was involved in very innovative stuff (like the first horseless carriage), the guidelines on costs for stuff that you had no knowledge of was.....  think of everything you can, make it worse case, then double it to make up for the things you haven't thought of (ie, 200%), then double it again (ie, take it to 400%) as you are always over optimistic on future achievements.  Surprisingly, a few such projects succeeded.  The majority died to cost over-runs.... 

Does our board think it is the punk that Clint Eastwood questioned?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQaehcfXvK0

I fear some piggy banks are going to get shafted to pursue this one.
Ah, I see you are somewhat sceptical? To be fair your proposal is quite a bit more popular than mine. Disappointingly mine appears to be going down like a bag of sick?


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: exiledinspace on January 23, 2019, 08:37:40 am
I think mentioning the current owners in the same breath as those two bastards is rather harsh.

As for fan ownership, I was against this until reading Fez's post. I'm more interested in this. If the trust was to look at community shares would there be a minimum investment that would allow fans on a modest income to get involved.

Also I'd be interested in what targets the club would set for managers. Recent years there's been a shrug of shoulders when we've gone out of the league and FA  Cups or been relegated without a fight from League 1. Both cups represent good extra sums of income both in terms of prize and gate money and my opinion is that the target for the team is to get to Round 2 of the League Cup and Round three of the FA Cup. Staying in League One this season would have guaranteed at least six full houses at Sixfields that we missed out on because so many poor to completly unacceptable performances from a highly paid manager and his highly paid players were simply tolerated for too long.

Totally agree.

Despite living in Asia, I would certainly be interested in investing some of my spare cash into something tangible for the future of the club. I may be insane but I'm sure there are others, equally challenged who would want to invest too.

The world has moved on since chairmen wore sheepskins, smoked cigars and drove Jags, there are a multitude of ways to raise funding and cash, all it needs is a spotty nerd to sort it out. (I've seen many of them at games before)

Confidence need to be restored, I do believe there could be a hidden groundswell of support for the club with the right "team" at the helm.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Coolcat on January 23, 2019, 13:44:31 pm
Totally agree.

Despite living in Asia, I would certainly be interested in investing some of my spare cash into something tangible for the future of the club. I may be insane but I'm sure there are others, equally challenged who would want to invest too.

The world has moved on since chairmen wore sheepskins, smoked cigars and drove Jags, there are a multitude of ways to raise funding and cash, all it needs is a spotty nerd to sort it out. (I've seen many of them at games before)

Confidence need to be restored, I do believe there could be a hidden groundswell of support for the club with the right "team" at the helm.
I believe Jeema was once an accountant!   ;D

Yes, the FEZ post has certainly offered a reasoned perspective to consider, though personally, I've always viewed fan ownership as a last resort, when clubs are financially up the creek without a paddle.
Maybe that view needs re-assessing!


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Melbourne Cobbler on January 23, 2019, 14:15:59 pm
Totally agree.

Despite living in Asia, I would certainly be interested in investing some of my spare cash into something tangible for the future of the club. I may be insane but I'm sure there are others, equally challenged who would want to invest too.

The world has moved on since chairmen wore sheepskins, smoked cigars and drove Jags, there are a multitude of ways to raise funding and cash, all it needs is a spotty nerd to sort it out. (I've seen many of them at games before)

Confidence need to be restored, I do believe there could be a hidden groundswell of support for the club with the right "team" at the helm.
Getting the right ďteamĒ at the helm would be one of biggest challenges and important decisions to be made. It could indeed be the catalyst required. More wise words from the beach.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Zen Master on January 23, 2019, 19:01:20 pm
Imagine if we had a tidy ground with conference facilities and boxes, zero debt and a cash injection to get started. It couldnít go wrong. Could it?


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: cobblergaz59 on January 23, 2019, 23:07:34 pm
Imagine if we had a ground with conference facilities
Pretty sure Beds keeps telling us we already have this  ;D ;D


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: BedsCobb on January 24, 2019, 00:36:40 am
Pretty sure Beds keeps telling us we already have this  ;D ;D
Had to read that twice, Conferencing  centre for 7 day a week income, not a visit to the vanarama in our blue square ground  ;)


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Lukey on January 24, 2019, 00:57:42 am
Welcome Joe, looking forward to seeing what he can do when he settles in.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: St Edmundsbury Cobbler on January 24, 2019, 05:14:39 am
Imagine if we had a tidy ground with conference facilities and boxes, zero debt and a cash injection to get started. It couldnít go wrong. Could it?

If the "How to not do fan ownership" book survived the demolition of Nene Park then that would be well worth a read.

In addition to that, if we could get the "How to avoid chairmen that really are only after land and slowly kill a football club the process" book, then pick that up too.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Zen Master on January 24, 2019, 07:38:28 am
Pretty sure Beds keeps telling us we already have this  ;D ;D

Glad it was noticed


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Vintage Cobbler on January 24, 2019, 20:57:45 pm
https://nenequirer.com/2019/01/24/cobblers-supporters-trust-launches-project-proud-to-be/

The project is moving forward.  Keep an open mind and consider what we have not achieved on or off the pitch with the present ownership model.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Melbourne Cobbler on January 24, 2019, 21:40:34 pm
Whilst different ideas about funding and the like have been put up on here for me there are some criteria that are absolutely vital. The first is that the support base must hold the majority share. The second is that it must be structured in such a way so as the club cannot revert to individual or private ownership. I understand that the German principal has the 50 to 1 rule (with a couple of exceptions) to underpin the model. Given that legislative support doesnít exist, the articles and memorandums would need to be carefully drafted and rigorously applied to support the principal. Whilst we can all argue about the amount and types of funding the basic principles of ownership are absolutely everything and at least initially I think the main focus should be on establishing this? I have read that options will be considered from 10% supporter owned up. Whilst it is right in principle to investigate all options, my view is that it is absolutely vital that the fan base hold the majority share and I would stringently oppose any proposal to the contrary.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Terryfenwickatemyhamster on January 24, 2019, 22:55:24 pm
https://nenequirer.com/2019/01/24/cobblers-supporters-trust-launches-project-proud-to-be/

The project is moving forward.  Keep an open mind and consider what we have not achieved on or off the pitch with the present ownership model.

About the same as all the clubs with fan ownership   ;D ;D



Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: DrillingCobbler on January 25, 2019, 07:14:49 am
My *ideal* scenario at this point, and based on my interpretation, research and what I believe would work would be for a circa 25% stake, proper board representation, and an agreed 'investment' level that the Trust contributes towards the cost of running the club, year on year.

For this, The Trust would work very closely with a local based investor/s with the club at heart. Not to make a profit from land, basically.

Such a relationship, for me, would tick all the boxes. An ability to tap into the corporate market more so, and to entice more people to games. Based on 'feel good factor', that the money isn't just being chucked into a bottomless pit. Also, I personally believe that most reputable business people that bring decent £££ to the table, would want the majority of shares and final say on matters. I 'get that'. BUT. It has to be totally transparent, if I was mega rich Id happily take on NTFC and work with the fans, providing my own investment was totally protected.

Transparency is key moving forward. For many years we had 'open and honest' Big Dave; now we've got someone who 'under promises, over delivers'.

We have had and still have various 'subsidiary businesses' associated in some way or another with NTFC, either direct or indirect. No one truly knows what these are for. Tax benefits? NTFC doesn't make a profit, never has done...so what the tax benefits and other benefits of having such a complicated financial structure are, only a select few know.

All money generated from the football club, land etc, to be channelled back into the football club to build it up. Essentially, 'not for profit'.

My issue and it is a huge issue is that we've had owners who want to make money. Thats because they are not 'fans', or someone that is happy to 'profit in other areas' by association/brand. This has been the case now for, what, 15 years? Sitting on a patch of land that could, if done properly, elevate NTFC to another level.

If that takes full ownership/majority ownership to achieve then Id also be all up for it. Buying the football club itself, and not the associated land..thats the bit I don't personally know/understand the potential ramifications of.

Some people on here talk purely from a capitalist stance. I've got my own business, have had for 13 years. 10 people on the payroll plus directors. I only say that, purely to enforce my own stance that morally, I do not believe it is right to try and make profit from what is essentially a community asset. Whilst it is privately owned, football is very different to other businesses. So for me, that argument doesn't wash one bit. If I could get my hands on a football club (not one I support) with the potential to make money, I simply wouldn't do it. Because I do not believe its the right thing to do.







Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Melbourne Cobbler on January 25, 2019, 08:06:09 am
My *ideal* scenario at this point, and based on my interpretation, research and what I believe would work would be for a circa 25% stake, proper board representation, and an agreed 'investment' level that the Trust contributes towards the cost of running the club, year on year.

For this, The Trust would work very closely with a local based investor/s with the club at heart. Not to make a profit from land, basically.

Such a relationship, for me, would tick all the boxes. An ability to tap into the corporate market more so, and to entice more people to games. Based on 'feel good factor', that the money isn't just being chucked into a bottomless pit. Also, I personally believe that most reputable business people that bring decent £££ to the table, would want the majority of shares and final say on matters. I 'get that'. BUT. It has to be totally transparent, if I was mega rich Id happily take on NTFC and work with the fans, providing my own investment was totally protected.

Transparency is key moving forward. For many years we had 'open and honest' Big Dave; now we've got someone who 'under promises, over delivers'.

We have had and still have various 'subsidiary businesses' associated in some way or another with NTFC, either direct or indirect. No one truly knows what these are for. Tax benefits? NTFC doesn't make a profit, never has done...so what the tax benefits and other benefits of having such a complicated financial structure are, only a select few know.

All money generated from the football club, land etc, to be channelled back into the football club to build it up. Essentially, 'not for profit'.

My issue and it is a huge issue is that we've had owners who want to make money. Thats because they are not 'fans', or someone that is happy to 'profit in other areas' by association/brand. This has been the case now for, what, 15 years? Sitting on a patch of land that could, if done properly, elevate NTFC to another level.

If that takes full ownership/majority ownership to achieve then Id also be all up for it. Buying the football club itself, and not the associated land..thats the bit I don't personally know/understand the potential ramifications of.

Some people on here talk purely from a capitalist stance. I've got my own business, have had for 13 years. 10 people on the payroll plus directors. I only say that, purely to enforce my own stance that morally, I do not believe it is right to try and make profit from what is essentially a community asset. Whilst it is privately owned, football is very different to other businesses. So for me, that argument doesn't wash one bit. If I could get my hands on a football club (not one I support) with the potential to make money, I simply wouldn't do it. Because I do not believe its the right thing to do.






some good points DC but are you not concerned that with your preferred proposal the club remains vulnerable to be taken over by another undesirable owner? If the majority shareholding is with a corporation, individual or small group and collective you are at their mercy. They could be morally upstanding such as yourself prepared to run the club on a non profit basis. However if they fall on hard times or are victim to an unforeseen set of circumstances they may be forced to sell? We could then end up right back to where we started with an undesirable owner, all the hard work in vain and a perhaps once in a lifetime opportunity missed. Iím sorry but as far as this particular issue goes i believe the club should be majority fan owned with a cap or limitation on the amount of shares an individual or corporate body can own. Therefore there is some protection against this scenario occurring. Genuine question DC, given your preferred option is a 25% stake how would you respond to someone with my fears to alleviate these concerns?


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: DrillingCobbler on January 25, 2019, 08:36:56 am
some good points DC but are you not concerned that with your preferred proposal the club remains vulnerable to be taken over by another undesirable owner? If the majority shareholding is with a corporation, individual or small group and collective you are at their mercy. They could be morally upstanding such as yourself prepared to run the club on a non profit basis. However if they fall on hard times or are victim to an unforeseen set of circumstances they may be forced to sell? We could then end up right back to where we started with an undesirable owner, all the hard work in vain and a perhaps once in a lifetime opportunity missed. Iím sorry but as far as this particular issue goes i believe the club should be majority fan owned with a cap or limitation on the amount of shares an individual or corporate body can own. Therefore there is some protection against this scenario occurring. Genuine question DC, given your preferred option is a 25% stake how would you respond to someone with my fears to alleviate these concerns?

I cant basically!

The way I look at it, every model has dangers associated with it. For example, full ownership could mean that 'hard times' could occur for a whole multitude of different reasons. The collapse of ITV digital, wasn't foreseen and was the reason many clubs struggled for a period when it happened. For example, if we had been 100% fan owned back then, and budgeted sensibly based on expected income etc...we'd have had no 'back stop' (sorry  ;D ). Having an investor/s within such a model, what happens if said investor/s pulled out/died and left their shares to an undesirable person?

The challenge with football is that it is absolutely impossible to predict future income. Whilst to compete you have to dish out long contracts, pay out unexpected compensation (when a manager is sacked/Kasim cases!), sponsor pulls out/goes bust. Theres loads.

Wycombe have just agreed to sell up to private investors (according to their website - trust one), now that was because they spent money which they shouldn't have done and hit cash flow problems and had to borrow money. And thats on the back of them being successful, getting promoted, increasing their income etc.

