The Hotel End

The Hotel End => Cobblers Corner => Topic started by: Zen Master on March 28, 2024, 14:37:25 pm



Title: Accounts
Post by: Zen Master on March 28, 2024, 14:37:25 pm
https://www.ntfc.co.uk/siteassets/image/202324-season/ntfc---accounts-copy-website.pdf


Title: Re: Accounts
Post by: CobblerForever on March 28, 2024, 14:55:44 pm
Quickly perusing those financial statements, the key matter that strikes me is how substantial the loss (approximating to £20k per week) is even after the significant Profit on Disposal of Player Registrations income.

Given the current infrastructure we definitely need a decent Cup run or two as well as fill the house for the significant majority of our home league games.

The owners are still funding the club.


Title: Re: Accounts
Post by: DavCobb on March 28, 2024, 15:01:00 pm
Nothing ground breaking in there.
£1m loss, clearly the Carney money doing some heavy lifting. Assuming the 'asset' is the East Stand?  ;D

The price of promotion and some nice bonuses for the staff.

Chalked another '1' off any profit they will ever make.


Title: Re: Accounts
Post by: Gaston on March 28, 2024, 15:10:56 pm
Itís unsustainable at this rate.


Title: Re: Accounts
Post by: DavCobb on March 28, 2024, 15:16:46 pm
Accounts bingoÖ.Iím adding ĎChinese moneyí to the card.   :P


Title: Re: Accounts
Post by: Shoemaker on March 28, 2024, 15:37:31 pm
Itís unsustainable at this rate.
It is
Until you have a player you can sell for 3/4 million to bring things back to a more manageable level.
The fact is you do have to speculate to accumulate to achieve this.
That is why Peterborough are sitting on several millions of pounds worth of player assets and we are not.
Letís see what investment David can get into the club this summer to help us implement a similar plan.


Title: Re: Accounts
Post by: TVOR on March 28, 2024, 15:47:11 pm
Ipswich lost £18.2m
Portsmouth lost £3.1m
Morecambe lost £1.27m
Shrewsbury lost £3m
Carlisle lost £665k
MK Dons lost £2.2m

(I think all of these are accurate).


Title: Re: Accounts
Post by: TVOR on March 28, 2024, 15:57:41 pm
It is
Until you have a player you can sell for 3/4 million to bring things back to a more manageable level.
The fact is you do have to speculate to accumulate to achieve this.
That is why Peterborough are sitting on several millions of pounds worth of player assets and we are not.
Letís see what investment David can get into the club this summer to help us implement a similar plan.
Also sat on approx £25m debt, lost around £15m over the last few seasons and had the company that owns the ground so into (and out of) receivership.
There are a lot of clubs you can point at that are financially better ran than Northampton but they sure as s*** are not one of them!

If they don't go up this season they are f***ed.


Title: Re: Accounts
Post by: tcobb on March 28, 2024, 16:09:04 pm
Did i read somewhere that Leyton Orient lost over £4M ?


Title: Re: Accounts
Post by: BackOfTheNet on March 28, 2024, 16:10:57 pm
Until you have a player you can sell for 3/4 million to bring things back to a more manageable level.

We need to crack on and sell our star player Hylton before his contract runs out.


Title: Re: Accounts
Post by: Another Pedj on March 28, 2024, 16:15:25 pm
Did i read somewhere that Leyton Orient lost over £4M ?

Just under £4M loss in their promotion season. Turnover is similar to ours.


Title: Re: Accounts
Post by: DavCobb on March 28, 2024, 16:23:46 pm
Accounts bingo....I'm adding 'any deloitte's link'....that's Melly screwed.  ;D


Title: Re: Accounts
Post by: Barty on March 28, 2024, 16:28:53 pm
I donít understand the interest in the clubís accounts, but if floats your boat then sail on sailor 😊


Title: Re: Accounts
Post by: A view from afar on March 28, 2024, 16:51:37 pm
Well, Iíve got my extra large bag of salted popcorn at the ready just sitting here waiting for Duston and Luton LLP to give us their insight and how it would have been so much better with the ACV bringing in ďup to £250kĒ a seasonÖÖ


Title: Re: Accounts
Post by: Manwork04 on March 28, 2024, 17:04:05 pm
Doesnít tell half the story, the owner pumping £1m a year into the club is only possible because of the land deal.
If I was spunkÓng £1m into something Iíd at least want to turn up to see how it was doing.


Title: Re: Accounts
Post by: Mysterious Curle on March 28, 2024, 17:29:54 pm
Doesnít tell half the story, the owner pumping £1m a year into the club is only possible because of the land deal.
If I was spunkÓng £1m into something Iíd at least want to turn up to see how it was doing.

Can he not see howís its doing without being there?

I assume heís got a reasonable wifi connection in Thomas Towers?


Title: Re: Accounts
Post by: Manwork04 on March 28, 2024, 18:00:08 pm
Can he not see howís its doing without being there?

I assume heís got a reasonable wifi connection in Thomas Towers?
Are you serious?


Title: Re: Accounts
Post by: Manwork04 on March 28, 2024, 18:03:27 pm
Accounts bingoÖ.Iím adding ĎChinese moneyí to the card.   :P
The Chinese money is your moon landing.
#elaboratehoax


Title: Re: Accounts
Post by: Grove on March 28, 2024, 18:32:12 pm
7+million in debt to Thomas, /bower,+ amount to spend on east stand, circa £10million that's a memorable figure, this isn't going to end well!!


Title: Re: Accounts
Post by: Manwork04 on March 28, 2024, 18:37:16 pm
7+million in debt to Thomas, /bower,+ amount to spend on east stand, circa £10million that's a memorable figure, this isn't going to end well!!
Spot on mate.


Title: Re: Accounts
Post by: west stand oap on March 28, 2024, 19:27:30 pm
Wrexham lost £5million and after only being there 3 years the Hollywood boys are owed £9million.


Title: Re: Accounts
Post by: DavCobb on March 28, 2024, 19:47:31 pm
Wrexham lost £5million and after only being there 3 years the Hollywood boys are owed £9million.

Iíd imagine they can well afford it and their PR would have brought in a shed load. Itíll get more expensive if they climb higher.


