The Hotel End

Thought it might be interesting to compare our first season back in the third tier since the Graham Carr promotion 36 years ago. Just a bit of fun, remember we've only ever been relegated straight back down once in that time.

After 3 games:

Atkins 4pts
Carr 4pts
Curle 4pts
Wilson 4pts
Page 3pts
Brady 1pt
Gorman 1pt

Two things that come to mind with that. I really hate Rob Page. And I'd forgot all about Gorman. He was a really nice guy though.

I had too. Herman was his first name iirc. Got it all wrong and had to revert to night time attacks late on - something the Cobblers did quite well last night!

Seriously though, John understandably pulled out of the game - think his wife passed away with ill health.

His Wycombe team were really entertaining to watch. Would have liked to have seen how it would have panned out with us in normal circumstances.

I've updated this to include Bowen and Crerand, arguably our best and worst managers. Everbrite was of course right, Bowen had a poor start to his initial season in the third tier and including Crerand should keep Brady off the bottom whatever happens.

(https://i.postimg.cc/QdnXfkP7/Game-3.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Can you do another table showing points after 10 games as this would be more relevant.

Thanks in advance mate.

I'll update it on this thread each game. You'll have to wait until after the Exeter game for the 10 game table. Only next month.

Joking apart, I think Everbrite made a valid point in regards Bowen, poor start but we ended up 8th.

Stat man…how about the list of managers by service level. You’ve probably published before.
They don’t usually last very long. I reckon JB could break the mould regardless of this season, more out of fear if KT dared to sack him!

Sorry, only just seen this, I'll see what I can do. However in the meantime.

(https://i.postimg.cc/cHGJtMtq/Game-4.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

There you go Aidy.

(https://i.postimg.cc/Hsr42dPp/Managers.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/D8KXfkTD)

Thank you. I don’t think he’ll catch Bowen!

I can honestly see him reach number 2 on that list. Although perhaps naive. I don’t think he’s fashionable for a team to want to pinch him.

Granted that may change if he keeps us in league 1 for a few years  ;D

I feel old now. A grand total of 26 managers teams that I have watched.
One of your better stats lists Marvo.

I'm about the same.

32  :(

This will sort out the brats from the men. Whose gonna top the list? My money is on Evers.  ;D

38

Interesting. Dave Lee where he should be in a shocking last place! Was it a 4-0 drubbing at Plymouth (was there) where he came up with the most excuse ridden diatribe?

Also, surprised to see Tony Barton last longer than Rob Page. Certainly didn't seem like it from memory!  :o

39

Did you ever watch the team that Committee put out?  ;D

30

I assume that we are only counting a manager once, Bowen had 3 spells and some others had more than 1. Also only counted once when a manager had a previous spell as caretaker manager.

29. Think the committee was just before my time - but can anyone clarify, around 77/78 time?

I was on the committee  ;)  :)

Do you have a chronological list instead of time served, because I am struggling to remember who was in charge when I started going to games in 1980. I want to Say Bill Dodgin? Maybe Clive Walker?

Both Walker and Dodgin Jnr managed the club in 1980. If you know who we played against your first game I can tell you which.

So I've now moved up to 30!

(https://i.postimg.cc/26bcmWQ1/managers-in-time-order.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/ZBmFxCDm)

Total games in all their spells.

My total is 38.

Having seen the update, put me down for 27.  I forgot about Theo Foley.

I've seen everyone from Dave Bowens first spell, so that includes Jack Jennings, a total of 39

First game 16th April 1979, so 30, although the name Mike Keen means nothing to me. I always thought it was Clive Walker but he seems to have arrive shortly after. I was a kid though.
We won 4 v 2, I think George Riley scored a couple but not one of those that can remember that far back.….just checking we beat the P*sh on Saturday?  ;D

35 for me, 36 if Jim Barron is included, joint caretaker with Sammo for a while and 37 if we're including comitee. :)

Dont count if hes not on the list..

I've moved up to 31

23 for me in 26 years

According to that I've seen 33, one or two I barely remember.

Snap!

42 but only 38 different ones. 8)

I was miles out. It must be about 37 now I've looked at the dates  ;D I don't remember about 8 or nine of them.

It was against Peterborough in the FA Cup in November.
Cheers.

In a nutshell, Dave Bowen, Graham Carr, Chris Wilder, Ian Atkins, the current supremo and some bloke called Darnell aside...they were all s***e!  :P

Herbert Chapman wasn't too bad. Dunno what happened to him after he left us though. :)

34 to 36  
Primarily from Dave Smith

Some of the short lived Managers was aware that they were the managers but due to school and living in London; having a sport to play may have seen the team play but not sure which manager was in charge! Could have totted them up incorrectly as well!
 
I would say Bowen and his 60’s sides have been the best with Stuart Gray being an intellectual coach, did well for a time. Loved Atkins for his bully boy tactics and Graham Carr for unearthing those gems. Who can forget Eddie Eddie on the wing. So many great players from Jack English and Alan Woan to Theo Foley and Ashworth and the great Cliff Holton and equally great Frank Large plus the irrepressible Holmes! We may have history in abundance! Possibly Brady is now on his way to emulate Dave Bowen?

I thought this but it’s a double edged sword. He seems ambitious, so if he does really well will probably move on at some point. On the flip side you never know when some kind of rot starts to set in and a manager totally loses the plot, along with most of the players.
He’s already high up the league table of managers in terms of service. I just know that there is no one else I’d rather have at the moment.
Perhaps he can embed us in L1, take a Championship job and Wilder/Dyche are available to take over, although their stock will have to drop. Wilder’s has, Dyche is trying!

Between 24 and 26 for me. Atko was the manager when I first took an interest but I was dragged along to a few games here and there in the years prior to that. They would have been in the Foley/Chard/Barnwell era but I wouldn't have the foggiest idea which ones were in charge of the games I was at!

Haha... I meant Herbert Chapman tbf...not the school teacher who used to frequent Jekyl & Hyde!  :P

(https://i.postimg.cc/FsW5Jj2X/Game-5.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)photo hosting software (https://postimages.org/app)

7 points after 5 games I think most fans would have took this

FTFY

(https://i.postimg.cc/8cj3sWb8/Game-6.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/Hstg2Qzd/Game-7.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Brady has slipped level with Curle now and has only half the points Atkins had achieved at this stage. Early days.

(https://i.postimg.cc/5yRjKpQw/Game-8.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/t4w6RhHh/Game-9.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

That's a bit better!  :)

Interesting how Page wasn't too bad for us. I always thought his problem was that he wasn't Chris Wilder enough and as things have turned out elsewhere he's not such a bad manager after all. He was sacked because we were 16th in the division, isn't that our target this season?

His comments after the Bristol Rovers defeat didn't help along with the bad form at the time.

The men against girls? That wasn't good but hardly a sacking offence. It was poor form but we were 16th. We are 17th now after a win.

We had lost 9 and 11, got knocked out the cup by a none league side and just been hammered 5-0 by Bristol Rovers. The football was also dire.

I'll never forgive him for the away performance against Posh ether.

It was only going one way with him imo.

Yes, those comments following the 5-0 defeat. He was sacked on the Monday after.

I'm not sure what 9 and 11 means but no manager gets sacked for losing cup games, it's routine league management. They did lose 5-0 away but it's hardly the first time a team had a bad result. What game against Pish was it that so annoyed you?
He must be the first manager to be sacked for potential future defeats.

One place above we are now

Page started well but results went badly wrong from jovembwr onwards. That Bristol Rovers game really was the final straw we were dreadful

I'm pretty sure your intelligent enough to know it was a typo and I meant 'in' but thanks for highlighting it in an 'innocent' way.

I genuinely didn’t know what it meant. What was the unforgivable Pish game?

The Posh loss when he made the most ludicrous team line up I’ve ever seen a Cobblers manager make. We obviously got destroyed as a result , and I’d gladly have sacked him after that night.

Add to that, the stuffing from Bristol Rovers, the Stourbridge debacle and 9 losses in 11, and Christ he was lucky to get given as long as he did.

