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Look from within

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PineWoody
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« Reply #20 on: June 06, 2010, 10:14:23 am »

I don't think this is as big a disaster as many are saying. I know relatively little about our youth set-up so i'm willing to be told otherwise, but while i accept the youth set up has clearly improve a lot under Harrop, we haven't really seen all that many youth teamers come through.

That I can remember only Bunn, Dunn and Chambers have really made the step up into very good first team footballers. Then you can add on the two youngsters who have gone to premiership clubs, but then has our youth system really benefitted them if they are leaving at 15/16. For all this "the youth set up has improved dramatically", I don't think the end products, which lets face it is all that matters, the set up could be as professional as you want but if none of them step up into the first team then its worthless, have been fairly slow in coiming through.

Personally, anyone who thinks Harrop was as important as Bayo was to us last year has had a few too many drinks.
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« Reply #21 on: June 06, 2010, 10:16:25 am »

Big big shame that.... Step up for Sean Parrish instead of leaving to wherever it was he was talking about...
Telford?
Eddie and Tevor Gould have both applied but there'll be loads of applicants for it
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« Reply #22 on: June 06, 2010, 10:36:36 am »

I don't think this is as big a disaster as many are saying. I know relatively little about our youth set-up so i'm willing to be told otherwise, but while i accept the youth set up has clearly improve a lot under Harrop, we haven't really seen all that many youth teamers come through.


It takes time to build a youth set up and for the results to come through.  Two players sold to Premierhsip clubs is pretty good going by any standards, and I was told the other day that someone involved at Coventry - and I forget who it was - felt that Harrop's current set of youngsters is a match for anything they have.  Michael Jacobs is almost certainly going to be a first squad member this season too.  As for the comment re Bayo, his goals may have kept us up this season, but he's been paid handsomely for his efforts and we've otherwise had little return from him and certainly not the sort of loyalty one might expect from some of his sycophantic comments.  A good youth set is the foundation for a club at this level, and to lose the continuity and jeopardise the investement and progress already made is in my opinion - and it's only an opinion - somewhat questionable.
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« Reply #23 on: June 06, 2010, 10:51:57 am »

It takes time to build a youth set up and for the results to come through.  Two players sold to Premierhsip clubs is pretty good going by any standards, and I was told the other day that someone involved at Coventry - and I forget who it was - felt that Harrop's current set of youngsters is a match for anything they have.  Michael Jacobs is almost certainly going to be a first squad member this season too.  As for the comment re Bayo, his goals may have kept us up this season, but he's been paid handsomely for his efforts and we've otherwise had little return from him and certainly not the sort of loyalty one might expect from some of his sycophantic comments.  A good youth set is the foundation for a club at this level, and to lose the continuity and jeopardise the investement and progress already made is in my opinion - and it's only an opinion - somewhat questionable.

You know you'll never fit in here if you keep talking sense  Grin
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« Reply #24 on: June 06, 2010, 10:53:31 am »

I couldn't agree more that it doesn't make sense to let Harrop go when the youth academy has come on a lot and that it could jepardise the good work that has been done. I just feel that people are going over the top when stating the work that has been done. Lets face it we have just had to give up on the previous generation of youngsters in Dyer and Benjamin, who many tipped to be first teamers here.

Don't get me wrong, I completely hope that Jacobs and others can push on to be in and around the first team this season, but I haven't seen any of them as of yet, other than a very brief spell of Jacobs so to say that are examples of the youth acadamy, not that you have Insider, but others have, is a bit premature.

As you say, time will tell whether the youth set up really has come on in terms of providing the club with useful first team players as well as just become more professional.
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« Reply #25 on: June 06, 2010, 11:12:21 am »

I couldn't agree more that it doesn't make sense to let Harrop go when the youth academy has come on a lot and that it could jepardise the good work that has been done. I just feel that people are going over the top when stating the work that has been done. Lets face it we have just had to give up on the previous generation of youngsters in Dyer and Benjamin, who many tipped to be first teamers here.

