|
MCHammer
|
In hindsight, we'd probably have been better with keeping Page all along. We'll obviously never know the answer because it's purely theoretical now.
The reason Wilder is a good example is because fans wanted him sacked in his first and second season for the same reasons fans called Page, JED and JFH to be sacked.
So just to clarify a couple of things. You are saying that because we stuck with Wilder this proves if we stuck with other managers they would also have all been successful. Would you have stuck with JFH for the rest of this season and all of next season irrespective of relegation/staying up? If someone voices an opinion on a manager at an historical point in time and is subsequently proven wrong this means they are automatically wrong if they ever voice the same opinion about a subsequent manager? Irrespective of what evidence they use to support that opinion. |
|
|
|
|
|
MCHammer
|
Returning back from Posh on Monday I was talking to a fair few people on our coach. Everyone accepted that, under JFH, we were 100% down and the really telling point was that most people thought that we would struggle to stay up in League 2 if he was still in charge.
Yeah but most of them probably said the same about Wilder and look how that turned out.  |
|
|
|
|
|
Wolvo
|
Would you have stuck with JFH for the rest of this season and all of next season irrespective of relegation/staying up?
I'm certainly happy I don't have to hire/fire Cobblers managers, that's for certain! We'll never know how we would have competed next season, that is now impossible. But I use Wilder as a reference because it's close to home and relevant. Looking at other references, take Bristol City who are 7th in the Championship on the back of an exciting cup run. And then look at this: https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/another-banner-calling-sacking-bristol-19090 |
Pink Army!
|
|
|
|
MCHammer
|
I asked you 3 questions that were fairly straight forward for you to answer. You've quoted 1 ignored the others and failed to answer all 3! Have go at answering them and nailing your colours to the mast. As for your other comments all you are proving is that you are the master of hindsight. Just waiting for the Alex Ferguson reference so I can complete my football cliche bingo card. I mean seriously have a look at the form Bristol City were in at the time of that article. You think its abnormal that fans would be feeling that way? Credit to their chairman for sticking with him though as he's been proved right eventually. What was it that made him stick with him though? Would he have done so if they had gone down? What was the difference between him and other managers they didn't give so much time to. Do you see what I'm saying and how each individual case needs to be judged on it's own merits? That's why Wilder and his history holds no merit for me when considering JFH. Different times, different division, different owners, different players, different budget, different style of playing.....and so on. So I ask again. With all that you know now and without the benefit of knowing what would have happened would you have stuck with JFH for this season and next. If yes why? Is that based on the "Chris Wilder" theory that more time equals success or more than that? |
|
|
|
|
|
clarkeysntfc
|
Under Wilder, I don't ever remember a unanimous chorus of people expecting him to be removed at any point. When we went on the horrible run in his second season, things were getting uncomfortable but I don't believe there was a major push for his removal as we have had with JFH.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Wolvo
|
I asked you 3 questions that were fairly straight forward for you to answer. You've quoted 1 ignored the others and failed to answer all 3! Have go at answering them and nailing your colours to the mast.
As for your other comments all you are proving is that you are the master of hindsight. Just waiting for the Alex Ferguson reference so I can complete my football cliche bingo card.
I mean seriously have a look at the form Bristol City were in at the time of that article. You think its abnormal that fans would be feeling that way? Credit to their chairman for sticking with him though as he's been proved right eventually. What was it that made him stick with him though? Would he have done so if they had gone down? What was the difference between him and other managers they didn't give so much time to. Do you see what I'm saying and how each individual case needs to be judged on it's own merits? That's why Wilder and his history holds no merit for me when considering JFH. Different times, different division, different owners, different players, different budget, different style of playing.....and so on.
So I ask again.
With all that you know now and without the benefit of knowing what would have happened would you have stuck with JFH for this season and next.
If yes why? Is that based on the "Chris Wilder" theory that more time equals success or more than that?
