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Wilder vs Page, and another discussion - Fitness ?

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chapperscobb
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« on: January 03, 2017, 18:27:52 pm »

If you look at Wilders first full season in charge, ie. 2014/15 and his first 25 games, and compare to Pages, you have :-

Wilder.
P:25, Won:7, Drawn:4, Lost:14, Pts = 25

Page.
P:25, Won:8,Drawn:6, Lost:11, Pts = 30

We didnt sack Wilder, and look what happened.

re: Fitness.  The clear problem for me, currently, is the midfield. Does anyone not think its possibly a fitness issue ?  They were so deep for all of the 2nd half. Page played the same time as he did at Sheff Utd (a tough game, where we were chasing shadows for large parts of the game). Are some of the players fit enough ?
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« Reply #1 on: January 03, 2017, 18:31:37 pm »

Bore off which ever alta ego you are.
There are already 6 threads on this topic.
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« Reply #2 on: January 03, 2017, 18:54:54 pm »

If you look at Wilders first full season in charge, ie. 2014/15 and his first 25 games, and compare to Pages, you have :-

Wilder.
P:25, Won:7, Drawn:4, Lost:14, Pts = 25

Page.
P:25, Won:8,Drawn:6, Lost:11, Pts = 30

We didnt sack Wilder, and look what happened.

re: Fitness.  The clear problem for me, currently, is the midfield. Does anyone not think its possibly a fitness issue ?  They were so deep for all of the 2nd half. Page played the same time as he did at Sheff Utd (a tough game, where we were chasing shadows for large parts of the game). Are some of the players fit enough ?
Wilder took over a crap team, Page took over the best League 2 team for a decade.
I do agree with you about the problems stem from the midfield, it was obvious at Sheffield that 4 or 5 players were completely shattered after about 70 minutes, 3 of them pushing into their mid 30's, so he plays EXACTLY the same team 48 hours later and, surprise suprise, the same players are knackered again. Letting in so many late goals points, 100% to a fitness problem and young players, like McCourt, being so obviously out of shape confirms this.
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« Reply #3 on: January 03, 2017, 20:01:31 pm »

Wilder took over a crap team, Page took over the best League 2 team for a decade.
I do agree with you about the problems stem from the midfield, it was obvious at Sheffield that 4 or 5 players were completely shattered after about 70 minutes, 3 of them pushing into their mid 30's, so he plays EXACTLY the same team 48 hours later and, surprise suprise, the same players are knackered again. Letting in so many late goals points, 100% to a fitness problem and young players, like McCourt, being so obviously out of shape confirms this.

Page has hinted a few times this season that he would make changes......and then made none!

This was from the Chron after Sheffield and before Bradford.....http://www.northamptonchron.co.uk/sport/football/cobblers/new-signings-in-line-to-feature-as-page-hints-at-changes-for-bantams-visit-1-7754524

What happened?? Nothing, the same starting 11 and the same bench apart from new boy Wylde replacing the departing Gorre.

After the Boro home game and before the Bradford away game.......  http://www.northamptonchron.co.uk/sport/football/page-defends-team-selection-and-hints-at-changes-after-posh-defeat-1-7689286

What happened?? Smith dropped for Cornell, Diamond out due to injury in the Boro game and Nyatanga out due to injury in training. No unenforced changes apart from the keeper.

After the Stourbridge debacle and before the Rochdale home game..... http://www.northamptonchron.co.uk/sport/football/cobblers-boss-page-to-make-changes-for-rochdale-date-1-7737970

What happened?? Richards dropped for O'Toole who was returning from suspension....thats it.


Page tells himself and us that there is no issue with fitness.......is he right??  Actually defending for 45-60 minutes and being under the cosh must actually get tiring. Breaking out and pushing up once in a while would relieve some of the pressure and allow some of the players to get a breather! Revell and Richards coming back to join the defensive party isn't going to do them any favours is it?
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« Reply #4 on: January 03, 2017, 20:22:36 pm »

If you look at Wilders first full season in charge, ie. 2014/15 and his first 25 games, and compare to Pages, you have :-

Wilder.
P:25, Won:7, Drawn:4, Lost:14, Pts = 25

Page.
P:25, Won:8,Drawn:6, Lost:11, Pts = 30


Interesting stats but the circumstances maybe quite different. For a start Pages inherited side was probably better , but that is a moot point now.
Thanks for detailing them tho'.
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« Reply #5 on: January 03, 2017, 22:28:08 pm »

Other than statistically there is no comparison. And statistics fall woefully short in any comparison between Wilder and Page.

Wilder created one of the best Cobblers sides I have seen through the most tumultuous time our club has experienced. There is no comparison.
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« Reply #6 on: January 04, 2017, 06:23:38 am »

Other than statistically there is no comparison. And statistics fall woefully short in any comparison between Wilder and Page.

Wilder created one of the best Cobblers sides I have seen through the most tumultuous time our club has experienced. There is no comparison.

I would actually agree with you. But the comparison seems to form part of the argument for sacking page, with a lot of people who are in the "get rid camp".

How about we throw in the fact that Page is managing at a higher level than what Wilder was, with better teams and opposition, and a lot more of them with bigger budgets than us ? I would say mid table in league one is just about where we should be at the moment, and we are not far off that, lets face it.

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« Reply #7 on: January 04, 2017, 08:27:13 am »

I think it's absolutely the case that the player's general fitness is not as strong as it was last season, for whatever reason.
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« Reply #8 on: January 04, 2017, 09:04:11 am »

We haven't got legs in midfield that is clear for everyone to see, unless Boateng is going to supply it.

