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Ched Evans

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Manwork04
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« Reply #40 on: January 05, 2015, 22:09:46 pm »

This is the thread that made me stop posting on The Hotel End.

Absolutely appalling.

 Grin bye
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« Reply #41 on: January 05, 2015, 22:12:58 pm »

Should this thread even be in Cobblers Corner ?
Just asking like.
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« Reply #42 on: January 05, 2015, 23:58:49 pm »

It's topical to many teams and their fans. If not Oldham who knows which club will be linked with him next. It could be us.
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« Reply #43 on: January 06, 2015, 00:07:03 am »

If his appeal is successful, maybe. As it stands he can fcuk right off, would bring shame to our club and probably put a lot of people off attending. Who's gonna bring their daughter to a game to cheer on a team where the star striker's a convicted rapist? Not worth it.
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« Reply #44 on: January 06, 2015, 06:34:26 am »

It's a difficult one. Rape is a reprehensible crime and once someone has been convicted of it I have no time for them and would struggle to come to terms with cheering them on if they played for us. The more you read about this case though the more dubious the conviction sounds.
Considering it is essentially one person's word against another, and one of those people was so out of it on drink and drugs they have no recollection of events it's very difficult to see how the court can find in favour of that person's version of events.
This is especially true when you include the comments overheard by the taxi driver and the mobile phone footage. Sure, these don't prove that a rape did or didn't occur later in the evening, but they do suggest that earlier in the evening she was consentual to some acts. Of course, that doesn't mean she consented to anything else, but it does cast doubt.

And therein lies the reason why I think his conviction will be overturned; I really can't see how, in the absence of physical evidence, a jury can reach a verdict that is beyond reasonable doubt. Being entirely objective about it, while events in that room were almost certainly rather unsavoury, it's pretty much impossible to prove either way.
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« Reply #45 on: January 06, 2015, 08:08:29 am »



And therein lies the reason why I think his conviction will be overturned; I really can't see how, in the absence of physical evidence, a jury can reach a verdict that is beyond reasonable doubt. Being entirely objective about it, while events in that room were almost certainly rather unsavoury, it's pretty much impossible to prove either way.

But that is the basis of many rape/child abuse cases, one word against the other. Depends on the judge and if he wants a unanimous of majority verdict. I sat on the jury of an historical abuse case and the judge settled for a 10/2 guilty verdict, after initially wanting a unanimous one. You're not going to be dealing with a lot of physical evidence. I also know a case of someone doing jury service, when several jurors quickly settled on a decision as the judge stopped their smoke breaks! So it's hardly a watertight process but it's the law of the land.
Having said that there appears to be a lot of evidence in this case which may not all have been used.
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« Reply #46 on: January 06, 2015, 09:48:15 am »

Considering it is essentially one person's word against another....

I'm not sure it's even that: my understanding is that the victim doesn't claim to have any recollection of the events in the hotel room and that Evans was convicted (and McDonald acquitted) effectively on the basis of their own evidence....and that there is no forensic evidence so that they could simply have walked away if they had said nothing at all. Of course, you could argue that if they have effectively described a rape but don't perceive it as such, then all the more reason that Evans should be removed from society for a spell to get a different perspective on his actions.
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« Reply #47 on: January 06, 2015, 10:55:09 am »

In all honesty I think there should be a differential between "Rape" and perhaps a lesser charge of sexual assault. Then if you meet a girl at an event, you both have a few too many drinks, end up in bed, then in the morning realise you've both made a big mistake, you wont then be open to the highly emotional charge of RAPE!
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« Reply #48 on: January 06, 2015, 11:25:19 am »

In all honesty I think there should be a differential between "Rape" and perhaps a lesser charge of sexual assault. Then if you meet a girl at an event, you both have a few too many drinks, end up in bed, then in the morning realise you've both made a big mistake, you wont then be open to the highly emotional charge of RAPE!
If I was faced with a couple of years in prison for a drunken shag, I'd be emotional too.
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« Reply #49 on: January 06, 2015, 11:32:45 am »

In all honesty I think there should be a differential between "Rape" and perhaps a lesser charge of sexual assault. Then if you meet a girl at an event, you both have a few too many drinks, end up in bed, then in the morning realise you've both made a big mistake, you wont then be open to the highly emotional charge of RAPE!