Absolutely awful manager.

It was the “we go again” every week that did it for me.

I too would have sacked Page after the BRovers whitewash. He did enjoy a much lauded career with Wales though but clearly did not work out with us. It is well to remember that Page was highly respected at Port Vale before he joined us, much against Vale Fans wishes. Finally as you all know Wales qualified for the 2022 Fifa World Cup for thr firt time in 50+ years. I do wonder sometimes that our attitude to Managers and Players alike is a bit 'Billy Big Boots' especially after a patch of poor results.

It was the "just needs a sprinkle of stardust" and then ripping up the team that did it for me.

When the dentist asks you when Bonfire night is!

I feel compelled to buy you a beer after this post, absolutely spot on.

He played Byrom and Anderson in midfield, 5 at the back and 3 upfront.  We got absolutely battered from start to finish.

Well, his career since being sacked has shown he is a pretty decent manager.
Once you all get bored of Brady and start banging on about his lack of experience I'll take him back. Unless of course Calderwood gets the job.

This post makes very little sense to me.

I can make a vague statement of presumption in it, no idea where or how you've got that from though.

However, if Rob Page is as imaginative as you can get for this mysterious  post Brady era that appears to be looming, I'm glad you're not the guy appointing the position.

Don't tell my brother-in-law that, follows Wales away, mentions all the flaws that we saw in him (no way to change a game etc). The only reason he got the job was because of Giggs. The only reason they got to the world cup was because of Bale. They tolerated him in qatar, and all want him gone now.

I recall hearing the team line up that night and we were like 'wtf'. We've got no midfielders! He then proceeded to take off the only one we had on the pitch at half time and replaced him with another one. He chucked Byron under a bus that night.

My favourite (well least favourite!) Page moment was at Stourbridge. We were around 2 and a half minutes into the 3 minutes of time added on and he decided to make a sub, so wasted about 30 seconds of the 1 minute we still had too play. Then right at the very end we had a corner (which was the last action of the game) and he still wouldn't send the keeper up!

Bloke stole and living and still does. Most useless manager we've ever had, and I include Fenwick in that lot. Nothing against him personally, but it staggers me how he's stayed in the game at all let alone managed at international level. Boothroyd always gets pelters but he did keep us up and nearly got us promoted, plus he did an amazing job at Watford before hand. Page had two (I think) bang average seasons at Port Vale then fcuked us over completely. Thats his contribution to club football management!

Page was a s***e manager, Boothroyd was a s***e manager, and both ended up as U21 managers. On that basis, I would have expected JFH to get the Holland job.

And JFH continued the line of s***e managers

That was my point mate.

hmmm
 (https://inews.co.uk/sport/football/robert-page-wales-manager-underrated-world-cup-1987193)

He absolutely chucked Byrom under the bus that night, that is one of the driving factors in my original comment on how I've never forgiven him for that performance.

I can distinctly remember feeling sorry for Byrom, as Posh knocked the ball around like they were playing against a Sunday park team. I was skint at the time too. One of the most tatically inept performances I've seen from a manager in my 33 years as a fan.

He's got by on the skin of his teeth in the Wales job and as someone's already said they are sick of him.

I wholely agree in he's one of, if not the most useless managers we've had, left us in a mess, which sadly was continued by some almost equally as useless managers(2 of which have at least done something credible at another club) Curle has his critics but he stabilised us, brought Goode in and the play off final win was a game to remember.

I'll take Brady 7 days a week and twice on a Sunday over Page, from now until forever.

I think Page's record overall with other clubs and Wales suggests he's not a bad manager, but he was awful for us and deservedly got sacked. As stated on earlier posts he was lucky to last as long as he did. His signings were mostly very poor for L1 level and he completely lost the plot after a solid start. We weren't that low in the table at the time, but once you've lost the the confidence of the dressing room you're finished. It was the same with JFH and Dean Austin, to name but two.

In his defence , most of the Wilder team had already been 'disposed of or released' prior to him taking over.

Yes, but look at his signings. Apart from Matt Taylor and Zakuani, I can't think of any other decent ones, but quite a few duds - Beautyman, Hanley, McCourt, Revell, JJ Hooper, Sonupe. I don't think any of those were close to L1 standard.

Agreed, but you didn't mention that part of the equation in your criticism. ;)

I think Brady has proved that you don't need a turnover of players, when going up a division. That was our best team in 20 years. As stated Byrom was thrown under the bus at  Boro. It's worse than that, it was his first and only start under Page. Lawson D'Ath didn't start a game. Alfie Potter hardly got a look in. Rod McDonald started 2 league games, one right at the end at Bristol, another thrown in without playing any games. Prefered his signing of Alex Revell over Marc Richards, and while Revell wasn't bad, he was exactly the same type of player as Marc and only a year younger.

I'm not sure you can say that.... yet!

Or if you do, compare our position with Stevenage in the table who went for the completely new line-up.

Game 10

(https://i.postimg.cc/Qx83yqFq/Game-10.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

I thought tonight's result might raise Brady up a bit but no. Guess that shows what a good job the other managers had done up to this point.

It seems as if the bar is rather high for many people on here.
I reckon the managers are all pretty similar, they've all been through the same coaching schemes, which are pretty rigorous and not like Level 1 and 2 many on here have dozed through.
Football is a simple game and tactically there's not much genius required. Practically all managers at pro level have been reasonable footballers. They've lived and breathed football since they were around eight so there's not much your average football fan can teach them about the game.
It's simply a question of the board taking a gamble on a manager and hoping the gamble he then makes with the recruitment and selection of players, then the tactics, comes off time after time. 
Jon Brady and his team are doing great guns but there's going to be a time when the form dips and people will inevitably be calling for their heads. Let's hope that's not for a long time and the chairman stays strong so we can avoid the merry-go-round we've been enduring.

I’ll gladly take you up on that offer. We’ll sort something 🍺

You missed luck Larry, it plays a vital role. Being lucky doesn't guarantee you a successful season but being unlucky guarantee's you wont have one.

Revell did okish but the rest if we look at their achievements after us, I think we can definitely agree that none of them should have been paid a professionals footballers wage.

Absolutely terrible signings

That's a good point, whilst it obviously evens out over time, an extended run of bad luck could easily end a manager's contract.
When it reverts to the norm the new one in gets the credit with the notorious "new manager bounce"

We were very unlucky last season with injuries. Go figure!

(https://i.postimg.cc/wBf2mFLD/Game-10.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Brady slips below Gorman!

12 Game mark.

(https://i.postimg.cc/J793B7V3/Game-10.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Brady has ominously near identical record with Bowen!

He does. Bowen is just starting on a 10 match run when he loses only 1 game, winning 7 of them. Lets hope Brady is up to the task.

A costly equaliser for Brady, he now has an identical record in League 1 after 13 games as Keith Curle. He has also dropped a place (13th) in the all-Time managers list.

(https://i.postimg.cc/gj6vTKfk/Game-10.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Oh Dear. 14 games gone and now even Curle has a better record than Brady.

Yes but, don't forget what a massive budget Curle had, how he had the momentum from an automatic promotion, how he wasn't playing in front of a half-finished stand and you cant compare managers from different eras, I mean who is alive today that witnessed Curle's season in league 1? Oh, hang on.......

Anyway we all agreed, whatever happens this season NOTHING will be Brady's fault. What a fortunate position to be in for the Australian.

 (https://i.postimg.cc/bNRZ7pBC/Game-10.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Panic, panic, panic, quick let's get shot of Brady and appoint Joey Barton before another club snap him up.

Look, everybody said whatever happens this season, we should stick with Brady. Now stop calling for his head and start getting behind the team.

It’s just like Groundhog Day, we get promoted, owners give the manager a piśs poor budget we are in the relegation zone in Jan, money is given to strengthen, then they sack the manager and we are relegated rinse and repeat.

Yeah, you think we'd be used to it by now. Don't normally come straight back down though and I think there must be 4 worse teams than ourselves. With just one decent striker/poacher I think we'd be midtable now. Only knowing our luck, he'd get injured on his debut.

