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Where next for Jimmy?

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Author Topic: Where next for Jimmy?  (Read 9090 times)
alton
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« Reply #60 on: June 24, 2018, 18:12:39 pm »

I respect your view alton but my measure of what makes a good manager/coach is the way they deal with what they have in terms of personnel and how they adapt/improve them due to their tactical/coaching skills and insights. Arguably none of JED, page or JFH showed any tactical flexibility or actually improved any of the players they had available to them in their time as manager. I genuinely hope that Austin is the coaching genius that we have been looking for and manages to impart his tactical insights on the players but as Iíve said before for better or worse this is a results business and he will live or die by them. Another thing worth bearing in mind is what will happen if KT manages to find a buyer/investor - if he does thereís a good chance they will have their own ideas who they want as manager.

It'a been said many times before but a fan's tactics never fails and team selection never loses. People adapt their choices to suit the result after a game but the manager never has that luxury.
You've got to respect that a manager knows more about football tactics than the average fan simply because he's generally lived the sport since he was a youngster and is immersed in it every day. Watching a live game most weeks and listening to the MOTD pundits does not make you that level of an expert no matter how much you like to think.
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Irchy cob
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« Reply #61 on: June 24, 2018, 18:34:27 pm »

It'a been said many times before but a fan's tactics never fails and team selection never loses. People adapt their choices to suit the result after a game but the manager never has that luxury.
You've got to respect that a manager knows more about football tactics than the average fan simply because he's generally lived the sport since he was a youngster and is immersed in it every day. Watching a live game most weeks and listening to the MOTD pundits does not make you that level of an expert no matter how much you like to think.

Youíll have to point out where I said that my (or the fans) tactical knowledge was greater than the previous 3 managers - I think the results and performances that they achieved bear out their respective abilities.
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alton
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« Reply #62 on: June 24, 2018, 19:30:41 pm »

Youíll have to point out where I said that my (or the fans) tactical knowledge was greater than the previous 3 managers - I think the results and performances that they achieved bear out their respective abilities.

It's where you said "Arguably none of JED, page or JFH showed any tactical flexibility or actually improved any of the players they had available to them in their time as manager".That suggests to me you are claiming to have knowledge beyond theirs in order to make the criticism.
I'm not sure why any would be able to improve players beyond the previous manager especially if they happen to signed by a predecessor. There's a limited amount a manager can contribute to a player's performance and despite the media's attempts to bestow special powers on them it's basically the player's ability within a defined role.
I'm just suggesting none of the three were given sufficient opportunity to build a balanced squad and the sackings compounded the problems rather than solved them.
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Irchy cob
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« Reply #63 on: June 24, 2018, 20:00:18 pm »

Again we come back to the results (without even mentioning some of the performances), the best way of measuring any kind of success or failure of a manager - JED had a win percentage of 24%, page 29% and JFH 23% and it's hard to see that anything would have changed if we'd given any of them more time. If what you say is true and managers don't have much of an impact on improving players then Austin is going to have a major challenge on his hands as it looks like there's not going to be much of a turnover in personnel. Ultimately we are in agreement, in an ideal world you would pick a manager and give him a minimum of 2 to 3 years to build his squad but this is football and that doesn't happen - when you do occasionally get a successful manager like wilder he gets poached and you're back to square one.
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cobblerwatch
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« Reply #64 on: June 24, 2018, 22:31:02 pm »

It's where you said "Arguably none of JED, page or JFH showed any tactical flexibility or actually improved any of the players they had available to them in their time as manager".That suggests to me you are claiming to have knowledge beyond theirs in order to make the criticism.


....whilst I agree with your general principle that the sacking of managers too soon and on a regular basis rarely brings success I think you make the mistake of equating knowledge with being able to apply it in a people management situation - JFH was a fantastic player and I would say considerable more football knowledge than anyone who post on this board but that doesnít make him a good manager. In fact history shows the best players rarely make good managers but itís the average ones who seem to succeed perhaps because they have more empathy for a squad of players with differing abilities.
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alton
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« Reply #65 on: June 29, 2018, 19:25:23 pm »

....whilst I agree with your general principle that the sacking of managers too soon and on a regular basis rarely brings success I think you make the mistake of equating knowledge with being able to apply it in a people management situation - JFH was a fantastic player and I would say considerable more football knowledge than anyone who post on this board but that doesnít make him a good manager. In fact history shows the best players rarely make good managers but itís the average ones who seem to succeed perhaps because they have more empathy for a squad of players with differing abilities.

