The Hotel End

https://www.ntfc.co.uk/siteassets/image/202324-season/ntfc---accounts-copy-website.pdf

Quickly perusing those financial statements, the key matter that strikes me is how substantial the loss (approximating to £20k per week) is even after the significant Profit on Disposal of Player Registrations income.

Given the current infrastructure we definitely need a decent Cup run or two as well as fill the house for the significant majority of our home league games.

The owners are still funding the club.

Nothing ground breaking in there.
£1m loss, clearly the Carney money doing some heavy lifting. Assuming the 'asset' is the East Stand?  ;D

The price of promotion and some nice bonuses for the staff.

Chalked another '1' off any profit they will ever make.

It’s unsustainable at this rate.

Accounts bingo….I’m adding ‘Chinese money’ to the card.   :P

It is
Until you have a player you can sell for 3/4 million to bring things back to a more manageable level.
The fact is you do have to speculate to accumulate to achieve this.
That is why Peterborough are sitting on several millions of pounds worth of player assets and we are not.
Let’s see what investment David can get into the club this summer to help us implement a similar plan.

Ipswich lost £18.2m
Portsmouth lost £3.1m
Morecambe lost £1.27m
Shrewsbury lost £3m
Carlisle lost £665k
MK Dons lost £2.2m

(I think all of these are accurate).

Also sat on approx £25m debt, lost around £15m over the last few seasons and had the company that owns the ground so into (and out of) receivership.
There are a lot of clubs you can point at that are financially better ran than Northampton but they sure as s*** are not one of them!

If they don't go up this season they are f***ed.

Did i read somewhere that Leyton Orient lost over £4M ?

We need to crack on and sell our star player Hylton before his contract runs out.

Just under £4M loss in their promotion season. Turnover is similar to ours.

Accounts bingo....I'm adding 'any deloitte's link'....that's Melly screwed.  ;D

I don’t understand the interest in the club’s accounts, but if floats your boat then sail on sailor 😊

Well, I’ve got my extra large bag of salted popcorn at the ready just sitting here waiting for Duston and Luton LLP to give us their insight and how it would have been so much better with the ACV bringing in “up to £250k” a season……

Doesn’t tell half the story, the owner pumping £1m a year into the club is only possible because of the land deal.
If I was spunkîng £1m into something I’d at least want to turn up to see how it was doing.

Can he not see how’s its doing without being there?

I assume he’s got a reasonable wifi connection in Thomas Towers?

Are you serious?

The Chinese money is your moon landing.
#elaboratehoax

7+million in debt to Thomas, /bower,+ amount to spend on east stand, circa £10million that's a memorable figure, this isn't going to end well!!

Spot on mate.

Wrexham lost £5million and after only being there 3 years the Hollywood boys are owed £9million.

I’d imagine they can well afford it and their PR would have brought in a shed load. It’ll get more expensive if they climb higher.

Losing 1 million a year is never going to end well long term

But tet some fans would still like us to spend more on players and be even further in debt

You do know we are in debt to the people that own us ?

You do know that’s the picture for virtually every football league club.

But we are in a better position than most. Because our owners can’t sell the ground to service any debt. 

We are at the thick end of knowing what the end game is. Panicking and scaremongering now won’t change a thing.

Yes that's correct but doesn't mean at some point they won't want to call that debt in

Just been cross referencing this with some of the comments on the FAB thread and the government white paper on reform. I think it’s fair to say it paints a rather confusing picture.

As pointed out Peterborough have run up a massive debt, including significant amounts to external bodies that dropped them right in the shít. Not singling this post out in particular but posts of this type are commonplace. How exactly do people suppose owners are speculating in these scenarios, and where lies and who do you suppose the biggest risk is to? How many times does it have to be said, there is a massive difference between owners who self fund debt and those like Peterborough who expose a club to external risk with outcomes they may not be able to control.

The fact is they absolutely don’t have to speculate like Peterborough, neither should they expose a club and its supporters with a hundred + years of history to it on some personal whim. If the government get their way they won’t, and finally this nonsense and the relentless shít advice from a section of the support base will come to an end.

Like it or not, massive credit to the owners for not subjecting your club to this bóllocks. Q the usual foot stamping hysterics and misinformation.

https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/68128365

Genuine question, what happens if they do? I’m guessing they’re fúcked, perhaps someone knows different.

Sell the £2.531m worth of tangible assets? That probably includes the goalposts.

I’m guessing a lot of that is the estimated value of the playing squad. Good luck with that in a fire sale as part of a “call in” of the debt. It’s all guesswork, but of the circa 7 million debt I reckon they’d maybe get between 1 & 2 million back. Just a hunch but I reckon they’ll perhaps keep doing what they’re doing. Once the East Stand/land projects are completed I wonder what the longer term plan is? I see KT has again welcomed the government white paper proposal.

