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David Cardoza Vote

Poll
Question: What would your action be?
He needs to leave, now. - 15 (16%)
Let's see how the development pans out. - 23 (24.5%)
Who else is there? - 9 (9.6%)
He's a local hero and I fully back him. - 35 (37.2%)
Don't care anymore. - 12 (12.8%)
Total Voters: 85

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Author Topic: David Cardoza Vote  (Read 7591 times)
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The 12th Marquis of Sixfields
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« Reply #20 on: July 31, 2014, 13:30:40 pm »

Thems the rules. Do what you like and as long as you add a "Feel free" (thanks for your invitations by the way) you're good to go
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« Reply #21 on: July 31, 2014, 13:34:21 pm »

You're right London Cobbler 81. Cardoza has never done anything wrong ever and everything that has ever gone wrong during his tenure is somebody else's fault. Everyone should just shut up and be thankful.

Nice, subtle attempt at satire there.

However, no one is claiming that Cardoza 'has never done anything wrong ever'. DC himself has admitted to making mistakes over the years.
Time will tell whether this redevelopment is another one.

However, unlike you, some of us need to see a bit more information than an artist's impression, some cursory drive-by-reports and a couple of dodgy rumors before spitting our dummies out and calling for radical change.






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lift tower
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« Reply #22 on: July 31, 2014, 13:41:36 pm »

Nice, subtle attempt at satire there.

However, no one is claiming that Cardoza 'has never done anything wrong ever'.


"London Cobbler 81" pretty much is.
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« Reply #23 on: July 31, 2014, 13:43:53 pm »

lift tower / sbedscob - somehow I knew I would end up regretting getting involved.  However, here goes...

As with any business I'm sure not every decision has been 100% correct and perhaps my previous post didn't spell that out.

However, I would agree that Cardoza's overriding strategy to develop non-match day revenue in order to generate more income to invest into the match day squad is spot on.

To my knowledge the club has not been "gifted the money", it is a loan.  No doubt on more favourable rates than an open-market lender would provide, but a loan that needs servicing nonetheless.

Extra seats do not generate any additional revenue for the club on their own, only combined with improved performance on the pitch and progression upwards through the football league.  So the financial benefit of the extra seats is beholden to the performance of the team on the pitch.

The decision to invest the bulk of the money in conference facilities, corporate hospitality and a hotel are designed to increase the income which is not dependent on match day performance (although I accept the corporate hospitality is, to an extent, related to performance).  Thereby securing the financial stability of the club and safeguarding it against the ups and downs of the team's performance.

Assuming that these projects deliver a cash contribution in excess of the loan servicing costs, there will be more money to invest in the team, providing a better chance of progression than rows and rows of empty seats.

Obviously, should this be successful there will come a time when a capacity of 8,000 (or whatever it is) will be insufficient, but lets deal with this as and when it becomes a problem.

Building the seats before you have the financial structure in place to deliver a top half league one team is putting the cart before the horse and will lead to (a) thousands of empty seats, (b) poorer atmosphere and (c) increased chance of insolvency.

Alternatively, I could be wrong.  Let's spend £6 million on extra seats, £6 million on the team (not that the loan would allow this I'm sure) and have a party until the money runs out and then we can start again.  Northamptonshire Combination League anyone?
« Last Edit: July 31, 2014, 13:46:25 pm by LondonCobbler81 » Report Spam   Logged
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« Reply #24 on: July 31, 2014, 13:51:00 pm »

I've suggested a viable alternative. He hands over chairmanship to somebody who knows what they're doing. Unfortunately that ship probably sailed about 8 (at least) years ago.

A new game to play though is "Guess which of the new members is a 'Friend of The Club'"

In the past, DC was out of his depth when appointing managers. I could see the argument at that stage for appointing some sort of director of football with a bit more nous. Having said that, the last three appointments (GJ, AB and CW) all made a lot of sense on paper and CW specifically mentioned DC's good reputation 'within football' as part of his decision to move.  

