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What sort of club do you want?

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bungle
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« Reply #20 on: April 02, 2018, 20:04:29 pm »

In retrospect (and although I wanted Tisdale I was cautiously optimistic at the time of his appointment) JFH has been a very poor fit for us.

JFH is a relatively inexperienced manager whose undoubted pedigree as a player has led to a preference for technically adept players (Grimes, Berto, Van Veen etc) who have found themselves playing at our level through a lack of resilience and a lack of genuine ability to impact games.

The last three appointment have each had their own particular fatal flaw: solid, defensive and dour (Page), system-obsessed and width-adverse (JED) and now tinkering, low tempo and obsessed with combatting perceived opposition strengths rather than building a genuine identity (JFH).

The next appointment (obviously) needs to be somebody with the nous to avoid these pitfalls. I want somebody intelligent and fundamentally attack minded with the long-term vision necessary to build something. Tisdale ticks all those boxes for me, but his future will be dependent on what happens with Exeter.
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« Reply #21 on: April 02, 2018, 20:13:47 pm »

The thread was going so well....
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« Reply #22 on: April 03, 2018, 06:10:51 am »

[quote author=meccanostand link=topic=17217.msg354276#msg354276

Kelvin has done his best to drag the club into the 21st Century and he has created the framework to be taken forward but again what outside investors are realistically going to do that in a sustainable way?

Perhaps this conversation should have happened at the time of the Cardoza crisis but it all moved so fast and everyone was just glad of a team to support.



Care to elaborate? Its approaching 3 years now 4 managers in, we have an ownership issue, we have a new toilet door but have lost our league 1 status which equates to 1500 at the gate and £400,000 in lost sky revenues.  We now play forest green as equals... The part of dragging us into the 21st century is the bit Im stuggling with,.

Kelvin has done some good stuff. The club appears to be better run on a match day operational level, facilities have been improved, he's progressive on the case for safe standing, club shop is better, community work has improved. It's all fairly basic stuff but still beyond some of our former owners so credit where credit is due. He's obviously also wrestled with the development side of things.

Will a completed East Stand take us forward? I'm not sure.

Beds has loads of passion for the cause but I'm not seeing much in the way of a vision for the club beyond a bank of terracing behind the North Stand (not against that btw). So what sort of club do you want to support Beds and what basic elements would underpin it?

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« Reply #23 on: April 04, 2018, 09:18:44 am »

Good points Beds. have put some thoughts on this together for the NeneQuirer which will be online at lunchtime.

Think Sammo is right when he says the club lacks identity but that it goes deeper than just playing style.

Unless KT can secure significant and I mean significant funding beyond 5USports capabilities (which I wouldn't put it past him and fingers crossed) then League 1 football is going to be beyond us on a sustained level. As it has through most of our history.

In this light some proper club building is in order with sustainability and a base to build on being the focus. Fwiw I think Kelvin has done a good job of this so far but a more connected approach will help.

Focus should be on.

Stadium: Will a completed East Stand be enough to address the issues that Beds had broached? Think it is questionable whether Sixfields has
              served its purpose and that the block design is characterless and we'll struggle to attract blue chip sponsorship in it.
             
               Would a move back into town help the identity of the club and the connection with the community?

               If we stay at Sixfields surely there needs to be some joined up thinking with the Saints to produce a sporting complex that the whole
               town can be proud of. At least explore this option in an open manner.


               If we are stuck with Sixfields in its current 'shape' then let's have some options on the table on how to improve it. Stevenage have
               already crowd funded a new stand via Tifosy in the time Kelvin has been here. Norwich have crowd -funded a whole new academy.
               A football club is the sum total of its members not just the board and the fan base needs to be harnessed more.

               We could have one of the best home ends in the lower Leagues in a revamped north stand (with safe standing viability) with not too     
               much work. (Think Exeter). Again, a large supporters bar like at Walsall etc is also very possible.


Training Ground: Virtually every club prioritise owning their own purpose built training ground. Moulton should be seen as a temporary option. It is open to the public which isn't ideal and on the wrong side of town. The club have looked at alternative sites in fairness and this should be stepped up. Again, lets have some discussion of the options. Let's have the players opinions of the training facilities as they are the ones that use it.

Supporters Trust: Lost their place on the club board which is not good for modern club governance. Trust needs its place on the board back secured like when the 1st ever trust saved the club. The Trust also needs to receive the requisite new blood to drive it to the position where it was considered the best in the country.