Title: Re: Accounts
Post by: itsme on March 28, 2024, 20:04:42 pm
Losing 1 million a year is never going to end well long term

But tet some fans would still like us to spend more on players and be even further in debt


Title: Re: Accounts
Post by: Manwork04 on March 28, 2024, 20:06:29 pm
Losing 1 million a year is never going to end well long term

But tet some fans would still like us to spend more on players and be even further in debt
You do know we are in debt to the people that own us ?


Title: Re: Accounts
Post by: Terryfenwickatemyhamster on March 28, 2024, 20:47:38 pm
You do know we are in debt to the people that own us ?

You do know thatís the picture for virtually every football league club.

But we are in a better position than most. Because our owners canít sell the ground to service any debt. 

We are at the thick end of knowing what the end game is. Panicking and scaremongering now wonít change a thing.


Title: Re: Accounts
Post by: itsme on March 28, 2024, 21:39:37 pm
You do know we are in debt to the people that own us ?

Yes that's correct but doesn't mean at some point they won't want to call that debt in


Title: Re: Accounts
Post by: Melbourne Cobbler on March 28, 2024, 22:26:17 pm
Just been cross referencing this with some of the comments on the FAB thread and the government white paper on reform. I think itís fair to say it paints a rather confusing picture.


Title: Re: Accounts
Post by: Melbourne Cobbler on March 28, 2024, 22:42:48 pm
It is
Until you have a player you can sell for 3/4 million to bring things back to a more manageable level.
The fact is you do have to speculate to accumulate to achieve this.
That is why Peterborough are sitting on several millions of pounds worth of player assets and we are not.
Letís see what investment David can get into the club this summer to help us implement a similar plan.
As pointed out Peterborough have run up a massive debt, including significant amounts to external bodies that dropped them right in the shŪt. Not singling this post out in particular but posts of this type are commonplace. How exactly do people suppose owners are speculating in these scenarios, and where lies and who do you suppose the biggest risk is to? How many times does it have to be said, there is a massive difference between owners who self fund debt and those like Peterborough who expose a club to external risk with outcomes they may not be able to control.

The fact is they absolutely donít have to speculate like Peterborough, neither should they expose a club and its supporters with a hundred + years of history to it on some personal whim. If the government get their way they wonít, and finally this nonsense and the relentless shŪt advice from a section of the support base will come to an end.

Like it or not, massive credit to the owners for not subjecting your club to this bůllocks. Q the usual foot stamping hysterics and misinformation.

https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/68128365


Title: Re: Accounts
Post by: Melbourne Cobbler on March 28, 2024, 23:10:23 pm
Yes that's correct but doesn't mean at some point they won't want to call that debt in
Genuine question, what happens if they do? Iím guessing theyíre fķcked, perhaps someone knows different.


Title: Re: Accounts
Post by: DavCobb on March 28, 2024, 23:38:09 pm
Genuine question, what happens if they do? Iím guessing theyíre fķcked, perhaps someone knows different.

Sell the £2.531m worth of tangible assets? That probably includes the goalposts.


Title: Re: Accounts
Post by: Melbourne Cobbler on March 28, 2024, 23:51:11 pm
Sell the £2.531m worth of tangible assets? That probably includes the goalposts.
Iím guessing a lot of that is the estimated value of the playing squad. Good luck with that in a fire sale as part of a ďcall inĒ of the debt. Itís all guesswork, but of the circa 7 million debt I reckon theyíd maybe get between 1 & 2 million back. Just a hunch but I reckon theyíll perhaps keep doing what theyíre doing. Once the East Stand/land projects are completed I wonder what the longer term plan is? I see KT has again welcomed the government white paper proposal.

ďThese numbers however also highlight the tough challenges that EFL clubs face and the need for a reset of football finances. The recent introduction of the Football Governance Bill and the upcoming appointment of a Football Regulator cannot come soon enough for football.Ē

Hopefully this initiative will protect the long term future of the club against most eventualities.


Title: Re: Accounts
Post by: CobblerForever on March 28, 2024, 23:56:32 pm
Iím guessing a lot of that is the estimated value of the playing squad.

The majority of that arises from the initial work on redeveloping the East Stand (refer to the year ended June 30th 2014 financial statements - when the Cordoza's owned the club).


Title: Re: Accounts
Post by: Melbourne Cobbler on March 29, 2024, 00:15:31 am
Most of that is the cost of putting all that seating back in the East Stand when the current owners acquired the club.
Really, wonder if they can sell those as part of the ďdebt call inĒ. Iíll take 3, we always need extra chairs at Christmas.


Title: Re: Accounts
Post by: CobblerForever on March 29, 2024, 00:21:44 am
Really, wonder if they can sell those as part of the ďdebt call inĒ. Iíll take 3, we always need extra chairs at Christmas.

Sorry. I took the trouble to go back and look at the financial statements in detail and altered my original post - about £131k refers to putting back in the seating.


Title: Re: Accounts
Post by: Observing on March 29, 2024, 00:22:47 am
Theyíll obviously recoup a fair amount of that £7m from the land deal. Thatís coming knowledge isnít it?

You know a lot of owners charge interest on the debt owed to them?


Title: Re: Accounts
Post by: Melbourne Cobbler on March 29, 2024, 00:32:08 am
Sorry. I took the trouble to go back and look at the financial statements in detail and altered my original post - about £131k refers to putting back in the seating.
Either way, there wonít be any calling in of any debt. There might be a structured repayment following a land deal, looks like that may be interest free too, if the current position is maintained.

To be clear there is actually no legal distinction between calling in and repayment of a debt. One implies immediate and full settlement and the other implies is a reasonable measured repayment process, but in reality there is no difference. Thought I should chuck that in.


Title: Re: Accounts
Post by: Terryfenwickatemyhamster on March 29, 2024, 06:40:20 am
Times like this, are like Christmas for the negative. Some of us know nothing has really changed. That the debt rolls at the amount it does. And addition to that, we know it means very little. Others take it as an opportunity to attack the club once again. Everyone who has run the club has done so at a loss. With our current league position and increased attendances, we are heading in the right direction. Of course next year is pivotal. We need to stay up, then see the East stand completed. If either of those are not achieved the club can rightly expect criticism.

And in the long term, I would expect the current owners to leave ( should they choose to do so) with us debt free and ready to face the next challenge.


Title: Re: Accounts
Post by: Deepcut Cobbler on March 29, 2024, 08:34:55 am
https://www.northamptonchron.co.uk/sport/football/thomas-comfortable-with-cobblers-financial-position-despite-higher-losses-and-increased-debt-4573035

If you can navigate through the adverts...