Like I say, there is no model that goes without risks associated. I just struggle to see how we can entice big time investors (not that we have ever had any!!!) to take NTFC to where we all want it to be with a 51%-100% model. I may be wrong, we (Trust) have a working group on the case at the time, actively looking at all of the options. Im fully, 100% behind that in my Trust capacity. Like I say, Im not for or against any particular model at this stage; Im very open minded about it.

Lets not forget though that back in the day, we acquired a stake of 25% and that worked well for a while and from my perspective, it was the happiest time of being a Cobbler I have experienced. Culminating in our early success under Atkins. Soon after though, it became difficult as that stake was reduced, the directors at the time were less welcoming to fans involvement at board level and the move back to (essentially) full private ownership started again.

In an idealistic world, Id love to see the FA give a 5 year time line to make all clubs fan owned. So each and every club has a level playing field to operate in. But in the present, whatever model we try and go with, we need to factor in the financial challenges of operating a football club where income is so unpredictable.

Liking this discussion; its a big positive at the moment. I sincerely hope that in 12 months time we can look back at this time and view KT's legacy of 'saving us/steadying the ship' which at the time was the case. They put their half a million quid in and kept us going, and we won the title. Since then though, it has been nothing short of doom and gloom, faceless Chinese 'investors', relegation, a succession of managers, countless players only here for the lengthy lucrative contracts they were given and a decaying stadium/infrastructure. Sorry to go off piste!



Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Melbourne Cobbler on January 25, 2019, 13:39:29 pm
I cant basically!

The way I look at it, every model has dangers associated with it. For example, full ownership could mean that 'hard times' could occur for a whole multitude of different reasons. The collapse of ITV digital, wasn't foreseen and was the reason many clubs struggled for a period when it happened. For example, if we had been 100% fan owned back then, and budgeted sensibly based on expected income etc...we'd have had no 'back stop' (sorry  ;D ). Having an investor/s within such a model, what happens if said investor/s pulled out/died and left their shares to an undesirable person?

The challenge with football is that it is absolutely impossible to predict future income. Whilst to compete you have to dish out long contracts, pay out unexpected compensation (when a manager is sacked/Kasim cases!), sponsor pulls out/goes bust. Theres loads.

Wycombe have just agreed to sell up to private investors (according to their website - trust one), now that was because they spent money which they shouldn't have done and hit cash flow problems and had to borrow money. And thats on the back of them being successful, getting promoted, increasing their income etc.

Like I say, there is no model that goes without risks associated. I just struggle to see how we can entice big time investors (not that we have ever had any!!!) to take NTFC to where we all want it to be with a 51%-100% model. I may be wrong, we (Trust) have a working group on the case at the time, actively looking at all of the options. Im fully, 100% behind that in my Trust capacity. Like I say, Im not for or against any particular model at this stage; Im very open minded about it.

Lets not forget though that back in the day, we acquired a stake of 25% and that worked well for a while and from my perspective, it was the happiest time of being a Cobbler I have experienced. Culminating in our early success under Atkins. Soon after though, it became difficult as that stake was reduced, the directors at the time were less welcoming to fans involvement at board level and the move back to (essentially) full private ownership started again.

In an idealistic world, Id love to see the FA give a 5 year time line to make all clubs fan owned. So each and every club has a level playing field to operate in. But in the present, whatever model we try and go with, we need to factor in the financial challenges of operating a football club where income is so unpredictable.

Liking this discussion; its a big positive at the moment. I sincerely hope that in 12 months time we can look back at this time and view KT's legacy of 'saving us/steadying the ship' which at the time was the case. They put their half a million quid in and kept us going, and we won the title. Since then though, it has been nothing short of doom and gloom, faceless Chinese 'investors', relegation, a succession of managers, countless players only here for the lengthy lucrative contracts they were given and a decaying stadium/infrastructure. Sorry to go off piste!


Excellently put DC, some very valid points raised. I agree that the biggest issue is funding and has been my major concern with majority fan ownership from the start. However there is no getting away from the fact that the reason we are here is because of years of being subjected to the current ownership type of structure. If we were to go down a route that allows us to return to this position it makes the whole exercise futile. Therefore despite the considerable risks and drawbacks I feel it can be the only realistic course for us as a collective. That being said I do understand and respect the points you raise and it would be stupid not to aknowledge the dangers.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Grove on January 25, 2019, 17:11:09 pm
Absolutely nothing to convince me to back such a coup.
Does anyone know the exact running costs for a League 2 side, just to tread water for infinity


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: BedsCobb on January 25, 2019, 19:13:01 pm
Absolutely nothing to convince me to back such a coup.
Does anyone know the exact running costs for a League 2 side, just to tread water for infinity
Ask our current owners they've been doing it for over 3 years now.
Unless the club is being run to fully maximise its earning potential, which it has been falling well short on these past 20 years it'll always struggle.
A fan run club with help from local buisneses and local well wishers would without a shadow of doubt change this over night.
Thomas's ntfc or The public and business community of Northampton and county's NTFC,
Two entirely different organisations, with very differering
 hopes for our clubs long term future.
 Change is desperately needed.




Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: guest2724 on January 26, 2019, 07:10:01 am
I think that there are some very interesting posts on here and I would agree with The Vintage Cobbler that people need to approach this with an open mind.

The fundamental issue has to be money - if you read the recent Judges report you will see that the club has been operated at a significant loss for almost all of the last 15 years. In common with most football clubs, it has relied upon "external shareholder support". The Cardozas put in £6m to keep the club afloat over this period.

I haven't looked at the accounts since 2015 in detail but I would think that the present owners have had to support the club on similar lines.

If we take the average loss, £500,000 or so, this is an enormous amount of money to turn around from greater commercial income streams. What playing squad would you have left if you had to take this off the wages bill?

But more importantly, if the club was supporter owned, it would have to set prudent and risk averse budgets. Crudely, I think this would equate to a wages bill about 50% of what it is now before any extra income is factored in.

Money alone does not make a successful club - so it would be wrong for me to argue that because a stand alone supporter owned club would have a much lower playing budget we would be doomed. BUT, supporters would have to accept that the objectives of the club would be different from those currently. Now, apart from a few masochists, we all want promotion and success.

For example, a way to operate on lower budgets could be to prioritise youth and local players. It would truly be a community club..a miniature Athletic Bilbao, where nearly all the players are Basques..

To achieve any type of supporter owned/led club will need a very clearly defined strategic approach where the objectives are defined, supported widely and are realistic.






Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: DrillingCobbler on January 26, 2019, 07:34:38 am
I think that there are some very interesting posts on here and I would agree with The Vintage Cobbler that people need to approach this with an open mind.

The fundamental issue has to be money - if you read the recent Judges report you will see that the club has been operated at a significant loss for almost all of the last 15 years. In common with most football clubs, it has relied upon "external shareholder support". The Cardozas put in £6m to keep the club afloat over this period.

I haven't looked at the accounts since 2015 in detail but I would think that the present owners have had to support the club on similar lines.

If we take the average loss, £500,000 or so, this is an enormous amount of money to turn around from greater commercial income streams. What playing squad would you have left if you had to take this off the wages bill?

But more importantly, if the club was supporter owned, it would have to set prudent and risk averse budgets. Crudely, I think this would equate to a wages bill about 50% of what it is now before any extra income is factored in.

Money alone does not make a successful club - so it would be wrong for me to argue that because a stand alone supporter owned club would have a much lower playing budget we would be doomed. BUT, supporters would have to accept that the objectives of the club would be different from those currently. Now, apart from a few masochists, we all want promotion and success.

For example, a way to operate on lower budgets could be to prioritise youth and local players. It would truly be a community club..a miniature Athletic Bilbao, where nearly all the players are Basques..

To achieve any type of supporter owned/led club will need a very clearly defined strategic approach where the objectives are defined, supported widely and are realistic.






This echo's my outlook on it...unless the model includes someone with considerable funds to plug the gaps and help kick us on.

Im not going to profess to knowing anywhere near the exact numbers involved, but Id guess that we could run on a playing budget of around 1.2 million 'relatively risk free'. With that amount, you cant afford any hangers on, any expensive permanently injured players, or any 'Kasims'. It all has to click; like it did for Accrington last season. Like you've intimated, you'd also need 3 or 4 gems from the academy playing well for the first team on low wages to help boost up the quality that you cant buy in for peanuts.

From my understanding, theres a handful of clubs at this level that operate with wage budgets under a million quid a season. So I've no doubt that financially we could hold our own, BUT it wouldn't enable us to make any marquee signings.

That said; if the plan involved (gonna sound like Beds here) building the club up and infrastructure up over say a 5 year period to boost the overall income etc, if that meant long term we'd have a much better football club than we do now...surely thats worth looking into in some depth!

Lets face it. The current board have wasted at least 2 million quid in wages over the last 2 seasons that have got us no where, that money could have been spent elsewhere and we'd be no worse off in terms of league position! Hindsight of course.

It also worth noting that in the latter years, Big Dave ran the club pretty much on an even keel financially, and that was paying for 'personal stuff' as well so that proves it could be done. Whether that means additional stuff, like sorting out the East Stand, could be achieved is open to debate at this point.

What I believe the vast majority of us want though is a proper voice in the board room. Moving forward. A proper say, some decent influence into decisions made by the football club. So we have common ground amongst us. I do accept theres a large minority of fans who want to remain 90% plus privately owned at this point,  but that has got us absolutely no where and nearly made us go bust on three occasions during the last 30 years or so. And a decaying stadium/infrastructure that has had pretty much zero TLC during that entire time. Its hard to reason with the strongest of opposition to the idea, a bit like a Tory councillor knocking on doors in Moss Side Manchester looking to drum up votes! We will still try though!  ;D


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: guest2724 on January 26, 2019, 08:11:18 am
Just briefly about the finances, nobody outside the club knows the income and expenditure position. For the last published accounts (until June 2017) the loss is reported as £240,000. It's certainly true that under DC the club stemmed it's losses.

But I suppose my real point, lost in my waffle, is that a supporter owned club can never afford to get it wrong financially because they would have no where to go to raise the funds.

Now this isn't impossible to deal with in terms of budgeting: basically on day 1 the club would need 12 months cash flow in the bank and a budget set to make a small surplus which would be continually updated to take account of changes in forecast income and expenditure.

I think it can be done, I just think the capital required is higher than most people anticipate the budget is probably going to have to be smaller.

To ensure long-term survival, these basic "fiscal rules" can be written into the club's articles and memorandum of association.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Melbourne Cobbler on January 26, 2019, 09:01:02 am
This echo's my outlook on it...unless the model includes someone with considerable funds to plug the gaps and help kick us on.

Im not going to profess to knowing anywhere near the exact numbers involved, but Id guess that we could run on a playing budget of around 1.2 million 'relatively risk free'. With that amount, you cant afford any hangers on, any expensive permanently injured players, or any 'Kasims'. It all has to click; like it did for Accrington last season. Like you've intimated, you'd also need 3 or 4 gems from the academy playing well for the first team on low wages to help boost up the quality that you cant buy in for peanuts.

From my understanding, theres a handful of clubs at this level that operate with wage budgets under a million quid a season. So I've no doubt that financially we could hold our own, BUT it wouldn't enable us to make any marquee signings.

That said; if the plan involved (gonna sound like Beds here) building the club up and infrastructure up over say a 5 year period to boost the overall income etc, if that meant long term we'd have a much better football club than we do now...surely thats worth looking into in some depth!

Lets face it. The current board have wasted at least 2 million quid in wages over the last 2 seasons that have got us no where, that money could have been spent elsewhere and we'd be no worse off in terms of league position! Hindsight of course.

It also worth noting that in the latter years, Big Dave ran the club pretty much on an even keel financially, and that was paying for 'personal stuff' as well so that proves it could be done. Whether that means additional stuff, like sorting out the East Stand, could be achieved is open to debate at this point.