If I was manager I would play 4-2-3-1
                   
                  Smith
Anderson  Diamond  Nyatanga Buchanan
                O'Toole Boateng
Potter           Hoskins.             Wylde
                    Revell

This formation is on the current players we have, taking into account injuries. Matt Taylor needs a rest, clear for everyone to see. This would give you pace on the break and with Hoskins central some extra legs in midfield & on the attack.

*This is providing Anderson can play full back.
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« Reply #9 on: January 04, 2017, 09:17:10 am »

We haven't got legs in midfield that is clear for everyone to see, unless Boateng is going to supply it.

If I was manager I would play 4-2-3-1
                   
                  Smith
Anderson  Diamond  Nyatanga Buchanan
                O'Toole Boateng
Potter           Hoskins.             Wylde
                    Revell

This formation is on the current players we have, taking into account injuries. Matt Taylor needs a rest, clear for everyone to see. This would give you pace on the break and with Hoskins central some extra legs in midfield & on the attack.

This is what the majority of us have been crying out for the last few months, the trouble is page is one of those old school managers who likes plenty of 6ft plus players on the pitch for set pieces at both ends - I don't think he likes or trusts smaller nippy wingers
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« Reply #10 on: January 04, 2017, 09:47:58 am »

This is what the majority of us have been crying out for the last few months, the trouble is page is one of those old school managers who likes plenty of 6ft plus players on the pitch for set pieces at both ends - I don't think he likes or trusts smaller nippy wingers

strange how we all want 4-2-3-1 based on last seasons success, when from the turn of the year we played pretty much 4-4-2 with 2 of richards, collins and marquis up tops.............

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« Reply #11 on: January 04, 2017, 11:54:01 am »

Page's approach to fitness seems to be to run the players into the ground. It is one way of doing things but not sure how it benefits oldies like Rico and Taylor and Anderson who's coming back from a broken leg.
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« Reply #12 on: January 04, 2017, 12:01:48 pm »

Under Wilder we were a lower league version of the way Klopp's Liverpool play - generally high up the pitch and pressing all the time.  To my eye Page sets out to defend deep from the off, especially away from home, and expects the slow midfield we have to cover an great deal of ground on the break.  It isn't working, that is clear for all to see but he persists game after game with the same tactics. If we had lost at Oxford I doubt that he would be here to pick the side against Bristol Rovers. He has to e very close to the exit door. 
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« Reply #13 on: January 04, 2017, 13:29:44 pm »

They only work on fitness in the mornings . as  Mr Harbin has to have a nap in the afternoon
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« Reply #14 on: January 04, 2017, 13:37:29 pm »

Stats can be manipulated to suit any argument or point being made.

My frustrations surrounding Page are purely and simply tactical ones. Our first half showings have been very decent throughout the season, especially factoring in the higher level of opposition.

Its what he says and do's half time onwards thats the problem! I cannot think of a single other manager who has made such strange changes consistently during the latter part of matches, ones that make zero sense at the time and still no sense days later.

Why can't the people interviewing ask him questions like 'why did you make a sub in the 2nd minute of 3 minutes added on when we were losing?' or why did you take of JJ O'Toole and replace him with a like for like player? These are really basic questions that need answering. Id love to know his thoughts on these matters. But everybody with access to him fails to ask him what they are!
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« Reply #15 on: January 04, 2017, 13:42:11 pm »

When he was asked about taking Byrom off at half time against Posh he then came out and used the 'yellow card' excuse. They should have asked why he maintained the same pathetic formation.
So whilst I agree the lack of valid questions asked of Page is frustrating, he is on a hiding to nothing now as I'm not sure I'd believe what he said now anyway.
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« Reply #16 on: January 04, 2017, 14:09:24 pm »

I would actually agree with you. But the comparison seems to form part of the argument for sacking page, with a lot of people who are in the "get rid camp".

How about we throw in the fact that Page is managing at a higher level than what Wilder was, with better teams and opposition, and a lot more of them with bigger budgets than us ? I would say mid table in league one is just about where we should be at the moment, and we are not far off that, lets face it.



Thanks, Rob. We'll take your opinions on board.
Seriously though, even though it ain't pretty to watch, we are usually more than capable of matching the opposition from the off. The major problems tend to arise when our opponents make a change. Our management team then seem incapable of negating whatever tactical switch has been pulled on them. Seriously, as much as I despise the negative way he sets us up to play, it is actually Page's game management which will see us in a relegation battle.
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« Reply #17 on: January 04, 2017, 16:55:37 pm »

I think it's absolutely the case that the player's general fitness is not as strong as it was last season, for whatever reason.
Certainly in terms of mental fitness we are weaker, if not physically.
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« Reply #18 on: January 04, 2017, 17:33:06 pm »

We haven't got legs in midfield that is clear for everyone to see, unless Boateng is going to supply it.

If I was manager I would play 4-2-3-1
                   
                  Smith
Anderson  Diamond  Nyatanga Buchanan
                O'Toole Boateng
Potter           Hoskins.             Wylde
                    Revell

This formation is on the current players we have, taking into account injuries. Matt Taylor needs a rest, clear for everyone to see. This would give you pace on the break and with Hoskins central some extra legs in midfield & on the attack.

*This is providing Anderson can play full back.

A right back who can't tackle , great !!!!
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« Reply #19 on: January 04, 2017, 17:44:52 pm »

A right back who can't tackle , great !!!!

Er......I said from the players available and IF Anderson can play full back, that others on here have suggested that he can. Try reading all not just some mate! 
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