JIMMY OUT!

[guest47]

Take everyone of our poor managers and look at their credentials prior to joining us. Everyone of them had something to indicate they could be a success and/or went on to be successful elsewhere. (I believe even Fenwick went on to be a legend in the Caribbean, tenuous as that is)
Think about it logically, is it that they become inexplicably tactically inept and incompetent when they join us, or is there far more to it than that? If you look at JED, the amount of time it took for him to sign players pre-season indicated to me that many of this squad may not have been first, second or even third choice. If this is the case he then has to make do with a makeshift squad that is a considerable way from the ideal. Then someone like Jimmy comes in and has one January transfer window to rectify the whole mess. Chopping and changing players akin to putting a ribbon around a dog turd he fails to get the second rate outfit to perform and the whole situation implodes.
I’m not suggesting JFH was the right bloke or that he didn’t make mistakes but the idea that success is solely linked to the right manager is just ludicrous. You might identify 3 players as your midfield general to lead the side on the pitch and not land any of them. We are not PSG or Barcelona with the pick of who we want. What I am saying is that success at this level has to do with fortune as much as anything? Timing and availability may result in not getting the exact players you want. Injury or interest from other clubs may prevent this and you end up with a squad a long way from the one you envisaged or wanted. Then even your best players may get injured or suspended (as JJ did against Shrewsbury). Compounding this, also players are at this level often because they may have problems with professional attitude, injuries or discipline?
Don’t get me wrong, as the cliche says this is a results driven business and how you perform on the pitch is everything. I believe Jimmys first priority was rightly to make us hard to beat and develop from there? He perhaps envisaged getting us to the end of the season, surviving and then completely rebuilding in the summer. It would make sense as the squad is clearly short in a number of areas? The bloke had to go, because he took the job and failed to consistently bring out the best in any team he put out anywhere near often enough. In fact, I felt he had little confidence in most of the players hence the constant tinkering and prevaricating?
All I am saying is don’t be too hard on the bloke as failure in this game isn’t always down to lack of ability. Everyone no matter how good will make mistakes and failure may be down to circumstance as much as anything. Whilst it was right to change the last 3 managers when we did, on another occasion they may well have succeeded? Don’t be surprised if the next bloke who ever he is fails as well, and when he does it might not be entirely his fault? No matter how much ability you have, success at this level to some extent is a bit of a lottery. I’m getting a horrible feeling I’ve said the wrong thing again,  but thought I would throw this out there?

This may be the kiss of death for your argument on here but I completely agree.
I haven’t checked but I believe the only times we’ve had success has been in the manager’s second season when he’s had a proper chance to develop his own squad. You can’t deny JFH inherited a mixed bunch of players with remaining contracts from the previous, short lived managers. The new man will also have to contend with the same problem and let’s hope he’s gets decent time to get a coherent squad together.

[Wolvo]

This may be the kiss of death for your argument on here but I completely agree.
I haven’t checked but I believe the only times we’ve had success has been in the manager’s second season when he’s had a proper chance to develop his own squad. You can’t deny JFH inherited a mixed bunch of players with remaining contracts from the previous, short lived managers. The new man will also have to contend with the same problem and let’s hope he’s gets decent time to get a coherent squad together.

It was Wilder's third season for us. Fans were calling for Wilder to be sacked in his first and second season due to us playing negative football and not relating to the fans in interviews. I think it's hard playing free flowing, attacking football that looks passionate to the fans when you're stuck at the bottom than a few fans understand. 'I'd rather lose 4-3 than 1-0' attitude will probably result in us losing 5-0.

If we find ourselves lower midtable in League Two by December, we'll have a '<insert manager's name> Out' thread.

[EssTeeFree]

While I think Wolvo, Melbourne and Alton raise some valid points, let us not pretend that the style of play under Jimmy was anything other than his preferred style. He was top of the League with Burton and still played safety first. QPR fans were spot on about Jimmy (boring, negative, strange erratic selections) as were Gillingham fans with JED (narrow, obsessed with central midfielders, one paced football etc.). I do agree it is a minefield though, all managers will attract negative comments from previous clubs fans.

On some of the other points raised around transfers. We'll never land all our first choice targets, hardly any club will. JED signed players at a decent rate last season, timing of recruitment wasn't vastly different to the title winning year. What I think complicated things was the Chinese money coming late and instead of continuing the fill places in the squad JED got excited and signed players who came into a our new price range in positions we had them. While the situation was not ideal it is still JEDs failing. He should have built the squad to be fully balanced and then enhanced with the extra money in January rather than getting himself excited. I appreciate hindsight is great.

Jimmy may have done better with a summer window, I usually think you should give a manager  3 windows to build his squad. The problem here is he brought in a lot of players in January and has hardly played a lot of them. Berto and Ariyibi have never started a game together on opposite wings, in fact I'm not sure we've played a minute with them both wide. Jimmy was backed but then didn't even back his own judgement, why would we want to trust him with another window. If he'd have carried out the surgery in Jan, played the players and we went down still he might have a claim that he did the best he could to fix the problems in the squad but it was a lost cause.