What I believe the vast majority of us want though is a proper voice in the board room. Moving forward. A proper say, some decent influence into decisions made by the football club. So we have common ground amongst us. I do accept theres a large minority of fans who want to remain 90% plus privately owned at this point,  but that has got us absolutely no where and nearly made us go bust on three occasions during the last 30 years or so. And a decaying stadium/infrastructure that has had pretty much zero TLC during that entire time. Its hard to reason with the strongest of opposition to the idea, a bit like a Tory councillor knocking on doors in Moss Side Manchester looking to drum up votes! We will still try though!  ;D
My blind estimate was that you would need to raise between 14 and 17 million for that very reason. Thatvestimation didnít go down as well as Iíd hoped if I am honest. I must admit though my evaluation was pretty much in line with yours. My guess is that amount would support the club for 5 - 7 years, fund a reasonable level of redevelopment and support the manager in the transfer market. After that period it would need to be self sustaining and that would immediately put it in a significant minority outside the top 2 divisions. Somewhat of a challenge to say the least. At this point in time I honestly believe we would get nowhere near that figure, but for me establishing what funding we could raise would be the very first stage in the process. Once that figure has been ascertained then the business plan and structure would follow to suit. I.e cut your cloth accordingly. However, no romance with no finance as the song goes. At least thatís my view.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: BedsCobb on January 26, 2019, 11:27:07 am
Cardoza didn't put £6m into the club, even he knew that kind of  investment would be put to better use by improving the decrepit infrastructure to make the club more self sufficient.
Most of the figures bandied about are based on the very low current level of turnover of a poorly performing L2 side or one struggling in L1 unable to maximise its earning potential.
Both Thomas and Cardoza were not interested in the long term financial  health of a club they wouldn't be part of.
But saying that near on 20 years later we still find ourselves stuck in the starting blocks watching all others progress to some degree.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Melbourne Cobbler on January 26, 2019, 14:29:27 pm
Cardoza didn't put £6m into the club, even he knew that kind of  investment would be put to better use by improving the decrepit infrastructure to make the club more self sufficient.
Most of the figures bandied about are based on the very low current level of turnover of a poorly performing L2 side or one struggling in L1 unable to maximise its earning potential.
Both Thomas and Cardoza were not interested in the long term financial  health of a club they wouldn't be part of.
But saying that near on 20 years later we still find ourselves stuck in the starting blocks watching all others progress to some degree.
Beds, 2 things, it is my understanding that according to the summing up of HHJ Simon Barker QC 6 million is exactly what the Cardozas put into the club? In fact that was at the heart of the case as far as I could tell. Apparently thatís roughly what they lost over their tenure? Secondly itís all irrelevant because I have a feeling your predictions about what is feasible are about to come under the scrutiny of some individuals qualified to make an informed judgment on the subject. Perhaps everything you have claimed and stated as achievable will come to fruition and I will be eating a large slice of humble pie? Anyway our new bloke has just scored so I canít stop to chat.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: meccanostand on January 27, 2019, 09:45:57 am
NTFC Trust community ownership mission statement and launch of Project Proud To Be here. Public meeting being organised. You can download the full statement via the link.

https://nenequirer.com/2019/01/24/cobblers-supporters-trust-launches-project-proud-to-be/ (https://nenequirer.com/2019/01/24/cobblers-supporters-trust-launches-project-proud-to-be/)


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: BackOfTheNet on January 27, 2019, 11:01:21 am
(https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/375/cpsprodpb/0C6A/production/_85487130_citizensmith_bbc.jpg)

Viva la Cobblers!


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: everbrite on January 27, 2019, 11:25:36 am
(https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/375/cpsprodpb/0C6A/production/_85487130_citizensmith_bbc.jpg)

Viva la Cobblers!

Love It!


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: meccanostand on January 28, 2019, 07:11:55 am
Notts County put up for sale yesterday. Going to need a shedload of Arab Sheikh's to turn up to take all the EFL clubs actively up for sale to the promised land of the Premier League.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: southofthecounty on January 28, 2019, 08:42:33 am
Notts County put up for sale yesterday. Going to need a shedload of Arab Sheikh's to turn up to take all the EFL clubs actively up for sale to the promised land of the Premier League.
I'm surprised no cash rich ex Prem pros have ever purchased a league club as a vanity project.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: meccanostand on January 28, 2019, 09:32:09 am
I'm surprised no cash rich ex Prem pros have ever purchased a league club as a vanity project.

Salford the nearest example.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Terryfenwickatemyhamster on January 28, 2019, 16:57:26 pm
This echo's my outlook on it...unless the model includes someone with considerable funds to plug the gaps and help kick us on.



So how is it fan owned then Shane?


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: guest3230 on January 28, 2019, 17:02:39 pm
So how is it fan owned then Shane?

Its not!


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Terryfenwickatemyhamster on January 28, 2019, 17:04:32 pm
Its not!

I know...  ;D



Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: guest3230 on January 28, 2019, 17:32:47 pm
I know...  ;D



I know you know  ;D


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: ntfclad on January 28, 2019, 17:33:51 pm
NTFC Trust community ownership mission statement and launch of Project Proud To Be here. Public meeting being organised. You can download the full statement via the link.

https://nenequirer.com/2019/01/24/cobblers-supporters-trust-launches-project-proud-to-be/ (https://nenequirer.com/2019/01/24/cobblers-supporters-trust-launches-project-proud-to-be/)

Good statement but means **** all in practise. Go and start the Phoenix club you were so desperate for 3 years ago.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: meccanostand on January 28, 2019, 17:58:41 pm
Good statement but means **** all in practise. Go and start the Phoenix club you were so desperate for 3 years ago.

Haha nice try. There were loads of ideas knocking about at the time at the trust crisis meeting and i wasnt even the one pushing a phoenix club as random will tell you. Would a pheonix club have been a realistic option if the club was to be lumbered with a £10.25 ++ million debt plus an unfinished stand. Yeah probably and that was the crisis we were dealing with at the time.



Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Vintage Cobbler on January 28, 2019, 18:34:05 pm
Its not!

Perhaps from what is being said it might be described potentially as a Joint Venture Partnership?  But first let the Trust work on the business model and the possibilities and then you may comment sensibly.  Before that happens I think some of you are jumping the gun.

PS Doing well aren't we on and off the pitch under the present ownership structure?


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: guest3230 on January 28, 2019, 19:14:09 pm
Perhaps from what is being said it might be described potentially as a Joint Venture Partnership?  But first let the Trust work on the business model and the possibilities and then you may comment sensibly.  Before that happens I think some of you are jumping the gun.

PS Doing well aren't we on and off the pitch under the present ownership structure?

On what basis should we trust the trust to do a good job? Playing devils advocate a bit here btw...

Doing fine off the pitch, aren't we?


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Vintage Cobbler on January 28, 2019, 19:27:19 pm
As I keep commenting, don't get ahead of yourself. See what the Trust comes up with and then, by all means, comment. 


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: guest3230 on January 28, 2019, 19:33:56 pm
As I keep commenting, don't get ahead of yourself. See what the Trust comes up with and then, by all means, comment. 

A fair argument but what about those on your side of the argument that are not doing that?


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Vintage Cobbler on January 28, 2019, 19:53:15 pm
I speak for myself only and, yes, I think we should all keep our powder dry until there is some detail known.  The we can all attend the Trust meeting and express our views.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Terryfenwickatemyhamster on January 28, 2019, 22:46:27 pm
I speak for myself only and, yes, I think we should all keep our powder dry until there is some detail known.  The we can all attend the Trust meeting and express our views.

I think we are keeping our powder dry. Thereís no doubt about that


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: MCHammer on January 29, 2019, 01:18:58 am
Let's hope it is an open and honest debate from all involved.  There are definitely positives to fan ownership but let's be honest about the challenges it poses and what the real long term plan is.

There are definitely some in favour who have a very idealistic way of viewing the way football clubs and football in general should be run without recognising reality.

Let's not just trot out examples like Wycombe by simply looking at the league position compared to ours.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: BedsCobb on January 29, 2019, 07:48:23 am
Let's hope it is an open and honest debate from all involved.  There are definitely positives to fan ownership but let's be honest about the challenges it poses and what the real long term plan is.

There are definitely some in favour who have a very idealistic way of viewing the way football clubs and football in general should be run without recognising reality.

Let's not just trot out examples like Wycombe by simply looking at the league position compared to ours.
Have the last near on 20 years been idealistic,
With the club being run in an ideal view of how a football club with a 300,000 catchment should be run?
The answers no, so major changes to the set up is long overdue and needed.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: meccanostand on January 29, 2019, 08:03:02 am
Let's hope it is an open and honest debate from all involved.  There are definitely positives to fan ownership but let's be honest about the challenges it poses and what the real long term plan is.

There are definitely some in favour who have a very idealistic way of viewing the way football clubs and football in general should be run without recognising reality.

Let's not just trot out examples like Wycombe by simply looking at the league position compared to ours.


Some good points there.

Fan-ownership is probably not the best term unless a 100% model is adopted. Community ownership is probably a better fit for models that might involve the local business community and with at least 11 EFL clubs actively up for sale we might not be the only club looking at it.

Idealistic views can also be said to cover those who believe that private owners gift the club money at will and/or that there is a billionaire coming to take us to the Premier League. Those 2 are pretty prevalent.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Terryfenwickatemyhamster on January 29, 2019, 10:16:59 am
Can we just clear up one thing here.. As far as I am aware THERE IS NO FAN OWNERSHIP ON THE HORIZON. So let's not call it that.



Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: guest3230 on January 29, 2019, 10:21:49 am
Can we just clear up one thing here.. As far as I am aware THERE IS NO FAN OWNERSHIP ON THE HORIZON. So let's not call it that.



Whaaaaaaat!!
 ;D


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: MCHammer on January 29, 2019, 12:31:15 pm
Fan-ownership is probably not the best term unless a 100% model is adopted. Community ownership is probably a better fit for models that might involve the local business community and with at least 11 EFL clubs actively up for sale we might not be the only club looking at it.

Can you expand on what you mean by community ownership as opposed to fan ownership and how local business fit in to a community model such as that.  Also are there any examples of where this is happening already in this format?

Idealistic views can also be said to cover those who believe that private owners gift the club money at will and/or that there is a billionaire coming to take us to the Premier League. Those 2 are pretty prevalent.

In fairness there are more examples of that being the reality than some of the other proposals currently being made.

What I meant in my original point was that there are many people like yourself who believe football is broken and should be much different.  Billionaire owners, Sky money, Premier League, real fans priced out and so on.  All of which I agree with you and I think most also do.  However that is the reality even at lower levels for all clubs.  You can attempt to change how your club is run but you won't be changing the environment it exists in and there are plenty of harsh realities of what that means for the future.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: meccanostand on January 29, 2019, 12:38:25 pm
Can you expand on what you mean by community ownership as opposed to fan ownership and how local business fit in to a community model such as that.  Also are there any examples of where this is happening already in this format?

In fairness there are more examples of that being the reality than some of the other proposals currently being made.

What I meant in my original point was that there are many people like yourself who believe football is broken and should be much different.  Billionaire owners, Sky money, Premier League, real fans priced out and so on.  All of which I agree with you and I think most also do.  However that is the reality even at lower levels for all clubs.  You can attempt to change how your club is run but you won't be changing the environment it exists in and there are plenty of harsh realities of what that means for the future.

Sorry mate I'm not going to preempt the meeting. That is for the Trust to present. I will be taking a look at community ownership at various clubs though via the NeneQuirer and will forward you it though. Cheers.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: MCHammer on January 29, 2019, 13:34:40 pm
Sorry mate I'm not going to preempt the meeting. That is for the Trust to present. I will be taking a look at community ownership at various clubs though via the NeneQuirer and will forward you it though. Cheers.

Strange answer.  Does this need to be added to my So Many Secrets thread?

I called it "Fan Ownership" YOU said "It's more Community Ownership alongside local business".  To paraphrase I simply asked you to elaborate on what that meant and what the differences are.  I'm not asking you to preempt any meeting and even if I did why would that be so bad in this open and honest world we are moving towards?

If you don't know the answer that's fine.  If you do what would be the problem in helping others understand?


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: barton cobbler on January 29, 2019, 13:59:30 pm
I'd like to think, in the ideal world, we would all like a club owned and run by a community of fans and business people who are Northampton people at heart. So we have a club that is run for the benefit of the supporters and not run with the idea of lining some peoples pockets.
     Has anyone got a problem with this? If not, then that's what we should all be pushing for.
   


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: BackOfTheNet on January 29, 2019, 14:25:24 pm
I'd like to think, in the ideal world, we would all like a club owned and run by a community of fans and business people who are Northampton people at heart. So we have a club that is run for the benefit of the supporters and not run with the idea of lining some peoples pockets.
     Has anyone got a problem with this? If not, then that's what we should all be pushing for.
   

We're back to idealism vs realism again though, aren't we? It's a bit like saying I wanted to buy a house so I went to a bank and got a mortgage. The thing is, that bank have no interest in me, my house or my family, they just want to make a profit out of me so, having thought about it, I now wish I'd borrowed from friends and family instead.

The fact is though, your family and friends probably wouldn't have the means or the generosity to loan you the money you needed so you turned to the bank because it was a lot easier and they were willing to help, but only in return for a profit because no, funnily enough they are a business and did indeed only help you out because they saw a business opportunity.

You can agonise over it all you like, but you are now morally and legally obliged to let the bank make the profit they hoped to make out of you because, at the end of the day, you now have the house you wanted.

If you go back through that and replace "house" with "football club", "friends and family" with "supporters" and "bank" with "KT and DB" and that's the way I see the situation. You might not like it, but that's where we are.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: clarkeysntfc on January 29, 2019, 14:59:09 pm
I'd like to think, in the ideal world, we would all like a club owned and run by a community of fans and business people who are Northampton people at heart. So we have a club that is run for the benefit of the supporters and not run with the idea of lining some peoples pockets.
     Has anyone got a problem with this? If not, then that's what we should all be pushing for.
   