Exeter seem to be trying to help us out, Fleetwood keep winning as do Wigan, we desperately need a win from somewhere.

Difficult to find too many positives but we can’t have lost so many games by the odd goal before. We seem to be in every game. With a slightly fitter squad (and cutting out silly suspensions) we’ve got to have the edge on 4 other teams. Another positive is that JB must be miles from getting the sack, we don’t want that, especially as we’ll still have the same bunch of players.

Yep, little point in sacking Brady unless some billionaire took over and wanted to bring a star man in. Our results aren't very good and Brady isn't doing very well but you have to question who would do any better under the circumstances? Brady is safe I reckon, unless we get to that point near the end of the season when we need the boost a new manager may bring to save us. Similar to what they tried with Austin that nearly paid off. Doesn't always work.

I think an interesting chapter in this table is approaching fast, the time when some of these managers get sacked. Crerand in 7 games, Gorman in 8, Curle in 12. It honestly wouldn't surprise me if Brady still has a worse return than 1 or maybe 2 of them at that point. Still think he'll be safe though, unlikely that many fans will be calling for his head as they were in the other cases and with the current record crowds and the money rolling in, can't see the Chairman being under any pressure to make a change.

So, we reached the 15th game of the campaign, a third of the season gone and Brady now has only Crerand behind him with a worse start to our first season back in League 1. Crerand was truly awful but even he won his 16th game so Brady better hope we don't lose our home game with Burton or this will officially become our worst start.

More worryingly for me, we've now just 1 point from our last 5 matches, our worst run of form since 2016, a 5 game sequence where we had 3 different managers at the helm, Page, Wilkinson & Edinburgh.

(https://i.postimg.cc/Ss95Swwx/Game-10.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

"Doing the same thing over and over and expecting different outcomes is the definition of insanity" i.e. sacking managers as soon as the going gets tough.

Time to get behind JB IMO

Blimey, in all honesty I thought things were bad but I didn't for a minute think they were that bad.

It looks like Brady has been found out.

Priority must be to get an experienced head alongside him to do all the coaching, management, scouting and PR duties.

This is a surprise to me but you could hardly be more wrong.

Crerand was sacked, club was in a mess, ran by a committee, we were relegated.
Carr was sacked AFTER we were relegated.
Atkins was sacked after we were relegated, Wilson got us promoted again that season.
Wilson was sacked, Broadhurst retained our League 1 status that season.
Gorman was sacked, Gray retained our League 1 status that season.
Page was sacked, Edinburgh retained our League 1 status that season.
Curle was sacked, and Brady became the ONLY manager to replace somebody on that list and NOT save us from relegation.

But lets not forget he's passionate about the club.

That wasn't the point. It is about not sacking a manager when the going gets tough. After his success across two previous seasons, that buys him plenty of time IMO.
I'd go as far as saying there is absolutely no point in sacking him at all unless there are significant changes elsewhere.
He has proven that he can run a successful L2 outfit (playing good football), which is as far as our aspirations seem to stretch.

Sorry, I thought your point was "Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results is the definition of insanity" I was just pointing out that in the case of sacking the manager, the normal result is we survive that season in League 1 with the new man in charge. Only Brady failed to do that.

A good and most welcome win today kept Brady off the foot of the table and the good news is now that he can't get caught by Crerand as he only gets 1 more point in his final 6 games. We've also continued with this strange stat where we didn't win in our first 4 games, then won the next 2. Then it was a 5 game winless run, then we won 2. Then we didn't win in 6 but have won our next game today. Should mean we'll beat MK Dons though I wish it was the Cambridge game up next, I think we'd all rather win that one (I'm sure we will).

(https://i.postimg.cc/5NjP9CwC/Game-10.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

As I said, I post these stats whether we win, lose or draw. It's up to the manager and the team to make them look better, not me.

It was around this time that Curle tailed off completely. In the league, he hadn't won since the 15th game of the season, lost his next two 4-0 and would only go onto win 1 more game before getting sacked in February.

Interestingly of the four managers that went on to be sacked in the table, three of them, like Brady won their 16th game. None of them won any of their next three games. Seems like this time of the year can be quite decisive. Should also mean we see Brady start to climb this table.

What I would find more interesting is how strikers from our previous promoted teams compare to Sam who has already notched 9, I doubt if any would have as many.

I can only think of Jamie Forrester 'stepping up'...

I still don't consider Sam to be a striker though...

To be honest, I don't think all that many stayed after promotion. That's from memory, I don't know. You could look on Soccerbase I suppose.

Marvo, can you just let me know with your magic spreadsheets and stats if it’s likely we will stay up please?

Please advise your definition of a striker as after his strikers goal last Saturday it seemed to be a good example?

Nippy, agile, leading from the front, goal poachers...e.g. Danny Hylton or Tyreece Simpson.  ;)

I think the Hoskins we've got now would have been scoring even more if he was paired with Bayo as a front two.
If he had discovered this form earlier he was capable of being a potent centre forward. He could have been our little Tony Cottee, although I doubt we'd still be seeing him in a Cobblers shirt.

Think we've had this debate a fair bit recently! Id class him as a versatile attacking player who can play in a variety of positions.

We've got 4 strikers as far as I see it. Bowie, Appere, Hylton and Simpson.

Whether they are individually good at their jobs is I guess subjective!

My definition of a striker is someone who predominantly plays down the middle of the pitch in the final third whose job is primarily too score goals. Maybe that's a bit 'old school' but hey ho!

Regardless of what I think though, he is without question our best finisher and also (as proven over a number of years) the best player at getting in the right positions.

I think wide in a front3 suits him best. In my opinon, only Appere is decent at playing down the middle. Bowie huffs and puffs a lot but 5 goals in nearly 18 months is not anywhere near a good enough return for your main target man.

If fit, Id select Hoskins/Appere/Pinnock as our front 3 every single game. With a view too bringing Bowie on. Then in January looking to bring in another centre forward so we could mix things up and play a capable front2 pairing if needed/planB.

Id send Simpson back to Huddersfield and try and cut a deal with Hylton. And yeah...this is me playing football manager. Im not saying its easy to do this stuff in the real world!

Thanks for your opinion on a striker, it is appreciated! Have highlighted your definition; for me many of his goals have come in the final third at a 45° angle from centre of the goal? Need somebody on here to post the areas he was positioned with all 9 goals!

Again going to say it. Surprised at the stick Brady getting.

Back Brady.

Felt we deserved to off beaten Orient, deserved something at Shrewsbury and BR. And if that of happened. Comfortable in top half. 😁

Back Brady. 😁

Now that's starting to look better.

(https://i.postimg.cc/9Xy80z9D/Game-10.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Brady getting into calmer waters now.

(https://i.postimg.cc/KcByrC3Y/Game-10.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

You forget how good the majority of the Wilson 2000-01 season was. Losing 10 places in the last 9 games.

Slight setback for Brady today, he gets caught by John Gorman. Strangely Gorman was sacked three games after the point because of a poor start. This feels anything but that at the moment.

(https://i.postimg.cc/1XPZgZqH/Game-10.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

The bar is rather lower for Brady than it was for Gorman or Page.
Mind you wasn't the sacking of Gorman more of a case of releasing him considering his personal issues?

His mind certainly wasn't on the job, I think his wife had died. I thought we were a tad hasty, though he was replaced by Stuart Gray, possibly our most underrated manager.

20 games gone and Brady after 4 wins in 5 has is comfortably midtable.

(https://i.postimg.cc/TwG874Sx/Game-10.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

In game 19 Bowen was down as finished 8th and on 26pts, in game 20 Bowen is down as finished 18th with 29pts

Yeah sorry, was in a rush. The positions dont move automatically like the rest of the table.

Thanks ; please consider correcting Table 20 for future reference! At the behest of the Bowen family!

Done.

Good Lad!

Brady remains middle of the pack.