I ignored the questions because you took what I said, ignored why I said it, and sensationalised it into a ridiculous statement. I always try to state the relevance and provide some kind of fact to support my point. To clarify, you only want to answer the last two sentences of this post? I'd stated earlier in this thread that I'd stick with JFH even if we fall into League Two. I feel he'd know exactly where the squad is and will be in the best position to take us forward. He isn't an idiot, and will hopefully have learned from his mistakes. I remember when Rico left us - he specifically stated some of Hasselbaink's training sessions where the best he'd had when he easily could have said absolutely nothing about the manager who moved him on. I really felt the problems were too deeply embedded here. And it isn't just the 'Chris Wilder Theory'. Someone else in this forum had stated other managers clearly go on to, or have previously been successful. So it isn't like we're hiring incompetent managers time and time again, it just very often does not work out for club and manager (and players for that matter). The club will stay where it is, the managers (and players) will move on to varying degrees of success in their career. On a seperate note, and more relevant to the 'next manager' thread - I firmly believe if we get relegated, the next manager will be in for an absolute beaut of a job and absolutely perfect timing to get someone like Tisdale in. In some respects, I think I'd prefer a League Two campaign to a League One campaign. The chances of us winning games greatly improve down there, we go from being a small fish to a big fish, and I personally couldn't care less how many ex-prem/big sides we get to play. |
Pink Army!
|
|
|
|
guest47
|
So just to clarify a couple of things.
You are saying that because we stuck with Wilder this proves if we stuck with other managers they would also have all been successful.
Would you have stuck with JFH for the rest of this season and all of next season irrespective of relegation/staying up?
If someone voices an opinion on a manager at an historical point in time and is subsequently proven wrong this means they are automatically wrong if they ever voice the same opinion about a subsequent manager? Irrespective of what evidence they use to support that opinion.
To stick my nose in: We don't know if we would have ben successful if we had stuck with Page or Edinburgh, we do know we haven't been successful by sacking them. There is an argument to say that JFH was lumbered with a ridiculously large squad of mediocre players thanks to these sackings and so was unable to fully form his own team. He tried to offload plenty of them over January with limited success considering the contracts they were currently enjoying and it was only the half decent players that managed to find other clubs. JFH was undeniably successful at Burton and his WDL record at QPR was 11 15 12, better than any manager since Warnock's first stint there in 2010. That includes Mark Hughes, Harry Redknapp and the current Ian Holloway. I fully appreciate it's gone badly for him here and the toxic atmosphere meant he had to go but that doesn't make him a bad manager and he'll get another job pretty quickly. My view was that he tried to form a decent squad for league one without taking into account the pitfalls of surviving this season with the ragtag of players he inherited in the squad. This was perfectly indicated by Buchsgate. We had a great professional for the club but was finding it rather a struggle in the higher league. JFH found a great long term replacement in Bunney and ironically was a more attacking option. Unfortunately the boo boys won this one and we had to endure Buchs struggling at the Charlton game. Revell and Rico were also problems, great strikers in their day and both popular but simply not scoring goals at he higher level. I honestly don't care who they appoint for the next manager. They've all done the same FA courses, learnt the same tactics and man management, got their badges and know their stuff. All I want is for whoever it is to be given the opportunity to get a squad together that's not a mishmash of previously abandoned projects. It's the only way we will get any sort of success at the club. |
|
|
|
|
|
everbrite
|
I asked you 3 questions that were fairly straight forward for you to answer. You've quoted 1 ignored the others and failed to answer all 3! Have go at answering them and nailing your colours to the mast.
As for your other comments all you are proving is that you are the master of hindsight. Just waiting for the Alex Ferguson reference so I can complete my football cliche bingo card.
