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Time for changes before January

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Author Topic: Time for changes before January  (Read 4003 times)
cj
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« Reply #60 on: December 13, 2017, 13:18:42 pm »

Wilder only scraped us out of the conference in the last hour of the final match of the season when he inherited a poor squad. And that was with the benefit of bringing in some of his own players, in a much easier league.

Given time to bring in his squad, he took us halfway up the league, and then up as champions.
Fair enough if those are your thoughts.
Wilder took over on 27/1/14, four days before the end of the transfer window. At the time we had collected just 22 points from 26 games and we finished the season on 53points.
So 31 points from the final 20 games or 1.55 per game, which over that season as a whole would have seen us just scrape the bottom play-off place.

We only narrowly avoided the conference largely because we were so crap before Wilder!

For balance, the most noteworthy players he got in were Sinclair and Ravenhill. (I thought Ricky did a job that season).

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« Reply #61 on: December 13, 2017, 13:30:28 pm »



its not just pace on its own we lack, it is the speed in which we can turn defence in to attack.  If it was just pure pace we actually have 3 extremely fast players in the squad in Long, Hanley and Smith.  Powell is quite fast, its just the winger part of him, beat a man and get the ball in the box we are lacking when he isn't there.

Hoskins is not fast.  He just attempts more sprints than others in a game, but he isn't particularly quick.
Do you know this for certain or are you summizing from you own observstions?
Genuine question.

And if we need to forget about Wilder, we certainly need to forget any Alex Ferguson linked suggestions!
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« Reply #62 on: December 13, 2017, 13:46:04 pm »

Changing the manager probably isnít going to help. Personally I am fed up with the change the manager mantra. Who are we going to get thatís better? Wilder aside can anyone name a good manager that this club has had in the last 30 years. Carr? Blackpool and Maidstone supporters might have a different view about that? What about Calderwood? Not according to the Forest fans I know. You get the point? The truth is that success or failure at this or indeed most levels requires a lot more than a good manager. Players are often at this level because they suffer with severe fluctuations in form, have the wrong mental attitude, or are injury prone. You often end up with third or fourth choice signings and any decent players you do get are often tempted away as we know all too well. The truth is that you are to some degree in the lap of the gods and need the luck of the devil and the kiss of an angel to succeed. You take a punt on some players and sometimes it comes off, but often not. Theyíre free or on loan for a reason, Ricky Holmes types are the exception Iím afraid. Most of the managers we have had here were quite capable of doing the job, they just didnít get the rub of the green or more precisely the players on a good year. Perhaps we could try a different tactic and have a bit of patience and continuity? Iíve said this before and it didnít go very well, but since we are on the third bloke since Wilder having spent a fortune I thought Iíd have another crack at it. It might be time to take a different approach, the current one donít seem to be working out too well?
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« Reply #63 on: December 13, 2017, 13:50:06 pm »

For balance, the most noteworthy players he got in were Sinclair and Ravenhill. (I thought Ricky did a job that season).

Agree, he identified we had a weakness in central midfield and brought in Ravenhill. I strongly believe he also saw how inept we were at fullback and bringing in Robertson and McSweeney was also instrumental.

Hopefully with 2 wingers instead of fullbacks coming in January we can see a similar improvement on the pitch.
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« Reply #64 on: December 13, 2017, 13:57:33 pm »

Have just read the whole thread from start to finish and thought i'd chip in with some of my own thoughts, opinions and answers

No way are we playing worse than we were under JED.

Main difference for me between the two, is that JFH seems to have an idea of what he wants and gives some clear instructions to his team (albeit they aren't always followed). JED seemed to have no ideas and just moaned when people made mistakes but there is no clear guidance and it was just lazy thoughtless football.

Whilst I know Revell is the not the saviour, without him up front i think we lose so much.  His energy, closing down and defending from the front. Holding up the ball and winning a lot in the air. He was an out ball when we had nothing on.  I appreciate when he was up top on his own, much of it was vain, but for the short spell he played with Long it worked. Its no coincidence in my mind. Ill agree that long term we need better strikers than him, but of what we have at the club he would always play for me.

its not just pace on its own we lack, it is the speed in which we can turn defence in to attack.  If it was just pure pace we actually have 3 extremely fast players in the squad in Long, Hanley and Smith.  Powell is quite fast, its just the winger part of him, beat a man and get the ball in the box we are lacking when he isn't there.

Hoskins is not fast.  He just attempts more sprints than others in a game, but he isn't particularly quick.

Someone said ' how have we ended up with only one winger in the squad? ' the answer is easy.  JED was fixed on a 5-3-2  they wouldn't of featured in his plans.