As I've argued upteen times before, it's too early to state with authority whether the redevelopment will be success or not. It is however hard to think of a potential chairman with more experience in the field. There's plenty of armchair economists and construction magnates on here who think they could do better, but at the end of the day we won't get a proper sense of the finished project until later this year.  

The one area in which I'll accept DC does need outside help is in his handling of PR. He has been guilty of raising expectations rather than managing them. What he needs to do now is making it very clear that timescales and plans are always subject to change. I also think that talk of 'Championship football' should be put on hold until if and when we've reached the dizzy heights of League One - one step at a time.

« Last Edit: July 31, 2014, 13:52:59 pm by bungle » Report Spam   Logged
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« Reply #25 on: July 31, 2014, 14:05:26 pm »

lift tower / sbedscob - somehow I knew I would end up regretting getting involved. 
Thanks for taking a break from work at sixfields to join the debate Dave  Tongue

How much money will seats with restricted views make?

Seriously though, this argument about extra seats not being needed at the moment and we will put them in as and when needed is pretty horrendous when it was pretty much what Cardoza said was needed and promised us all along. Some of us on here went on a march as we wanted a bigger and better stadium. I bet Oxford were told the stand behind their goal that's a car park would be built when needed too.

Having a nice big 12,000 seater stadium is a statement of the club's intent. It attracts potential signings, if you were a player being shown round what would be more attractive, one that made you think "wow these guys have got a championship set up here" or one that made you think "wow, a stand that looks like morecambe's"?

If he'd done the redevelopment right and marketed it as a "new stadium" with a big advertising campaign it might have even boosted the attendance from people curious what it was like. I wouldn't even have minded if he'd done that in conjunction with selling the name rights as its not as if the sixfields name means a lot to fans. I know the club does give out freebies to local schools/clubs etc but you could do a huge campaign in the area to attract the next generation of fans with a bigger stadium. There a reason MK  Evil have been able to grow their support from zero to an average 7,000.

Overall I think Cardoza makes the right noises, from what he says its seems like hes basically trying to do what Barwell did up the road with the saints where he invested loads of money, made them self sustainable and was then able to take his loans out with the club operating at a profit every year since. Its just it looks like this chapter of his ownership doesn't look like its going in the right direction and its a bit worrying.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2014, 14:08:33 pm by lift tower » Report Spam   Logged

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« Reply #26 on: July 31, 2014, 14:22:06 pm »

Thanks for taking a break from work at sixfields to join the debate Dave  Tongue

I appreciate that this was most likely tongue in cheek, however, I actually work in Business Advisory for a global accountancy practice.  I have no vested interest in Northampton Town FC other than as a fan wanting them to do well.

I appreciate a large stadium would be a "statement of intent", but that is useless without the ability to get you moving up the football pyramid.

Lets be honest about professional footballers, especially at this level, big shiny 12,000 seater stadium, or extra £ on their wages, I'm pretty confident I know which they would choose.

I haven't conducted the analysis, but I would guess that playing well and competing at the right end of the division, or in a higher division, correlates with increased attendances, any increase in attendance from just having a larger and nicer stadium, combined with a marketing campaign, would be minimal and short-lived without the performance to back it up.

In relation to how much revenue the restricted view seats will generate, none, together with many of the non-restricted view seats until we are competing in the top half of league one, which is a fair way away for a team who were going to be relegated to non-league football for a period of the last game of last season.
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« Reply #27 on: July 31, 2014, 14:23:09 pm »

lift tower / sbedscob - somehow I knew I would end up regretting getting involved.  However, here goes...

As with any business I'm sure not every decision has been 100% correct and perhaps my previous post didn't spell that out.

However, I would agree that Cardoza's overriding strategy to develop non-match day revenue in order to generate more income to invest into the match day squad is spot on.

To my knowledge the club has not been "gifted the money", it is a loan.  No doubt on more favourable rates than an open-market lender would provide, but a loan that needs servicing nonetheless.

Extra seats do not generate any additional revenue for the club on their own, only combined with improved performance on the pitch and progression upwards through the football league.  So the financial benefit of the extra seats is beholden to the performance of the team on the pitch.