Are you saying that the current board are in it to line their pockets?


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: tcobb on January 29, 2019, 15:19:07 pm
Barton, you state that all the fans would like a club that is owned and run by a community of fans and business people from Northampton. Im not from Northampton neither am i keen on fan ownership, so no, your statement is incorrect.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: barton cobbler on January 29, 2019, 15:28:09 pm
So you don't think there would be enough people willing to back a local consortium to buy NTFC? I think there would be if the selling price reflects what you are buying, which is a company with very few assets, NTFC don't own the stadium or training ground and very few players of any value.
     We shall see


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: barton cobbler on January 29, 2019, 15:35:39 pm
Barton, you state that all the fans would like a club that is owned and run by a community of fans and business people from Northampton. Im not from Northampton neither am i keen on fan ownership, so no, your statement is incorrect.
OK , but you haven't given a reason why. Answer this one question, would you rather NTFC be owned by a group that put the needs of the club first and foremost or owned by  private individuals who are looking to make money out of NTFC?
PS I said "Northampton people at heart" not "from Northampton", I don't live in Northampton either.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Melbourne Cobbler on January 29, 2019, 15:56:15 pm
Donít over complicate this, itís really quite simple. There are 3 options on the table, take your pick. Majority fan owned, minority fan owned, left alone. Make your choice, if there is enough passion and support for a particular option then look at taking it to the next stage. If not, option 3 it is? Deal with this in manageable chunks or it will be paralysis by analysis.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Terryfenwickatemyhamster on January 29, 2019, 16:53:05 pm
Donít over complicate this, itís really quite simple. There are 3 options on the table, take your pick. Majority fan owned, minority fan owned, left alone. Make your choice, if there is enough passion and support for a particular option then look at taking it to the next stage. If not, option 3 it is? Deal with this in manageable chunks or it will be paralysis by analysis.

There are no options on the table if you don't meet the asking price.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: tcobb on January 29, 2019, 17:19:35 pm
A Lot of people seem to think the asking price is £1, they might be in for a bit of a shock.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: clarkeysntfc on January 29, 2019, 17:25:04 pm
OK , but you haven't given a reason why. Answer this one question, would you rather NTFC be owned by a group that put the needs of the club first and foremost or owned by  private individuals who are looking to make money out of NTFC?
PS I said "Northampton people at heart" not "from Northampton", I don't live in Northampton either.

Have you got any evidence that our owners are looking to make money from NTFC and are not placing the club's needs first?


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: FezNTFC on January 29, 2019, 17:46:27 pm
Have you got any evidence that our owners are looking to make money from NTFC and are not placing the club's needs first?
Barton's post doesn't refer to either Kelvin Thomas or David Bower does it? To me it appears that he's posing a hypothetical question to a fellow poster.



Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: guest3230 on January 29, 2019, 17:48:26 pm
Barton's post doesn't refer to either Kelvin Thomas or David Bower does it? To me it appears that he's posing a hypothetical question to a fellow poster.



 :D


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: FezNTFC on January 29, 2019, 17:49:10 pm
:D
We can all play lawyer if we want ;D


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: clarkeysntfc on January 29, 2019, 17:52:22 pm
Barton's post doesn't refer to either Kelvin Thomas or David Bower does it? To me it appears that he's posing a hypothetical question to a fellow poster.



So fan ownership is hypothetically better because hypothetically we may have a private owner who hypothetically might be taking money out of the club for some hypotherical personal benefit, when hypothetically a fan / community owned club would not face this issue?

Just want to clarify.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: guest3230 on January 29, 2019, 17:52:42 pm
We can all play lawyer if we want ;D

Ha! Enjoyed this.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Deepcut Cobbler on January 29, 2019, 18:09:10 pm
A pedantic argument/discussion, shall I get my popcorn?


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Grove on January 29, 2019, 19:46:47 pm
I see moves ahead for a 'hostile bid' for a peynd


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Melbourne Cobbler on January 29, 2019, 22:15:06 pm
There are no options on the table if you don't meet the asking price.
Absolutely Hammy, however find out what you want, then work on how and if you can get it in that order. Like I said manageable chunks. If fan owned is the preferred option it wouldnt hurt to establish how much each individual would be prepared to invest in shareholdingís from £0 up to whatever their maximum budget would allow? It would be necessary to keep in mind that saying it is one thing, obviously doing it is completely another proposition. However it would also be necessary to have some sort of indicator to work with. If the figure is deemed realistic in terms of feasibility (who and how this is decided is a point of debate in itself) you move forward to the next stage, if it isnít you donít, simple. I say simple, the next stage in my view would be decidedly more complicated.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: meccanostand on February 01, 2019, 11:30:12 am
Interesting update here from Kelvin Thomas on various things including positive dialogue on the Trust's Community Ownership discussion. Good to see the club looking at it with an open mind. Real chance to drive the club forwards incorporating the Trust's Project Proud To Be and possibly doubly so with the board's redevelopment plans.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=Zx1RW55TNU8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=Zx1RW55TNU8)


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: MCHammer on February 01, 2019, 12:39:36 pm
Interesting update here from Kelvin Thomas on various things including positive dialogue on the Trust's Community Ownership discussion. Good to see the club looking at it with an open mind. Real chance to drive the club forwards incorporating the Trust's Project Proud To Be and possibly doubly so with the board's redevelopment plans.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=Zx1RW55TNU8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=Zx1RW55TNU8)

Are you suggesting the Trust could work in a community ownership with KT and his development plans?


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: random on February 01, 2019, 13:57:48 pm
Working with KT could be a win-win but his history re fans would suggest not possible


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: BedsCobb on February 01, 2019, 16:40:02 pm
Working with KT could be a win-win but his history re fans would suggest not possible

KT is only a small investor and todate hasn't shown or said anything to suggest he has the want or capability or knowhow to build up a football club.
Also him having said he needs to spend more time at home the US, it might be better for him to take over at Florida alligators fc.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Terryfenwickatemyhamster on February 01, 2019, 22:05:52 pm
Working with KT could be a win-win but his history re fans would suggest not possible


What history is that...?


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: meccanostand on February 03, 2019, 22:19:56 pm
Trust's community ownership investigation to move to public meeting stage.

https://twitter.com/ntfc_trust/status/1092130833043992577 (https://twitter.com/ntfc_trust/status/1092130833043992577)


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: tcobb on February 04, 2019, 08:44:02 am
The statement uses the phrase "we" an awful lot.
Is "we" the Trust board ? Is is "we" the supporters the Trust represents ?


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: tcobb on February 04, 2019, 10:14:21 am
Wandering Cobbler, very good summary there. Whilst I agree that everybody is entitled to their own opinion , you are quite wide of the mark with your opening statement. A lot of people do not prefer a Club to be owned by the fans.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: guest2724 on February 04, 2019, 12:23:46 pm
I would be interested TC in why you think that this might be the case?


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Deepcut Cobbler on February 04, 2019, 12:39:50 pm
I would be interested TC in why you think that this might be the case?

Conversely, why are you 'sure' that it isn't?


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: meccanostand on February 04, 2019, 12:51:35 pm
https://twitter.com/TeynEdition/status/1087440903751507970 (https://twitter.com/TeynEdition/status/1087440903751507970)

In any case, would think that most fans would wait and make an informed decision rather than jumping the gun prematurely.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Battery Man on February 04, 2019, 12:52:04 pm
I think the only thing putting people off backing a fan owned club is the uncertainty on financing the club, however, we have seen many times over the last 35 to 40 years that having a private owner in no way means a club is securely and well financed. I think fan ownership is certainly worth looking at in some depth, as if the finances can be put in place at least to ensure we are in no worse a position than now then why not. At least we would know the owners only wants whats best for the club.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: BedsCobb on February 04, 2019, 13:16:16 pm
The only reason that people could oppose the concept of 'community ownership' is a financial one surely? All things being equal, I'm sure almost every football supporter in the world would prefer their club to be owned by supporters rather than individuals..

It is a very legitimate argument that there are very few successful fan/community ownership models that have worked in the long run in the UK. However, this doesn't mean that it couldn't work for the cobblers...each club's circumstances are different, the 'assets' of each club are different and the skills and expertise of the supporters are different.

I can't see why everybody shouldn't welcome the Trust's exploration of options. It is encouraging that the present owners are prepared to at least talk to the supporters trust. You can think about a huge number of clubs where supporters are completely cut out of any dialogue with the club. Some club owners have even resorted to legal action for defamation against supporters who post adverse comments on notice boards etc.

Whatever you might think of the present owners, they deserve quite a lot of credit for their openness..

The other things about the club is the fact that it has to be run as a business. It has two ways of operating: it either operates at a loss that requires financial support from its owners or it breaks even/makes a profit and doesn't need that financial support.

Historically, since the turn of 2000, the club has operated at a loss almost every year - in total it lost £6m under the Cardoza's (Im not quite sure why someone queried this figure the other day) and for the last published accounts the club lost about £250,000. The next accounts are due at the end of March but in KT's interview he alludes to making a loss this year as well.

Therefore, in any credible community owned club there will have to be a recognition of the fact that the club is not currently financially self sustaining and hasn't been largely for many years - this is a FACT!

For all of the claims about future revenue streams and the good ideas on here, the reality is the club needs more resources or to cut its expenditure. But even cutting expenditure is not enough - were the club to ever be 100% supporter owned no bank would ever support this model without a substantial cash reserve in case the club got into financial difficulties - this again is fact.

Therefore, the idea of a hybrid ownership model makes sense because the 'larger private owners' might be the 'lenders of the last resort' in case of difficulty, but they in turn will want control..who would invest, say £50,000 each, into a club where the spending decisions are being made by other people?

Hence NBC's idea in 2013 that the club needed to be put onto a more sustainable financial footing (i.e to become profitable) by using the land around the East Stand. What happened next of course was a fiasco but the idea was very good even if the execution was very poor.

Now, KT and others have the chance to work with NBC and private developers to deliver on NBC's idea of 2013 - i.e. to use the land to generate profits to pay for the development of a ground and club that is financially sustainable.

There are a great number of issues around the basic concept and nobody outside NBC or the club know what the basis of the discussions currently are.What are NBCs objectives? How does KT see the future?

It is a very difficult situation: on the one hand NBC is an elected body and as council tax payers everybody has a right to know what is going on.

At the same time, the club and land around the East Stand is in private hands and why should private developers explain to the public what they are up to? Do you show your bank balance to the neighbours?

So in summary, I think the Supporters Trust is absolutely right to explore models of supporter and community ownership at this time. I hope that NBC and KT are in a position as soon as possible to explain their plans and the supporters and council tax payers van then evaluate them.

Now for three 3 points...


You can not claim to have lost £6m over 10 years because you are trading at 25% of your capabilities  due to very poor infrastructure , bad management and zero growth.
How much of  that £6m could've had us trading 50% up over several years of he sustained such losses?
For years we have tried to build teams that could achieve promotion out of league 2 but only to sell the back bone of the team for a fraction of there worth when Sixfields inadequacy kicks in.
With a supporters/ local buisneses working together with full understanding of the job in hand, all involved would soon see steady improvements in all the key areas that increase turnover, resulting in more breaking even than losses.
So KT has announced we expect to show a loss.
After 20 years trying to buck the trend of a well trod path, no one should really be surprised.  


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Manwork04 on February 04, 2019, 13:48:34 pm
Thomas isn't going to sell a 50% share to anyone that does not meet his valuation, currently about £2m.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: meccanostand on February 07, 2019, 10:55:05 am
Fan-owned Newport County through to FA Cup Round 5 at home to Man City. Team features ex-Cobbler Regan Poole.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-47143918 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-47143918)


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Melbourne Cobbler on February 07, 2019, 20:09:22 pm
I think the only thing putting people off backing a fan owned club is the uncertainty on financing the club, however, we have seen many times over the last 35 to 40 years that having a private owner in no way means a club is securely and well financed. I think fan ownership is certainly worth looking at in some depth, as if the finances can be put in place at least to ensure we are in no worse a position than now then why not. At least we would know the owners only wants whats best for the club.
Donít kid yourself, itís not the only thing. Along with a couple of other points the thing concerning me is that some of the individuals on here end up in a position of significant influence in the decision making process. I have visions of the board room being like scenes from the Mad Hatters tea party.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: FezNTFC on February 07, 2019, 20:18:07 pm
Donít kid yourself, itís not the only thing. Along with a couple of other points the thing concerning me is that some of the individuals on here end up in a position of significant influence in the decision making process. I have visions of the board room being like scenes from the Mad Hatters tea party.
To clarify again.

Another important thing to remember is that the current Trust board would not be running the show. They would bring in professionals to run the football club. No supporters owned club is run by the people who used to run the car boot sales or make the coffees on matchdays.

Add 'argue on the forum' to that list ;D


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Melbourne Cobbler on February 07, 2019, 20:41:35 pm
To clarify again.