(https://i.postimg.cc/4yKZcLCr/Game-9.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

This is the final table for Pat Crerand who was sacked at this point.

22 games gone and isn't amazing how close this table is? It seems almost every manager has us round about this position at this time of year of our first season back in the third tier. To think Brady who it feels like it working wonders is only 5th best out of 8. That's amazing.

Anyway after losing Pat Crerand last week, this week its the turn of John Gorman to be shown the door. And then there were 7.

(https://i.postimg.cc/SRtgtfKn/Game-9.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

I just took a look where we were in the table after 22 games in the corresponding seasons.

Graham Carr & Ian Atkins both had us in 6th place.
Kevin Wilson 8th.
Rob Page was in 15th.

So we've reached the half-way stage and its quite remarkable how at this point the top four have just one point separating them. Brady is then equal with Page, with Curle adrift (he's got three games left until he is shown the door).

It is strange how Brady has gained so many plaudits this season for how well he has done but in truth, he's a couple of wins behind the majority of our managers at this point. I wish somebody could explain the difference with how Brady is viewed as against our former managers at this level. For example Wilson ends up 18th but he's 5 points better off then Brady at this point. I'm sure there must be a rational reason.

(https://i.postimg.cc/pybqj1R8/Game-9.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

 

I think it is a couple of things, one is that he really does look like he wants it - there is passion there and we all love a bit of passion.

The other thing is that as a new manager he is an underdog and not only that, he is our underdog. He has come through our coaching ranks and therefore, he is one of our own. That means a lot. He is not a journeyman manager, nicking a living, he is living the dream. We'd all love a go at managing The Mighty Cobblers, he is doing it and generally doing it well.

Go on, I have got a third one. He connects with us, the supporters. You really see it at the away games, no slinking off down the tunnel at full time, he is there showing genuine appreciation to those who have made the effort to follow our team. I think this third one is very linked to the first two.


Anymore explanations of life, the universe or anything Marvo, just ask and I'll invent some bølløcks to tell you. Try to avoid football questions though, I don't know jack about that. Apart from the above obviously.

That's all good. I think he's doing a great job too, at least better than anticipated. I guess what it all means is that makes you realise what a fantastic job Atkins, Bowen & Carr did. I really doubt Brady will be able to match them, though obviously I hope he ends up higher than Wilson did, mainly due to a terrible finish. Did you know on March 3rd 2001 when we beat Bristol Rovers Wilson had us in 9th?

There is no doubt in that. To be honest, anyone who takes us up must at some point have done a fantastic job. It's not that managing us is like being born with a silver spoon in the mouth.

All those three mentioned above did something very special in footballing terms. I reckon Wilder's name would be with them too if he hadn't jumped ship.

See what I mean.

I keep putting these tables up, Brady keeps winning and I think, now we'll see a difference. Its staggering just how well our mangersv have done at this level at their first attempt.

(https://i.postimg.cc/ZY3Mqrm6/Game-9.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Brady just 2pts behind Carr (finished 6th) and 3 behind Atkins (4th). It's game on, but not for Keith Curle, just one more match before he's shown the exit.

(https://i.postimg.cc/YqpWw6Px/Game-9.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

This is an interesting comparative perspective.

It's not just about points though:the quality of the football is different gravy under Brady. The standard of football we're playing at times far surpasses anything served up under Brady's predecessors.

There's no way on earth Atkins' side would have been capable of producing a slick, back-to-front counter-attacking passing move like that second goal at Lincoln. Brady is delivering on his promise to produce 'bums off seats football'. He has us playing fluent pass and move counter-attacking football with one of the smallest budgets in the league and an ongoing injury crisis. On top of that, he's got a genuine passion and connection with the town. We need to enjoy this while it lasts.

This is interesting stuff. If memory serves correctly, although maybe completely wrong, Broadhurst was no2 to Wilson. When Broadhust left the wheels came off. As I say I might be completely wrong, I was spending a lot of time back in pubs back then! When Calderwood went to Southampton and we played Derby a day or 2 later, I had major concerns, and then we got knocked out of the cup! 😬

Since then though, we have generally been extremely good. Personally for me Marc Leonard is fast becoming one of my favourite players… of all time(since 1992)! Brady has the team playing some great stuff and I get excited every Saturday now, and although I’m kind of glad we’re not playing today to give the players a well deserved rest, I’m genuinely gutted that we aren’t playing!

Brady is clearly passionate about the club and town, I’m not a fan of The Saints or rugby in general, but the fact Brady wants the sporting teams to do well speaks volumes about his love of the town. He’s an extremely good coach, seems like a top bloke, I’ve heard quite a few people say he will always make time to talk to people about Cobblers. I would love to see him get up to second spot in the all time matches for us and creep on towards Mr Bowen.

In short I’m loving this period as a cobblers fan. I actually hope we don’t get in the playoffs this year as it just shortens the summer too much and feel the club would benefit more in the long run if we had nothing to play for come match 43/44.

As far as this transfer window goes, keeping Brady is top priority. Up until a couple of weeks ago I wouldn’t have been fussed if Simpson went back but have to hand it to him, he’s shown amazing strength of character and it’s great to see him showing his physical attributes and making a difference in the matches. Bowie being on fire might generate some interest in him but think he’ll stay. As I said about Leonard, we can all see he is an incredible talent and i feel would walk into most championship teams and if we can keep him for the rest of the season it would be a major coup!

Anyway, apologies for the long message, I’m new here and just wanted to voice my opinion, and appreciation for the club. Up the Cobblers!!

A lot of wisdom there. We need a few more wise folk on here to counter balance the likes of myself and one or two others.

There was a lot of talk about Broadhurst being the brains of the operation, which was underwhelming when he returned as manager and failed to replicate that early form with Wilson. (although think we were on a shoestring budget by that ponit)

So we've reached the point where Keith Curle & Rob Page got the sack. And then there were 5.

(https://i.postimg.cc/SxGhztm7/Game-9.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)post image online (https://postimages.org/)

Can't be much further before page is sacked I wouldn't think

This is getting quite exciting now. Brady has drawn level with Wilson and is just one point behind Carr who finished 6th, high enough now for a play-off spot, and 2 pts behind Bowen (8th) and Atkins (4th = Play-offs). If they could do it from this point, why can't Brady? How anybody can write this team off is beyond me.

(https://i.postimg.cc/wvB8FkkR/27.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Amazing effort from our Jon.

Thank you Marvo, enjoy this content. What points did the top three finish their seasons on?

Atkins 71, Carr 73 and Bowen *51

*That was when it was 2pts for a win, that would equate to 71.

What would be impressive (a dream promotion aside) is if he could cement our place in L1 for 2-3 seasons, where others have failed before. That’d be progress for starters. It’d be nice not to lose/sack a manager for a change. I’m sure he could move up the list of long standing managers.

71 points must be one of the lowest ever totals for 4th! I think we will need a fair few more than that to have a chance of playoffs, especially given the points total of the current 3rd - 6th placers... doing some quick maths suggest they are on for 80+ points if they keep at the same rate.

That means we'll likely need at least 12 wins from 19 to have a chance. Whereas it doesn't seem likely, the way we are going, it's certainly not inconceivable. Definitely looking up rather than down for now.

Thanks John.

I have to say I’d forgotten how well the Wilson season started. It must have properly derailed towards the end!

Had a lot of "seasoned professionals" in the side and from rough memory they pretty much all knocked off once relegation was avoided (50 points)

Just checked
W1 D2 L7 of last ten games.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000%E2%80%9301_Northampton_Town_F.C._season#Results_summary

Did our downturn also not pretty much coincide with Steve Howard leaving for pennies? Even though he wasn't yet prolific he was showing massive signs of improvement & I remember him & Forrester beginning to develop a very promising understanding that season.

Those details are featured on this very site. Just saying.

Yes

Brady sinks back down.

(https://i.postimg.cc/wMG6Dr8B/28.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

With a couple of quality additions we could make the play offs.

There you go, edited it for you.

Not a lot of change, Brady still 5th.