Title: Re: Accounts
Post by: Melbourne Cobbler on March 29, 2024, 08:52:34 am
https://www.northamptonchron.co.uk/sport/football/thomas-comfortable-with-cobblers-financial-position-despite-higher-losses-and-increased-debt-4573035

If you can navigate through the adverts...
Ads included the Northampton Beer Festival at Becketts Park which was ok to scroll past. The next one was Bikini Trends In 2023 May Be Mindblowing. Even though I am 12 months late that presented more of a challenge to navigate through.


Title: Re: Accounts
Post by: Bingers on March 29, 2024, 09:06:31 am
Sell the £2.531m worth of tangible assets? That probably includes the goalposts.

Do you think that they would move the goal posts like that?


Title: Re: Accounts
Post by: Manwork04 on March 29, 2024, 09:12:07 am
Do you think that they would move the goal posts like that?
I think it includes the East Stand so do it.


Title: Re: Accounts
Post by: Macc Cobbler on March 29, 2024, 23:21:10 pm
Times like this, are like Christmas for the negative. Some of us know nothing has really changed. That the debt rolls at the amount it does. And addition to that, we know it means very little. Others take it as an opportunity to attack the club once again. Everyone who has run the club has done so at a loss. With our current league position and increased attendances, we are heading in the right direction. Of course next year is pivotal. We need to stay up, then see the East stand completed. If either of those are not achieved the club can rightly expect criticism.

And in the long term, I would expect the current owners to leave ( should they choose to do so) with us debt free and ready to face the next challenge.

Exactly.
I would like to see the Club to publish their vision for the future.
For example, where do we want to be in 2030, and how are we going to get there.


Title: Re: Accounts
Post by: Carton Lid on March 29, 2024, 23:33:46 pm
Does anyone know the reason why we had "Reduced EFL monies" ?


Title: Re: Accounts
Post by: Melbourne Cobbler on March 30, 2024, 00:13:10 am
Does anyone know the reason why we had "Reduced EFL monies" ?
Havenít had the time to go through, it looks like just over a 100k cut but that might be wrong. Itís in here.

https://theathletic.com/4957498/2023/10/16/epl-efl-explained-deal-english-football/


Title: Re: Accounts
Post by: Zen Master on March 30, 2024, 12:31:19 pm
It is
Until you have a player you can sell for 3/4 million to bring things back to a more manageable level.
The fact is you do have to speculate to accumulate to achieve this.
That is why Peterborough are sitting on several millions of pounds worth of player assets and we are not.
Letís see what investment David can get into the club this summer to help us implement a similar plan.

https://x.com/kieranmaguire/status/1774035870674244089?s=46&t=u7Y-71UW8bj6jSt3EiAOKA

£19 million in the red. F uck the posh


Title: Re: Accounts
Post by: Melbourne Cobbler on March 30, 2024, 14:50:07 pm
https://x.com/kieranmaguire/status/1774035870674244089?s=46&t=u7Y-71UW8bj6jSt3EiAOKA

£19 million in the red. F uck the posh
Interest on loans 16k a week. great way to run a club. Remember, this is the route some of our supporters, who claim to have our best interests at heart, want to take us down in the name of ďprogressĒ.


Title: Re: Accounts
Post by: Zen Master on March 30, 2024, 16:18:14 pm
Exactamundo


Title: Re: Accounts
Post by: Melbourne Cobbler on March 31, 2024, 07:58:43 am
Interest on loans 16k a week. great way to run a club. Remember, this is the route some of our supporters, who claim to have our best interests at heart, want to take us down in the name of ďprogressĒ.
Had a quick look at this, itís actually £16,815 a week (£874,421 per annum). At an average season ticket of £350 (£292 before vat) assume the club took all of that money and didnít off set any match day expenditure against the value. On that basis they still have to sell 3,000 season tickets just to service that debt against an average gate of 8,900. Thats insane.


Title: Re: Accounts
Post by: Larry on March 31, 2024, 09:48:11 am
Had a quick look at this, itís actually £16,815 a week (£874,421 per annum). At an average season ticket of £350 (£292 before vat) assume the club took all of that money and didnít off set any match day expenditure against the value. On that basis they still have to sell 3,000 season tickets just to service that debt against an average gate of 8,900. Thats insane.

Who are the loans from?


Title: Re: Accounts
Post by: Melbourne Cobbler on March 31, 2024, 10:11:49 am
Who are the loans from?
They owe around a disputed 7 million to a Canadian investment fund that they have just had to restructure the repayments on. Not sure about the rest.


Title: Re: Accounts
Post by: Coolcat on March 31, 2024, 13:42:09 pm
Our other favourites, Oxford United £6 million in debt. They are holding off signing for land between Oxford Parkway and Kidlington for new stadium build.
I'd be happy with expansion of Sixfields to around 10,000 - 12, 000 capacity. Not too fussed about a 5-aside pitch, kids bouncy castle or Box Park...though the club/Stagecoach could take a leaf out of Reading's book regarding buses back into town after the game!
Those from Daventry not affected - always a bus each for the three of you operating every 5 minutes!


Title: Re: Accounts
Post by: West Stand on March 31, 2024, 13:44:00 pm
Peterborough raised £2.5 million through a bond, but the interest is 9% per annum, plus a one off 15% if they get promoted to the championship before 2026/27.

It's was a five bond, so there will have to pay it back in 2027.


Title: Re: Accounts
Post by: UTC on April 01, 2024, 10:08:04 am
Sell the £2.531m worth of tangible assets? That probably includes the goalposts.

Notes 5 . Tangible fixed asset is the lease to the stadium


Title: Re: Accounts
Post by: GrangeParkCobbler on April 02, 2024, 18:57:35 pm
Seemingly happy to compare ourselves with clubs losing more money but nobody mentioning clubs who are not in that boat....?

The mighty Walsall, playing in the division below don't forget, have announced an annual turnover of £7.615m, which actually led to them returning into the black, only to the tune of 11k granted, but still a profit.

How about Exeter City? Turnover for the year was £5.844m, and proceeds from player sales was £1.39m, their costs were actually less than their turnover, and as a result they announced a profit for the year of over £300k.

Our accounts show our turnover is 700k less than Exeter (and nearly £2.5m less than Walsall) but our costs were over a million higher than Exeter whilst we too recorded a similar amount from player sales (£1.21m) as they did.