Add 'argue on the forum' to that list ;D
To continue the row, who are the ďtheyĒ who bring in the professionals?


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: FezNTFC on February 07, 2019, 20:51:07 pm
To continue the row, who are the ďtheyĒ who bring in the professionals?
I don't know. We don't know what the model is yet or whether it would get to that stage.

It if was majority fan owned I assume the Trust board would bring someone in, most likely with the aid of Supporters Direct who would have plenty of contacts within that field.

If there's a hybrid model of fan ownership and a private individual or consortium, those individuals or groups would probably want some say on who runs the show.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Melbourne Cobbler on February 07, 2019, 20:54:49 pm
I don't know. We don't know what the model is yet or whether it would get to that stage.

It if was majority fan owned I assume the Trust board would bring someone in, most likely with the aid of Supporters Direct who would have plenty of contacts within that field.

If there's a hybrid model of fan ownership and a private individual or consortium, those individuals or groups would probably want some say on who runs the show.
Understood, so to repeat my original point, the thing concerning me is that some of the individuals on here end up in a position of significant influence in the decision making process. I have visions of the board room being like scenes from the Mad Hatters tea party. Get me a piece of chalk someone?


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Battery Man on February 07, 2019, 20:58:45 pm
Understood, so to repeat my original point, the thing concerning me is that some of the individuals on here end up in a position of significant influence in the decision making process. I have visions of the board room being like scenes from the Mad Hatters tea party. Get me a piece of chalk someone?

I do share your concerns on this. Letís see what the trust are proposing and I think after that we will see if the idea could work.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: FezNTFC on February 07, 2019, 21:02:50 pm
Understood, so to repeat my original point, the thing concerning me is that some of the individuals on here end up in a position of significant influence in the decision making process. I have visions of the board room being like scenes from the Mad Hatters tea party. Get me a piece of chalk someone?
I understood 'decision making process' to mean the running of the club itself, as you mentioned the boardroom. Hence my response.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Alfred on February 07, 2019, 21:06:19 pm
Fan-owned Newport County through to FA Cup Round 5 at home to Man City. Team features ex-Cobbler Regan Poole.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-47143918 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-47143918)

Interesting twist on the sustainability of fan owned Newport County,  the harsh reality of fan owned life ?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/44255428


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Melbourne Cobbler on February 07, 2019, 21:09:29 pm
I understood 'decision making process' to mean the running of the club itself, as you mentioned the boardroom. Hence my response.
No Fez, the decision making process is making all and any decisions regarding the formation, structure and running of the new club including recruitment. Joking aside my point is that someone is going to make or guide decisions surrounding these issues and I have no idea as to the caliber or quality of those individuals (although I have formed an opinion about some). Thatís fine until the opportunity to put in a few grand becomes a possibility, it adds a certain hesitation for me. I take your point in the context you make it though.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: tcobb on February 07, 2019, 21:26:42 pm
So even with their FA Cup success of this and last season, Newport are looking at having a minority fan ownership. Because of the losses they would have suffered and will need external investment.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Melbourne Cobbler on February 07, 2019, 21:35:22 pm
So even with their FA Cup success of this and last season, Newport are looking at having a minority fan ownership. Because of the losses they would have suffered and will need external investment.
Oh dear, now youíve done it. Stand by for references to catchment area, fans / local businesses in blissful partnership for the greater good and finances raised solely from food and beverage sales from the Mad Hatter himself? In an ironic twist of fate can I just add that Luton happens to be the home of The Hatters.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Melbourne Cobbler on February 07, 2019, 21:56:40 pm
Interesting twist on the sustainability of fan owned Newport County,  the harsh reality of fan owned life ?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/44255428
My take on this is that it is imperative that you raise enough finance to support the club in the medium term including a contingency for the unforeseen. As previously stated my blind opinion is 7 to 8 million from the fan base with 49% of the total value from corporate bodies in addition. It is difficult to convey the scale of achievement it would be to succeed with that proposal. Even then be under no illusion that there would still be significant risk attached. As I said, pure guesswork on my part, but if there isnít the appetite for a proposal along these lines then we are wasting our time. However, it is possible and the end result could be the answer to everything.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: meccanostand on February 08, 2019, 09:29:38 am
Interesting twist on the sustainability of fan owned Newport County,  the harsh reality of fan owned life ?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/44255428

That's an old story. They have made adjustments to put them on a more secure financial footing since then.

They also have rent issues that we don't have to deal with. the current board have put us on a good footing to explore community ownership. What's more we are in a position to cherry pick the best from the private and community owned models.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: meccanostand on February 08, 2019, 09:33:27 am
I don't know. We don't know what the model is yet or whether it would get to that stage.

It if was majority fan owned I assume the Trust board would bring someone in, most likely with the aid of Supporters Direct who would have plenty of contacts within that field.

If there's a hybrid model of fan ownership and a private individual or consortium, those individuals or groups would probably want some say on who runs the show.

Not much point discussing this yet as it's just abstract discussion without the models being presented.

Elections to the board would make the idea that cranks would get roles laughable. There are far more meritocratic systems available than the one that delivered Michael McRitchie Anthony and David Cardoza to positions of destructive and supreme influence.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Melbourne Cobbler on February 08, 2019, 10:13:00 am
Not much point discussing this yet as it's just abstract discussion without the models being presented.

Elections to the board would make the idea that cranks would get roles laughable. There are far more meritocratic systems available than the one that delivered Michael McRitchie Anthony and David Cardoza to positions of destructive and supreme influence.
Donít you believe it, people said that about Donald Trump. Iíve personally met people that sit on boards who shouldnít be trusted with a box of matches.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Alfred on February 08, 2019, 11:09:09 am
That's an old story. They have made adjustments to put them on a more secure financial footing since then.

But still relevant to the overall picture,  or are we not allowed a balance view.  The fact remains at that point in time fan ownership wasnt deemed sustainable,  sorry if this dosnt fit your agenda.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: BackOfTheNet on February 08, 2019, 11:21:01 am
Donít you believe it, people said that about Donald Trump. Iíve personally met people that sit on boards who shouldnít be trusted with a box of matches.

I've met people who sit on boards that I'm amazed can dress themselves in the morning, never mind be trusted with a box of matches. I bumped into one such person I'd worked with when he was visiting the next company I worked for. I'd just left my office and heard a banging sound coming from my right. I looked around and saw this imbecile's face pressed against the glass window in a door. He'd somehow managed to trap himself in the fire escape stairwell. I'm still not sure who was more surprised to see the other, me or him.

I probably should have let him out, really... ;D


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: meccanostand on February 08, 2019, 11:26:15 am
But still relevant to the overall picture,  or are we not allowed a balance view.  The fact remains at that point in time fan ownership wasnt deemed sustainable,  sorry if this dosnt fit your agenda.

Yeah of course relevant to the overall view but the Newport model and how it has been adjusted needs more analysis than a couple of lines on here.

The story you referenced is old and it's more functional to adopt a fluid approach to what is happening on the ground there.

In any case, Newport are just one model, you can't poo poo the whole idea of community ownership with reference to the Exiles. Also let's reference the profits and losses of the current NTFC administration for a rounded conversation.



Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: BedsCobb on February 08, 2019, 12:29:19 pm
Oh dear, now youíve done it. Stand by for references to catchment area, fans / local businesses in blissful partnership for the greater good and finances raised solely from food and beverage sales from the Mad Hatter himself? In an ironic twist of fate can I just add that Luton happens to be the home of The Hatters.
Stand by everything I said as a way to a means to getting our club moving in the right direction.
We cant continuously be held ransom to land acquirers who use the club as a way to a means that have zero interest in the clubs future well being beyond the sell on date.
Do we start a 4th season with these time wasters in charge?

Comparing Newport to Northampton is quite ironic as they are both the 2 worst supported teams in the football league.
But which of these 2 basket cases do you think will show some sustainable year on year growth first?


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Deepcut Cobbler on February 08, 2019, 12:41:28 pm
I've met people who sit on boards that I'm amazed can dress themselves in the morning, never mind be trusted with a box of matches. I bumped into one such person I'd worked with when he was visiting the next company I worked for. I'd just left my office and heard a banging sound coming from my right. I looked around and saw this imbecile's face pressed against the glass window in a door. He'd somehow managed to trap himself in the fire escape stairwell. I'm still not sure who was more surprised to see the other, me or him.

I probably should have let him out, really... ;D

You probably shouldn't have pushed him out there in the first place?   ;D


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Zen Master on February 08, 2019, 12:46:29 pm

Comparing Newport to Northampton is quite ironic as they are both the 2 worst supported teams in the football league.
But which of these 2 basket cases do you think will show some sustainable year on year growth first?

There was me thinking we had the 6th highest average in this division and higher than 8 teams in the division above.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: BackOfTheNet on February 08, 2019, 12:51:25 pm

Comparing Newport to Northampton is quite ironic as they are both the 2 worst supported teams in the football league.


According to the figures published on the Chron website today, Newport are 82nd out of 92 and we're 65th.

You'd think with fan ownership the local community and businesses would have rallied around much more to place them way higher than us in that table...

(and yes, catchment area, proximity to Cardiff, blah blah blah - it's said fairly tongue-in-cheek before anyone goes off on one)


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: random on February 08, 2019, 13:02:38 pm
The three examples we should be looking at are Swansea (rise from 4th to Prem) Accrington and Burton. 

Swansea as they had a plan to build a football club with a vision of what they wanted and how things would work  ie: They told the manager what type and style of football they wanted and they had to use the backroom staff already in place

Accrington and Burton both are owned by fans who are businessmen tuned to modern day policies and practises, whose clubs are punching well above their weight

I still struggle to understand how some fans are so against the above, especially when you factor in the last 10 years at NTFC. But then i believe that many fans don't help as they can only focus on player acquisitions and that is their sole judgement on a chairman, despite the obvious factor that randomly bringing in average players on high wages f***s up the club every time


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Deepcut Cobbler on February 08, 2019, 14:03:29 pm
The three examples we should be looking at are Swansea (rise from 4th to Prem) Accrington and Burton. 

Swansea as they had a plan to build a football club with a vision of what they wanted and how things would work  ie: They told the manager what type and style of football they wanted and they had to use the backroom staff already in place

Accrington and Burton both are owned by fans who are businessmen tuned to modern day policies and practises, whose clubs are punching well above their weight

I still struggle to understand how some fans are so against the above, especially when you factor in the last 10 years at NTFC. But then i believe that many fans don't help as they can only focus on player acquisitions and that is their sole judgement on a chairman, despite the obvious factor that randomly bringing in average players on high wages f***s up the club every time

I am not against the idea of something that progresses NTFC in whatever format, however regarding the 'Fan Ownership' projection, how is it going to be funded?
I haven't seen a credible answer to that one yet.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: random on February 08, 2019, 14:13:33 pm
You have you just choose to ignore it Deepcut

I am pretty sure that funds would be raised to at the very least keep the club in the 4th division.

The only problem at the minute is as a direct result of our current board total failure of running our football club ie: massively overspending on crap players and not giving the managers a decent football club to help motivate those players. Therefore the overheads are way too high in terms of players





Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Melbourne Cobbler on February 08, 2019, 14:14:24 pm
I've met people who sit on boards that I'm amazed can dress themselves in the morning, never mind be trusted with a box of matches. I bumped into one such person I'd worked with when he was visiting the next company I worked for. I'd just left my office and heard a banging sound coming from my right. I looked around and saw this imbecile's face pressed against the glass window in a door. He'd somehow managed to trap himself in the fire escape stairwell. I'm still not sure who was more surprised to see the other, me or him.

I probably should have let him out, really... ;D
I reckon people put me in the same category. When I first became a director the first thing anyone said to me was ďfcuk me, you couldnít direct pi55 into a bucketĒ. True story.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: tcobb on February 08, 2019, 14:23:51 pm
Deepcut, there seems to be no answer about funding a fan owned club, those suggesting it don't seem to have a clue as to where the money will come from.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Deepcut Cobbler on February 08, 2019, 14:37:30 pm
You have you just choose to ignore it Deepcut

I am pretty sure that funds would be raised to at the very least keep the club in the 4th division.

The only problem at the minute is as a direct result of our current board total failure of running our football club ie: massively overspending on crap players and not giving the managers a decent football club to help motivate those players. Therefore the overheads are way too high in terms of players



You answer with "You have you just choose to ignore it Deepcut" and then say "I am pretty sure...."

How can you hope to convince anyone of the plans credibility if you aren't even sure yourself?


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Vintage Cobbler on February 08, 2019, 14:38:33 pm
Think in terms of a joint venture partner or partners and you might find your mind opens to a variety of possibilities.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Deepcut Cobbler on February 08, 2019, 14:41:06 pm
Think in terms of a joint venture partner or partners and you might find your mind opens to a variety of possibilities.

My understanding of a Joint Venture Partnership is not 'Fan Ownership'.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Vintage Cobbler on February 08, 2019, 14:48:55 pm
I wouldn't get too fixated by the terminology. There are all sorts of variations one could come up but to answer you question and,  for example, if the Trust owned 51% and JVPs 49% does that make it a fans ownership scheme? 