The decision to invest the bulk of the money in conference facilities, corporate hospitality and a hotel are designed to increase the income which is not dependent on match day performance (although I accept the corporate hospitality is, to an extent, related to performance).  Thereby securing the financial stability of the club and safeguarding it against the ups and downs of the team's performance.

Assuming that these projects deliver a cash contribution in excess of the loan servicing costs, there will be more money to invest in the team, providing a better chance of progression than rows and rows of empty seats.

Obviously, should this be successful there will come a time when a capacity of 8,000 (or whatever it is) will be insufficient, but lets deal with this as and when it becomes a problem.

Building the seats before you have the financial structure in place to deliver a top half league one team is putting the cart before the horse and will lead to (a) thousands of empty seats, (b) poorer atmosphere and (c) increased chance of insolvency.

Alternatively, I could be wrong.  Let's spend £6 million on extra seats, £6 million on the team (not that the loan would allow this I'm sure) and have a party until the money runs out and then we can start again.  Northamptonshire Combination League anyone?

Its a loan to be covered by housing sales, so an absolute gift..which looks like we've wasted.
 10,000 was the promise, 8200 is what we're getting..because of his insistence on executive vip cabins in the sky!

How you or anyone can justify trying to sell and promote a  football club in a town of nearly quarter of a million, 650,000 in the county with a ground only capable of housing 6500 and claim it makes good business sense to wait until tens of thousands £££ in potential business is turned away and not catered for due to restricted capacity? It tells me 2 things..

1, they're seriously doing the wrong job.
2, they don't give a 5hit for the future of this football club and are happy seeing it rot away at the bottom tier or worse.
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« Reply #28 on: July 31, 2014, 14:31:31 pm »

Its a loan to be covered by housing sales, so an absolute gift..which looks like we've wasted.
 10,000 was the promise, 8200 is what we're getting..because of his insistence on executive vip cabins in the sky!

How you or anyone can justify trying to sell and promote a  football club in a town of nearly quarter of a million, 650,000 in the county with a ground only capable of housing 6500 and claim it makes good business sense to wait until tens of thousands £££ in potential business is turned away and not catered for due to restricted capacity? It tells me 2 things..

1, they're seriously doing the wrong job.
2, they don't give a 5hit for the future of this football club and are happy seeing it rot away at the bottom tier or worse.


Or maybe it just tells you one thing - they have a different perspective to you.

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« Reply #29 on: July 31, 2014, 14:34:34 pm »

I haven't conducted the analysis, but I would guess that playing well and competing at the right end of the division, or in a higher division, correlates with increased attendances, any increase in attendance from just having a larger and nicer stadium, combined with a marketing campaign, would be minimal and short-lived without the performance to back it up.
Brighton, Rotherham, Swansea and Hull seem to have done pretty well attendance wise and on the pitch after their moves.
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« Reply #30 on: July 31, 2014, 14:50:38 pm »

I didn't think it would be long before a few mystery apologists arrived spouting supposed "business sense."

Welcome to the debate LondonCobbler81 but I think you'll find you're not allowed an opinion from so far away but you will have to check with evers about that.

Few points, absolutely agree this club needs off field revenue to even survive but your economic background would tell you that.

As lift tower and sbeds have rightly pointed out a combination of seats and off field opportunities are required. Nobody from your school of economics was shouting at Mr Winkleman when he invested in 30,000 of them plus corporate facilities. With just one game of big interest a large crowd can be accommodated re MK v Wolves etc, this makes money quickly and new found support who enjoy the experience come back. MK again, but their banks of empty seats enabled them to a 9000 average last season and it's this money that can help sustain football at a higher division rather than yo-yo as we have done because of the lack of facilities.

If your's and DC's economic argument works so well for corporate facilities why has DC sat for 10 years and not installed facilities in the west stand before? If it's guaranteed to work why has he waited for this money instead of finding a relatively small amount for these works?

Once built seats cost little to maintain but offices/restaurants/corporate facilities cost lots to heat and maintain unless used.

Also the argument that seats can quickly be installed would only come from an economist not a builder, that is why even with 12m available DC and his family firm have taken 3 months to take off a roof.