Ownership: If KT considers he has taken the club as far as he can, local ownership options should be explored. Arch capitalist Richard Scudamore of the Premier League hailed Swansea Trust's 25% shareholding as the club as good model and this is achievable at the Cobblers. There must be local business interests that can take up the slack and create a sustainable lower league club. Steven Griggs is a name that has been mentioned and it would be a good legacy for the Griggs family to get involved with NTFC.


Manager: Budget should be put aside for scouting new managers and tacticians. The day of the old-fashioned manager are gone. Club needs to establish a playing style across the age groups as in practice with the England set up and on the continent.

Club also needs to 'grow' managers from within. When one departs there should be a capable replacement in the reserves and further from the youth set-up ready to step up. These will 'know' the club.

Scouting: Needs to be stepped particularly in non-league. Copy Posh in this respect if you have to. Ditto transfer policy.

Players committee. Players should have some recourse to voice their opinions and concerns as to the club etc. They are key components of the club and their views are as important as anyone else's. This could avoid issues of managers losing the dressing room.

Community work: The club is still not the club of the Town despite carrying the name. Need to up the community presence in every way. See Burton's Community Trust. I'd like to see community football hubs in the North, South, East and West of the Town on a mini- scale to the FA's hubs.

Youth players: Time for a quota of one homegrown player in every match day squad as a club policy where possible. Needs to be a clear pathway to the 1st team for youth team players and local players nurtured.

Just a few points. Address these and I believe the club's identity will strengthen as will the club as a whole.

« Last Edit: April 04, 2018, 09:37:07 am by meccanostand » Report Spam   Logged
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« Reply #24 on: April 04, 2018, 10:30:50 am »

Agree with most of your points BUT it will come down to money and I do not know where it will come from!
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« Reply #25 on: April 04, 2018, 10:44:49 am »

some great points meccano and well thought out, all of these points raised are valid and should be what we are aiming for as a club. If it is the case at the minute that money is tight, then the points that you have raised that don't cost a lot should certainly be implemented. I especially think the community side of the club needs to do more and not just in Northampton. Where i live in Kettering you see plenty of Leicester shirts about but not too many Cobblers so lets get the club involved county wide.
We do need an identity and a way of playing from youth right the way up to first team, so players can be developed then fit into an existing system. A young hungry manager is a must in my opinion but ensure he fits into what we want to do as a club and wants to grow with us.
Sammo talked a lot of sense and with a lot of passion on the radio on Monday and it would be great to see him involved with the club again, not necessarily in a managerial role buut maybe coaching somewhere in the set up, the same with Rico if he wants to do his badges bring him back to do them here. If we have coaches and backroom staff involved who the club means something to then that will get passed onto the players and they will want to put more in to the club they are at.
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« Reply #26 on: April 04, 2018, 10:56:50 am »

I'm sure I read somewhere that Rico was working with the u-13s or similar while he does his badges.
 
It is a nice idea to have a production line of coaches who get promoted from within but I'm not sure it is fully possible. I doubt we pay our youth coaches much, anyone decent generally won't stick around long enough to naturally work their way through. Whatever their connection with the club they will move elsewhere if given the chance to progress.

In recent times we've had quite a few ex-players involved in some coaching capacity or other at the club but they still moved on when a bigger/more senior job came up.

Off the top of my head I can think of Parrish, Warburton, Sammo, Hinton, Hill who have been on the staff in recent times, the only one who might still be there is Warburton but I'm not sure.
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« Reply #27 on: April 04, 2018, 11:08:28 am »

Hi Mate, brilliant post, much of what the club should be (I was saying years ago we should have been copying Swansea)

The problem is that although you say KT has done a good job, how much of what you want has he even started to put in place?   Just about nothing i would say, so has he really done a good job?

For what you want to happen you need a Chairman or his number 2 to absolutely love the club and what to see it grow and develop. We missed a fantastic opportunity for the supporters to gain some control of our club with the DC debacle and are stuck with owners who really just want to make a big profit before moving on.

KT has treated the Trust with contempt, refusing a seat on the board and now not even offering to subside travel to Bury, choosing another travel company. If KT was half the decent man many supporters seem to think he is then he would have matched it with them too, I assume he has never paid back the £10k either !

Another problem is that many fans would prefer an outsider in charge rather than local Northampton people and supporters.

NTFC has massive potential but only a few can see it, the rest bury their heads in the sand and are happy to watch their team play in the bottom tier as that is where we have always been.