[Wolvo]

While I think Wolvo, Melbourne and Alton raise some valid points, let us not pretend that the style of play under Jimmy was anything other than his preferred style. He was top of the League with Burton and still played safety first.

I think this is where I don't envy KT's task in employing a new manager at all. Wilder was top of League Two with Oxford, and their fans were all telling us he plays negative, safety first football. So much luck and timing is involved for any manager to be seen as a success.

[EssTeeFree]

I think this is where I don't envy KT's task in employing a new manager at all. Wilder was top of League Two with Oxford, and their fans were all telling us he plays negative, safety first football. So much luck and timing is involved for any manager to be seen as a success.

Agree 100%. I remember when Page came in and he talked of preferring attacking football, width, being on the front foot and then did nothing of the sort. I'd imagine he said similar in interview.

I think this is where our scouting network comes in, they should be not only looking at players but also up-coming managers, especially in Non-League. What is their style of play at home, away, versus top teams, struggling teams etc. How do they deal with losing 2 or 3 on the spin, do they scrap it all and start again. Whether we have anything like the resources to do something like this I don't know. I'd like to think we have an ever evolving short list of managers / coaches as well as players. We should always be prepared for a manager leaving either through our choice or theirs.

[guest48]

I get what people are saying, but there is a saying that says "If you are organised, you have a chance" and I really think that's true in the lower leagues. But, under JFH, we were completely disorganised, players playing out of position, different formations game to game and players being frozen out.
   Just look at Shrewsbury, Paul Hurst came in and made them very organised and professional, diving and fouling when needed, but with pretty much the same players who were bottom of the league before he took over.
   

[guest2995]

I think we can expect Austin and Brady to allow the players to express themselves more than they have done . The feeling is that JFH strangled players .
They will only be able to exert a certain influence though because there is no time to radically change things .
Much of it will depend if the players are bothered or not because most will be away at the end of the season once we go down .
There’s not much any manager can do about that .

[everbrite]

I get what people are saying, but there is a saying that says "If you are organised, you have a chance" and I really think that's true in the lower leagues. But, under JFH, we were completely disorganised, players playing out of position, different formations game to game and players being frozen out.
   Just look at Shrewsbury, Paul Hurst came in and made them very organised and professional, diving and fouling when needed, but with pretty much the same players who were bottom of the league before he took over.
   

The team selection against Blackpool should be interesting.

[guest2235]

I think we can expect Austin and Brady to allow the players to express themselves more than they have done . The feeling is that JFH strangled players .
They will only be able to exert a certain influence though because there is no time to radically change things .
Much of it will depend if the players are bothered or not because most will be away at the end of the season once we go down .
There’s not much any manager can do about that .

Its a good point you make, so should DA just play the contracted players? I say this because a lot on here believe the loan players don't really care as its not their club.

[Mathius]

Some fans seem to think DA was marginalised by the arrival of John Pemberton. This wasn't the case. He's been heavily involved and certainly not on the fringes. The hope is that he will put his own stamp on things now he has this opportunity. What I will say is, both DA and JB are tough characters and won't take any nonsense. Maybe just what some of our players need.

[The Rauldinho]

Its a good point you make, so should DA just play the contracted players? I say this because a lot on here believe the loan players don't really care as its not their club.

It's a tough one.

Regan Poole for example, really seemed to put 100% in when he was playing. Berto I think as well, always looked like he cared but maybe had the wrong way of expressing it.

Long is our top scorer, but doesn't press as hard as some of the others. Is this just his playing style or he is not bothered? Grimes sometimes looks up for it, but others looks like he cannot wait to get away.

I think we should be trying to play our best eleven, there is still a mathematical chance we can stay up. For me, if relegation is confirmed before the final game, then we should be giving game time to those who will be with us next season and trying to blood some more youth players at the same time.

[guest2995]

Only those on the inside know if some of the loan players are truly up for it, or even some of the contracted players who might have release clauses .
It will be interesting to see which of Jimmy’s favourites gets dropped .
Grimes , Hoskins , Powell and Long are the obvious choices but maybe they just need more support or a different role .
I have a feeling the grafters will be drafted in , but we then lack creativity .
It’s a tough one but the bad eggs will be weeded out , if indeed there any .
Those that are calling for Lobjoit and Joe to be reinstalled need to think again . We will disappear without trace if we go down that road

[MCHammer]

Some of these points I have made before on here so I am merely repeating myself. It is right to say some of these points are made in highsight, but most of them have been made by others prior to JFH demise. I also don't like issuing abusive comments against any Manager or player. Its too easy behind cover of a keyboard. For me the benchmark was Peterborough and the decision to sack him was probably overdue.

I'm conflicted.  On the one hand great to see some opinions from you and tough to disagree with any of the points you listed.

On the other hand most if not all of the points you listed were ones I and others raised weeks ago.....strangely we then had to defend ourselves against Wolvo and yourself as Chris Wilder threads were dredged up saying look what happens when you give a manager time!!!!  Just how overdue was the sacking then?