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: BedsCobb on February 08, 2019, 14:57:50 pm
I am not against the idea of something that progresses NTFC in whatever format, however regarding the 'Fan Ownership' projection, how is it going to be funded?
I haven't seen a credible answer to that one yet.
Its not being 'funded' now so if our fan base, local buisneses, well wishers  etc were happy to get involved with and support where possible  to increase all departments of our turn over by 50% then that would be a much better starting platform than just sitting still wondering if these latest lot are ever going to do what the said they would when taking control of our club?


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Deepcut Cobbler on February 08, 2019, 15:36:10 pm
Its not being 'funded' now so if our fan base, local buisneses, well wishers  etc were happy to get involved with and support where possible  to increase all departments of our turn over by 50% then that would be a much better starting platform than just sitting still wondering if these latest lot are ever going to do what the said they would when taking control of our club?

What's not being 'funded' now?
"...so if.....were happy.....and support where possible....increase all departments of our turnover by 50%..."  Nothing credible about any of that.
"...better than just sitting still..."   Isn't that what you have done for the past 3 or more years?

Convince me and the many others on here that you have a factually credible plan. 
If you convince me I'll join the 'team' but at the moment, I am very far from it.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: BedsCobb on February 08, 2019, 15:55:35 pm
What's not being 'funded' now?
"...so if.....were happy.....and support where possible....increase all departments of our turnover by 50%..."  Nothing credible about any of that.
"...better than just sitting still..."   Isn't that what you have done for the past 3 or more years?

Convince me and the many others on here that you have a factually credible plan. 
If you convince me I'll join the 'team' but at the moment, I am very far from it.
Squad....cut backs.
Infrastructure improvements ... none.
Only the gate takings, tv sky pooled monies etc, are keeping our club ticking over.
Gates are dwindling due to lack of direction as to where our club is going and being stuck in the lower regions of league 2 is an unmitigated disaster and we find ourselves back there because of a .... lack of funding.




Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Deepcut Cobbler on February 08, 2019, 16:11:57 pm
Squad....cut backs.
Infrastructure improvements ... none.
Only the gate takings, tv sky pooled monies etc, are keeping our club ticking over.
Gates are dwindling due to lack of direction as to where our club is going and being stuck in the lower regions of league 2 is an unmitigated disaster and we find ourselves back there because of a .... lack of funding.


In your opinion.
You forgot the credible convincing bit...


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: EssTeeFree on February 08, 2019, 16:23:41 pm
The only problem at the minute is as a direct result of our current board total failure of running our football club ie: massively overspending on crap players .....

Sorry to selectively quote, how would it be a guarantee that a fan owned / community / JVP or whatever the model is would not make poor signings, or indeed poor management appointments?

I'm very much in favour of the process the trust are going through to investigate options but I do feel it is all undermined when people post things on here that suggest we would not have had the struggles of the last couple of seasons if we were under some kind of fan ownership, as if it is fact.

Anything that sells fan ownership as a quick fix completely misses the point in my opinion. I would really hope it was a seriously long term vision that is put forward, if it is to tide us over until the next private owner buys us (e.g. Portsmouth) then what is the point?


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: cj on February 08, 2019, 19:00:01 pm
Deepcut, there seems to be no answer about funding a fan owned club, those suggesting it don't seem to have a clue as to where the money will come from.

Pies pies pies pies, pies pies pies pies, PIES.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Melbourne Cobbler on February 08, 2019, 21:47:07 pm
The three examples we should be looking at are Swansea (rise from 4th to Prem) Accrington and Burton. 

Swansea as they had a plan to build a football club with a vision of what they wanted and how things would work  ie: They told the manager what type and style of football they wanted and they had to use the backroom staff already in place

Accrington and Burton both are owned by fans who are businessmen tuned to modern day policies and practises, whose clubs are punching well above their weight

I still struggle to understand how some fans are so against the above, especially when you factor in the last 10 years at NTFC. But then i believe that many fans don't help as they can only focus on player acquisitions and that is their sole judgement on a chairman, despite the obvious factor that randomly bringing in average players on high wages f***s up the club every time
Youíve answered your own question Random. I think the reason you and others like you struggle to understand is you exclusively promote best case scenarios dismissing any and all realistic concerns as irrelevant. The correct thing to do is look at all scenarios and form a balanced considered opinion. The problem with your approach is that many see the obvious omissions and flaws in the reasoning. Your opinion is then ridiculed and any pertinent comments that may be made are lost in the tidal wave of scepticism. The irony is that you inadvertently end up supporting the current model, because many people believe your suggested alternative is probably unrealistic fantasy. Hope that helps?


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: meccanostand on February 09, 2019, 08:09:54 am
Youíve answered your own question Random. I think the reason you and others like you struggle to understand is you exclusively promote best case scenarios dismissing any and all realistic concerns as irrelevant. The correct thing to do is look at all scenarios and form a balanced considered opinion. The problem with your approach is that many see the obvious omissions and flaws in the reasoning. Your opinion is then ridiculed and any pertinent comments that may be made are lost in the tidal wave of scepticism. The irony is that you inadvertently end up supporting the current model, because many people believe your suggested alternative is probably unrealistic fantasy. Hope that helps?

To be fair to Random, he has an open mind and is willing to look outside of the closed frame of reference that is the Cobblers. The vast majority of our fans quietly go about their business and will fairly weigh up any propositions on ownership of the club.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: guest2724 on February 09, 2019, 08:44:11 am
I've replied elsewhere on the finances so I'm not going to repeat myself..

If any model of greater supporter involvement is to succeed then it has to be on the basis of what the current financial position of the club is, not what it could become. No bank would ever take seriously a proposal that includes a growth factor of 50% to make it viable. The first question that any bank will ask is "what happens to your plans if incomes fall by 50%"?

In the case of a football club, any bank will be even more sceptical because of the lack of security..

This isn't to say that supporter ownership models cannot work - I think that they can and NTFC only has the turnover of a large corner shop, but there has to be absolute realism about the money involved. Having looked at the cobblers accounts in as much detail as possible, I would think that a full supporter owned club will need about £5m to be taken seriously and then what ever price the current owner would want to sell their equity.

The £5m is based on cash flow, repairs and renewals, a hedge against fiscal disasters etc...


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: meccanostand on February 09, 2019, 08:50:06 am
I've replied elsewhere on the finances so I'm not going to repeat myself..

If any model of greater supporter involvement is to succeed then it has to be on the basis of what the current financial position of the club is, not what it could become. No bank would ever take seriously a proposal that includes a growth factor of 50% to make it viable. The first question that any bank will ask is "what happens to your plans if incomes fall by 50%"?

In the case of a football club, any bank will be even more sceptical because of the lack of security..

This isn't to say that supporter ownership models cannot work - I think that they can and NTFC only has the turnover of a large corner shop, but there has to be absolute realism about the money involved. Having looked at the cobblers accounts in as much detail as possible, I would think that a full supporter owned club will need about £5m to be taken seriously and then what ever price the current owner would want to sell their equity.

The £5m is based on cash flow, repairs and renewals, a hedge against fiscal disasters etc...

Quite a few summations there but some interesting points. Of course any community owned club would have to have a viable business plan, that goes without saying.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: guest2724 on February 09, 2019, 08:56:25 am
I would be interested to know what the assumptions are that might be questionable? No one outside the club has the full management accounts but a combination of the published accounts, stuff from the EFL etc, mean that I am reasonably confident that the order of magnitude of the finances are correct.



Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: phil_in_npton on February 09, 2019, 11:28:45 am
Good Morning!

As a supporter of a fan owned club, Newport County, i thought i would just add a few points as to what it has meant to me. I dont pretend to know the ins and outs financially of the club, only a peripheral view. Also i think our ground situation is also pretty unique compared to other clubs, we pay rent to the owners, who appear to not even want us to be there.
Going back in time. i just paid my ticket money to watch a game and never really gave a second thought to behind the scenes issues, the club played its matches in whatever league they were in, mostly Division Four and the world carried on.
Then one day my club didnt exist, there was no money left.
After reformation and a pretty much hand to mouth existence for twenty odd years, slowly climbing up the leagues a lottery winner was bamboozled into putting some money into the club, this funded our return to the league but the love affair didnt last long, and the fans buy out situation arose.
Fans were asked to contribute to buy the club and all rallied round with donations and the minimum  to join the trust was £10 a year. A bargain as priority tickets were included in this arrangement, and we did well in the cup and much money was gained.
However it emerged that not enough money was coming in on a regular basis from gate receipts and trust income, Fortunate in a few transfer deals, and cup money balanced the books.
Recently an overhaul of the trust membership scheme upped the minimum contribution from £10 a year to £60 a year, Times four for this household equals £240. For me thats affordable, especially as i dont get to that many home games, but for many fans locally, on top of regular attendance that can be a lot to justify on ones interest in watching football.
Also a subscription to i-follow, and the County lottery are extra outgoings to support my football team.
So it is no longer just pay for a ticket and watch the game, it has become a commitment from the heart and the bank balance.
The recent cup success and the fact that next week we shall be watching us play Man city are memories we shall treasure forever and can be seen as some payback for the financial commitment, without being a trust member i doubt we would have got tickets, certainly not seats as required.
This success has clouded the issue that the club cannot survive (competitively) on a bog standard early cup exit season.
I dont know what the future will hold, but a third party injection of cash may ensure survival but also takes control away from those that care. The fan base of a few thousand cannot fund the existence of a league two football team in the long term. 

Good luck to the Cobblers in sorting out their financial situation which in itself seems very complex to an outsider!

Phil in Northampton




Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: DrillingCobbler on February 09, 2019, 12:28:02 pm
Good Morning!

As a supporter of a fan owned club, Newport County, i thought i would just add a few points as to what it has meant to me. I dont pretend to know the ins and outs financially of the club, only a peripheral view. Also i think our ground situation is also pretty unique compared to other clubs, we pay rent to the owners, who appear to not even want us to be there.
Going back in time. i just paid my ticket money to watch a game and never really gave a second thought to behind the scenes issues, the club played its matches in whatever league they were in, mostly Division Four and the world carried on.
Then one day my club didnt exist, there was no money left.
After reformation and a pretty much hand to mouth existence for twenty odd years, slowly climbing up the leagues a lottery winner was bamboozled into putting some money into the club, this funded our return to the league but the love affair didnt last long, and the fans buy out situation arose.
Fans were asked to contribute to buy the club and all rallied round with donations and the minimum  to join the trust was £10 a year. A bargain as priority tickets were included in this arrangement, and we did well in the cup and much money was gained.
However it emerged that not enough money was coming in on a regular basis from gate receipts and trust income, Fortunate in a few transfer deals, and cup money balanced the books.
Recently an overhaul of the trust membership scheme upped the minimum contribution from £10 a year to £60 a year, Times four for this household equals £240. For me thats affordable, especially as i dont get to that many home games, but for many fans locally, on top of regular attendance that can be a lot to justify on ones interest in watching football.
Also a subscription to i-follow, and the County lottery are extra outgoings to support my football team.
So it is no longer just pay for a ticket and watch the game, it has become a commitment from the heart and the bank balance.
The recent cup success and the fact that next week we shall be watching us play Man city are memories we shall treasure forever and can be seen as some payback for the financial commitment, without being a trust member i doubt we would have got tickets, certainly not seats as required.
This success has clouded the issue that the club cannot survive (competitively) on a bog standard early cup exit season.
I dont know what the future will hold, but a third party injection of cash may ensure survival but also takes control away from those that care. The fan base of a few thousand cannot fund the existence of a league two football team in the long term. 

Good luck to the Cobblers in sorting out their financial situation which in itself seems very complex to an outsider!

Phil in Northampton




Good insight mate. Enjoy your cup game; fingers crossed you win! Or at least hang on for a replay!


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: phil_in_npton on February 09, 2019, 13:21:43 pm
Thank you!

No replays. All on the day, extra time and penalties if required. I just hope we donít suffer as Burton did, albeit that was at City.

Phil in Npton


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Melbourne Cobbler on February 09, 2019, 13:27:44 pm
I've replied elsewhere on the finances so I'm not going to repeat myself..

If any model of greater supporter involvement is to succeed then it has to be on the basis of what the current financial position of the club is, not what it could become. No bank would ever take seriously a proposal that includes a growth factor of 50% to make it viable. The first question that any bank will ask is "what happens to your plans if incomes fall by 50%"?

In the case of a football club, any bank will be even more sceptical because of the lack of security..

This isn't to say that supporter ownership models cannot work - I think that they can and NTFC only has the turnover of a large corner shop, but there has to be absolute realism about the money involved. Having looked at the cobblers accounts in as much detail as possible, I would think that a full supporter owned club will need about £5m to be taken seriously and then what ever price the current owner would want to sell their equity.