(https://i.postimg.cc/bvkspqX9/29.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Made!

Brady still behind Wilson who finished 18th at this point. For information purposes, Wilson ends up with 57pts.

(https://i.postimg.cc/FzQbNTn7/Game-9.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

I know Page will be sacked soon but how many points did we end that season with to finish 16th

I'm pretty sure he was sacked a while ago, thought marvo would have taken him off by now

53

Sinks is a bit extreme.... He's 4 PTS behind the best.

These "raw numbers"..... Whilst you seem to think they're the only factors that matter, they only partially tell the story. So let me embellish with some things that whilst you'll no doubt claim are subjective, are also things to consider.

Imho, Carr, Atkins and Wilson all took stronger squads into the third tier. We had some ex top tier players in Atkins squads. This also suggests a bigger playing budget, adjust for inflation of course. Also, I don't recall and of these squads being so harshly affected by injury as Bradys squad.

I can't comment on Bowen as I was born during our rise and fall.

Pure subjection. As I've said so many times before I only show the actual facts of the situation, so why you blame me for the resulting table I'll never fathom. Perhaps you think I should only produce the tables that would show the club in a good light? Happy clapper?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_the_messenger

Thanks Deepcut. Shoot the messenger indeed.

I started this thread in August after just three games when nobody knew where it would take us. So to suggest I am somehow manipulating this table in order to, well what, what am I supposed to be trying to do? That allegation is pure stuff of nonsense.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misuse_of_statistics

I don't see any issues with these FACTS. Of course there will always be nuances of players, opposition, injuries, refs, which way the wind is blowing. Bowen aside, they are teams who yo-yo'd between 3/4, 1/2.
Where we need to break the mould is S2,3 and beyond. JB may well up on a table all of his own because if we get to second, third, fourth season in L1 he won't have a lot of opposition.

On the Hoskin's stats. If they continued then you'd have to consider that we are better off without him. However, somehow I think they'll level out across a larger sample of data. On the flip side he will have been involved in most of our wins over his career.

I think most people realise that using small samples of data to over emphasise a point is usually the issue in any walk of life. However, I think we have enough data to expect that we may struggle next season.

Marvo is a computer, he does not compute.

Statistics, if collected correctly from the information available, are FACTS.
The use and presentation of those statistics is a subjective interpretation by the author, therefore is open to and invites debate.

“There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics.” - Mark Twain.

;D ;D

That's all well and good Melbourne IF I was presenting statistics but I'm not, just giving you the facts, it is up to you the reader to conclude from them what you will.

My conclusion is that after 30 games Brady isn't doing quite as well as the other four managers in the table but he is doing a lot better than those that were sacked before getting to this point. Are there mitigating circumstances, arguably of course, there are always different circumstances. For example Carr had the heart of his team ripped out, just losing Hill & Morley, how many goals did that cost us?

Anyway does this table show that Brady a bad manager? Don't be so daft. Is he doing a good job? Of course he is.

Let's hope we beat Orient tomorrow. If we do then Brady will go above Wilson and level with Bowen. What you'd accuse me of then god only knows.

At the moment, of the original nine managers listed, he's fifth having 'seen off' four of them.

Can’t have a laugh on here anymore.

As I said, I've "embellished" though if indeed past eras playing budgets were higher and injury lists shorter then are those not facts too? Again, I feel the need to challenge what these charts and tables provide in the way of insights. Any base numbers that are "facts" can be extrapolated or hypothesised over to try and either positively or negatively paint a picture. And in your case by showing Brady as bottom and providing your own embellishment in the form of "sinking" it feels like you're choosing to paint a darker picture.

And if you still want to wriggle and claim that you're just showing factual numbers and the reader can decide, then I decide this, there's no useful insight or intelligence to be gained here. Presenting veiled (thinly or otherwise) negativity about manager and / or top scorer in charts or tables doesn't give them any more credibility

 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Brady is bottom because that's where he is in this chart. I have no control over the results. Like I said previously, if we were to win tonight he would go above Wilson and level with Bowen. How could that possibly be described as me being negative? You're floundering. This chart was started after just 3 games and nobody, not even the great WasRambo knew where it would lead.

I’m not sure where the argument is?
He’s 4 points off the ‘title’ all without a Benji or McGoldrick, not forgetting those who have fallen by the wayside. All he has is Hoskins who is injured and only scores pointless goals.
Outstanding stuff all things considered. In terms of keeping the league going on a rolling basis he may well win it via elimination.

and there lies the rub. There isn't one.

By the way the only manager you'd lose would be Wilson, as he didn't make it through a second full season. The other three did so Brady would join an exclusive club. Nobody has ever made it to 4 seasons in League 1 so I guess that's would be the holy grail.

Good point, if he emulates Bowen...well, he won't.  ;D

If he attracts good luck; have a gut feeling he maybe capable of emulating Bowen. We have done it before so it becomes our yardstick.

I admire the spirit Evers. I have no idea what the landscape was in the 60's of reaching the top flight compared to finding the Prem today. I know there was the famous quote comparing us to England winning the World Cup. I guess if non-league Luton can do it anything is possible.
It is difficult to think outside of the history we know and current standing as a club.

No comment.

(https://i.postimg.cc/J0j2JTmv/31.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)how to find nearest gas station (https://gasstation-nearme.com/)

No comment either..... They're on your "graph thread"

No they are not, this is Points, the graph is position. This may surprise you but there's a difference.  ::)

For somebody who claims to want fine detail, you're not very perceptive.

Are the two not correlated then?

No. Of course not. One season a team will be relegated with a set amount of points, the next they could be safe.
The Cobblers were relegated with 33pts from the first division in 1965/6. They would have been safe the previous and following year with that points tally. I was told that at the time that was the highest points tally ever to be relegated from the top flight but I haven't checked if that was true.

Note:  No it's not true, Leeds were relegated with 34 points in 1959/60.

So points gained has no correlation to success (or failure)

Ok professor...

Correlation? To a high degree but absolute, no.

For example in our division.

2016/7: Port Vale with 49pts = Relegated.
2017/8: Oldham with 50 pts = Relegated.
2018/9: Plymouth with 50pts = Relegated.

However skipping the Covid year.

2020/1: Wigan with 48pts = Safe.
2021/2: Fleetwood with 40pts = Safe.
2022/3: Cambridge with 46 pts = Safe.

I'm surprised you hadn't understood this.

I understand fine thanks. And thanks for proving my point. 50 PTS or less will usually leave you in the bottom six and more often than not, relegated, thus proving that a low number of PTS correlates to a lack of success, sometimes terminal. Feel free to do this for high amounts of points gained. My guess, as that's all I'm apparently capable of, is you'll find they often promote teams or at least get them in the playoffs.

Again you're trying to make me look uneducated by introducing some form of absolute correlation into the argument when you know full well that wasn't what I said at all and that's not how the game works. There is most definitely is a correlation between points gained and success or failure but in football it can never be universally absolute but it is always relative to expectations, eg. If we get 52pts this season and stay up, for us that's a relative success. If it's a club like Derby (yes I know they're well past that already) getting 52pts would be viewed by them as abject failure.

I'm surprised you hadn't understood this....

Still trying to teach your grandma to suck eggs.

I get people are into all sorts of gender stuff these days but you're not my grandma. However, I don't wish to offend so happy to call you grandma from this point forward...

Oh dear, yet another thing to add to the long list of things you don't understand.

Yeah, he's done it! Brady passes Wilson and I reckon this is how this table will finish, though it's not beyond the realms of possibility that Brady could catch Bowen.

(https://i.postimg.cc/tTtqKwvR/31.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Just thought I'd add, Wilson was 9th at this point, even with less points.

Imagine how this would look if all those odd goal defeats had gone the other way or even been draws. If only....

Oglethorpe is always talking about squeaky bum time but the amount of our games that finish by the odd goal, I reckon it would be easier to talk about when it isn't squeaky bum time.

Saturday 90+5 mins I said to my mate. "Amazing I cant remember the last time we had 2 minutes left in the game and we are safe".