There is a clear differential already and I think it's pretty clear what Rape is.  Sexual Assault is an umbrella term that covers rape among other things.  You can be charged with "lesser" sexual assault offences.

Part of the problem is a lot of people, men specifically, either don't understand or want to accept that rape isn't always a violent crime.  The attitude has to change where you accept that if the person you are having sex with is incapable, unwilling or unable to consent for whatever reason you are committing rape.

I also think people don't realise just how difficult it is to prove that in a court of law anyway when it is one word against another.  Remember in this country whether you believe it or not you have to be proved guilty not innocent.

Re Ched Evans is clearly a difficult case made more confusing by one person being found innocent while the other guilty.  However he was tried in a court of law and found guilty.  He was also denied leave to appeal.  I don't like hearing people throw "evidence" around that wasn't used in court as there is always a reason it wasn't used in court and that is usually a very good reason.  I also think that most of what people know about the case will have come with a bias to one side or the other.

I wouldn't want him at my club and it doesn't appear he has learnt much from the whole ordeal other than not to cheat on his girlfriend.  Whether you like it or not footballers are role models to people especially youngsters.  
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« Reply #50 on: January 06, 2015, 11:45:49 am »

The facts are he was found guilty in court, served some time in prison and the decision is now being appealed.

I have no idea what actually happened just like everyone else on here.

What I do know is that trial by social media is a very dangerous thing indeed.

Hopefully the appeal process will help provide some kind of closure to the issue either way.

Completely agree with this.
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« Reply #51 on: January 06, 2015, 11:48:36 am »

In all honesty I think there should be a differential between "Rape" and perhaps a lesser charge of sexual assault. Then if you meet a girl at an event, you both have a few too many drinks, end up in bed, then in the morning realise you've both made a big mistake, you wont then be open to the highly emotional charge of RAPE!

When I was younger and before meeting Mrs Drilling Cobbler I was raped on many occasions. I know this because of the amount of fat munters I woke up next to after a night out and having had no recollection of how they got there.

NOW. For the benefit of others. I am not making a joke of what is a very serious crime. However I am in full agreement with Marvo. The basis of rape should be re-defined for the benefit of society. Whether you agree with the law as it is at present or not is immaterial. BUT being given drunken consent could well end up with any bloke, married or not...being charged with and being labelled a rapist. Naturally, the chances of this happening to a famous person are far higher for obvious reasons if they end up with the wrong 'lady'.

Whether or not this happened in this case is open to debate but I would say, taking a look at the facts of the case etc and reading every angle of it online (from basic Sheff UTD football fans to Women Lib leaders) then the general consensus of those who believe Ched Evans to be a rapist are those who consider drunken consent to be NO CONSENT. Unfortunately there isn't a 'legal limit' like there is in driving so hopefully you will get my drift.

The most telling point of this was how the other guy got found not guilty, given that the 'victim' supposedly couldn't remember a thing. So how did the jury/judge come to that conclusion?

It is a very very dangerous assumption to make, and if push came to shove I would guess that the jury (who couldn't initially come to a unanimous verdict) ended up 'guessing' after 3 weeks of jury service. The judge did not request a majority ruling from them in this case.

So for those who are totally scathing of the bloke, perhaps you should read up a little about the case yourselves (not media related articles) and then make a judgement. Because at the very least it will put doubt in your mind. And for that, awaiting the outcome of the appeal may be a sensible thing to do. *

* note that I have not at all gone down the line of he's done his crime, served his crime argument like many of those who say he should be able to resume his career have done. If he is proved to be a rapist then football should not welcome him back in my opinion. I said the same about Hughes and the Plymouth (now Oxford) keeper. 'I just do not believe that he is guilty of it'....
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« Reply #52 on: January 06, 2015, 12:10:57 pm »

I wouldn't want him at my club and it doesn't appear he has learnt much from the whole ordeal other than not to cheat on his girlfriend.  Whether you like it or not footballers are role models to people especially youngsters.  
[/quote

So should all convicted criminals be banned from playing football? Clarke Carsile is a convicted drink driver who it would seem didn't learn from his conviction and could easily have killed someone like hughes and McCormick did. Lee Collins played for our club whilst wearing a tag for assault. This case has now turned into a media witch hunt, Ched needs to go away and fight his case only then will he be given a chance or run out of the country.
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« Reply #53 on: January 06, 2015, 12:25:23 pm »

I think the fact he hasn't shown remorse at all hasn't helped. The media has jumped on that and it would make it hard to rejoin a football club.