So, are our costs too high, or is our revenue too low? What were we missing out on if at the same time we are recording increased gates, a surge in season ticket revenue (a lot of which would have been banked before the June 30th accounts date) and the fact that the EFL cut in funding was only 100k or so, our turnover fell year on year?

I'm sure there is work going on behind the scenes to try and grow revenue in all areas, and its not just from the fans who turn up every other week. Have we tried to get anyone to take on the naming rights for the stadium since the demise of PTS for example?

It seems at the moment we are in a chicken and egg situation......we won't speculate and pay out money now for a return medium term, but we can't grow the revenue without speculating!

I hope to be pleasantly surprised but I can't see the wishlists being prepared from stakeholders in the Fans Advisory Board are going to amount to anything. I mean, even putting hot water taps in the toilets is a cost which will see nil return on a balance sheet, same goes for an awning/cover for the DJ or whatever.


Title: Re: Accounts
Post by: Manwork04 on April 02, 2024, 19:27:35 pm
Seemingly happy to compare ourselves with clubs losing more money but nobody mentioning clubs who are not in that boat....?

The mighty Walsall, playing in the division below don't forget, have announced an annual turnover of £7.615m, which actually led to them returning into the black, only to the tune of 11k granted, but still a profit.

How about Exeter City? Turnover for the year was £5.844m, and proceeds from player sales was £1.39m, their costs were actually less than their turnover, and as a result they announced a profit for the year of over £300k.

Our accounts show our turnover is 700k less than Exeter (and nearly £2.5m less than Walsall) but our costs were over a million higher than Exeter whilst we too recorded a similar amount from player sales (£1.21m) as they did.

So, are our costs too high, or is our revenue too low? What were we missing out on if at the same time we are recording increased gates, a surge in season ticket revenue (a lot of which would have been banked before the June 30th accounts date) and the fact that the EFL cut in funding was only 100k or so, our turnover fell year on year?

I'm sure there is work going on behind the scenes to try and grow revenue in all areas, and its not just from the fans who turn up every other week. Have we tried to get anyone to take on the naming rights for the stadium since the demise of PTS for example?

It seems at the moment we are in a chicken and egg situation......we won't speculate and pay out money now for a return medium term, but we can't grow the revenue without speculating!

I hope to be pleasantly surprised but I can't see the wishlists being prepared from stakeholders in the Fans Advisory Board are going to amount to anything. I mean, even putting hot water taps in the toilets is a cost which will see nil return on a balance sheet, same goes for an awning/cover for the DJ or whatever.
FuÁking Hell GPC, be careful youíll have Tel and his gang after you as the infidel for thinking of criticising his holiness KT.


Title: Re: Accounts
Post by: Winslow Lee on April 02, 2024, 19:29:11 pm
Would imagine our pretty woeful cup form hasnít helped turnover


Title: Re: Accounts
Post by: Grove on April 02, 2024, 19:30:57 pm
FuÁking Hell GPC, be careful youíll have Tel and his gang after you as the infidel for thinking of criticising his holiness KT.
I'd be interested what bower and his holiness pay themselves


Title: Re: Accounts
Post by: Manwork04 on April 02, 2024, 19:38:52 pm
I'd be interested what bower and his holiness pay themselves

Lost in the wages figure, a pretty penny I shouldnít wonder, worth every penny  :P


Title: Re: Accounts
Post by: GrangeParkCobbler on April 02, 2024, 19:53:44 pm
FuÁking Hell GPC, be careful youíll have Tel and his gang after you as the infidel for thinking of criticising his holiness KT.

Wasn't necessarily a dig, more pointing out that it doesn't have to be this way!! I suppose it doesn't really matter when you've got the Chairman declaring that he's(and presumably Mr and Mrs Bower are also) comfortable with the level of losses.

As usual we are better than many examples listed..... Posh for one, but we aren't doing as well as others seemingly are.


Title: Re: Accounts
Post by: CobblerForever on April 02, 2024, 19:58:58 pm
a surge in season ticket revenue (a lot of which would have been banked before the June 30th accounts date)

The Revenue figures shown in the financial statements for the year ended June 30th 2023 will only include sales of Season tickets applying to season 22/23.



Title: Re: Accounts
Post by: Coolcat on April 02, 2024, 20:09:11 pm
Seemingly happy to compare ourselves with clubs losing more money but nobody mentioning clubs who are not in that boat....?

The mighty Walsall, playing in the division below don't forget, have announced an annual turnover of £7.615m, which actually led to them returning into the black, only to the tune of 11k granted, but still a profit.

How about Exeter City? Turnover for the year was £5.844m, and proceeds from player sales was £1.39m, their costs were actually less than their turnover, and as a result they announced a profit for the year of over £300k.

Our accounts show our turnover is 700k less than Exeter (and nearly £2.5m less than Walsall) but our costs were over a million higher than Exeter whilst we too recorded a similar amount from player sales (£1.21m) as they did.

So, are our costs too high, or is our revenue too low? What were we missing out on if at the same time we are recording increased gates, a surge in season ticket revenue (a lot of which would have been banked before the June 30th accounts date) and the fact that the EFL cut in funding was only 100k or so, our turnover fell year on year?

I'm sure there is work going on behind the scenes to try and grow revenue in all areas, and its not just from the fans who turn up every other week. Have we tried to get anyone to take on the naming rights for the stadium since the demise of PTS for example?

It seems at the moment we are in a chicken and egg situation......we won't speculate and pay out money now for a return medium term, but we can't grow the revenue without speculating!

I hope to be pleasantly surprised but I can't see the wishlists being prepared from stakeholders in the Fans Advisory Board are going to amount to anything. I mean, even putting hot water taps in the toilets is a cost which will see nil return on a balance sheet, same goes for an awning/cover for the DJ or whatever.
This won't sit well with Melly and the can't speculate, can't accumulate, Duston is a liar crew!


Title: Re: Accounts
Post by: GrangeParkCobbler on April 02, 2024, 20:10:52 pm
The Revenue figures shown in the financial statements for the year ended June 30th 2023 will only include sales of Season tickets applying to season 22/23.



I wouldn't be so sure on that as the balance sheet at 30th June lists "Cash at bank and in hand".... unless they have a way of not banking or at least accounting differently for revenue received in April, May and June in that financial year...it would have to be shown somewhere though!