Brady drops to the bottom again below Wilson, meanwhile the other three are putting some distance between themselves and the bottom two.

(https://i.postimg.cc/nrQ8tXs7/33.png) (https://postimages.org/)

Fifth of the nine who started.
You left the '18th' in alongside Brady. ;)

I know and I couldn't be arsed to change it.

Can't compare the others, its like for like and they didn't make it this far. Nobody objected to when they were included, kept Brady off the bottom.

You could say he is in an elite list as the others are getting relegated. Let's see how long he stays in the table if extended into next season.

I'm happy to do a second season in the third tier table for you next season. Of course you do know I'll be accuse of showing Brady in a bad light, such is the affect I will have on the results.

You can only serve up the facts. The rest is personal interpretation.

And the FACT is that some people interpret the statistics as Marvo being able to affect the results.

 If only he was a real supporter who goes to all the games and therefore wants us to win, we'd have been promoted by Christmas.

But he went to Derby and look at how that turned out.

Good point. You should be encouraging me to stay away from games.

Quite remarkable how similar these 5 managers are. Brady still bringing up the rear but just 5 points separate them all and remember, two of these managers finished in what are now play-off places.

(https://i.postimg.cc/XvHzfn3v/31.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

35 games gone and not much has changed, the top three starting to build a gap which has to be expected given where they finished.


(https://i.postimg.cc/s2yQ7TBY/27.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Its an interesting read each week, this.

What I will say. I didn't witness the Bowen era. But our current side looks the most 'league1-ish' team I've seen from a Cobblers side. It just looks soooo comfortable at this level. Carrs team started off brilliantly but once Morley was sold (Adcock was a very decent part of that deal for us to be fair) we did start to look like we were relying on momentum and desire more so than ability, as the season went on. Atkins team was ALL ABOUT desire, passion etc.

Brady's lot actually looks like it belongs at this level. Id say our current side is the most technically gifted side we've had at this level in the last 50 years. That I believe will be Brady's legacy. Building a team that can actually play football in the 3rd tier, which we've perhaps never really had before, with the exception (I assume) of Bowens team in the 60's. Grays team relied on the physicality of Bayo and Hubertz rather than actual technical ability.

Is that because of the proliferation of foreign players at the top end of the game? Bearing in mind that we tend to rely upon British players, are we getting those who would have been the standard to have played in the old First Division, as in the top tier of the pyramid?

Im not so sure. I think there is a bit of that. But squads these days are double the size than they were in the 80's. Probably treble/quadruple in the premiership.

Remember the old team photos? There wouldn't be more than about 18 in any of them!

This table not looking so good now for Brady.

(https://i.postimg.cc/pdy2wj59/27.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Could add the running position on JB as 12th looks better than 18th. Points are relative to the strength of the comparative season, plus he's left a list of failures in his wake.

Well Wilson was 9th after 36 games so don't count your chickens.

I think the point is, and just for the sake of balance, people are claiming that Brady has done an exceptional job this season, this table says there is nothing exceptional about it.

he is doing a good job, some would say excellent job based on the resources he has.

in actual points terms, or in managerial league position comparison terms, as marvo says, he isnt pulling up any trees

Do you believe the others had more resources? I honestly don't remember that as being the case.

You're right in one respect Marvo, exceptional is not the right word. However, I'd say resource wise Brady is at the bargain basement end. I'm pretty sure players like Taylor, Gabbiadini, Forrester, Smith, etc. Were (comparatively) far more "marquee" than anything Brady has. Even the likes of Kirk, McGleish and so on required more investment than Brady has been supported with.

I'd say Brady is doing a solid job position wise. We'd all have taken where we are now back in August, more so back in September after a less than great start.

On reflection, you might be right. I've just looked at Kevin Wilson team in 2001/2.

Minimum league Appearances 23

1) Keith Welch
2) John Frain
3) Richard Green
4) Ian Sampson
5) Chris Hope
6) Dave Savage
7) Chris Hargreaves
8) James Hunt
9) Jamie Forrester
10) Marco Gabbiadini
11) John Hodge

12) Steve Howard

That was some team. Leonard would get in it but I'm not sure any of our other current players would.

Context (as always) is everything.
Are we saying that these are the only 5 managers still in role at this stage in our ENTIRE history?
If so, you could say that they all did/are doing an 'expectational' job in the context of our time as a club.

In fact, you could say that Bowen is the only one who stands apart from the others, hence why he has a stand named after him, albeit Atkins got a PO final.
It's not beyond the realms of possibility that Bowen and Brady may be the only names left on that list but that remains to be seen.

It is also testament to enjoying the good times when we get them, as with that list we don't get them very often.

Impossible to compare like for like resources and squads over various years but we haven't got any reals stars like Morley, Gabbiadini, Holmes, Bayo etc. I guess the likes of Leonard and Hoskins are today's closest equivalents. It also feels a buck to the trend of not having a really, really top keeper for the level.

Yep it was. We've had some decent players in recent years.... Granted a lot at the wrong end of their careers, but The likes of Ian Taylor, Eoin Jess, Sean Dyche, even Matty Taylor.... All quality when their legs allowed. Sadly for Brady, his version is Hylton, a player who whilst now will always be tainted from our perspective, had heremained fit, could just have easily been revered in the same way as some of the aforementioned.

Unless he was signed crocked (which would be unforgivable and a black mark for Brady) you could argue we and Brady have been a tad unlucky.

Just for clarification, did any of those players you mention play for us in the third tier? I know Ian Taylor didn't.

Pretty sure Ian Taylor did. 06/07?

Just checked, Taylor played 33 times in L1. Kirk and McGleish in the same squad. And what would Brady give for a back five of Pedj, Crowe, Chambers, Doig and Holt? And Harper in nets!

This was the Gorman team. Shame that era never saw itself out properly.

My mistake then, I thought Calderwood brought him in for just the one season before he retired. Apologies.

To be honest, we all dream of a team of Andy Holts.

Jason Crowe absolute class.

I think that he's doing alright.... ;)

First time around

I don't know the facts but resigning Leonard and Bowie must have incurred some considerable investment?

Just 9 games to go.

(https://i.postimg.cc/HkJ1Rqf5/27.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

We're now at the point where Wilson crashes and burns, losing 7 of the final 9 games of the season, winning just once.

Be interesting to see who is in the team tonight if we don’t want history to repeat.

I would like to see the history of 28th November repeating itself.

This has now got all the hallmarks of the Wilson season. Good job we have a little buffer.

(https://i.postimg.cc/FH12xcK4/27.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

I reckon we'll get the 8 points from the last 8 games to surpass Wilson's record. He only got 4 points in the final 8 games.

Well we're running at a rate (just under) of a point a match from our last 11 fixtures so you could well be right. I've been waiting to post the graph when Brady finally overtakes Wilson in regard position in the table but that still looks three or four games off.

For what it’s worth, I think history could repeat itself and we will be relegated next season without considerable financial support, the loss of Sherring, Leonard, Tyreece, Burge and Bowie will be not cheap to find replacements coupled with the fact that Wrexham, Stockport will replace Carlisle and Fleetwood and possibly Sheffield Wednesday also in our league it’s going to be tough.

Either way we are not going to finish far off the Wilson season. All eyes on whether we can do the more unusual feat of sticking around next season.

My heart says we can. My head says not a cat in hell's chance. Can we find four worse clubs next season? Maybe.

I think we've overachieved this season. That's unlikely to be repeated.

Ref your table regarding prominent Managers and their progress. The Cobblers had two seasons in the old League 3 prior to promotion to the now Championship. Which season are you basing Bowens progress on?Have always assumed it was based on Bowens first season in the league 3?

It is, we finished 8th, that's what the chart says. It's right there in front of you. It's even in the title of the thread.

I thought as much; just surprised that the Gap is now 10pts with Bowen!

Bowen gets 11 more points from his last 8 games so unless Brady pulls his socks up that gap is going to get even wider.

This is not looking very good now.