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« Reply #28 on: April 04, 2018, 12:31:53 pm »

20 year Ground naming rights to fund the East stand fit out to acceptable standard then raise future revenues, selling multiple seasons in advance, fa premiership do grants and loans, local sponsorship and benefactors to help build up behind the south stand to increase capacity and improve the over all look of the place.. not a big fan of crowd funding as it doesn't give any value.
That is all the redevelopment we need right there in which to make us a more attractive to visit and allow us to survive and maybe compete in league 1 when we next return.
The money is there but not the will and thats partly due the owners probably  not wanting it on there watch?


Congrats Beds on reaching 1600 posts...however, not sure copy and pasting every time counts  Grin Grin
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« Reply #29 on: April 04, 2018, 12:57:59 pm »

20 year Ground naming rights to fund the East stand fit out to acceptable standard then raise future revenues, selling multiple seasons in advance, fa premiership do grants and loans, local sponsorship and benefactors to help build up behind the south stand to increase capacity and improve the over all look of the place.. not a big fan of crowd funding as it doesn't give any value.
That is all the redevelopment we need right there in which to make us a more attractive to visit and allow us to survive and maybe compete in league 1 when we next return.
The money is there but not the will and thats partly due the owners probably  not wanting it on there watch?


I'm not sure that we can sell "ground naming rights".....thinking back years Nationwide wanted it.....but weren't allowed. They did however get their name on the outside of the West Stand.

Remember way back when.....Sixfields Community Stadium?? And also remember that Sixfields belongs to the Council.....it isn't ours! We hold the lease but that's a paperwork exercise only, just so the Council don't pay upkeep for "their" facility.

The whole Council/Club relationship does leave me scratching my head at times.

I wonder why the Council would be willing to hand us THEIR land so we can build a new stand and develop facilities on THEIR property and they not see a bean from it!!

Why doesn't the Council sell off the land/leases to the highest bidder themselves, then use some of the money to enhance their stadium?? And then they could also renegotiate the lease to charge us rent on account of the many millions of pounds we'll be pulling in from the enhanced facilities!! :-)

The Club (Board) want something for nothing so the Club can benefit from it......what's in it for the Council?? (Apart from goodwill and being seen to do "the right thing")
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« Reply #30 on: April 04, 2018, 13:07:16 pm »

Wrote this on club identity for Nenequirer. Sorry a few mistakes in it as was bashed out but let me know your thoughts.

https://nenequirer.com/2018/04/04/who-are-ya-hasselbainks-sacking-and-the-search-for-a-cobblers-identity/
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« Reply #31 on: April 04, 2018, 13:14:06 pm »

Wrote this on club identity for Nenequirer. Sorry a few mistakes in it as was bashed out but let me know your thoughts.

https://nenequirer.com/2018/04/04/who-are-ya-hasselbainks-sacking-and-the-search-for-a-cobblers-identity/

A very good read and I agree with all that is written!!
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« Reply #32 on: April 04, 2018, 13:42:23 pm »

Very well written piece, although I don't think fan ownership or part ownership, with places on the Clubs board as being needed or wanted by a large proportion of the fans.
A lot of fans would like a club that feels like it's their life blood, Sixfields doesn't give the fans that feeling. Don't get me wrong, the County Ground was a s***hole and it needed to be vacated. But an all seater small Stadium for a Club the size of Northampton was not the correct choice. Make the Stadium feel like Home, make it noisy, make it hostile. The fans will love it.
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« Reply #33 on: April 04, 2018, 14:08:10 pm »

I agree with most of what's said about creating an identity. The scouting network is woeful compared with other clubs like Coventry City. If a young player playing local football has any ability, they are very good at identifying and contacting player's club/ parents. We don't seem to have anyone doing this. We rely on players turning up for an open day, which is a good way of targeting talent, but not every kid will attend one of these.

We do need our own training ground and pitches. Moulton has excellent facilities but we as a club can't control decisions made by them.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned is the absence of an U23s team. We discard some players far too early that do not have time to develop. I can't understand how clubs like Stevenage can have an U23s, supposedly with far less money than us. It really isn't a lot of money. I can only think we lack an U23s because of a lack of vision and endeavour.
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« Reply #34 on: April 04, 2018, 14:29:10 pm »

That's a very interesting read. It probably says a lot more about me and a lack of vision on my behalf that I saw a lot of problems with the suggestions. Some examples being;

Identity: I genuinely believe that, for the vast majority of the any fan base, the identity is simply derived from what happens on the field. You are absolutely right on the missed opportunity when Wilder left, if we'd kept playing in a similar style we would have identity, even if we were a lower-mid table side.