The £5m is based on cash flow, repairs and renewals, a hedge against fiscal disasters etc...
Iíve said this before Wandering and I will go on the record with this indisputable fact again. Forget the banks unless you have the collateral to cover the loan and then some. Anyone who assumes this is even a remote possibility without that condition is in for a shock.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: guest2724 on February 09, 2019, 16:56:41 pm
Hi Aussie
I wasn't suggesting a loan...I was just trying to highlight the size of the capital to be raised that might be required for a 100% fan owned club...my figures are speculative given the fact the turnover of the club is confidential..I set £5m as approximately 125% of what the turnover might be..

I agree entirely that any bank would be extremely circumspect in looking at a supporters owned club because no bank wants to be responsible for calling in the collateral of a football club...

Having said that, I think a bank would be willing to look at being the banker of a supporter owned club if there were strict financial rules on how its finances were to be operated, similar to the salary cap management protocol that the EFL already applies to Div 2 clubs..sorry for the confusion..



Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: random on February 09, 2019, 18:12:31 pm
I still find it amazing that some come on here and talk about me saying only best scenario etc etc yet completely ignore the failings of the current and previous managers. In a nutshell whatever fan owner ship is it seems that it must be 100% perfect to gain an support from certain individuals yet are happy with current owners who are imho 1% perfect

The other thing some have wrong is that i am advocating very slow, focus and sustainable growth and actually trying to run the football club for all. Certainly sure that whoever owns the club they will make bad signings however isn't it about time some of you actually starting looking at the bigger picture and ask why do we sign so many players / managers etc and also the calibre and potential of those players. I believe that NTFC has a relatively bad reputation within football, training facilities are poor, player facilities are poor, atmosphere is poor, the owners are mainly absent and there is little / no ambition, these are the things that over time could and should be fixed, which in turn will attract better players.

In summary there has to be a much better balance between on and off pitch investment, in the past it seems 105% player / manager and -5% off the pitch. That would be my focus, I would slash the wage / management bill until off the pitch catches up a bit. If that meant finishing 18th in league 2 for the next 4 seasons then so be it but then player facilities would have improved, better staff, better atmosphere within the club would improve our chances on the pitch.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: tcobb on February 09, 2019, 18:21:14 pm
Slashing the wage bill could mean finishing 24th next season, maybe the season after that too. How would a fan owned Club make up the loss of income because of relegation ?
 Random, why do you think, wrongly, that people who are not keen on fan ownership, want the current owners to stay ?


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Another Pedj on February 09, 2019, 18:27:26 pm
How low would you be prepared to go? Conference,conference North or maybe even one below that.

If that is built into the business plan then just say so..


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Deepcut Cobbler on February 09, 2019, 18:30:21 pm
I still find it amazing that some come on here and talk about me saying only best scenario etc etc yet completely ignore the failings of the current and previous managers. In a nutshell whatever fan owner ship is it seems that it must be 100% perfect to gain an support from certain individuals yet are happy with current owners who are imho 1% perfect

The other thing some have wrong is that i am advocating very slow, focus and sustainable growth and actually trying to run the football club for all. Certainly sure that whoever owns the club they will make bad signings however isn't it about time some of you actually starting looking at the bigger picture and ask why do we sign so many players / managers etc and also the calibre and potential of those players. I believe that NTFC has a relatively bad reputation within football, training facilities are poor, player facilities are poor, atmosphere is poor, the owners are mainly absent and there is little / no ambition, these are the things that over time could and should be fixed, which in turn will attract better players.

In summary there has to be a much better balance between on and off pitch investment, in the past it seems 105% player / manager and -5% off the pitch. That would be my focus, I would slash the wage / management bill until off the pitch catches up a bit. If that meant finishing 18th in league 2 for the next 4 seasons then so be it but then player facilities would have improved, better staff, better atmosphere within the club would improve our chances on the pitch.



I was going to comment on each of your points but decided that it would have been a waste of time...


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Melbourne Cobbler on February 09, 2019, 19:39:49 pm
Hi Aussie
I wasn't suggesting a loan...I was just trying to highlight the size of the capital to be raised that might be required for a 100% fan owned club...my figures are speculative given the fact the turnover of the club is confidential..I set £5m as approximately 125% of what the turnover might be..

I agree entirely that any bank would be extremely circumspect in looking at a supporters owned club because no bank wants to be responsible for calling in the collateral of a football club...

Having said that, I think a bank would be willing to look at being the banker of a supporter owned club if there were strict financial rules on how its finances were to be operated, similar to the salary cap management protocol that the EFL already applies to Div 2 clubs..sorry for the confusion..


I know, I was just saying because you raised the subject of the banks. I have the unfortunate duty of having to deal with them on a regular basis both here and in the UK. In fact I am currently doing so on 2 fronts, clueless w@nkers Drive me to an inch of sanity. However on your last point trust me on this, whilst all and any will happily be the clubs banker when it comes to a loan you would struggle to get enough to redecorate the changing rooms.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Melbourne Cobbler on February 09, 2019, 19:46:16 pm

I was going to comment on each of your points but decided that it would have been a waste of time...
Instead of giving Random advice I should be taking yours DC. Itís like talking to the cat.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Melbourne Cobbler on February 10, 2019, 01:52:01 am
To be fair to Random, he has an open mind and is willing to look outside of the closed frame of reference that is the Cobblers. The vast majority of our fans quietly go about their business and will fairly weigh up any propositions on ownership of the club.
ďHe has an open mindĒ? Do me a favour Mecca, if you are going to comment on here stay off the drugs.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Irchy cob on February 10, 2019, 07:29:08 am
The amount of (not even hidden) agendas, plans written on the back of fag packets and rhetoric on here is frightening.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Terryfenwickatemyhamster on February 10, 2019, 09:50:49 am
All I want is proof. That is very little to ask. I have attended a few meetings, listened to individuals/groups,  as well as receiving some emails from the council.

If I am asked to sit in a meeting where the word ďallegedlyĒ is used as much as it is already, then I will more than likely go bang 😁.

If someone tells me that a sum of money can be raised from somewhere, they better be able to show me how. I do not want to hear about if every supporter does this, we'll have this. Or if we get local business on board we'll make this much.. That is not a plan.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: guest2724 on February 10, 2019, 10:25:12 am
What emails have you seen from NBC?


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Terryfenwickatemyhamster on February 10, 2019, 11:04:48 am
What emails have you seen from NBC?

Ones that state that there is constructive ongoing dialogue between the club and NBC.





Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Melbourne Cobbler on February 10, 2019, 11:15:09 am
All I want is proof. That is very little to ask. I have attended a few meetings, listened to individuals/groups,  as well as receiving some emails from the council.

If I am asked to sit in a meeting where the word ďallegedlyĒ is used as much as it is already, then I will more than likely go bang 😁.

If someone tells me that a sum of money can be raised from somewhere, they better be able to show me how. I do not want to hear about if every supporter does this, we'll have this. Or if we get local business on board we'll make this much.. That is not a plan.
Put the question out there Hammy. We can establish how many people regularly use this forum. In the event there was a share issue for NTFC to become a fan owned club, how many would be prepared to invest and how much? Transpose that across the support base and you have an idea. Farvfrom an exact science with a lot of variables but you would get an indication of the stomach for this if nothing else. Stating the obvious, fan owned club means fans have to source the finances. If they donít and someone else puts up the collateral then they will be the owners. This process has to start somewhere so either this forum, the trust or any other supporter representative body may as well take a snap shot of opinion and more importantly intent. If itís 10 million or 10 quid letís find out? If itís nothing then fine you look at other options. My own view on this is that itís put up or shut up time. I have stated previously that there are certain criteria that would need to be followed for me to be involved. However, leaving the conditional elements aside I would happily buy a number of shares up to £3,000 given the opportunity. As far as I am aware there are a few others who would. I donít want to put the poll up and pre-empt or damage the process whilst the trust are working on a strategy or proposal. But FFS letís stop arguing and find out what people are willing and/or able to do?


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: FezNTFC on February 10, 2019, 11:36:17 am
I think it's worth repeating that this is the very beginning of this process. People are quite rightly asking where the money would be coming from, but frankly they aren't going to get an answer at the moment. As yet we don't even know which model the Trust might look at exploring in more detail. It could be fans only, it could be fans + private investors, there may not even be a viable outcome at all.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Melbourne Cobbler on February 10, 2019, 11:49:23 am
I think it's worth repeating that this is the very beginning of this process. People are quite rightly asking where the money would be coming from, but frankly they aren't going to get an answer at the moment. As yet we don't even know which model the Trust might look at exploring in more detail. It could be fans only, it could be fans + private investors, there may not even be a viable outcome at all.
Fair point Fez but if itís out there at least you can rule it in or out as a factor and have some sort of indication of what supporters are prepared to do if anything?


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: meccanostand on February 10, 2019, 11:53:44 am
Put the question out there Hammy. We can establish how many people regularly use this forum. In the event there was a share issue for NTFC to become a fan owned club, how many would be prepared to invest and how much? Transpose that across the support base and you have an idea. Farvfrom an exact science with a lot of variables but you would get an indication of the stomach for this if nothing else. Stating the obvious, fan owned club means fans have to source the finances. If they donít and someone else puts up the collateral then they will be the owners. This process has to start somewhere so either this forum, the trust or any other supporter representative body may as well take a snap shot of opinion and more importantly intent. If itís 10 million or 10 quid letís find out? If itís nothing then fine you look at other options. My own view on this is that itís put up or shut up time. I have stated previously that there are certain criteria that would need to be followed for me to be involved. However, leaving the conditional elements aside I would happily buy a number of shares up to £3,000 given the opportunity. As far as I am aware there are a few others who would. I donít want to put the poll up and pre-empt or damage the process whilst the trust are working on a strategy or proposal. But FFS letís stop arguing and find out what people are willing and/or able to do?

There's a about 5 people "arguing" on this thread, I wouldn't even call it arguing. A message board of anonymous posters will rarely be the vehicle to judge anything. Let's have a poll of anonymous people on an undetermined outcome for undetermined figures. Pretty pointless.

The Trust have called a public meeting and as you say just be a little patient and engage with the process. Fair play on being willing to invest, that's a really positive start.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Terryfenwickatemyhamster on February 10, 2019, 12:44:34 pm
I think it's worth repeating that this is the very beginning of this process. People are quite rightly asking where the money would be coming from, but frankly they aren't going to get an answer at the moment. As yet we don't even know which model the Trust might look at exploring in more detail. It could be fans only, it could be fans + private investors, there may not even be a viable outcome at all.

Are you telling the truth there. Youíre telling me that you and others are being totally transparent at this point?

If you want any credibility, you have to play by the same rules as the rest of us. Iíve been up front from the start. Do you honestly believe the Trust at this point are discussing a fan owned model?


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: meccanostand on February 10, 2019, 13:16:46 pm
All you can go on is the trust's official correspondence, the rest is just hearsay. The Trust has plenty of credibility and in sorting a public meeting is being about as open as it can get. Understand that there are people itching to find out more and join in but just needs a little patience. Would it be correct or sensible to rule out any models before a meeting has been held? Probably not. Until then we'll just go round and round in circles.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Terryfenwickatemyhamster on February 10, 2019, 13:30:09 pm
All you can go on is the trust's official correspondence, the rest is just hearsay. The Trust has plenty of credibility and in sorting a public meeting is being about as open as it can get. Understand that there are people itching to find out more and join in but just needs a little patience. Would it be correct or sensible to rule out any models before a meeting has been held? Probably not. Until then we'll just go round and round in circles.

Iím more than happy to hear representations from anybody. I am a lot more interested in protecting the Trust than I am any businessman or indeed owner. But... All we hear is about how itís our club. Well... Itís our Trust as well.

I will say one thing, then leave it. On the whole I have stayed away from this debate. But one thing is clear. If anybody is pushing an agenda that is nothing more than just another non football, non NTFC interested party.. Just be careful. Rarely are things as they seem in business.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: meccanostand on February 10, 2019, 13:37:49 pm
Iím more than happy to hear representations from anybody. I am a lot more interested in protecting the Trust than I am any businessman or indeed owner. But... All we hear is about how itís our club. Well... Itís our Trust as well.

I will say one thing, then leave it. On the whole I have stayed away from this debate. But one thing is clear. If anybody is pushing an agenda that is nothing more than just another non football, non NTFC interested party.. Just be careful. Rarely are things as they seem in business.