“These numbers however also highlight the tough challenges that EFL clubs face and the need for a reset of football finances. The recent introduction of the Football Governance Bill and the upcoming appointment of a Football Regulator cannot come soon enough for football.”

Hopefully this initiative will protect the long term future of the club against most eventualities.

The majority of that arises from the initial work on redeveloping the East Stand (refer to the year ended June 30th 2014 financial statements - when the Cordoza's owned the club).

Really, wonder if they can sell those as part of the “debt call in”. I’ll take 3, we always need extra chairs at Christmas.

Sorry. I took the trouble to go back and look at the financial statements in detail and altered my original post - about £131k refers to putting back in the seating.

They’ll obviously recoup a fair amount of that £7m from the land deal. That’s coming knowledge isn’t it?

You know a lot of owners charge interest on the debt owed to them?

Either way, there won’t be any calling in of any debt. There might be a structured repayment following a land deal, looks like that may be interest free too, if the current position is maintained.

To be clear there is actually no legal distinction between calling in and repayment of a debt. One implies immediate and full settlement and the other implies is a reasonable measured repayment process, but in reality there is no difference. Thought I should chuck that in.

Times like this, are like Christmas for the negative. Some of us know nothing has really changed. That the debt rolls at the amount it does. And addition to that, we know it means very little. Others take it as an opportunity to attack the club once again. Everyone who has run the club has done so at a loss. With our current league position and increased attendances, we are heading in the right direction. Of course next year is pivotal. We need to stay up, then see the East stand completed. If either of those are not achieved the club can rightly expect criticism.

And in the long term, I would expect the current owners to leave ( should they choose to do so) with us debt free and ready to face the next challenge.

https://www.northamptonchron.co.uk/sport/football/thomas-comfortable-with-cobblers-financial-position-despite-higher-losses-and-increased-debt-4573035

If you can navigate through the adverts...

Ads included the Northampton Beer Festival at Becketts Park which was ok to scroll past. The next one was Bikini Trends In 2023 May Be Mindblowing. Even though I am 12 months late that presented more of a challenge to navigate through.

Do you think that they would move the goal posts like that?

I think it includes the East Stand so do it.

Exactly.
I would like to see the Club to publish their vision for the future.
For example, where do we want to be in 2030, and how are we going to get there.

Does anyone know the reason why we had "Reduced EFL monies" ?

Haven’t had the time to go through, it looks like just over a 100k cut but that might be wrong. It’s in here.

https://theathletic.com/4957498/2023/10/16/epl-efl-explained-deal-english-football/

https://x.com/kieranmaguire/status/1774035870674244089?s=46&t=u7Y-71UW8bj6jSt3EiAOKA

£19 million in the red. F uck the posh

Interest on loans 16k a week. great way to run a club. Remember, this is the route some of our supporters, who claim to have our best interests at heart, want to take us down in the name of “progress”.

Exactamundo

Had a quick look at this, it’s actually £16,815 a week (£874,421 per annum). At an average season ticket of £350 (£292 before vat) assume the club took all of that money and didn’t off set any match day expenditure against the value. On that basis they still have to sell 3,000 season tickets just to service that debt against an average gate of 8,900. Thats insane.

Who are the loans from?

They owe around a disputed 7 million to a Canadian investment fund that they have just had to restructure the repayments on. Not sure about the rest.

Our other favourites, Oxford United £6 million in debt. They are holding off signing for land between Oxford Parkway and Kidlington for new stadium build.
I'd be happy with expansion of Sixfields to around 10,000 - 12, 000 capacity. Not too fussed about a 5-aside pitch, kids bouncy castle or Box Park...though the club/Stagecoach could take a leaf out of Reading's book regarding buses back into town after the game!
Those from Daventry not affected - always a bus each for the three of you operating every 5 minutes!

Peterborough raised £2.5 million through a bond, but the interest is 9% per annum, plus a one off 15% if they get promoted to the championship before 2026/27.

It's was a five bond, so there will have to pay it back in 2027.

Notes 5 . Tangible fixed asset is the lease to the stadium

Seemingly happy to compare ourselves with clubs losing more money but nobody mentioning clubs who are not in that boat....?

The mighty Walsall, playing in the division below don't forget, have announced an annual turnover of £7.615m, which actually led to them returning into the black, only to the tune of 11k granted, but still a profit.

How about Exeter City? Turnover for the year was £5.844m, and proceeds from player sales was £1.39m, their costs were actually less than their turnover, and as a result they announced a profit for the year of over £300k.