My point about JFH living football since childhood equally applies to virtually every professional player so I wasn't drawing any difference because he had such a successful playing career. Dean Austin has done the same rigorous coaching badges and there's no reason to believe he will be any less of a manager because he didn't get to the same heights as a player.
The problem all managers have is they are up against virtually equivalent people who've done the same courses, know all the same tactics and man management skills.
I don't believe there's a great deal of difference between managers at any levels despite what Sky Sports would lead us to believe. None have any revolutionary tactics so for me how the do is down to two factors - money and luck. If you've got a decent budget you'll do ok, if it's your lucky season then you'll do ok too. Managers should not believe their season is down to anything special they did, nor should the fans.
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« Reply #66 on: June 30, 2018, 10:36:10 am »

None have any revolutionary tactics so for me how the do is down to two factors - money and luck. If you've got a decent budget you'll do ok, if it's your lucky season then you'll do ok too.

Not buying this at all.

We had a more than 'decent budget' last year but were massively outperformed by teams such as Shrewsbury who had less money but a man at the helm who had a far better tactical brain and transfer market acumen than any of our sorry incumbents.

If we had a manager from day one who didn't try to play a formation which was patently unsuitable for the personnel (JED) and then one who didn't sign players who were manifestly of an unsuitable character for a relegation dogfight (JFH signing KVV, Peirera, Bunney etc) then we would have stayed up.

Can you really ascribe Chris Wilder's success to 'money and luck' during our adversity-defying title winning side? Can you really say that there wasn't something 'revolutionary' or at least tactically innovative in Alan Knill's free kick routines (which have apparently been studied on the continent)?

Managers make a huge difference. Hopefully we now have a man at the helm who is at the very least a decent man- manager who is intelligent enough to keep it simple and clear tactically and let the players express themselves. That sounds easy to achieve, but we have had a litany of clowns who have failed on both these counts.







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DrillingCobbler
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« Reply #67 on: June 30, 2018, 14:13:10 pm »

I do kind of know where Alton is coming from, I also can see Bungles valid points to mitigate them.

Something though to consider (Bungle).

Why didn't Carr, Atkins, Wilson or Calderwood 'kick on' when they left the Cobblers after a successful period with us? With regards to Calderwood, I never thought of him as a good manager, that has been proven to a large extent in his spells with Nottingham Forest (were heading back down before he was sacked) and in particular his disastrous spell in Scotland.

But Atkins and Carr both worked with tiny budgets and performed miracles. Both had fairly unique tactics (Ireland modelled theirs on Carrs), yet neither did anything of note after they left us.

I do think theres a huge amount of luck involved, an absolute huge amount. If Pompey hadn't let Ricky Holmes come to us, then perhaps things may have been VERY different. If Sinclair hadn't of been so completely useless in a must win game v Pompey (by which point his continued selection had become absolutely baffling) then Ivan Toney wouldn't have pitched up at Dagenham! If key players had got themselves injured, then the same can be said. Under Atkins, the season we went down was easily the unluckiest Cobblers squad I've ever witnessed. Then confidence was shot, but once Wilson took over he tried a different approach and was successful.

Good debate. I look forward to seeing Altons response to Bungles!

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Tabasco Kid
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« Reply #68 on: June 30, 2018, 14:30:48 pm »

Why didn't Carr, Atkins, Wilson or Calderwood 'kick on' when they left the Cobblers after a successful period with us?
I can recall Kev Wilson working as a yard man, for a roofing company down Letts road ind est.
I dont know the reasons behind it, but like all of us, he has bills to pay.





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« Reply #69 on: July 02, 2018, 09:39:00 am »

I don't believe it's about just luck and money either, although both play an important part and money particularly at higher levels in the game.

In the end though, at our level, it seems to be mostly about good fits. There are very few managers who are successful at every club they go to. Things seem to click when the manager has and/or creates the right attitude among the players, has a clear system of play and the right blend of players to apply it, and gets a few results (whether by good performances or luck) which develops confidence, leading to more good results. That's perhaps over-simplistic but I reckon that's the essence of it, with or without money. Page seemed to create a negative attitude among the players (re training system for example), JED chose a system that didn't suit the players he had (or even those he brought in) and JFH expected our players to adapt to and change systems of play every match, depending on the opposition and sometimes even up to 3 or 4 times during matches, so there was no clarity, just confusion among the players.

I've said before that I think DA is going to be a good fit and is very much in the CW mold in terms of his attitude and what he seems to be looking for. Fingers crossed that's the case and looking forward to the new season.
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« Reply #70 on: July 02, 2018, 10:01:33 am »

I don't believe it's about just luck and money either, although both play an important part and money particularly at higher levels in the game.

In the end though, at our level, it seems to be mostly about good fits. There are very few managers who are successful at every club they go to. Things seem to click when the manager has and/or creates the right attitude among the players, has a clear system of play and the right blend of players to apply it, and gets a few results (whether by good performances or luck) which develops confidence, leading to more good results. That's perhaps over-simplistic but I reckon that's the essence of it, with or without money. Page seemed to create a negative attitude among the players (re training system for example), JED chose a system that didn't suit the players he had (or even those he brought in) and JFH expected our players to adapt to and change systems of play every match, depending on the opposition and sometimes even up to 3 or 4 times during matches, so there was no clarity, just confusion among the players.