Title: Re: Accounts
Post by: Winslow Lee on April 02, 2024, 20:17:59 pm
What are we talking about in terms of speculate to accumulate?.


Title: Re: Accounts
Post by: Coolcat on April 02, 2024, 20:22:44 pm
What are we walking about in terms of speculate to accumulate?.
Just again???


Title: Re: Accounts
Post by: CobblerForever on April 02, 2024, 20:35:08 pm
I wouldn't be so sure on that as the balance sheet at 30th June lists "Cash at bank and in hand".... unless they have a way of not banking or at least accounting differently for revenue received in April, May and June in that financial year...it would have to be shown somewhere though!

The early sale of season tickets for season 23/24 (cash received before June 30th 2023) will be the most significant part of Deferred Income in Creditors falling due within one year in Note 8. I don't know how our owners manage the Clubs Bank account but it would make sense not to leave monies earning nothing in the bank when they could utilise it elsewhere via their loan account balances.

The accounting treatment will be in compliance with the accruals concept (matching costs with revenues in the period to which they apply).


Title: Re: Accounts
Post by: GrangeParkCobbler on April 02, 2024, 20:45:14 pm
The early sale of season tickets for season 23/24 (cash received before June 30th 2023) will be the most significant part of Deferred Income in Creditors falling due within one year in Note 8. I don't know how our owners manage the Clubs Bank account but it would make sense not to leave monies earning nothing in the bank when they could utilise it elsewhere via their loan account balances.

The accounting treatment will be in compliance with the accruals concept (matching costs with revenues in the period to which they apply).

So if I understand that right and looking at this set of accounts, the £839k deferred in the 2022 accounts would be included in the 2023 accounts and the £1.139m deferred in this set will go into the next set etc etc..... therefore we are "technically" £300k better off than reported?!


Title: Re: Accounts
Post by: CobblerForever on April 02, 2024, 21:15:20 pm
So if I understand that right and looking at this set of accounts, the £839k deferred in the 2022 accounts would be included in the 2023 accounts and the £1.139m deferred in this set will go into the next set etc etc..... therefore we are "technically" £300k better off than reported?!

The £839k deferred in the 2022 accounts showed up as revenue in the 2023 accounts and the £1.139 million will show up as Revenue in the 2024 accounts.

I wouldn't say we are better off than reported. I would say we were complying with the accruals concept - deferring taking the revenue until the year it is earned (the relevent year the advance season ticket sales games are played).





Title: Re: Accounts
Post by: Bingers on April 02, 2024, 22:17:06 pm

I'm sure there is work going on behind the scenes to try and grow revenue in all areas, and its not just from the fans who turn up every other week. Have we tried to get anyone to take on the naming rights for the stadium since the demise of PTS for example?


How about The Hotel End stadium if we all chip in? I am in for a tenner. Twenty if push comes to shove.

Then a lottery for who gets the associated hospitality, like when we sponsored Leeroy


Title: Re: Accounts
Post by: Melbourne Cobbler on April 02, 2024, 22:40:08 pm
This won't sit well with Melly and the can't speculate, can't accumulate, Duston is a liar crew!
Theres a reason why the reform bill is due to be passed before the end of parliament. Holding up these 2 examples to suggest there shouldnít be a problem is taking the pŪss. Itís a fact that NTFC is financially outperforming the majority of the 72 clubs in the EFL, dry your eyes and get over it.


Title: Re: Accounts
Post by: Terryfenwickatemyhamster on April 03, 2024, 07:29:27 am
FuÁking Hell GPC, be careful youíll have Tel and his gang after you as the infidel for thinking of criticising his holiness KT.

Firstly can I thank you for appointing me to the heady status of, leader of a gang. I very much doubt that I am seen by anyone on here as a leader (other than you of course) but I always take exception with anyone that uses Exeter City as a comparison to any club. Not just us. Exeter has an extensive pool (up to nearly 600 at times) of volunteers who emanate from their fan owned status, who occupy a variety of roles, all of which NTFC have to pay for.

WalsallÖ I will give you just one example of this not being a level playing field again. Their fýcking huge digital advertising screens that are viewed from the manic M6, now have  5,037 sq ft of LED panels, making it one of the biggest screens in the world and the largest in Europe. With two huge panels at a length of 213ft, it is almost as long as a Boeing 747. plus the advertisements on the large home end behind the goal, raise more than our entire advertising revenue, for the whole of our stadium annually, in a matter of months. These attract revenue year round. In addition to this they have significantly better conferencing and entertainment facilities, hugely assisting their overall revenue.

SoÖ Two further poor comparisons. But.. In my defence, I argue this point the other way as well. So I donít have a foot in either camp. I realise the pointlessness of comparing anything to something that is not directly  like for like comparable. Including those that we regularly out perform.


Title: Re: Accounts
Post by: DavCobb on April 03, 2024, 07:33:43 am
It'll be interesting if the playing budget remains the same. Hylton for example could save a couple of hundred grand a year.
With no 'Carney injection' on the horizon (maybe some deferred) we could end up £2m down current year. I don't see us making big bucks from any of the current squad.
I'll sure we'll get some noises close season if JB isn't happy with what he has to play with. We could certainly do with a cup run or two next season.


Title: Re: Accounts
Post by: Bingers on April 03, 2024, 08:35:28 am
Firstly can I thank you for appointing me to the heady status of, leader of a gang. I very much doubt that I am seen by anyone on here as a leader (other than you of course)

I think of you as our leader, the spiritual leader. The one to guide us through the maze of what is right and wrong, yes, that's it, the Influencer.


Colonel Deepcut is obviously the Enforcer. Nobody messes with him and gets away with it.


His Excellency is the absent Owner who we can whinge about if things aren't going well, but if there is any success, he'll be there to take the plaudits.


Title: Re: Accounts
Post by: Melbourne Cobbler on April 03, 2024, 08:48:35 am
Allow me an abbreviated answer. In the unlikely event that you find yourself in the finance business, imagine someone comes to you with a proposal. If they offer the exceptional rather than the typical or mean as a comparative in any justification, the only thing you need to concern yourself with is remembering to hand them their coat on the way out.

Love Melly (aka Lord Sugar).


Title: Re: Accounts
Post by: Worthless Recluse on April 03, 2024, 10:37:54 am
Allow me an abbreviated answer. In the unlikely event that you find yourself in the finance business, imagine someone comes to you with a proposal. If they offer the exceptional rather than the typical or mean as a comparative in any justification, the only thing you need to concern yourself with is remembering to hand them their coat on the way out.