Don't get me wrong, I completely hope that Jacobs and others can push on to be in and around the first team this season, but I haven't seen any of them as of yet, other than a very brief spell of Jacobs so to say that are examples of the youth acadamy, not that you have Insider, but others have, is a bit premature.

As you say, time will tell whether the youth set up really has come on in terms of providing the club with useful first team players as well as just become more professional.

But its the quality of the coach. Harrop is very sought after he has a good reputation with his work in Australia, In the UK and his work at Rushden. Your thinking, well Rushden hardly produced world beaters did they but thats not the point he help build that system that has produced some players for them and saved the alot of money. I mean one or two prospect he helped tutor again left for bigger clubs, Paris Cowan-Hall being one of the most notable. But Harrop isn't just 'a youth team coach'. Harrop was the spear head of our scouting system. There is a reason the BBC followed him and interviewed him at the Exit trials last season.

As someone mentioned he took charge of that department like it was his own child, he ran the system I believe with a majority of funds from outside the football club and budget* and this helped the club save some money and he had control over his own budget.

But as I said his nous as a scout is what makes him so important to the youth set up. I mean links such as http://www.backofthenetfc.com/?p=5.Success+stories, http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/paulfletcher/2010/02/keeping_the_football_dream_ali.html?page=13,  just make you wonder who hard he worked just to uncover the next talent.

*I'm just going on word of mouth, what I read and what I hear
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« Reply #26 on: June 06, 2010, 11:26:11 am »

I am not knocking Harrop's quality as a coach or scout, infact, he seems to be fairly outstanding on both parts. But currently, whether it is down to him, or down to mangers not will to try players in the first team etc, our youth set up has not produced many goods. As i said in the last however many years, I honestly haven't got a clue how long Harrop has been in charge, we have had 5 products of our academy. Bunn, Dunn, Chambers and the two lads who moved onto Premiership clubs for a fee. Thats covering at least 4 years I would say, now I would say that is a no better than average return from a football league clubs academy. But it does show how profitable a good one can be, with the club profiting from 4 out of the 5 players who have "made it". I think it is worrying that Harrop would join Torquay over extending his stay over us, particulalry if he was on the verge of bringing through a generation of several players who would ply for the first team.

But in my opinion, a youth academy is there to prvide players for our first team, whether they go on to be solid first team players, as i suspect Dunn will, or whether they have greater potential, such as Bunn and Chambers, and when our youth set up is contributing several squad players every few seasons then i will accept it is a major part of our club and I cannot wait for that to be the case.
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« Reply #27 on: June 06, 2010, 11:45:25 am »

Maybe they just offered him more money? That's the usual reasoning behind players/staff switching clubs.
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« Reply #28 on: June 06, 2010, 12:38:41 pm »

If Harrop is as good as most of you think he is surely a bigger fish than Torquay would have come a calling?
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« Reply #29 on: June 06, 2010, 18:04:27 pm »

Three lads who,ve passed through our youth system have signed pro forms this summer, thats two more than the chairmans target for each year. I accept that until they feature in the first team, it means very little, but given that four years ago our youth scheme was non existant, i think it,s clear that Geoff Harrup has done an exceptional job.Geoffs departure is the biggest loss of the summer. Pop on down to NSB on a sunday morning next season and take a look at some of the talent we,ve got on the books, but make it quick, as in the wake of Geoffs exit, who knows how long we can hold on to them, believe me there,s no shortage of suitors
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« Reply #30 on: June 06, 2010, 19:27:08 pm »

If Harrop is as good as most of you think he is surely a bigger fish than Torquay would have come a calling?