I'm sorry but 80 odd other league clubs with greater capacities say you're wrong.
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« Reply #31 on: July 31, 2014, 14:53:46 pm »


It is however hard to think of a potential chairman with more experience in the field.


Supporting the chairman is one thing but there is no need to take the p*ss.
Experience in what? Throwing money down the drain?

Has he got experience in creating a successful 7 day conferencing facility?
In the development of a money making football club?
In getting a club out of the bottom two tiers?
In offering his paying customers good VFM? (inc ticketing, club shop etc)

Some people seem to talk as though he has had no chance to do anything before this loan was secured.
He has spent 7 figures, several times over to get us almost relegated out of the league. You can blame the succession of managers all you like but there has been one common denominator. Blaming bad luck can only take you so far.

If he gets us to the Championship and either sells up, or walks away without us owing a penny then I'll be the first in the queue to see the statue. Forget the Championship even, debt free in League 1 would do.

Some of you make him out to be Bill Kenwright.
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« Reply #32 on: July 31, 2014, 15:06:38 pm »

especially at this level, big shiny 12,000 seater stadium,


Oh by the way 12k isn't big for this level the average capacity for clubs at this level is:  League one =   16,148 League two =   10,326

Not 8900. But who cares for figures in business advisory? It's not your money!

Oh and bungle please do explain where the £2 million will quickly come from later to add 2000 seats to accommodate league one away support? We can't even accommodate Mansfield right now.

We came 89th last season did you notice?

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« Reply #33 on: July 31, 2014, 15:15:57 pm »

I am reluctant to rehash the arguments that I have already set out in some detail.  Obviously everyone has their own opinion and is entitled to it.

Although I am obviously not party to the details of the loan, I would imagine the club has to service the interest payments on the loan until the houses are built and it can be paid off.  After all the council has borrowed it from central government at a "low interest rate" and must be passing this on to the club as a minimum.

In general I don't disagree with the arguments that many of you make in relation to the larger ground.  It would be great and a larger, nicer, facility would probably put a few more bums on seats next year.  But not as much as competing at the right end of the table.

To advocate increasing the size of the stadium further without investing in the off-field income generating leaves the club even more financial exposed to the ups and downs of the team on the field.

It's a question of which you prioritise first.  My option would be to go for the stability of greater income, invest this in the team to have a better chance of improving performance and moving up the ladder.  As a minimum you then have a financially stable club.  This is a traditionally bottom tier football club, which, the 1960's and last season apart, has enjoyed one of its most successful spells over the last 18 years.  Still we are a long way off the Championship.

Competing at the right end of league one and not having enough seats I would take vs having thousands of empty seats and risking the financial stability of the club.

Perhaps the 10 years working in business restructuring and recovery has, however, made me a little risk averse!
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« Reply #34 on: July 31, 2014, 15:29:17 pm »

Nobody from your school of economics was shouting at Mr Winkleman when he invested in 30,000 of them plus corporate facilities. With just one game of big interest a large crowd can be accommodated re MK v Wolves etc, this makes money quickly and new found support who enjoy the experience come back. MK again, but their banks of empty seats enabled them to a 9000 average last season and it's this money that can help sustain football at a higher division rather than yo-yo as we have done because of the lack of facilities.
The annoying thing is this something that Cardoza was arguing when he wasn't getting what he wanted from the Council! I remember when we played Leeds and Forest in league one and he was saying how much money we were losing because we could have sold more tickets!
It's a question of which you prioritise first.  My option would be to go for the stability of greater income, invest this in the team to have a better chance of improving performance and moving up the ladder.  As a minimum you then have a financially stable club.  
If you want to keep your customers onside, and remember for lower league clubs gate receipts are the main source of income, its probably best to prioritise the option you have been promising them for ten years.
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« Reply #35 on: July 31, 2014, 15:32:14 pm »

Yep I said it many times,  IF this development was REALLY going to make the club so successful and profitable then WHY did DC not do it years ago

My opinion is that he is and always has been mainly interested in the  HOUSING part of the development / land

The fact that there is a football club business attached was first seen as a bonus, that a 5 year plan would see his initial few million quid investment triple or more when sold on as a Championship club.