Ownership: You advocate local ownership with no entity having more than 20% share. As you state in the piece we've been here before and we were constantly rattling buckets. If no one is injecting cash or paying toward the running costs the club would have to live within its means/break even. If we did this where would we be? Probably somewhere mid-League 2. The problem would then be our crowds would fall away, meaning our budget is cut and our natural position would be lower...and it all spirals from there.

EDIT: Forgot to say that I completely agree on getting a Trust rep back on the board, whoever the owners. This is no guarantee of anything - see Swansea being sold without their consultation - but every little helps.

Homegrown Quota: By homegrown I assume you mean "Cobblers Grown"? While this is a very admirable idea the ridiculous academy rules that let the 'big' clubs nab our young players for peanuts means that we often lose our future professional players. Sometimes we get one that escapes notice and makes his way through to the team, the rest of the time we would be handicapping ourselves.

Ditching Sixfields and moving into the town centre: What would this cost us, who would pay? Why would this engage us more with our community? Surely our "community" should be Northampton and surrounding areas, which Sixfields is in, not just the Town Centre?

I fully agree on working with the Saints to create something along the lines of a Sporting Centre of Excellence, that is a great idea. Also community engagement can always be better and I do think there have been steps taken in this area.

Sorry, I know this is a negative post and as I said I accept that may reflect on my lack of vision. Always happy to be taken on a journey to understand how these could work/benefit the club.
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« Reply #35 on: April 04, 2018, 14:38:30 pm »

Very well written piece, although I don't think fan ownership or part ownership, with places on the Clubs board as being needed or wanted by a large proportion of the fans.
A lot of fans would like a club that feels like it's their life blood, Sixfields doesn't give the fans that feeling. Don't get me wrong, the County Ground was a s***hole and it needed to be vacated. But an all seater small Stadium for a Club the size of Northampton was not the correct choice. Make the Stadium feel like Home, make it noisy, make it hostile. The fans will love it.

It's hard to know what a large proportion of fans think unless you ballot them. Again unless the benefits of a % of fan-ownership are explained and tabled properly it's hard to make an informed decision.

Agree about the atmosphere thing. Whatever the outcome with ownership I agree with Beds that an improved North Stand with standing facilities would help with this and should be fast tracked. A Hotel End mkII if you will.
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« Reply #36 on: April 04, 2018, 14:44:24 pm »

That's a very interesting read. It probably says a lot more about me and a lack of vision on my behalf that I saw a lot of problems with the suggestions. Some examples being;

Identity: I genuinely believe that, for the vast majority of the any fan base, the identity is simply derived from what happens on the field. You are absolutely right on the missed opportunity when Wilder left, if we'd kept playing in a similar style we would have identity, even if we were a lower-mid table side.

Ownership: You advocate local ownership with no entity having more than 20% share. As you state in the piece we've been here before and we were constantly rattling buckets. If no one is injecting cash or paying toward the running costs the club would have to live within its means/break even. If we did this where would we be? Probably somewhere mid-League 2. The problem would then be our crowds would fall away, meaning our budget is cut and our natural position would be lower...and it all spirals from there.

EDIT: Forgot to say that I completely agree on getting a Trust rep back on the board, whoever the owners. This is no guarantee of anything - see Swansea being sold without their consultation - but every little helps.

Homegrown Quota: By homegrown I assume you mean "Cobblers Grown"? While this is a very admirable idea the ridiculous academy rules that let the 'big' clubs nab our young players for peanuts means that we often lose our future professional players. Sometimes we get one that escapes notice and makes his way through to the team, the rest of the time we would be handicapping ourselves.

Ditching Sixfields and moving into the town centre: What would this cost us, who would pay? Why would this engage us more with our community? Surely our "community" should be Northampton and surrounding areas, which Sixfields is in, not just the Town Centre?

I fully agree on working with the Saints to create something along the lines of a Sporting Centre of Excellence, that is a great idea. Also community engagement can always be better and I do think there have been steps taken in this area.

Sorry, I know this is a negative post and as I said I accept that may reflect on my lack of vision. Always happy to be taken on a journey to understand how these could work/benefit the club.

A 25% share is just an example of the options available for a fan stake, it's not set in stone if you excuse the pun. When you refer to rattling buckets you'll find that came before the Trust under McRitchie and after the iTV Digital Collapse. The club achieved some great things when the Trust were involved.