(https://i.postimg.cc/yxKQVWhv/27.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Wait a minute…..most fans think we are having a fantastic season…… ;D

I was waiting to produce this graph again once Brady overtakes Wilson but I now realise that may be a forlorn hope as Wilson was in 15th after 45 games, he dropped three places on the final day of the season.

(https://i.postimg.cc/8cfwh1jW/New-Map.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

It's being set up nicely for a dismal return to league two next season.

Its amazing to me that almost everybody seems to believe Brady has orchestrated an exceptional season, yet since the 12 game mark he has never has us higher in the table than the previous four managers in their first season in League 1 after getting us promoted.

Remember the only other manager who got us promoted and stayed to manage in the third tier was Keith Curle and to say his promotion had somewhat special circumstances attached to it is an understatement.

I just want to add, I don't think Brady has done a bad job, but at best its bang average.

They are entitled to their opinion even if it contradicts yours. Unless of course I have misjudged your comment………again!

Maybe they all had exceptional seasons then and its a mark of how dire we are as a club?
I don't think that btw.
As others have said you need to take into account all kinds of things before you can make genuine comparisons between Brady and the others. For instance and seeing as it's to topical, how did the goalkeepers compare, who did we have for those other seasons?

By Jove Evers, you're on form this morning.  :)

My opinion.  I've enjoyed looking at the stats all season as I do think it's a fair reflection of how JB has fared against other managers attepting the same task.

What I have consistently done though when making the comparison is to remind myself I am doing so against some of the best seasons/managers the club has ever had!  I also make allowance for the fact I'm pretty sure none of the previous managers had to face the level of first team players missing through injury for pretty much the whole season.  I personally just don't think you can simply ignore that.

I agree with others that this season is in danger of being tarnished if we simply let the season die in the way we curently are.

However I can say hand on heart I've loved some of the football we have played this season and there were times where I really felt we were playing some of the best football at this level we ever have.  With less injuries I really wonder just how good we could have been.

Well with all due respect, that's irrelevant as it was Brady who signed those keepers.

The squads Brady and Carr have/had at their disposal is like chalk and cheese.

With all due respect I'd disagree!
Do you know what those managers had at their disposal, both financially ot who was avaliable at the time?
Even if you gave all the managers the exact same set of players at the same time in their careers there would still be lots of other factors that could be bought into play. It would be a truer comparison but not without scrutiny.
Irrespective, i like what you're doing with this, it is interesting and I enjoy reading it.

The thing is with managers, if you cloned twenty Pep Guardiola, gave each one exactly the same budget and put them in charge of the twenty Premiership clubs, One Pep Guardiola would win the title, a handful of others would be lauded for their achievements, half a dozen would get the sack and three would be relegated. That's how stupid this whole argument is. Sometimes I think its all down to luck and being in the right place at the right time.

Spot on.

Pretty much, yeah.
There was probably a little more scope for individuality 30/40 years ago but these days everything (in life) has to work to
someone else's prescribed formula. Doubt Clough would get 5 yards in todays environment, no one would take a chance on him for a start.

Up until the last couple of weeks, I have been enjoying this season.
We haven't been exceptional, but we are doing a lot better than I thought that we would at the start of the season.
As long as we remain in this Division, the close season will be 'very interesting', probably for a long while, regarding the comings and goings in preparation for the 2024/25 season.

I agree that close season will be interesting. A lot may come down to the quality of loanees we attract.
The Hylton and Leonard wages alone give us options. Crucial window and no idea how we’ll match up next season. First target survival.

Amazingly, even after todays incredible and most welcome if unexpected victory over Derby, Brady is still a point behind Wilson.

(https://i.postimg.cc/SRCZhPf1/27.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Kevin gets just 3 more points from his last 6 games so surely Brady will overtake him now.

What Jon has done is finally catch Wilson up in regards position in the table. So one down, two to go.

(https://i.postimg.cc/y8tSmNH9/40-games.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

What's the logic in excluding the 2017, 2007 and 2021 seasons? If it's due to change of manager then obviously it's going to make Brady look comparatively worse as any poor season will always have a manager change.

'Bang average' is doing him a disservice, and shows how deceptive selective statistics can be. Obviously it's not been a good a season as Atkins, Carr or Bowen, but given they were 3 of the best seasons in the club's history then that's no surprise and a weird benchmark to compare against. 

With the resources at his disposal and the expectation going into the season, Jon has definitely overachieved this year and trying to downplay that is bizarre.

Here's another stat, this season we're on track for our highest placed finish in 15 years, and 15th highest in our 97 years in the Football League. (85th percentile)

We did compare the managers for as many games they were in control. How can you compare mangers that are not like for like? Brady has done better than all those in a similar position that were sacked, yet for all those that managed to stay the course, Brady is currently the worst of the 5, though hopefully he'll pass Wilson before the seasons end.

As for, "the resources at his disposal and the expectation going into the season", what a load of tosh. None of the managers had any resources and none of them were expected to do well going into their particular season. Apart from the Bowen promotion, i witnessed them all, don't try and rewrite history, or at least wait until those that lived through it are dead.

Brady has done well, better than most expected and nobody would claim any different but compared to the others in the table, managers that got the club promoted and continued to manage them throughout their first season in the third tier, his record is "bang average", well not even that, he'd have to have gained 60pts at this point to be "bang average".

Your follow-on post is a bit disingenuous? 97 years? How do you compare the Third division from 1920 to 1958 with today? Yes, technically it was the third tier, promotion would have got you into Division 2 but that "third Tier" was split between two divisions (North & South), 48 teams, so finishing 12th in one half would be akin to finishing 24th in one division of 48. A fairer thing to say would be that we have only been in the third tier since 1958/8 on 20 occasions, if Brady keeps us in 11th it will be our 6th highest finish, though if we were to drop a little, which is quite plausible as all the teams below us have games in hand, then it would likely to be our 8th best finishing position in those 20 occasions. Not bad.

Think its a fair comparison as its clear its just managers who had a full season. For example if you took it as all the games managed in League 1 then Brady would start with a relegation which would be harsh on him.

Really! Obviously the main component of resources at their disposal is the players at the club. Carr’s team were a force of nature and despite nearly getting 100 points and goals in their title win for me were only ever in third gear. So if we are just comparing their third tier campaigns the players each had when they finished their fourth tier campaigns were miles apart and despite Carr losing Hill I would have rather have had his players as a starting block than those Brady had.

Yes but Carr brought those players to the club in the same way Brady has his own team, apart from Hoskins of course who was already here but considering what a major influence he has become on the team and their success that hardly helps your argument.

Not at all, like I said it depends whether we are talking about their whole managerial reign or just their first season back. How well Carr did was purely based on the amazing work he had done prior to winning the league and the players he had previously bought in. Arguably post title win recruiting and that third tier campaign were a disappointment.

They found an egg when they were digging the foundations for Sixfields, it hatched and Sammy the imp was born, he’s been here ever fuçking since.

Perhaps there will be some more eggs found when the redevelopment work gets done. Oops, wrong thread.

Again, doesn't really help your argument. Carr's record does indeed include his disappointing final two seasons where we finished 20th and then followed that with relegation. Nevertheless his overall record is STILL better than Brady's, who has had two good seasons in the bottom tier and a successful season by all accounts this time round. Surprising that.

Again I’m not comparing Carr and Brady as cobblers managers in totality, we are just talking about that first full season in the third tier (clues in the title of the thread!), so their overall record is irrelevant. I was just comparing the two squads that finished their respective promotions from the fourth tier and thus the playing resources available to each going into that ‘first season back’. In isolation Carr went into the season with far better players (through previous great recruitment) and so expectation should be higher.

Given the importance the topic is given, what comparative budgets did the others have against the average in the respective seasons? I accept it might be a challenge to establish that figure but I would suggest that has a significant influence on any comparisons, as does the amount of game time lost to the squad by injury as a comparative. Whilst it’s an interesting snap shot, it doesn’t really prove or disprove too much in isolation.