Our accounts show our turnover is 700k less than Exeter (and nearly £2.5m less than Walsall) but our costs were over a million higher than Exeter whilst we too recorded a similar amount from player sales (£1.21m) as they did.

So, are our costs too high, or is our revenue too low? What were we missing out on if at the same time we are recording increased gates, a surge in season ticket revenue (a lot of which would have been banked before the June 30th accounts date) and the fact that the EFL cut in funding was only 100k or so, our turnover fell year on year?

I'm sure there is work going on behind the scenes to try and grow revenue in all areas, and its not just from the fans who turn up every other week. Have we tried to get anyone to take on the naming rights for the stadium since the demise of PTS for example?

It seems at the moment we are in a chicken and egg situation......we won't speculate and pay out money now for a return medium term, but we can't grow the revenue without speculating!

I hope to be pleasantly surprised but I can't see the wishlists being prepared from stakeholders in the Fans Advisory Board are going to amount to anything. I mean, even putting hot water taps in the toilets is a cost which will see nil return on a balance sheet, same goes for an awning/cover for the DJ or whatever.

Fuçking Hell GPC, be careful you’ll have Tel and his gang after you as the infidel for thinking of criticising his holiness KT.

Would imagine our pretty woeful cup form hasn’t helped turnover

I'd be interested what bower and his holiness pay themselves

Lost in the wages figure, a pretty penny I shouldn’t wonder, worth every penny  :P

Wasn't necessarily a dig, more pointing out that it doesn't have to be this way!! I suppose it doesn't really matter when you've got the Chairman declaring that he's(and presumably Mr and Mrs Bower are also) comfortable with the level of losses.

As usual we are better than many examples listed..... Posh for one, but we aren't doing as well as others seemingly are.

The Revenue figures shown in the financial statements for the year ended June 30th 2023 will only include sales of Season tickets applying to season 22/23.

This won't sit well with Melly and the can't speculate, can't accumulate, Duston is a liar crew!

I wouldn't be so sure on that as the balance sheet at 30th June lists "Cash at bank and in hand".... unless they have a way of not banking or at least accounting differently for revenue received in April, May and June in that financial year...it would have to be shown somewhere though!

What are we talking about in terms of speculate to accumulate?.

Just again???

The early sale of season tickets for season 23/24 (cash received before June 30th 2023) will be the most significant part of Deferred Income in Creditors falling due within one year in Note 8. I don't know how our owners manage the Clubs Bank account but it would make sense not to leave monies earning nothing in the bank when they could utilise it elsewhere via their loan account balances.

The accounting treatment will be in compliance with the accruals concept (matching costs with revenues in the period to which they apply).

So if I understand that right and looking at this set of accounts, the £839k deferred in the 2022 accounts would be included in the 2023 accounts and the £1.139m deferred in this set will go into the next set etc etc..... therefore we are "technically" £300k better off than reported?!

The £839k deferred in the 2022 accounts showed up as revenue in the 2023 accounts and the £1.139 million will show up as Revenue in the 2024 accounts.

I wouldn't say we are better off than reported. I would say we were complying with the accruals concept - deferring taking the revenue until the year it is earned (the relevent year the advance season ticket sales games are played).

How about The Hotel End stadium if we all chip in? I am in for a tenner. Twenty if push comes to shove.

Then a lottery for who gets the associated hospitality, like when we sponsored Leeroy

Theres a reason why the reform bill is due to be passed before the end of parliament. Holding up these 2 examples to suggest there shouldn’t be a problem is taking the píss. It’s a fact that NTFC is financially outperforming the majority of the 72 clubs in the EFL, dry your eyes and get over it.

Firstly can I thank you for appointing me to the heady status of, leader of a gang. I very much doubt that I am seen by anyone on here as a leader (other than you of course) but I always take exception with anyone that uses Exeter City as a comparison to any club. Not just us. Exeter has an extensive pool (up to nearly 600 at times) of volunteers who emanate from their fan owned status, who occupy a variety of roles, all of which NTFC have to pay for.

Walsall… I will give you just one example of this not being a level playing field again. Their fùcking huge digital advertising screens that are viewed from the manic M6, now have  5,037 sq ft of LED panels, making it one of the biggest screens in the world and the largest in Europe. With two huge panels at a length of 213ft, it is almost as long as a Boeing 747. plus the advertisements on the large home end behind the goal, raise more than our entire advertising revenue, for the whole of our stadium annually, in a matter of months. These attract revenue year round. In addition to this they have significantly better conferencing and entertainment facilities, hugely assisting their overall revenue.