Will JFH succeed, I have no idea. I think i can see what he is trying to achieve and a lot of the players don't fit his style. that is different from saying they aren't good enough for us.  Yes i would of expected more to date from the squad, but i think he deserves the chance to manipulate the quad to be his own and see if it works. JED got that and it absolutely didn't, in fact it got worse with his own players than it did with Pages.

Points made about Gorre are very good, would have him back in the club in a heart beat, but you still need the rest of the team to work to that style.


And the nonsense of ' where would be if Wilder was running this squad'  get over it, he has gone. so has Holmes.


You must be watching something totally different to me. To me the football is no better then it was under JED, to me it looks like there is very little idea or plan (the constant teams changes week in week out tells you he has no clue what his best 11 is).

As for Revell winning stuff in the air - I certainly have not seen it! the ball is pumped long and it just comes back again.
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« Reply #65 on: December 13, 2017, 14:13:47 pm »


Someone said ' how have we ended up with only one winger in the squad? ' the answer is easy.  JED was fixed on a 5-3-2  they wouldn't of featured in his plans.


JED also said that our biggest problem the season before was that we were too one dimensional. He then built a huge squad, fixed on playing only one system.

A system that required fullbacks, which we also didn't have. He played Powell there first game of the season and we could all see just how much Buchs was struggling in that role.
A system that used only 3 midfielders and yet the squad is full of them.

To me there was absolutely no structure, no cohesion and no thought given to the recruitment process in terms of balancing the squad. Not only in terms of positions and systems, but also in terms of pace vs metal, left vs right footers.

You can tell people they need to forget about Wilder all you want to. The fact is, recruitment under him considered all of the points above and recruitment since he left, has not. Its not even a wilder 'thing' is just common sense.




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« Reply #66 on: December 13, 2017, 14:22:09 pm »

Agree, he identified we had a weakness in central midfield and brought in Ravenhill. I strongly believe he also saw how inept we were at fullback and bringing in Robertson and McSweeney was also instrumental.

Hopefully with 2 wingers instead of fullbacks coming in January we can see a similar improvement on the pitch.
I think you can add Zander Diamond, joining on loan in Feb for the rest of that season. He was a great signing by Wilder allowed I guess by the old loan system. 
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« Reply #67 on: December 13, 2017, 14:25:48 pm »

JED also said that our biggest problem the season before was that we were too one dimensional. He then built a huge squad, fixed on playing only one system.

A system that required fullbacks, which we also didn't have. He played Powell there first game of the season and we could all see just how much Buchs was struggling in that role.
A system that used only 3 midfielders and yet the squad is full of them.

To me there was absolutely no structure, no cohesion and no thought given to the recruitment process in terms of balancing the squad. Not only in terms of positions and systems, but also in terms of pace vs metal, left vs right footers.

You can tell people they need to forget about Wilder all you want to. The fact is, recruitment under him considered all of the points above and recruitment since he left, has not. Its not even a wilder 'thing' is just common sense.





Agreed, Wilder had balance all over the pitch. How Melville is still nicking a living is totally beyond me!
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« Reply #68 on: December 13, 2017, 14:38:19 pm »

If it was just pure pace we actually have 3 extremely fast players in the squad in Long, Hanley and Smith.

i cannot believe that anyone thinks this is the case.

i would say these players are mobile at best, but to claim they have pace / are extremely fast is ridiculous.

they might look quicker than most of our squad, but that isn't difficult, as the rest of them are pretty sluggish.
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« Reply #69 on: December 13, 2017, 14:47:36 pm »

Do you know this for certain or are you summizing from you own observstions?
Genuine question.

And if we need to forget about Wilder, we certainly need to forget any Alex Ferguson linked suggestions!

I'm not sure anyone on this forum knows anything for certain unless they are the players or coaching staff posting under other names.

It is known that those 3 are the fastest players in the squad, they were the top 3 in speed testing and other players have picked them out too.  I probably went overboard with the use of the word extremely.

Hoskins - is purely my own observation
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« Reply #70 on: December 13, 2017, 14:52:05 pm »

I think you can add Zander Diamond, joining on loan in Feb for the rest of that season. He was a great signing by Wilder allowed allowed I guess by the old loan system. 

Completely forgot it was Wilder's early stint that brought in Diamond. In hindsight, he was probably the most instrumental of the lot!
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« Reply #71 on: December 13, 2017, 14:52:41 pm »


You must be watching something totally different to me. To me the football is no better then it was under JED, to me it looks like there is very little idea or plan (the constant teams changes week in week out tells you he has no clue what his best 11 is).

As for Revell winning stuff in the air - I certainly have not seen it! the ball is pumped long and it just comes back again.

Having no clue what your best team is doesn't mean its better or worse.  And to be clear I'm not saying its good, i just don't think it is as bad. It is an opinion.
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« Reply #72 on: December 13, 2017, 14:56:37 pm »

i cannot believe that anyone thinks this is the case.

i would say these players are mobile at best, but to claim they have pace / are extremely fast is ridiculous.

they might look quicker than most of our squad, but that isn't difficult, as the rest of them are pretty sluggish.