Should he be allowed to? Sure, if he can find one that would take him. It's not about his right to return to work, if signing him will mean losing sponsors because they don't want to associate with such a high-profile case then it becomes a financial decision.

I can understand not showing remorse if he feels the verdict is incorrect, and if thats the case he needs to appeal and probably wait for the decision. Otherwise he's free to work in McDonalds if they'll have him.

If the crime was that bad how come he is out after 2.5 years.... I find that ridiculously contradictory.
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« Reply #54 on: January 06, 2015, 12:48:53 pm »

So should all convicted criminals be banned from playing football? Clarke Carsile is a convicted drink driver who it would seem didn't learn from his conviction and could easily have killed someone like hughes and McCormick did. Lee Collins played for our club whilst wearing a tag for assault. This case has now turned into a media witch hunt, Ched needs to go away and fight his case only then will he be given a chance or run out of the country.

No I don't believe that and never said that.  It's a case of what rehabilitation that individual has had and how willing they are to admit their mistakes and make a real effort to right their wrongs.  If a TV personality was found guilty of rape would they be able or expect to just walk back into a top role in their industry.  That's the reality.  Any criminal conviction carries with it the risk that it could harm or end certain career paths.

The simple question is, would I want a convicted rapist to represent the team I support and the simple answer for me is no.
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« Reply #55 on: January 06, 2015, 12:59:15 pm »

Why would it be OK for a convicted rapist to work in McDonalds?  Are the young girls who work in McDonalds worth less than any other women? I'm not making any judgements on Evans - just wondering how one job is ok and another one isn't.
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« Reply #56 on: January 06, 2015, 13:05:15 pm »

Should this thread even be in Cobblers Corner ?
Just asking like.
[/quote
+1. It currently has nothing to do with The Cobblers.
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« Reply #57 on: January 06, 2015, 13:07:27 pm »

When I was younger and before meeting Mrs Drilling Cobbler I was raped on many occasions. I know this because of the amount of fat munters I woke up next to after a night out and having had no recollection of how they got there.

NOW. For the benefit of others. I am not making a joke of what is a very serious crime. However I am in full agreement with Marvo. The basis of rape should be re-defined for the benefit of society. Whether you agree with the law as it is at present or not is immaterial. BUT being given drunken consent could well end up with any bloke, married or not...being charged with and being labelled a rapist. Naturally, the chances of this happening to a famous person are far higher for obvious reasons if they end up with the wrong 'lady'.

Whether you meant to make or joke or not you clearly have made it one which is a shame.

What do you want it redefined to? Perhaps it's not the definition that's the problem it's your acceptance or understanding of the current one that needs to change?

The problem is we focus on this one case but ignore the thousands that don't even get to court or or are found not guilty through a lack of evidence.  From my experience the general public have a very unrealistic perception of how easy it is to a) even get to court and then b) obtain successful convictions for matters as complex and difficult as this.  As I said previously you have to be proven guilty beyond reasonable doubt.  Think about what that means.  The prosecution have to prove a rape has taken place.  If it comes down to simply word against word think how difficult that is to prove.
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« Reply #58 on: January 06, 2015, 13:25:13 pm »

Why would it be OK for a convicted rapist to work in McDonalds?  Are the young girls who work in McDonalds worth less than any other women? I'm not making any judgements on Evans - just wondering how one job is ok and another one isn't.
staff at McDonald's are not hero worshippedlike footballers  are. Like it or not but footballers are role models for kids. They see and hear what Evans did and they think it's ok to behave like that .
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« Reply #59 on: January 06, 2015, 15:32:38 pm »

According to Sky Sports we are one of only 4 league two clubs to say we definitely wouldn't be signing him....along with Luton, Hartlepool and York. Most 'declined to comment'
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