So… Two further poor comparisons. But.. In my defence, I argue this point the other way as well. So I don’t have a foot in either camp. I realise the pointlessness of comparing anything to something that is not directly  like for like comparable. Including those that we regularly out perform.

It'll be interesting if the playing budget remains the same. Hylton for example could save a couple of hundred grand a year.
With no 'Carney injection' on the horizon (maybe some deferred) we could end up £2m down current year. I don't see us making big bucks from any of the current squad.
I'll sure we'll get some noises close season if JB isn't happy with what he has to play with. We could certainly do with a cup run or two next season.

I think of you as our leader, the spiritual leader. The one to guide us through the maze of what is right and wrong, yes, that's it, the Influencer.


Colonel Deepcut is obviously the Enforcer. Nobody messes with him and gets away with it.


His Excellency is the absent Owner who we can whinge about if things aren't going well, but if there is any success, he'll be there to take the plaudits.

Allow me an abbreviated answer. In the unlikely event that you find yourself in the finance business, imagine someone comes to you with a proposal. If they offer the exceptional rather than the typical or mean as a comparative in any justification, the only thing you need to concern yourself with is remembering to hand them their coat on the way out.

Love Melly (aka Lord Sugar).

Without the exceptional there is no mean, no statistical analysis worth making, no banker evaluating yours or my proposal.
Hell without the exceptional we'd still be waiting for fire and wheels.
Break your own mould Melly, go nuts. Go saccharine.

It works for me mate.

You’ll always be a leader in my eyes Tel. 💙

See Fenners, it's not just me who loves you, Manny does too. FACT.

Well….. If it comes under the now famous “FACT” umbrella. I am truly honoured  ;D

What amazes me is that because KT says he's "Comfortable" with NTFC losing £1M per year everyone thinks its OK. Would he be so "Comfortable" if he didn't have the proceeds of the land deal to pay back the loans? When KT & DB decide to sell up, they will clear their loans and we are left with a business that is losing £1M per year.
   Melly says all clubs lose money, not true, as GPC has pointed out, what I can't get my head around is why we don't look at the clubs that don't lose money and try and be more like them.
     Do people really think we are maximising are matchday income? if not, why not ?. Let me use Wycombe as an example, first think they have electronic adds around 3 sides of the pitch for TV. OK they probably cost a few thousand to install but once you've bought them it's all profit. They must make money or Wycombe won't have installed them.
    This season we knew we would have, on average, over 1,000 away fans each game, do we do anything to get them to spend cash whilst they are at Sixfields? Before someone points out that there is nothing else at Wycombe can I also point out that when the coaches arrive at Sixfields someone from NTFC gets on board and "welcomes" them and points out where to buy tickets, the club shop and where to get food and drink, so it would be quite easy to point them in the direction of any bars run by NTFC.
    Carr's Bar is much too small, we have the decking outside which is fine in dry weather, I did suggest to NTFC about putting a retractable awning over this and was told that the roof support girders prevented this, I have a contact who works for an awning company, and he says that wouldn't be a problem. I went back with this to NTFC and was then told it would be "too expensive". I suggested they ask Carlsberg, or any other company, to sponsor it but I don't think they bothered, why not?
   

Massive reduction in the playing budget needed!

To clarify, I’ve never said at any point that all clubs lose money. I’ve only ever discussed what’s typical and average and posted figures from reputable sources to demonstrate this. So what I’ve illustrated are facts, and they really are facts. Happy to go through it all again and reclarify if necessary. If people still want to bury their heads in the sand following the reality check that’s up to them.

Carton does have a very valid point regards revenue, and not just match day either, what about a gym or polyclinic, meeting rooms for hire, concerts…….

A very valid point, my question would be in the case of Wycombes advertising boards, what did it cost and what does it raise in revenue, or is that some sort of national secret? Ideas are great but that’s all they are, until you dangle the carrot of incentive you and I both know you will struggle to motivate anyone. I don’t know about Carr’s Bar and hospitality is not my thing but a figure that’s been put out there is that the average licensed premises makes around 16p on a pint. How much do you want to spend on Carr’s or similar and do the maths. If it adds up great, if it doesn’t you have a job on your hands getting it off the ground. You’re not daft mate, you know the score.

A few things strike me about this post Roger. Firstly, nobody thinks this: “KT says he's "Comfortable" with NTFC losing £1M per year everyone thinks it’s OK”. That's not true. Every supporter, given the alternative, of making a profit, would take that as preferable.