Yep agree with all of this. Everything I've heard from you is pretty level headed and don't really disagree with anything. Hopefully we'll come out of the end of this with a healthier club. I'm hopeful.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: BedsCobb on February 10, 2019, 13:50:02 pm
Put the question out there Hammy. We can establish how many people regularly use this forum. In the event there was a share issue for NTFC to become a fan owned club, how many would be prepared to invest and how much? Transpose that across the support base and you have an idea. Farvfrom an exact science with a lot of variables but you would get an indication of the stomach for this if nothing else. Stating the obvious, fan owned club means fans have to source the finances. If they donít and someone else puts up the collateral then they will be the owners. This process has to start somewhere so either this forum, the trust or any other supporter representative body may as well take a snap shot of opinion and more importantly intent. If itís 10 million or 10 quid letís find out? If itís nothing then fine you look at other options. My own view on this is that itís put up or shut up time. I have stated previously that there are certain criteria that would need to be followed for me to be involved. However, leaving the conditional elements aside I would happily buy a number of shares up to £3,000 given the opportunity. As far as I am aware there are a few others who would. I donít want to put the poll up and pre-empt or damage the process whilst the trust are working on a strategy or proposal. But FFS letís stop arguing and find out what people are willing and/or able to do?
I don't think people are arguing as such, Just fed up with the constant  lack of direction our club is suffering.
This can be gauged quite easily by the fact so few people bother turning up and watching.

I would prefer fans were offered multiple years season tickets at fixed price rates in which to finance ground improvements etc, with any future short fall being made up by encouraging new supporters and better corporate facilities etc.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: FezNTFC on February 10, 2019, 14:16:53 pm
Are you telling the truth there. Youíre telling me that you and others are being totally transparent at this point?

If you want any credibility, you have to play by the same rules as the rest of us. Iíve been up front from the start. Do you honestly believe the Trust at this point are discussing a fan owned model?
My honest answer is that I don't know which of the models they are discussing at the moment. I haven't asked, I'm not involved with the project and I'm not on the Trust board any more. I'm going to let them crack on with it and find out more at the public meeting.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: The 12th Marquis of Sixfields on February 10, 2019, 14:22:07 pm
That's an old story. They have made adjustments to put them on a more secure financial footing since then.

They also have rent issues that we don't have to deal with. the current board have put us on a good footing to explore community ownership. What's more we are in a position to cherry pick the best from the private and community owned models.
Yeah of course relevant to the overall view but the Newport model and how it has been adjusted needs more analysis than a couple of lines on here.

The story you referenced is old and it's more functional to adopt a fluid approach to what is happening on the ground there.

In any case, Newport are just one model, you can't poo poo the whole idea of community ownership with reference to the Exiles. Also let's reference the profits and losses of the current NTFC administration for a rounded conversation.


it's from this season. not really "old".


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Terryfenwickatemyhamster on February 10, 2019, 19:01:11 pm
My honest answer is that I don't know which of the models they are discussing at the moment. I haven't asked, I'm not involved with the project and I'm not on the Trust board any more. I'm going to let them crack on with it and find out more at the public meeting.

 ;D


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Turf Claret on February 10, 2019, 20:06:17 pm
My honest answer is that I don't know which of the models they are discussing at the moment. I haven't asked, I'm not involved with the project and I'm not on the Trust board any more. I'm going to let them crack on with it and find out more at the public meeting.

I suppose you could always ask your dad.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Melbourne Cobbler on February 10, 2019, 20:09:50 pm
There's a about 5 people "arguing" on this thread, I wouldn't even call it arguing. A message board of anonymous posters will rarely be the vehicle to judge anything. Let's have a poll of anonymous people on an undetermined outcome for undetermined figures. Pretty pointless.

The Trust have called a public meeting and as you say just be a little patient and engage with the process. Fair play on being willing to invest, that's a really positive start.
If the trust polled itís members they wouldnít be anonymous, and the point is to try and establish  the figures to determine the outcome. It must be me?


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: FezNTFC on February 10, 2019, 20:34:38 pm
I suppose you could always ask your dad.
You can as well. At the public meeting.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: random on February 10, 2019, 22:08:31 pm
Yep I thought so, Tcobb, knew thats what you would say

I would not be expecting relegation despite cutting the playing budget, please read what i put

Surely you can't argue that our recent way of buying / loaning player after player with absolutely no plan, has not worked and made the club very unattractive to would be investors due to our stupid wage bill?

I am talking of budgets similar to Accrington, Exeter, Lincoln and Burton (relative to the division). We are constantly told a budget is top 3 (top 1 i think it was this season) which I expect doesn't include ex managers we are still paying. So i believe that we would still have a decent enough team and spend money on building up the club.
It will take time, it's not a quick fix but pretty sure it is a bit alternative than DC / KT have been


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Terryfenwickatemyhamster on February 11, 2019, 12:42:36 pm
I suppose you could always ask your dad.

It was the "honest" bit that tickled me..


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: FezNTFC on February 11, 2019, 15:34:13 pm
It was the "honest" bit that tickled me..
I'm incredibly comfortable with what I've said thanks.  :)


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Terryfenwickatemyhamster on February 11, 2019, 15:42:21 pm
I'm incredibly comfortable with what I've said thanks.  :)
I have no reason to doubt you. I have treated all similarities in your responses as purely coincidental. I am incredibly comfortable with the fact that you and your father have not discussed this at all.  ;D ;D

Please note: My tongue is firmly in cheek.. Ooooer.  8)


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: clarkeysntfc on February 11, 2019, 15:45:03 pm
So given everyone being transparent... who are the investors being lined up for the "community ownership" model?


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: FezNTFC on February 11, 2019, 17:01:15 pm
I have no reason to doubt you. I have treated all similarities in your responses as purely coincidental. I am incredibly comfortable with the fact that you and your father have not discussed this at all.  ;D ;D

Please note: My tongue is firmly in cheek.. Ooooer.  8)
What point are you trying to prove here? That I'm related to one of the board members of the Trust? You haven't unearthed anything that most people didn't know anyway.

In essence though, your argument seems to be that due to my family connections, I might be privy to more information and that I'm therefore misleading people about what ownership models the Trust is looking into.

This is despite the fact that the Trust says in its public statement that it's looking into different models, including community ownership and also a fan partnership with private investors.

It's actually impossible to mislead anyone when the Trust has literally said it's looking into all of the different options.

It's a pathetic argument when you think about it really.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: BedsCobb on February 11, 2019, 17:03:26 pm
So given everyone being transparent... who are the investors being lined up for the "community ownership" model?
Getting investors to buy into a community ownership in our tiny ground void of any modern corporate facilities would be unlikely.
Any would be investors would want to see some resemblance of a real community club with supporters and towns folk in general getting on board with real working development initiatives.

We've had several suggested on here that would work an absolute treat.
I suspect its only a matter of time before something gives and our club gets a well deserved break.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Terryfenwickatemyhamster on February 11, 2019, 18:45:00 pm
What point are you trying to prove here? That I'm related to one of the board members of the Trust? You haven't unearthed anything that most people didn't know anyway.

In essence though, your argument seems to be that due to my family connections, I might be privy to more information and that I'm therefore misleading people about what ownership models the Trust is looking into.

This is despite the fact that the Trust says in its public statement that it's looking into different models, including community ownership and also a fan partnership with private investors.

It's actually impossible to mislead anyone when the Trust has literally said it's looking into all of the different options.

It's a pathetic argument when you think about it really.

I didnít realise there was any argument. Iím not too sure whatís got you all revved up.

As I said.. It is all tongue in cheek.. Clearly I have said something incendiary that I didnít realise.

I canít say anymore than I've already said. I am more than happy to accept your honest version, that you havenít had any conversation about it at all.... I canít see what more I can say. Try to take things in the spirit they are meant and not read between the lines too much James.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Melbourne Cobbler on February 11, 2019, 20:09:16 pm
Well, if the 3.53 million valuation in the Chronic is to be believed we are going to need to sell quite a few pies and bovrils to cover that. Hope there are plenty of well wishers out there? Iím still sticking to my 14 to 17 million guestimated budget though.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: The 12th Marquis of Sixfields on February 11, 2019, 20:48:31 pm
Well, if the 3.53 million valuation in the Chronic is to be believed we are going to need to sell quite a few pies and bovrils to cover that. Hope there are plenty of well wishers out there? I’m still sticking to my 14 to 17 million guestimated budget though.
they've used that website run by Wally's to come to that valuation. I wouldn't take any notice of it


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Melbourne Cobbler on February 11, 2019, 20:55:05 pm
they've used that website run by Wally's to come to that valuation. I wouldn't take any notice of it
To be fair I did choke on my cornflakes. To turn £1 into 3.53 million in 3 years is the single greatest return on investment Iíve ever heard of. Not my place to speak for the bloke but KT would take your hand off for a fraction of that, so it is nonsense as you say.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Another Pedj on February 11, 2019, 21:29:01 pm
That depends. He may have paid Cardoza a £1 but he has invested, or at least he and his partners companies have invested £2million. He wants to recover that.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Another Pedj on February 11, 2019, 21:30:22 pm
Invested us probably the wrong word. It's what the club owes to him and associates.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Terryfenwickatemyhamster on February 11, 2019, 22:26:10 pm
Well, if the 3.53 million valuation in the Chronic is to be believed we are going to need to sell quite a few pies and bovrils to cover that. Hope there are plenty of well wishers out there? Iím still sticking to my 14 to 17 million guestimated budget though.

There is only one source that is less reliable than Beds.... The Shyte that is the Chron.



Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Irchy cob on February 11, 2019, 22:43:40 pm
There is only one source that is less reliable than Beds.... The Shyte that is the Chron.



And theyíre using figures pulled out of thin air by transfermarkt - the chron must be really struggling for content to have to stoop to that.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: BedsCobb on February 11, 2019, 23:03:11 pm
Well, if the 3.53 million valuation in the Chronic is to be believed we are going to need to sell quite a few pies and bovrils to cover that. Hope there are plenty of well wishers out there? Iím still sticking to my 14 to 17 million guestimated budget though.
or a prolonged boycott, should their demands be deemed unfairly excessive.
This lot would soon run to the hills.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: meccanostand on February 12, 2019, 07:31:42 am
Trust Community Ownership public meeting. 1pm Sunday 10th March at the Park Inn Northampton.

https://twitter.com/ntfc_trust/status/1095033404943462401  (https://twitter.com/ntfc_trust/status/1095033404943462401)


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: meccanostand on February 22, 2019, 09:21:01 am
From the Cobblers fans' engagement meeting last night: Kelvin Thomas happy to consider any proposals from the supporters trust on community ownership.

https://twitter.com/PGNTFC/status/1098865174352744448 (https://twitter.com/PGNTFC/status/1098865174352744448)


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Irchy cob on February 22, 2019, 13:59:44 pm
From the Cobblers fans' engagement meeting last night: Kelvin Thomas happy to consider any proposals from the supporters trust on community ownership.

https://twitter.com/PGNTFC/status/1098865174352744448 (https://twitter.com/PGNTFC/status/1098865174352744448)

Isnít the key phrase in that report that KT ďis interested to see who will provide financial backingĒ - it suggests to me (I might be wrong) that he is sceptical as to how his asking price is likely to be met.


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: random on February 22, 2019, 15:01:49 pm
It doesnít appear that the Northampton public are too interested in the opening meeting. I mean there is nothing from the Cronic or Jeremy Casey and no mention on radio Northampton.
No wonder nothing changes

Lol re KT wanna to see the money and worried who it is    Did he come out with the ďwant the best for People of Northampton ď bulls*** ?


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: cobblerwatch on February 22, 2019, 15:09:21 pm
It doesnít appear that the Northampton public are too interested in the opening meeting. I mean there is nothing from the Cronic or Jeremy Casey and no mention on radio Northampton.
No wonder nothing changes

Lol re KT wanna to see the money and worried who it is    Did he come out with the ďwant the best for People of Northampton ď bulls*** ?

I have to agree on a weak and uninspiring meeting - FFS all sorts of positive adjectives about the clubs financial position and the East Stand development but totally zero on commitment or detail - surely (if it exists) a plan for the East Stand development could be given and "reluctance to provide it until......" might logically suggests there is no plan and no intention.

https://www.ntfc.co.uk/news/2019/february/supporters_advisory_panel_21feb/


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Zen Master on February 22, 2019, 16:32:53 pm
 It appears that with the leases sorted that the original footprint is now back in the clubs control separate from CDNL land.
 Iím not sure if NBC can hold out on any planning applications on the basis of finishing the East Stand. I hope they can but have my reservations.

 Whether or not the vision is for the clubs land to be used for funding development or CDNL realised development profit is hard to fathom at this point.

Time will tell but as Iím 45 I may not still be around to see itís fruition!

 



 


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: meccanostand on February 22, 2019, 18:45:34 pm
It appears that with the leases sorted that the original footprint is now back in the clubs control separate from CDNL land.
 Iím not sure if NBC can hold out on any planning applications on the basis of finishing the East Stand. I hope they can but have my reservations.

 Whether or not the vision is for the clubs land to be used for funding development or CDNL realised development profit is hard to fathom at this point.

Time will tell but as Iím 45 I may not still be around to see itís fruition!

 



 


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: meccanostand on February 22, 2019, 18:49:08 pm
Did chuckle at a club with a holding company c80% owned by a British Virgin Islands entity asking the trust for transparency.  ;D


Title: Re: Fan Ownership
Post by: Crutchless on February 22, 2019, 20:41:07 pm
What a load of Titts we have on this board.  :)