It's not meant to, ALL these managers have suceeded just by keeping us in the thief tier. .maybe they all are/were exceptional. Of course if Brady keeps us up for two more seasons he may be the best if the lot, apart from Bowen of course.

Still be interesting to see the full picture though. I wonder if anyone previously had got us promoted with anything like the number of games lost to injury by the first team squad. It’s worth pointing out that Brady achieved all this in spite of committing a fair chunk of his budget on a marquee signing that has barely kicked a ball. Not necessarily anyone’s fault given his injury record was ok prior to signing, but for me that’s a fairly big consideration in any assessment.
It still surprises me that owners seem to base managerial decisions based on results alone. Maybe some don’t?

Melly,

If you are referring to Danny Hylton as the "marquee signing", then , as far as I can see his injury record before signing was pretty dreadful. Using Soccerbase as my source, here is his league record for Luton in the five seasons before we signed him.

2017-2018 Appearances 37 (2), Goals 21
2018-2019 Appearances  18(7), Goals 8
2019-2020 Appearances  2(9), Goals 0
2020-2021 Appearances  6(10), Goals 0
2021-2022 Appearances  5 (12), Goals 4

I don't think I need to say any more.

I'd imagine that if any thread where Hylton was signed was brought up, it would be pretty embarrassing for most posters commenting.
Without doubt the most disastrous signing in living memory for us in terms of outlay vs return, possibly ever.
The player equivalent of Gary Johnson.

Really, that's a surprise, I was told something entirely different. Just had a quick check on Wikipedia (so it must be true) and his total appearances are listed as 22 the season before we signed him?

That's true, I nearly had an orgasm when we signed him, and that was before the new syrup.

Wiki  doesn't break down between starts and sub appearances, so can be quite misleading. It can look like a player has played a lot of games, when it's all 97th minute off the bench.

I live in a village in Central Bedfordshire rammed to the gunnels with Luton Town supporters (there's also at least one MK Dons Season Ticket Holder).

They thought it was hilarious when we signed Danny on very good money (and 2 years) knowing of his injury issues. There's even an elderly guy who used to work in the village Co-op who looks very jaded these days whose eye's light up when I see him - "How's Danny getting on?", knowing he isn't getting on at all.

Its really hard to compare different era's as back in the 60's/70's/80's...even the 90's...it was much easier to come up with innovative tactics than it is these days. Everything now is so sterile and 'in line with budget' pretty much. You used to get many clubs going through the divisions or at least playing higher than their 'natural level', whatever that was at the time.

I took a random year - 1975 division1 table (I had no idea it was that year when Derby were champions so I wasn't trying to make us look good ha ha) - http://stats.football.co.uk/league_tables/1974_1975/first_division/index.shtml

Then compare that with the current top flight. Apart from Luton Town, every club is up there because they are either massive/pretty big or because they have been very well funded.

Sky and the 'premier league' changed everything. The gap financially now is so wide, and coupled with parachute payments it makes it almost impossible for a small club to really compete. IF Luton hadn't of gone up last season, they *might* have struggled financially big time given they were losing over 10 million a year without transfer fees being brought into the equation. They got lucky, winning on penalties. Fair play to them mind.

A glance across the 4 divisions shows that only Luton (prem) and Rotherham (championship) are 'at our kind of level' outside the bottom 2 divisions and its fair to say I amm basing that on support more than anything else. But (certainly in Lutons case) they are both bigger than us, but not by a margin that couldn't be closed if we were as successful as them. 

Across all 4 divisions I doubt theres any other club above us with a budget that is lower than ours. We are over achieving at the minute. Not by a massive amount, but we are certainly over achieving.

Only Carr and Atkins (in my time) could claim something similar. So Brady is without a doubt up there with them. When it comes to injuries, Atkins perhaps had the worst misfortune than any other one of our managers has had (even Brady!) the season we got relegated. Something like 13/14 ops if I recall? Which was really really unusual back in those times.

Atkins could also boast a signing almost as bad as Danny and financially on a par (certainly for the season he was here) - Paul Wilkinson! But given Danny has been here 2 years and hasn't scored a single goal...not even in pre-season when he even missed a couple of penalties...that takes some doing. It really couldn't of gone any worse. The sooner he fcuks orf the better. I wouldn't mind so much if he wasn't commentating for another team and celebrating a goal at the very point when we were losing 2-0 at Wycombe. Which in mind at least, shows he really doesn't give a sh1t!

I'm sure we'll get a similar treatment on a podcast in years to come.

From 32:50, I'm sure it's been on here before. Doesn't speaking highly about the club or fans....but he probably has a point on the fans.  :P What a d*ck.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4CAtt0RTSso

I think its fair to say his last season most of us fell out of love with football! Assume the manager he refers to is Martin Wilkinson.

On Hylton.

A strange signing when heralded as a marquee one! It appears that in the 2022/23 season he apparently played 26 games for Luton with a return of nil goals!  Clearly that season a lot of appearances came off the bench and may have been far from match fit. In hindsight we where all duped/conned in celebrating the services on an injury prone player, so was his fitness/injury record fully investigated prior to signing? In hindsight it appears there might or should be an investigation into the circumstances of the Hylton signing. Perhaps more controversially is the current chronic injury situation NTFC are facing; however as many other Clubs are facing the same issues a more conservative approach maybe required. Whatever the circumstances JP is doing a fine job and hope he continues in the same vein.

I read on the chron come the end of the season Brady will investigate the injury record again as it can't continue what will be different this year

Didn’t he say the same thing last year…..
In fairness nothing will change if we are forced to acquire players with awful injury records because we miss out on first choice options due to financial constraints and a constant inability to attract investment into the club.
Whilst I take on board other clubs also have injury problems there can’t be many clubs who sign so many previously injured players.

I think its a balance. There will be some potentially great players who we can get 'cheap' because of their injury record so its worth the gamble. It's a bit like taking a striker from non league, sometimes the gamble pays off and sometimes it doesn't.
Just feels at the moment we have too many in the squad who have an injury history and we should set a quota of sorts.

Without hindsight, Hylton is exactly the sort of player to take a gamble on. Yes his injury record wasn't great but has been there and done it so you get his dressing room influence as well. Just a shame he is still in Luton's dressing room and not ours.

Thanks for that mental image 😵‍💫

Thank you for thinking of me 😳

Paul McGregor has some nerve given he was absolutely s***ě for most of his time with us.

(https://i.postimg.cc/ZRRHx2dj/27.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)mouse test (https://keyboardtester.co/mouse-click-tester)

He's done it!

(https://i.postimg.cc/5NY0zz0R/27.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Finally! lol

🙌🏽🙌🏽🙌🏽

Who? Never heard of him, seems to have a massive chip on his shoulders, Cobbs reserves about his level.

He scored a screamer in a cup game, against QPR I think, otherwise he was anonymous

Last one of these from me, Brady can't be caught by Wilson now and can't catch Atkins so will finish a very honourable 4th.

(https://i.postimg.cc/7hs0ZPwt/27.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Next season maybe, tables from our second season in the third tier. Spoiler Alert. Bowen wins.

4th out of how many achieved promotion?

4th silly. They are the only 5 Cobblers managers to have achieved promotion and stuck around for the following campaign.

Sorry, I didn't phrase it very well

4th out of 9 who were on your table at the start of the thread - I looked back myself instead of being lazy like I was the first time.

Those others didn't get us promoted though so not really the same thing. You actually made a good point (though probably didn't mean to).

Mate he was garbage. Scored the odd goal from midfield but was a low point in some woeful teams for us in the early naughties.

He never really got much stick from the fans as the whole team tended to get the stick, so his beef with us is bizarre.

He certainly branched out. His career has moved onto music, and is now lead singer with Ulteria, and his stage name is "Honey". Bloke who sits nearby to me used to call him Swampy. And they dont sound anything like the Sisters of Mercy. Not a bit. No way.  ;D

There you go, subconsciously a genius, that's me!

so who was this manager he was slagging off? I guess it was during his second season with us, so Broadhurst, Fenwick or Wilkinson.