Love Melly (aka Lord Sugar).
Without the exceptional there is no mean, no statistical analysis worth making, no banker evaluating yours or my proposal.
Hell without the exceptional we'd still be waiting for fire and wheels.
Break your own mould Melly, go nuts. Go saccharine.


Title: Re: Accounts
Post by: Melbourne Cobbler on April 03, 2024, 11:36:49 am
Without the exceptional there is no mean, no statistical analysis worth making, no banker evaluating yours or my proposal.
Hell without the exceptional we'd still be waiting for fire and wheels.
Break your own mould Melly, go nuts. Go saccharine.
It works for me mate.


Title: Re: Accounts
Post by: Manwork04 on April 03, 2024, 16:57:03 pm
Firstly can I thank you for appointing me to the heady status of, leader of a gang. I very much doubt that I am seen by anyone on here as a leader (other than you of course) but I always take exception with anyone that uses Exeter City as a comparison to any club. Not just us. Exeter has an extensive pool (up to nearly 600 at times) of volunteers who emanate from their fan owned status, who occupy a variety of roles, all of which NTFC have to pay for.

WalsallÖ I will give you just one example of this not being a level playing field again. Their fýcking huge digital advertising screens that are viewed from the manic M6, now have  5,037 sq ft of LED panels, making it one of the biggest screens in the world and the largest in Europe. With two huge panels at a length of 213ft, it is almost as long as a Boeing 747. plus the advertisements on the large home end behind the goal, raise more than our entire advertising revenue, for the whole of our stadium annually, in a matter of months. These attract revenue year round. In addition to this they have significantly better conferencing and entertainment facilities, hugely assisting their overall revenue.

SoÖ Two further poor comparisons. But.. In my defence, I argue this point the other way as well. So I donít have a foot in either camp. I realise the pointlessness of comparing anything to something that is not directly  like for like comparable. Including those that we regularly out perform.
Youíll always be a leader in my eyes Tel. 💙


Title: Re: Accounts
Post by: Bingers on April 03, 2024, 18:38:32 pm
Youíll always be a leader in my eyes Tel. 💙

See Fenners, it's not just me who loves you, Manny does too. FACT.


Title: Re: Accounts
Post by: Terryfenwickatemyhamster on April 03, 2024, 18:52:56 pm
See Fenners, it's not just me who loves you, Manny does too. FACT.

WellÖ.. If it comes under the now famous ďFACTĒ umbrella. I am truly honoured  ;D


Title: Re: Accounts
Post by: Carton Lid on April 05, 2024, 09:38:14 am
What amazes me is that because KT says he's "Comfortable" with NTFC losing £1M per year everyone thinks its OK. Would he be so "Comfortable" if he didn't have the proceeds of the land deal to pay back the loans? When KT & DB decide to sell up, they will clear their loans and we are left with a business that is losing £1M per year.
   Melly says all clubs lose money, not true, as GPC has pointed out, what I can't get my head around is why we don't look at the clubs that don't lose money and try and be more like them.
     Do people really think we are maximising are matchday income? if not, why not ?. Let me use Wycombe as an example, first think they have electronic adds around 3 sides of the pitch for TV. OK they probably cost a few thousand to install but once you've bought them it's all profit. They must make money or Wycombe won't have installed them.
    This season we knew we would have, on average, over 1,000 away fans each game, do we do anything to get them to spend cash whilst they are at Sixfields? Before someone points out that there is nothing else at Wycombe can I also point out that when the coaches arrive at Sixfields someone from NTFC gets on board and "welcomes" them and points out where to buy tickets, the club shop and where to get food and drink, so it would be quite easy to point them in the direction of any bars run by NTFC.
    Carr's Bar is much too small, we have the decking outside which is fine in dry weather, I did suggest to NTFC about putting a retractable awning over this and was told that the roof support girders prevented this, I have a contact who works for an awning company, and he says that wouldn't be a problem. I went back with this to NTFC and was then told it would be "too expensive". I suggested they ask Carlsberg, or any other company, to sponsor it but I don't think they bothered, why not?
   


Title: Re: Accounts
Post by: Winslow Lee on April 05, 2024, 09:43:17 am
What amazes me is that because KT says he's "Comfortable" with NTFC losing £1M per year everyone thinks its OK. Would he be so "Comfortable" if he didn't have the proceeds of the land deal to pay back the loans? When KT & DB decide to sell up, they will clear their loans and we are left with a business that is losing £1M per year.
 


Massive reduction in the playing budget needed!


Title: Re: Accounts
Post by: Melbourne Cobbler on April 05, 2024, 09:48:58 am
What amazes me is that because KT says he's "Comfortable" with NTFC losing £1M per year everyone thinks its OK. Would he be so "Comfortable" if he didn't have the proceeds of the land deal to pay back the loans? When KT & DB decide to sell up, they will clear their loans and we are left with a business that is losing £1M per year.
   Melly says all clubs lose money, not true, as GPC has pointed out, what I can't get my head around is why we don't look at the clubs that don't lose money and try and be more like them.
     Do people really think we are maximising are matchday income? if not, why not ?. Let me use Wycombe as an example, first think they have electronic adds around 3 sides of the pitch for TV. OK they probably cost a few thousand to install but once you've bought them it's all profit. They must make money or Wycombe won't have installed them.
    This season we knew we would have, on average, over 1,000 away fans each game, do we do anything to get them to spend cash whilst they are at Sixfields? Before someone points out that there is nothing else at Wycombe can I also point out that when the coaches arrive at Sixfields someone from NTFC gets on board and "welcomes" them and points out where to buy tickets, the club shop and where to get food and drink, so it would be quite easy to point them in the direction of any bars run by NTFC.
    Carr's Bar is much too small, we have the decking outside which is fine in dry weather, I did suggest to NTFC about putting a retractable awning over this and was told that the roof support girders prevented this, I have a contact who works for an awning company, and he says that wouldn't be a problem. I went back with this to NTFC and was then told it would be "too expensive". I suggested they ask Carlsberg, or any other company, to sponsor it but I don't think they bothered, why not?
   

To clarify, Iíve never said at any point that all clubs lose money. Iíve only ever discussed whatís typical and average and posted figures from reputable sources to demonstrate this. So what Iíve illustrated are facts, and they really are facts. Happy to go through it all again and reclarify if necessary. If people still want to bury their heads in the sand following the reality check thatís up to them.


