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Ched Evans

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HallamCobbler
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« Reply #60 on: January 06, 2015, 15:37:58 pm »

It's the fact he still doesn't believe he's done anything wrong, and yet he's a convicted rapist.

How he can be out on good behaviour is beyond me, since he believes his behaviour before prison was acceptable he clearly hasn't progressed to a point where he should be allowed out.

All that would change if his appeal is upheld, but until then he is a rapist who shows no remorse for his actions and thats the issue any employer will/should have.
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« Reply #61 on: January 06, 2015, 15:42:28 pm »



I wouldn't want him at my club and it doesn't appear he has learnt much from the whole ordeal other than not to cheat on his girlfriend.  Whether you like it or not footballers are role models to people especially youngsters.  

Thank you for this bit Hammer.
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HallamCobbler
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« Reply #62 on: January 06, 2015, 15:46:08 pm »

His girlfriends an idiot as well.
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« Reply #63 on: January 06, 2015, 15:49:24 pm »

His girlfriends an idiot as well.
Why?
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« Reply #64 on: January 06, 2015, 15:49:42 pm »

His girlfriends an idiot as well.

Idiot may be a bit harsh. She's just trying to cling on to the reality that she thought she had rather than the one she really has.....which we all do at times.
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HallamCobbler
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« Reply #65 on: January 06, 2015, 15:57:22 pm »

She's brought so much publicity to this by going on interviews, creating a website that basically condemns the victim and numerous radio interviews that she made it perfectly clear that he doesn't have any remorse.
If she'd of said nothing and brought this all up in a formal matter or appeal instead of making it such a huge issue the media coverage, and therefore public opinion may not have been so high that Ched could of got a club at a lower league without as much uproar.

Also, the fact she's clinging onto a man who clearly had no respect for her. And I can't believe this is the first time him and his mate have done something like this. He's just pissed off he got caught. But hey, thats just my opinion.
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« Reply #66 on: January 06, 2015, 16:05:17 pm »

She's brought so much publicity to this by going on interviews, creating a website that basically condemns the victim and numerous radio interviews that she made it perfectly clear that he doesn't have any remorse.
If she'd of said nothing and brought this all up in a formal matter or appeal instead of making it such a huge issue the media coverage, and therefore public opinion may not have been so high that Ched could of got a club at a lower league without as much uproar.

Also, the fact she's clinging onto a man who clearly had no respect for her. And I can't believe this is the first time him and his mate have done something like this. He's just ****ed off he got caught. But hey, thats just my opinion.

difficult one that Hallam, women can be so forcefully loyal - Boudicca, QE1, Livia, Calpurnia, Mrs Murray etc
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HallamCobbler
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« Reply #67 on: January 06, 2015, 17:02:55 pm »

difficult one that Hallam, women can be so forcefully loyal - Boudicca, QE1, Livia, Calpurnia, Mrs Murray etc

I guess your right. It's not her fault and she deals in her own way.

I can't see the situation changing unless he accepts responsibility for his actions or wins appeal  I certainly wouldn't welcome him here as it stands.
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Air-Dan
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« Reply #68 on: January 06, 2015, 17:53:58 pm »

"Northampton Town: We haven't been offered the opportunity to sign or give a trial to Ched Evans. It is not something the club have considered."

Source BBC - http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/30698618
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John
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« Reply #69 on: January 06, 2015, 19:14:48 pm »

I'm sorry Hallam but if he honestly believes he is innocent and she was a willing partner, why would he show any remorse? In his eyes, he's just done 30 months in prison for a crime he didn't commit, I bet he tells he's he victim here.

Also anybody who believes there are no, nor has there ever been an innocent man in prison is an idiot. Think about it, would we even have the term miscarriage of justice.
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« Reply #70 on: January 06, 2015, 19:55:37 pm »

Whether you meant to make or joke or not you clearly have made it one which is a shame.

What do you want it redefined to? Perhaps it's not the definition that's the problem it's your acceptance or understanding of the current one that needs to change?

The problem is we focus on this one case but ignore the thousands that don't even get to court or or are found not guilty through a lack of evidence.  From my experience the general public have a very unrealistic perception of how easy it is to a) even get to court and then b) obtain successful convictions for matters as complex and difficult as this.  As I said previously you have to be proven guilty beyond reasonable doubt.  Think about what that means.  The prosecution have to prove a rape has taken place.  If it comes down to simply word against word think how difficult that is to prove.