There is absolutely no reason that the club can't prosper with fan involvement as Swansea did before making the disastrous imo decision to sell to Americans.

Agree completely about the EPPP and PL clubs poaching our best youngsters but as we've seen it is possible to still bring players through, Jacobs, Toney, McWiliams etc. If we have local players with potential they have to feature in and around the 1st team more.

Couldn't disagree more that identity only comes from what happens on the pitch. A club is so much more than that.

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« Reply #37 on: April 04, 2018, 14:52:04 pm »

As always it's a matter of opinions. If trying to give the club identity involves fan ownership, then I have no interest in that.
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« Reply #38 on: April 04, 2018, 15:00:50 pm »

A 25% share is just an example of the options available for a fan stake, it's not set in stone if you excuse the pun. When you refer to rattling buckets you'll find that came before the Trust under McRitchie and after the iTV Digital Collapse. The club achieved some great things when the Trust were involved.

There is absolutely no reason that the club can't prosper with fan involvement as Swansea did before making the disastrous imo decision to sell to Americans.

Agree completely about the EPPP and PL clubs poaching our best youngsters but as we've seen it is possible to still bring players through, Jacobs, Toney, McWiliams etc. If we have local players with potential they have to feature in and around the 1st team more.

Couldn't disagree more that identity only comes from what happens on the pitch. A club is so much more than that.

Pre-Cardoza we courted Fashanu/Di Stefano under local ownership because they couldn't afford to take the club forward. Understand that the ITV Digital collapse was a major factor but at the end of the day that whole fiasco was because someone offered too much for a FL TV deal, if it had never happened the outside investment would likely have still been sought out. When KT took us on there was a local group in the wings but they were very clear they could see us through that season and no more.

I've often thought Swansea were a good model as you say I probably lack the understanding of how it would work. How were they funded in those years? Did they break even? Were they racking up debts and they kept their head above water because they enjoyed pretty unprecedented success?

You've said it yourself, we have a pretty good record of getting players into the first team, why the need to mandate it? All you are doing is weakening yourself if the current crop aren't good enough. We haven't had many that came through our system and left because we didn't play them enough. Danny Green springs to mind, aside from that...?

A club is more than the on field to it's hard core but not, I would suggest to the rest of its fan base. How much of our support is the hard core? 15%? 25%? For the rest, they generally don't care who funds us, what our youth teams do, which schools we visit, they just care about what happens on the pitch. That's why attendances drop when we're losing.

Build a reputation for being an entertaining, attacking side and I believe you will attract fans and investment that can help grow the club.
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« Reply #39 on: April 04, 2018, 15:12:21 pm »

Pre-Cardoza we courted Fashanu/Di Stefano under local ownership because they couldn't afford to take the club forward. Understand that the ITV Digital collapse was a major factor but at the end of the day that whole fiasco was because someone offered too much for a FL TV deal, if it had never happened the outside investment would likely have still been sought out. When KT took us on there was a local group in the wings but they were very clear they could see us through that season and no more.

I've often thought Swansea were a good model as you say I probably lack the understanding of how it would work. How were they funded in those years? Did they break even? Were they racking up debts and they kept their head above water because they enjoyed pretty unprecedented success?

You've said it yourself, we have a pretty good record of getting players into the first team, why the need to mandate it? All you are doing is weakening yourself if the current crop aren't good enough. We haven't had many that came through our system and left because we didn't play them enough. Danny Green springs to mind, aside from that...?

A club is more than the on field to it's hard core but not, I would suggest to the rest of its fan base. How much of our support is the hard core? 15%? 25%? For the rest, they generally don't care who funds us, what our youth teams do, which schools we visit, they just care about what happens on the pitch. That's why attendances drop when we're losing.

Build a reputation for being an entertaining, attacking side and I believe you will attract fans and investment that can help grow the club.

Take the club forward? Explain to me how the club has been brought forward?

I can't speak with authority about the latter days of the Trust having an interest in the club. Tony Clarke would be good for that. What I can say is that there is absolutely no reason now, with far improved support and understanding of fan stakes in clubs that we could not operate with a minority fan shareholding. Swansea's Trust history is a simple case of googling I'm not doing that for you.

I'd say we need a few more fans that aren't just happy clappers and a few more willing to properly engage with how the club is run. Empower the Trust and provide an environment for involvement and we can build the fan base in different ways.

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