Title: Re: Accounts
Post by: Manwork04 on April 05, 2024, 10:13:31 am
To clarify, Iíve never said at any point that all clubs lose money. Iíve only ever discussed whatís typical and average and posted figures from reputable sources to demonstrate this. So what Iíve illustrated are facts, and they really are facts. Happy to go through it all again and reclarify if necessary. If people still want to bury their heads in the sand following the reality check thatís up to them.
Carton does have a very valid point regards revenue, and not just match day either, what about a gym or polyclinic, meeting rooms for hire, concertsÖÖ.


Title: Re: Accounts
Post by: Melbourne Cobbler on April 05, 2024, 10:25:54 am
Carton does have a very valid point regards revenue, and not just match day either, what about a gym or polyclinic, meeting rooms for hire, concertsÖÖ.
A very valid point, my question would be in the case of Wycombes advertising boards, what did it cost and what does it raise in revenue, or is that some sort of national secret? Ideas are great but thatís all they are, until you dangle the carrot of incentive you and I both know you will struggle to motivate anyone. I donít know about Carrís Bar and hospitality is not my thing but a figure thatís been put out there is that the average licensed premises makes around 16p on a pint. How much do you want to spend on Carrís or similar and do the maths. If it adds up great, if it doesnít you have a job on your hands getting it off the ground. Youíre not daft mate, you know the score.


Title: Re: Accounts
Post by: Terryfenwickatemyhamster on April 05, 2024, 10:28:33 am
What amazes me is that because KT says he's "Comfortable" with NTFC losing £1M per year everyone thinks its OK. Would he be so "Comfortable" if he didn't have the proceeds of the land deal to pay back the loans? When KT & DB decide to sell up, they will clear their loans and we are left with a business that is losing £1M per year.
   Melly says all clubs lose money, not true, as GPC has pointed out, what I can't get my head around is why we don't look at the clubs that don't lose money and try and be more like them.
     Do people really think we are maximising are matchday income? if not, why not ?. Let me use Wycombe as an example, first think they have electronic adds around 3 sides of the pitch for TV. OK they probably cost a few thousand to install but once you've bought them it's all profit. They must make money or Wycombe won't have installed them.
    This season we knew we would have, on average, over 1,000 away fans each game, do we do anything to get them to spend cash whilst they are at Sixfields? Before someone points out that there is nothing else at Wycombe can I also point out that when the coaches arrive at Sixfields someone from NTFC gets on board and "welcomes" them and points out where to buy tickets, the club shop and where to get food and drink, so it would be quite easy to point them in the direction of any bars run by NTFC.
    Carr's Bar is much too small, we have the decking outside which is fine in dry weather, I did suggest to NTFC about putting a retractable awning over this and was told that the roof support girders prevented this, I have a contact who works for an awning company, and he says that wouldn't be a problem. I went back with this to NTFC and was then told it would be "too expensive". I suggested they ask Carlsberg, or any other company, to sponsor it but I don't think they bothered, why not?
   


A few things strike me about this post Roger. Firstly, nobody thinks this: ďKT says he's "Comfortable" with NTFC losing £1M per year everyone thinks itís OKĒ. That's not true. Every supporter, given the alternative, of making a profit, would take that as preferable.

The other thing is the use of certain clubs making a profit. When we both know, and I have explained this earlier, that the comparisons are a mile off being like for like. Exeter run an army of volunteers in roles that we have to pay for. I will deal with Walsall in a business analogy that would appeal to us. Imagine you run an electrical contracting company, and you have a direct rival. Your rival has one of the largest digital advertising screens around. In one of the busiest areas in Europe. Which is viewed by millions each year. They also own their own property, and have the ability to attract year round revenue. You own an oversized TV in a Sixfields car park, and a run down council house. How are either of those relevant to us?

The rest of your suggestions, I fully agree with, and as usual, I know that you are ever pro-active and are always fair in putting those points across. The Trust is dead in the water Roger. But the club would benefit hugely from the ideas that well intentioned supporters like you have.


Title: Re: Accounts
Post by: Carton Lid on April 05, 2024, 10:43:50 am
A very valid point, my question would be in the case of Wycombes advertising boards, what did it cost and what does it raise in revenue, or is that some sort of national secret? Ideas are great but thatís all they are, until you dangle the carrot of incentive you and I both know you will struggle to motivate anyone. I donít know about Carrís Bar and hospitality is not my thing but a figure thatís been put out there is that the average licensed premises makes around 16p on a pint. How much do you want to spend on Carrís or similar and do the maths. If it adds up great, if it doesnít you have a job on your hands getting it off the ground. Youíre not daft mate, you know the score.
I would think that Wycombe did look into it before buying them Dale, but it shouldn't be difficult for someone like NTFC to get the big picture. You say the average licenced premises make 16p per pint, I think with a bar at a football ground would ,probably, make a bit more than that. We only have TGI Fridays as the "away" bar competition and they are certainly not Witherspoons prices
    Coming back to Tels point about paying for staff, why don't NTFC ask for a few volunteers, work in Carr's from 1 till 3 and 5 till 6 and get a free match ticket? I'm sure a few would be interested


Title: Re: Accounts
Post by: GrangeParkCobbler on April 05, 2024, 10:55:06 am
There was a news article on Sky yesterday regarding the price of a pint and it broke down how much an an average pint cost and why.....with the wholesale cost, wastage, staff costs, rent/utilities and even CO2 were taken off the profit margin came in at 83p a pint.

As I brought up Walsall, I can't find details of exactly how much their big screen brings in. it was touted as potentially seven figures per year but does not seem to have brought in anything like this as it has been felt that a lot of the time it is broken, and when it does work it tends to advertise local businesses rather than the other screens around on the M6 corridor which feature "blue chip companies". One of the big advertising companies is going to attract the sort of business that Walsall's commercial department never could!

Exeter, yes they have many volunteers but the point was they brought in a million pounds more revenue than we did. If a few hundred volunteers can bring in that type of money then lets go for it!!

Anyway, there is no right or wrong answer to all this, all I was doing was merely mentioning that some football clubs do find ways of making a bit of money, and those which are losing money should look to them and look at what they are doing right!