I mean seriously have a look at the form Bristol City were in at the time of that article. You think its abnormal that fans would be feeling that way? Credit to their chairman for sticking with him though as he's been proved right eventually. What was it that made him stick with him though? Would he have done so if they had gone down? What was the difference between him and other managers they didn't give so much time to. Do you see what I'm saying and how each individual case needs to be judged on it's own merits? That's why Wilder and his history holds no merit for me when considering JFH. Different times, different division, different owners, different players, different budget, different style of playing.....and so on.
So I ask again.
With all that you know now and without the benefit of knowing what would have happened would you have stuck with JFH for this season and next.
If yes why? Is that based on the "Chris Wilder" theory that more time equals success or more than that?
The trouble with your way of debate is that you engineer your opponent into a corner leaving him no lateral movement; resulting in a statement. |
2020 Grand National S/S 3rd Place
|
|
|
|
BackOfTheNet
|
The trouble with your way of debate is that you engineer your opponent into a corner
leaving him no lateral movement; resulting in a statement.
So basically you aren't prepared to have a debate with someone who's better at debating than you are? |
The Hotelend Grand National* Sweepstake Champion 2020
|
|
|
|
bri77
|
Just had a read through that thread (to see if I was one moaning) Yes there were a couple of voices not impressed with Wilder at that point but there were several 'defending' him too. Nothing like the JFH situation at all. |
|
|
|
|
|
defender
|
You cannot compare JFH with wilder, It's just stupid.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
bri77
|
Bloody hell, he couldn't cope with our fans being ' critical ' what would he be like as a manager at Leeds  I'd be gobsmacked if it happened though. |
|
|
|
|
|
guest3114
|
Bloody hell, he couldn't cope with our fans being ' critical ' what would he be like as a manager at Leeds I'd be gobsmacked if it happened though. Being unkind, it could beat Cloughs infamous 46 days? |
|
|
|
|
|
Deepcut Cobbler
|
44..
|
“They shall grow not old as we that are left grow old:
Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning
We will remember them.” Laurence Binyon
The Hotelend Grand National Sweepstake Champion 2009
|
|
|
|
everbrite
|
I'm conflicted. On the one hand great to see some opinions from you and tough to disagree with any of the points you listed.
On the other hand most if not all of the points you listed were ones I and others raised weeks ago.....strangely we then had to defend ourselves against Wolvo and yourself as Chris Wilder threads were dredged up saying look what happens when you give a manager time!!!! Just how overdue was the sacking then?
I am sure you would have dragged up the anti Wilder threads if it suited your argument. Regarding the points made in my post many posters suggested them so you and I were amongst many. For the umpteenth time I decided to allow JFH the benefit of the Posh game. I was not over the moon about this , but as suggested in a previous message whatever our fate in the R battle his card was marked. |
2020 Grand National S/S 3rd Place
|
|
|
|
everbrite
|
So basically you aren't prepared to have a debate with someone who's better at debating than you are? If you say so; you do like issuing snides don't you! Not my fault he is a fantastic debater. |
2020 Grand National S/S 3rd Place
|
|
|
|
OCoole
|
Just had a read through that thread (to see if I was one moaning)
Yes there were a couple of voices not impressed with Wilder at that point but there were several 'defending' him too.
Nothing like the JFH situation at all.
Hahahaha people do not come off well retrospectively in this thread  Remember when we had a front two of Emile Sinclair and Alan Connell?! No wonder we nearly went non-league!! Also anyone remember 3-game Cristian Lopez from that season? Now a key player at RC Lens, scoring 24 in 46  |
|
|
|
|
|
The 12th Marquis of Sixfields
|
If you say so; you do like issuing snides don't you! Not my fault he is a fantastic debater.
I think it's more that you aren't... |
The Hotelend Grand National Sweepstake Champion 2023
|
|
|
|
everbrite
|
I think it's more that you aren't...
Never claimed to be a good debater. The only one on here capable of presenting a platform for a debate is Alton and perhaps Wolvo. If you wish to react to a cheap comment; am used to opportunistic comments from you. |
2020 Grand National S/S 3rd Place
|
|
|
|