I was being ironic. I made that point pretty strongly at the start of the 2nd paragraph.

You and many others have glazed over the point I was making (and indeed Marvo).

IF she cannot remember how she ended up there let alone remember giving consent then how could the bloke be expected (whilst drunk) to know that at the time?

It's very grey area. Which is why 'rape' should be Defined for the masses. Make it clear that if as a bloke you have sex with a drunken woman over a certain level of influence and it's then clear. At the moment cases like this (and others that do not get to court) are a complete lottery.

Trust in the law is all well and good but if the law needs correcting then it should be. And in the case of drunken sex romps it clearly needs to be.
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HallamCobbler
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« Reply #71 on: January 06, 2015, 20:06:43 pm »

I'm sorry Hallam but if he honestly believes he is innocent and she was a willing partner, why would he show any remorse? In his eyes, he's just done 30 months in prison for a crime he didn't commit, I bet he tells he's he victim here.

Also anybody who believes there are no, nor has there ever been an innocent man in prison is an idiot. Think about it, would we even have the term miscarriage of justice.

Our justice system says he's a rapist. That's all I can go on. Why would I believe his story overy any other convicted criminal. If he wins his appeal then great for him and he would be welcome at most clubs. Until then he is a convicted rapist who doesn't see what he's done is wrong
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« Reply #72 on: January 06, 2015, 20:11:15 pm »

Well put.
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« Reply #73 on: January 06, 2015, 21:02:14 pm »

I might be a bit old fashioned but this thread is nothing whatsoever to do with the Cobblers imo.
Begs the question as to why it is in Cobblers Corner ?
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« Reply #74 on: January 06, 2015, 23:55:46 pm »

I was being ironic. I made that point pretty strongly at the start of the 2nd paragraph.

You and many others have glazed over the point I was making (and indeed Marvo).

IF she cannot remember how she ended up there let alone remember giving consent then how could the bloke be expected (whilst drunk) to know that at the time?

It's very grey area. Which is why 'rape' should be Defined for the masses. Make it clear that if as a bloke you have sex with a drunken woman over a certain level of influence and it's then clear. At the moment cases like this (and others that do not get to court) are a complete lottery.

Trust in the law is all well and good but if the law needs correcting then it should be. And in the case of drunken sex romps it clearly needs to be.

The bloke being too drunk themselves to know how drunk the women is doesn't absolve him from responsibility.  Sorry officer I was so p1ssed I didn't realise I was incapable of driving.  It's ridiculous.  You have a personal responsibility legally for your own actions drunk or otherwise.

Setting a limit.  Well far better more qualified people than you or I have considered that very idea and came to the conclusion it's impossible.  How do you set a limit? Is that limit different for various people?  Why should individuals not have the choice to have sex when drunk? How do you check if someone is under the limit before you have sex?  It's again so ridiculous when you try to get specific it becomes impossible which is why we have what is there is currently where evidence is gathered and if compelling enough is tested in a court of law.

Let's think about the Evans case.  Under your new limit law he would then be guilty as the woman was proven to be heavily under the influence of alcohol.

The facts of the Evans case are that he went to a hotel room with the full knowledge that his mate had took a woman back there.  He let himself into the room with a key he shouldn't really have had.  He watched his mate having sex with a woman then had sex with her as well despite her clearly being heavily under the influence of alcohol.  He then left the hotel via a fire exit and both of them left the woman in the hotel room. Now irrespective what you think of that woman and her motivations what a highly risky situation for any man to put themselves in.  He may well believe or has convinced himself he did nothing wrong other than cheat on his long term partner but that in itself is part of his current problem.
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« Reply #75 on: January 07, 2015, 03:02:45 am »

The law says he committed rape. He says he didn't. Even if he's proved correct at appeal his actions that night were still reprehensible - HOWEVER - are we REALLY saying that a man who currently stands convicted of a crime but has served the punishment that the law has demanded should now be prevented from following his lawful trade? What hope is there for rehabilitation and fairness if the operation of an accepted legal system is to be distorted by the vagaries of an often ill-inforned and prejudiced wave of social media?
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« Reply #76 on: January 07, 2015, 05:21:59 am »

The bloke being too drunk themselves to know how drunk the women is doesn't absolve him from responsibility.  Sorry officer I was so p1ssed I didn't realise I was incapable of driving.  It's ridiculous.  You have a personal responsibility legally for your own actions drunk or otherwise.