Title: Re: Accounts
Post by: Melbourne Cobbler on April 05, 2024, 11:15:38 am
This is where I got my info from, 31p split between brewery and licensee = 15.5p each. Sky might be right this might be wrong, but Iím not pulling this stuff out of my arśe.

https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/bills/article-12356477/This-price-pint-pays-cost-beer-rises.html


Title: Re: Accounts
Post by: Melbourne Cobbler on April 05, 2024, 11:25:03 am
I would think that Wycombe did look into it before buying them Dale, but it shouldn't be difficult for someone like NTFC to get the big picture. You say the average licenced premises make 16p per pint, I think with a bar at a football ground would ,probably, make a bit more than that. We only have TGI Fridays as the "away" bar competition and they are certainly not Witherspoons prices
    Coming back to Tels point about paying for staff, why don't NTFC ask for a few volunteers, work in Carr's from 1 till 3 and 5 till 6 and get a free match ticket? I'm sure a few would be interested
Rog, Iím not saying it wouldnít work , Iím just quoting the figures Iíve read. 4000 pints at 16p equals £640. 4000 pints at 83p equals £3,320.00 both options are less 20% corporation tax on any profit obviously. The question is what do these clubs make with a fan village etc, again it canít be a national secret. What are the best performing clubs, who turns over the most money on non ticket match day sales per spectator and why, who makes the most profit on non ticket match day sales and why? There is actually no need to guess if you are smart about it and do the leg work.


Title: Re: Accounts
Post by: CobblerForever on April 05, 2024, 11:53:23 am
Rog, Iím not saying it wouldnít work , Iím just quoting the figures Iíve read. 4000 pints at 16p equals £640. 4000 pints at 83p equals £3,320.00 both options are less 20% corporation tax on any profit obviously. The question is what do these clubs make with a fan village etc, again it canít be a national secret. What are the best performing clubs, who turns over the most money on non ticket match day sales per spectator and why, who makes the most profit on non ticket match day sales and why? There is actually no need to guess if you are smart about it and do the leg work.

Regarding Corporation Tax;

If you are saying it is the club (NTFC) making the profit on sales of alcohol the club has enormous corporation tax losses brought forward to set against the profit.


Title: Re: Accounts
Post by: Melbourne Cobbler on April 05, 2024, 12:17:34 pm
Regarding Corporation Tax;

If you are saying it is the club (NTFC) making the profit on sales of alcohol the club has enormous corporation tax losses brought forward to set against the profit.
Correct, but I was talking generally, assuming we are talking about an entity operating in the black, which is the suggestion.


Title: Re: Accounts
Post by: CobblerForever on April 05, 2024, 12:26:38 pm
Correct, but I was talking generally, assuming we are talking about an entity operating in the black, which is the suggestion.

Thanks for the clarification.

The Cobblers must have tax losses brought forward in the region of £9.2 million (roughly the retained losses figure). A potential Deferred Tax Asset of £1.84 million (9.2 million x 20%) not currently recognised on the Balance Sheet.


Title: Re: Accounts
Post by: Melbourne Cobbler on April 05, 2024, 12:31:46 pm
Thanks for the clarification.

The Cobblers must have tax losses brought forward in the region of £9.2 million (roughly the retained losses figure). A potential Deferred Tax Asset of £1.84 million (9.2 million x 20%) not currently recognised on the Balance Sheet.
To be fair you seem a lot more clued up than me, I just assumed it would be a while before we showed anywhere near a profit.


Title: Re: Accounts
Post by: CobblerForever on April 05, 2024, 12:36:36 pm
To be fair you seem a lot more clued up than me, I just assumed it would be a while before we showed anywhere near a profit.

I wonder where the profits on the sale of the land now fully acquired will be shown and the actual tax treatment of that.


Title: Re: Accounts
Post by: GrangeParkCobbler on April 05, 2024, 12:46:24 pm
I wonder where the profits on the sale of the land now fully acquired will be shown and the actual tax treatment of that.

Will that depend on who the new registered owners of the land are? Is it Northampton Town Football Club, or is it CDNL (the wholly owned subsidiary)?

In the last set of accounts (June 23) CDNL is still shown as a "dormant company". 


Title: Re: Accounts
Post by: Melbourne Cobbler on April 05, 2024, 12:47:15 pm
I wonder where the profits on the sale of the land now fully acquired will be shown and the actual tax treatment of that.
Which entity or individual(s) actually brought the land?


Title: Re: Accounts
Post by: Terryfenwickatemyhamster on April 05, 2024, 16:57:55 pm


Anyway, there is no right or wrong answer to all this, all I was doing was merely mentioning that some football clubs do find ways of making a bit of money, and those which are losing money should look to them and look at what they are doing right!

I agree entirely GPC. I hope you know wasnít aiming my thoughts at you alone. Just at the inherent difficulty in using a like for like comparisons. I entirely agree that it looks like there is stuff we could implement that works well in other clubs.



Title: Re: Accounts
Post by: Deepcut Cobbler on April 05, 2024, 18:46:51 pm
There are lots of 'good ideas' on here that appear sensible and workable, that could improve the fans (both home and away) experience, that would have the potential to raise a regular income beyond the current activities.
Travelling away to other clubs, I see many examples of activities, both good and bad, that could be used to enhance our own experience(s).
I would also assume that the majority, beyond an initial small outlay, wouldn't cost too much.
It just needs someone (or two) to be dedicated towards their implementation.


Title: Re: Accounts
Post by: Melbourne Cobbler on April 05, 2024, 23:20:30 pm
Meanwhile in the Shangri La that is the Prem

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/68713522


Title: Re: Accounts
Post by: Terryfenwickatemyhamster on April 06, 2024, 04:15:13 am
Meanwhile in the Shangri La that is the Prem

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/68713522

Quite proud of ChelseaÖ Off the pitch  ;D


Title: Re: Accounts
Post by: Zen Master on April 06, 2024, 09:41:48 am
Which entity or individual(s) actually brought the land?
A couple of quid on a land registry search should show this.


Title: Re: Accounts
Post by: Melbourne Cobbler on April 06, 2024, 09:50:04 am
A couple of quid on a land registry search should show this.
I would imagine one of the secret seven jumped on that like Zebedee on crack.


Title: Re: Accounts
Post by: Terryfenwickatemyhamster on April 06, 2024, 11:12:39 am
I would imagine one of the secret seven jumped on that like Zebedee on crack.

 ;D ;D