There are a few answers to that one.  For starters, not all clubs have an extensive youth team set up, so fewer jobs.  Secondly, most youth team/academy managers outlive more than one first team manager - I just did a quick trawl of a dozen Championship clubs, and nearly all have been in situ for 4+ years; so it's not a fluid marketplace. And when they do promote they tend to promote from within such that the U16s manager will become the U18s manager and so on. Reading the Torquay announcement again, Harrop also gets to be reserve team manager, which he couldn't have hoped for at Sixfields.  For Prem teams the youth set up is often the first step on the coaching and management ladder for famous players, and hence not the opportunities there.  Plus there has been ongoing uncertainty about the funding of the youth set up at Sixfields (it nearly folded a couple of years ago), whereas Torquay seem to be making a very firm commitment. 
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« Reply #31 on: June 06, 2010, 20:20:06 pm »

If Harrop is as good as most of you think he is surely a bigger fish than Torquay would have come a calling?

Torquay are a big fish compared to the cobblers  Grin
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« Reply #32 on: June 07, 2010, 02:13:27 am »

Well as no youth teamers have made it through to become established first teamers at Sixfields it's going to be difficult to measure how much of a loss Harrop will be.

I wish him well but his departure is met with indifference on my behalf.
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« Reply #33 on: June 07, 2010, 07:42:03 am »

The $64000 question has to be, is Harrop being replaced or is it simply a cost cutting measure?  And while we don't know the sums involved Anton Blackwood (Spurs), Mark Randall (Arsenal) and Courntey Cameron (Villa) are all his products and all regular reserve teamers, we just don't know yet how good they are or what they might have generated in transfer fees.  Because they have gone straight to Prem clubs it will take a while for them to force there way in to a first team or find pro football perhaps at a lower level.  Add Jacobs and Konstantinou and that's not a bad return; one player a year for £200k would be more than enough to make the youth set up profitable.  Only time will tell.
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« Reply #34 on: June 07, 2010, 09:00:20 am »

Still nothing on the official site!!! But its good to know the Cobblers have teamed up with the NHS to encourage people to quit smoking!!

On the subject of players "breaking through into the first team", is that down to Harrop? He trains them as youths, gets them to the position where they are knocking on the first team door, then presumably Sammo and Crosby take over and the youths then train with the first team.
Harrop does his job to get them to a certain position, then its up to the player themselves or the first team coaching staff to kick on from there.
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« Reply #35 on: June 07, 2010, 12:20:53 pm »



It is now on the official site!....

http://www.ntfc.co.uk/page/NewsDetail/0,,10425~2065565,00.html
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Erith_Cobbler
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« Reply #36 on: June 07, 2010, 12:31:52 pm »

Do we get some sort of fee?
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PineWoody
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« Reply #37 on: June 07, 2010, 13:41:24 pm »

On the subject of players "breaking through into the first team", is that down to Harrop? He trains them as youths, gets them to the position where they are knocking on the first team door, then presumably Sammo and Crosby take over and the youths then train with the first team.
Harrop does his job to get them to a certain position, then its up to the player themselves or the first team coaching staff to kick on from there.
There is without doubt a point where Harrop and the other youth coaches can do no more and the players have to be given a chance by the first team manager and the player themselves have to continue to work hard.

But nevertheless, in my opinion, we can't be claiming to have a very good youth system when currently we have one first teamer who has come through our academy, and even he got shunned by a loanee towards the end of last season. I know it takes time, and i'm willing to be patient to see the right youngsters come through, but the way some on here are raving about our youth academy just doesn't make sense in my opinion.
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« Reply #38 on: June 07, 2010, 13:59:19 pm »

but the way some on here are raving about our youth academy just doesn't make sense in my opinion.

You have to remember that some people are never happy unless they have something to moan about.

PS: Just wait until the first signing is announced, they'll be slaughtered on here.
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« Reply #39 on: June 07, 2010, 16:00:54 pm »

Maybe they just offered him more money? That's the usual reasoning behind players/staff switching clubs.

Refer to removed thread on sorting out the clubs finances  Grin
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