I hold my hands up and take back the word 'extremely' from my quote.  But they are all quick players.  Are they any good? probably not good enough. Have we utilised it? apart from the Donny game, absolutely not!
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« Reply #73 on: December 13, 2017, 15:02:38 pm »

One of the things Iím going to be most interested to see on Saturday is if grimes is still going to be played as a deep lying ďquarterbackĒ as I feel that this has been one of the major weaknesses over the last few weeks/months. With him playing almost as a third centre back at times it is massively reducing his effectiveness. Iíll also be interested to see if it going to be Barnett or Pierre and Iíll be praying that Ingram, Powell and jj pass their fitness tests.
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« Reply #74 on: December 13, 2017, 16:08:18 pm »

I'm not sure anyone on this forum knows anything for certain unless they are the players or coaching staff posting under other names.

It is known that those 3 are the fastest players in the squad, they were the top 3 in speed testing and other players have picked them out too.  I probably went overboard with the use of the word extremely.

Hoskins - is purely my own observation
Ok, well if they are our quickest three I'm surprised because I thought Hoskins would be one of them. Much will depend over what distances they are timed.
I had a background in track and field, the sprints and jumps in particular, and I'd like to think i still have a better eye than most for for judging, but I'll always defer to a stopwatch.
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« Reply #75 on: December 13, 2017, 16:19:45 pm »

One of the things Iím going to be most interested to see on Saturday is if grimes is still going to be played as a deep lying ďquarterbackĒ as I feel that this has been one of the major weaknesses over the last few weeks/months. With him playing almost as a third centre back at times it is massively reducing his effectiveness. Iíll also be interested to see if it going to be Barnett or Pierre and Iíll be praying that Ingram, Powell and jj pass their fitness tests.
What about Grimes on the left letting Crooks come in the middle, after all he is left footed and must be due a go in that slot!
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« Reply #76 on: December 13, 2017, 16:32:10 pm »

Pace in a squad is always a useful option to have as an out and ideally the more quicker players the better.

I think our build up play is sooo slow it is so easy for opposing sides to regroup and effectively nullify our limited attacking threat.

I like Moloney as a player when fully fit and flying forward. This rarely happens now. I'll be relieved when Phillips challenges his place.

As mentioned in the little I've seen of Smith and Hanley, are they going to offer less than current starters? Pace unsettles defences even if it said pace is relative compared to current slowness.

If Kasim can't even threaten the bench then move him on if he is that far from starting.

O'Toole worked well as the deep lying midfielder under Wilder.

Ultimately are there four teams worse than us in this division? Not sure I can answer that.
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I think someone should just take this city of Peterborough and just... just flush it down the f***in' toilet
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« Reply #77 on: December 13, 2017, 16:45:05 pm »

Bizarre really, when JFH came in he know we had no proper out and out wingers (bar Powell) but in his first game v Donny he address this by throwing the George Smith curveball no one saw coming....it worked....we looked pretty well balanced and followed this up with another decent win v Pompey a few days later...

Even Hanley looked decent against MK away (very lightweight and not the long term answer)

Most of us thought, we could possibly limp through til January but both Smith & Hanley have rarely featured since...

Team continually changing game by game with player randomly bombed out the squad altogether only to reappear several games later...

Also, the whole Powell should be back next game - repeat x 10 is all very bizarre

I assume Ingram being back for Saturday should read "no idea when he will be back"  Roll Eyes

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« Reply #78 on: December 13, 2017, 17:44:46 pm »

Ok, well if they are our quickest three I'm surprised because I thought Hoskins would be one of them. Much will depend over what distances they are timed.
I had a background in track and field, the sprints and jumps in particular, and I'd like to think i still have a better eye than most for for judging, but I'll always defer to a stopwatch.

Running with the ball is key too, Hoskins does have that.  I don't think i've ever seen Hanley or Long run with the ball at feet.

And Hoskins may well of been injured at that time, he usually is  Wink
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« Reply #79 on: December 13, 2017, 18:03:43 pm »

 
Do you know this for certain or are you summizing from you own observstions?
Genuine question.

And if we need to forget about Wilder, we certainly need to forget any Alex Ferguson linked suggestions!

 Quintonside not too far off in his assessment of our speed merchants. I can remember Hoskins out running many a full back; the last game being Gillingham away a few weeks ago! Stanley M was not overall quick but his secret was a 25/50yd sprint! Tommy Robson was quick but Bowen often said in the wrong direction. Harry Walden/Barry Lines were not particularly quick either. I believe itís the first 30yds which count. Bayo when he pumped up sufficient steam was a fearsome sight with players mostly getting out the way. Overall speed not essential a football brain is.
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