Setting a limit.  Well far better more qualified people than you or I have considered that very idea and came to the conclusion it's impossible.  How do you set a limit? Is that limit different for various people?  Why should individuals not have the choice to have sex when drunk? How do you check if someone is under the limit before you have sex?  It's again so ridiculous when you try to get specific it becomes impossible which is why we have what is there is currently where evidence is gathered and if compelling enough is tested in a court of law.

Let's think about the Evans case.  Under your new limit law he would then be guilty as the woman was proven to be heavily under the influence of alcohol.

The facts of the Evans case are that he went to a hotel room with the full knowledge that his mate had took a woman back there.  He let himself into the room with a key he shouldn't really have had.  He watched his mate having sex with a woman then had sex with her as well despite her clearly being heavily under the influence of alcohol.  He then left the hotel via a fire exit and both of them left the woman in the hotel room. Now irrespective what you think of that woman and her motivations what a highly risky situation for any man to put themselves in.  He may well believe or has convinced himself he did nothing wrong other than cheat on his long term partner but that in itself is part of his current problem.

I don't overly disagree with you. Other than you have failed to cover the point as to whether the female should take any of the responsibility. Are you saying that it's only the blokes judgement that is relevant?
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TbananaG
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« Reply #77 on: January 07, 2015, 06:27:11 am »

One point that is routinely overlooked in all of this is that Evans has not yet "served his time": he is out on licence which means he could be back inside at the first sign of trouble to serve the balance of his sentence. Not a great position for any prospective employer, all else aside.
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HallamCobbler
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« Reply #78 on: January 07, 2015, 07:09:12 am »

One point that is routinely overlooked in all of this is that Evans has not yet "served his time": he is out on licence which means he could be back inside at the first sign of trouble to serve the balance of his sentence. Not a great position for any prospective employer, all else aside.

True. Also rehabilitation doesn't mean going back into the job you had previously. There are plenty of jobs that will not hire convicted rapists (police, schools etc).

Being a footballer is not like most jobs. Just because you have better skills/ability than someone else doesn't mean you are entitled to the job.

Popularity, market value, team morale and public image are all huge aspects to consider.

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« Reply #79 on: January 07, 2015, 07:31:32 am »

The law says he committed rape. He says he didn't. Even if he's proved correct at appeal his actions that night were still reprehensible - HOWEVER - are we REALLY saying that a man who currently stands convicted of a crime but has served the punishment that the law has demanded should now be prevented from following his lawful trade? What hope is there for rehabilitation and fairness if the operation of an accepted legal system is to be distorted by the vagaries of an often ill-inforned and prejudiced wave of social media?

But this is a fundamental issue with our criminal justice system: completing a sentence means that you then move to day one of the rest of your life as a convicted criminal when you come out, it doesn't mean that you are in some way entitled to have your life back exactly as it was before, because you have "paid the price" for your crime.

Of course, this always has much less impact on the wealthy, powerful, already privileged, or even on those who have profited from their ill-gotten gains....who are much more likely to land on their feet. For the majority of offenders, it can be close to impossible to gain acceptance from a prospective employer, which narrows your options down and leads almost inevitably to routine re-offending. I can't see that social media has too much of a key role to play in this.

I'm not saying that Evans would be driven to re-offending, but a starting point for rehabilitation will always have to be some sense of contrition or remorse and a commitment to living your life differently in the future: Evans has shown no signs of anything other than wanting to portray himself as the victim in this scenario. At the risk of sounding like a grumpy old git, I do see this as kind of symptomatic of contemporary society - the disbelief that actions can have serious negative consequences and there won't always be somebody there to make everything alright whatever you do.

As you say, it appears that his actions that night were reprehensible and sordid if not criminal so, even if he is cleared on review of the conviction, you can imagine the scenes and chanting from opposition fans for ever more - do you really want to have to explain that to your children?

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