[guest3114]

While I think Wolvo, Melbourne and Alton raise some valid points, let us not pretend that the style of play under Jimmy was anything other than his preferred style. He was top of the League with Burton and still played safety first. QPR fans were spot on about Jimmy (boring, negative, strange erratic selections) as were Gillingham fans with JED (narrow, obsessed with central midfielders, one paced football etc.). I do agree it is a minefield though, all managers will attract negative comments from previous clubs fans.

On some of the other points raised around transfers. We'll never land all our first choice targets, hardly any club will. JED signed players at a decent rate last season, timing of recruitment wasn't vastly different to the title winning year. What I think complicated things was the Chinese money coming late and instead of continuing the fill places in the squad JED got excited and signed players who came into a our new price range in positions we had them. While the situation was not ideal it is still JEDs failing. He should have built the squad to be fully balanced and then enhanced with the extra money in January rather than getting himself excited. I appreciate hindsight is great.

Jimmy may have done better with a summer window, I usually think you should give a manager  3 windows to build his squad. The problem here is he brought in a lot of players in January and has hardly played a lot of them. Berto and Ariyibi have never started a game together on opposite wings, in fact I'm not sure we've played a minute with them both wide. Jimmy was backed but then didn't even back his own judgement, why would we want to trust him with another window. If he'd have carried out the surgery in Jan, played the players and we went down still he might have a claim that he did the best he could to fix the problems in the squad but it was a lost cause.

Also valid points ETF, the last paragraph particularly so.

[MCHammer]

I find this whole "give the manager time" argument a strange one in the way it's being used by many.  Also this whole thing about luck.  Seems some people are willing to just stand by any manager as eventually in time they will get it right.  After all look what happened with Wilder!!!

So are some of you still saying JFH should not have been sacked and we should have given him more time?  Even if relegated?  What were the signs that in time he would get it right or was getting it right?  How wrong do you allow it to go or do you just stick with the 3 year contract?

Of course the principal of giving a manager time is the right one but there have to be short and medium term reviews of their performance to ensure they are on track to achieve the long term aims.  There has to be evidence that things are on track or if they aren't what is being done to bring it back on track.  It can't just be based on blind optimism that eventually given enough time any half competent manager will get it right.

All JFH had to achieve this season was to get the club in a safe mid to lower mid position and start to build a squad and implement a style of play/formation (even if it wasn't that expansive).  I reckon the vast majority of us would have accepted that as a small amount of progress.  With the players at his disposal and the ability to make signings in Jan I believe that would have been a fair expectation of any half competent manager.

As for luck....well that's just an easy excuse to trot out when things go pear shaped.  We all in life tend to remember the good luck/bad luck stories but rarely consider the events that led up to them.  I play poker now and again and could tell you hundreds of stories of how I played brilliantly and lost through bad luck.  There is probably a hundred stories of how I played badly, got lucky and won but I don't tend to remember them funnily enough!

[Wolvo]

I find this whole "give the manager time" argument a strange one in the way it's being used by many.  Also this whole thing about luck.  Seems some people are willing to just stand by any manager as eventually in time they will get it right.  After all look what happened with Wilder!!!

In hindsight, we'd probably have been better with keeping Page all along. We'll obviously never know the answer because it's purely theoretical now.

The reason Wilder is a good example is because fans wanted him sacked in his first and second season for the same reasons fans called Page, JED and JFH to be sacked.

[bri77]

In hindsight, we'd probably have been better with keeping Page all along. We'll obviously never know the answer because it's purely theoretical now.

The reason Wilder is a good example is because fans wanted him sacked in his first and second season for the same reasons fans called Page, JED and JFH to be sacked.

Who wanted him sacked in his first season? 

I don't remember calls for his sacking until the 12 defeats in 15 sequence. I aslo remember no calls for Broadhurst to be sacked but then Gray should have gone at the end of the season.

After 5 games in league one there were also alot of dissenting voices from the Sheff Utd fans. It doesn't really prove anything as each manager has to be judged on what they have done and more importantly where it looks like the team is going.

[defender]

        My Son SENT ME A TEXT, TELLING ME THAT JFH HAD BEEN SACKED, MY FIRST THOUGHT WAS ''I KNEW THERE WAS A GOD''

[Wolvo]

Who wanted him sacked in his first season? 

I don't remember calls for his sacking until the 12 defeats in 15 sequence. I aslo remember no calls for Broadhurst to be sacked but then Gray should have gone at the end of the season.

After 5 games in league one there were also alot of dissenting voices from the Sheff Utd fans. It doesn't really prove anything as each manager has to be judged on what they have done and more importantly where it looks like the team is going.

http://www.smfserver.com/forums/thehotelend/index.php?topic=9622.0

Just take a read.

[guest48]

Returning back from Posh on Monday I was talking to a fair few people on our coach. Everyone accepted that, under JFH, we were 100% down and the really telling point was that most people thought that we would struggle to stay up in League 2 if he was still in charge.
      He had decided that he was right in what he was doing, he said that in the after match interview, and it didn't matter that 98% of the fans could see that he wasn't doing it right, his arrogance and stubbornness cost him his job
      The thing that amazed me about JFH was that if he found something that worked, like the pressing performance against Shrewsbury, he would change it. If something didn't work, like Bunney at left back, he would stick with it !!