The other thing is the use of certain clubs making a profit. When we both know, and I have explained this earlier, that the comparisons are a mile off being like for like. Exeter run an army of volunteers in roles that we have to pay for. I will deal with Walsall in a business analogy that would appeal to us. Imagine you run an electrical contracting company, and you have a direct rival. Your rival has one of the largest digital advertising screens around. In one of the busiest areas in Europe. Which is viewed by millions each year. They also own their own property, and have the ability to attract year round revenue. You own an oversized TV in a Sixfields car park, and a run down council house. How are either of those relevant to us?

The rest of your suggestions, I fully agree with, and as usual, I know that you are ever pro-active and are always fair in putting those points across. The Trust is dead in the water Roger. But the club would benefit hugely from the ideas that well intentioned supporters like you have.

I would think that Wycombe did look into it before buying them Dale, but it shouldn't be difficult for someone like NTFC to get the big picture. You say the average licenced premises make 16p per pint, I think with a bar at a football ground would ,probably, make a bit more than that. We only have TGI Fridays as the "away" bar competition and they are certainly not Witherspoons prices
    Coming back to Tels point about paying for staff, why don't NTFC ask for a few volunteers, work in Carr's from 1 till 3 and 5 till 6 and get a free match ticket? I'm sure a few would be interested

There was a news article on Sky yesterday regarding the price of a pint and it broke down how much an an average pint cost and why.....with the wholesale cost, wastage, staff costs, rent/utilities and even CO2 were taken off the profit margin came in at 83p a pint.

As I brought up Walsall, I can't find details of exactly how much their big screen brings in. it was touted as potentially seven figures per year but does not seem to have brought in anything like this as it has been felt that a lot of the time it is broken, and when it does work it tends to advertise local businesses rather than the other screens around on the M6 corridor which feature "blue chip companies". One of the big advertising companies is going to attract the sort of business that Walsall's commercial department never could!

Exeter, yes they have many volunteers but the point was they brought in a million pounds more revenue than we did. If a few hundred volunteers can bring in that type of money then lets go for it!!

Anyway, there is no right or wrong answer to all this, all I was doing was merely mentioning that some football clubs do find ways of making a bit of money, and those which are losing money should look to them and look at what they are doing right!

This is where I got my info from, 31p split between brewery and licensee = 15.5p each. Sky might be right this might be wrong, but I’m not pulling this stuff out of my arśe.

https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/bills/article-12356477/This-price-pint-pays-cost-beer-rises.html

Rog, I’m not saying it wouldn’t work , I’m just quoting the figures I’ve read. 4000 pints at 16p equals £640. 4000 pints at 83p equals £3,320.00 both options are less 20% corporation tax on any profit obviously. The question is what do these clubs make with a fan village etc, again it can’t be a national secret. What are the best performing clubs, who turns over the most money on non ticket match day sales per spectator and why, who makes the most profit on non ticket match day sales and why? There is actually no need to guess if you are smart about it and do the leg work.

Regarding Corporation Tax;

If you are saying it is the club (NTFC) making the profit on sales of alcohol the club has enormous corporation tax losses brought forward to set against the profit.

Correct, but I was talking generally, assuming we are talking about an entity operating in the black, which is the suggestion.

Thanks for the clarification.

The Cobblers must have tax losses brought forward in the region of £9.2 million (roughly the retained losses figure). A potential Deferred Tax Asset of £1.84 million (9.2 million x 20%) not currently recognised on the Balance Sheet.

To be fair you seem a lot more clued up than me, I just assumed it would be a while before we showed anywhere near a profit.

I wonder where the profits on the sale of the land now fully acquired will be shown and the actual tax treatment of that.

Will that depend on who the new registered owners of the land are? Is it Northampton Town Football Club, or is it CDNL (the wholly owned subsidiary)?

In the last set of accounts (June 23) CDNL is still shown as a "dormant company". 

Which entity or individual(s) actually brought the land?

I agree entirely GPC. I hope you know wasn’t aiming my thoughts at you alone. Just at the inherent difficulty in using a like for like comparisons. I entirely agree that it looks like there is stuff we could implement that works well in other clubs.

There are lots of 'good ideas' on here that appear sensible and workable, that could improve the fans (both home and away) experience, that would have the potential to raise a regular income beyond the current activities.
Travelling away to other clubs, I see many examples of activities, both good and bad, that could be used to enhance our own experience(s).
I would also assume that the majority, beyond an initial small outlay, wouldn't cost too much.
It just needs someone (or two) to be dedicated towards their implementation.

Meanwhile in the Shangri La that is the Prem

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/68713522

Quite proud of Chelsea… Off the pitch  ;D

A couple of quid on a land registry search should show this.

I would imagine one of the secret seven jumped on that like Zebedee on crack.

 ;D ;D