Problem was the council failed to play ball (did they know something then that some of us are starting to think we know now ??).

When that day finally dawned what did DC do?   He pulled the plug, only doing the minimum possible, not investing one penny unless he had too, he cut staff and the quality / experience of the staff. The playing side was on a fair budget although why all those loans, expect he thought it worked with Jones, Little etc etc, or again just a really cheap way of getting players. Result no players who bothered about club, everyone coming and going, result = 2 relegation scraps and lots of money wasted on players and managers (but at least it brought him the support of many gullible fans)

This whole development fiasco mirrors everything poor inside the club (except 2 or 3  very good members of full time staff) that has resulted in where we are today. It is just easier to see and more people care about it. After all the standards around the club are abysmal, from ticketing, club shop, ball boys (sorry Tommy), catering etc etc etc. Some don't bother or think it is not important but believe me it is

So all this restricted views, extra seats, extra revenue is all nonsense while DC maintains his same approach of aloofness and arrogance. Do you know what my family have given their time free of charge for the last 4 seasons to the club and ultimately DC. Guess how many times DC has made an effort to speak with them?     How many times have they been invited to end of season do's or special events or received a special thank you?    Ans: you don't need any fingers or toes for the answer

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« Reply #36 on: July 31, 2014, 15:37:57 pm »

160 pages of b*ll*cks on the Redevelopment topic now this sh*te. The same people with the same comments repeated over and over again are now on this topic saying the same things. Please make it stop!!!!!!!!
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« Reply #37 on: July 31, 2014, 15:39:07 pm »

Oh by the way 12k isn't big for this level the average capacity for clubs at this level is:  League one =   16,148 League two =   10,326

Not 8900. But who cares for figures in business advisory? It's not your money!

Oh and bungle please do explain where the £2 million will quickly come from later to add 2000 seats to accommodate league one away support? We can't even accommodate Mansfield right now.

We came 89th last season did you notice?



I will put the personal slant down to a general lack of intelligence on your part and/or no particularly strong argument to substantiate your points.

The average capacity figures are meaningless.  All that means is that they have heaps of empty seats most of the time.

Here's some figures for you:

Average attendance in League 2 (2013/14) - 4,352
Excluding Portsmouth (who have a fan base we would never match) - 3,869

Average attendance in League 1 (2013/14) - 7,474
Excluding Wolves and Shef Utd (for the same reason) - 6,409

However, all clubs are quite different.  For example, we had a better than average league two attendance despite a woeful season.  

Perhaps a reasonable comparison would be Brentford, (I seem to remember that they have used to draw similar attendances to us when we were in the same division) and they had a very good season.

What was their average attendance in their best season since 1998 (when they were bank rolled by Ron Noades)?  7,715

No doubt they did hit their capacity for the latter games of the season and lost some revenue as a result.  But we will not lose out on substantial sums unless or until we are ridding high in league one and a significant increase in the stadium size on its own will not suck goals into the opposition net.
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« Reply #38 on: July 31, 2014, 15:41:30 pm »

Thanks for all that, random. Not a good name, however, as you spout the same bile all the time rather than random bile. You're like a dog that pukes up its dinner, then eats it again, and so on and so on. Give us all a break. I'm sure you're a local boy and can get to see the Chairman easier than Dog. Get off your arse and do something positive.

As if!
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"Andrew Ellis was very much against what was going on. The Cardozas were strictly about business and development so that was him out the door. Andrew Ellis was only ever a football man."

*****And he appointed Terry Fenwick*****
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« Reply #39 on: July 31, 2014, 15:45:03 pm »


What was their average attendance in their best season since 1998 (when they were bank rolled by Ron Noades)?  7,715

No doubt they did hit their capacity for the latter games of the season and lost some revenue as a result.  But we will not lose out on substantial sums unless or until we are ridding high in league one and a significant increase in the stadium size on its own will not suck goals into the opposition net.
How come Brentford are trying to get a 20,000 seater stadium built then?
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