I've said before that I think DA is going to be a good fit and is very much in the CW mold in terms of his attitude and what he seems to be looking for. Fingers crossed that's the case and looking forward to the new season.

i think the main difference between CW and those since is that he wanted to try and win games, and the next 3 wanted to avoid losing them................no players enjoy being stifled week in week out.

i think we would all rather see a team that went for it every game................unless it meant we ended up getting dicked every game obviously.
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« Reply #71 on: July 02, 2018, 11:32:40 am »

It'a been said many times before but a fan's tactics never fails and team selection never loses. People adapt their choices to suit the result after a game but the manager never has that luxury.
You've got to respect that a manager knows more about football tactics than the average fan simply because he's generally lived the sport since he was a youngster and is immersed in it every day. Watching a live game most weeks and listening to the MOTD pundits does not make you that level of an expert no matter how much you like to think.

Well said Alton - often Irchy knows best Roll Eyes tho'.
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Irchy cob
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« Reply #72 on: July 02, 2018, 11:39:39 am »

Well said Alton - often Irchy knows best Roll Eyes tho'.

Iím glad youíre finally learning Evers, itís taken you over a week to figure it out though  Roll Eyes
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meccanostand
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« Reply #73 on: July 02, 2018, 12:15:16 pm »

Agents aren't discussed enough. Managers are often signed to agents...
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Wolvo
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« Reply #74 on: July 02, 2018, 13:31:30 pm »

Agents aren't discussed enough. Managers are often signed to agents...

Obviously. What's your point?
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« Reply #75 on: July 02, 2018, 15:06:22 pm »

Sensible debate on this one with some good points in the main (apart from the usual point scorers) - for me, man management and a degree of humility (ie accepting you are wrong and being able to change) are equally as important to coaching skills with the man management little to do with ďfootballĒ knowledge.
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« Reply #76 on: July 02, 2018, 16:04:31 pm »

My point about JFH living football since childhood equally applies to virtually every professional player so I wasn't drawing any difference because he had such a successful playing career. Dean Austin has done the same rigorous coaching badges and there's no reason to believe he will be any less of a manager because he didn't get to the same heights as a player.
The problem all managers have is they are up against virtually equivalent people who've done the same courses, know all the same tactics and man management skills.
I don't believe there's a great deal of difference between managers at any levels despite what Sky Sports would lead us to believe. None have any revolutionary tactics so for me how the do is down to two factors - money and luck. If you've got a decent budget you'll do ok, if it's your lucky season then you'll do ok too. Managers should not believe their season is down to anything special they did, nor should the fans.


The first bit in bold: exactly, they all take 'the same courses'. The courses mean next to nothing. Do you really think taking a few exams after a long playing career (in your words, 'immersed themselves in the game since they were young') is going to make any appreciable difference to an ex-professionals chances of becoming a good manager? Know all the man-management skills? Again, theoretical knowledge of 'man-management' is virtually useless. It takes a certain personality to be a successful manager. This simply can't be taught, and it's the managers personality/charisma/leadership qualities that will make him a good 'man-manager' or not. Page/Edinburgh/Hasselbaink didn't have 'it', and though it's early on in his reign, Austin appears to have 'it' in spades.

The second bit in bold: You can not really believe that if a manager has decent budget or simply a 'lucky season' they will 'do OK'. This is complete nonsense IMO. Having a decent budget gives you an advantage but it is far from a given that a decent budget will guarantee any kind of success. Both Guardiola and Mourinho had huge budgets last season, both were aiming to win the title. One team generally played a defensive game, with a more direct attacking style, while one played an open possession style of play. Both managers have very different personalities and man-management approaches. Essentially both have stamped their personality, their fingerprint, on their team. If the managers had been hired by the other club, then the styles of play and most likely end of season result would have been reversed. The managers are everything to these teams current differing levels of success IMO.

Now back to the second half of Brazil-Mexico!
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everbrite
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« Reply #77 on: July 02, 2018, 19:25:12 pm »

Obviously. What's your point?


 Grin  Grin
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« Reply #78 on: July 04, 2018, 08:28:10 am »

You actually being serious??

Maybe we could have given Jimmy another 12 months and ended up in Confrence hey?

 HA,HA.. GOOD POST.
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« Reply #79 on: July 04, 2018, 21:00:25 pm »

It'a been said many times before but a fan's tactics never fails and team selection never loses. People adapt their choices to suit the result after a game but the manager never has that luxury.
You've got to respect that a manager knows more about football tactics than the average fan simply because he's generally lived the sport since he was a youngster and is immersed in it every day. Watching a live game most weeks and listening to the MOTD pundits does not make you that level of an expert no matter how much you like to think.
Bungle will be upset!
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