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It's not coming home

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rebelspawn
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« Reply #40 on: July 13, 2018, 07:33:03 am »

God knows where to start with this one!

The England players were outclassed. You can't honestly think that Henderson, Ali and Lingard are even close to the same level of Modric, Rakitic, and Perisic, or that either Maguire or Stones is a good a centre-back as Vida etc. This isn't 'demeaning' them. There's a gulf in class and it showed on the night.

Modric is arguably the midfielder of his generation, while Rakitic has been holding his own winning Champions Leagues and consecutive La Liga's in the same midfield/attack as Messi and Iniesta for the last 5 years. You're talking about the best of the best.

'For me it took too long for the Croats to equalise, let alone win'.

I can't tell if you're joking with that one! Should a team have to equalise before a certain time to prove they are the better team? And if they only win in injury time, that means they haven't showed their class? How about winning on penalties like England did with Colombia?

As regards Colombian tactics, I am well aware of the media's party line but I simply don't agree with it. To use a phrase such as 'Colombian brutality' is just flat-out incorrect. Have you ever served jury service?  Grin

I agree with your summary of the Croatia game pretty much

But 23 fouls to 13 and 6 yellow cards to 2 plus a penalty conceded suggests 'Colombian brutality' is a reasonable comment to make without even considering the general behavior of their players, particularly Falcao, both during play and stoppages.
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« Reply #41 on: July 13, 2018, 09:16:21 am »

My observations…

I felt that, until Wednesday night….we 'managed' our way through quite nicely, albeit against (in the main) moderate competition. BUT. You can only beat whose put in front of you!

The group games:

Tunisia…battered them first half, then struggled. But definitely deserved the win, albeit earned in the last minute. 7/10.

Panama…chances all went in. One of those days. I thought we played better in the first half V Tunisa than we did in this match but you can't argue with 5-0 at HT! Regardless of the opposition. 7/10.

Belgium…irrelevant. Id have done the same, fielded a 2nd 1x.

Columbia…felt we definitely deserved the win. A better ref would have ensured we'd have won it comfortably in normal time. They scored at the bitter end, despite never looking likely to score. That goal 'was one of those things'. We did look leggy in the first half of extra time but sorted ourselves in the 2nd period.  7/10.

Sweden…Easily our best performance of the World Cup, and most controlled. Comfortable. 8/10.

Croatia. First 30 minutes - excellent. Got deeper and deeper. 2nd half and extra time - Id go as far as saying we were rubbish! I've said for many years, the worst time to score is in the first 5 minutes. It relaxes the opposition and the winning team gets nervous. What I found frustrating was the lack of proactive changes made by the management; Id have brought on an enforcer 5-10 minutes into the 2nd half to help Henderson screen the defence and for us to try and take some control of the midfield area. Like for like sub Sterling/Rashford was never going to work and it didn't. The last hour of play was on a par with the performance against Iceland. Indeed, much of the game reminded me of that match…early goal, all over them, got deeper…and deeper…misplaced passes, the inevitable happened. 5/10.

Overall, we had a good world cup. I wouldn't go as far as saying it was amazing, we didn't beat a big team. BUT. What we have is a first x1 that I believe can improve significantly and give it a real go in 2-4 years time. They precisely met my expectations pre-tournament in the sense that we had a decent run and came away having given us hope for the future. I never believed they were good enough to win it this time round, that said I did get carried away with it all, I had my flags in the front windows etc! Its been a dam good 3 weeks. Our future looks bright for once!



This.

I posted a very similar set of observations on FB after the game on Wednesday.

This World Cup has been a great watch - very few dull matches and VAR definitely added some spice. The truth is though, the big teams are not as good as they were and the lesser teams are a bit better - the gap has closed.

As for England, we seemed to start games really well but rarely saw it through as stylishly as the start suggested we would / could.

Whilst the "reconnect" is encouraging, the majority have got a bit carried away: We struggled past Tunisia, battered the worst team in the tournament then had a dead rubber against Belgium.

We then struggled again to get past a second tier South American side in Colombia. Whilst I wouldn't call them brutal, they definitely dabbled in the dark arts....

Then to Sweden. A funny one this, we were in total control but I wouldn't say we were devastating. Sweden were in the main really poor and nowhere near their usual robust selves. Still, it was a sweet win.

What happened then was people started thinking Croatia would be a pushover - worn-out from two 120 minute plus games.

The difference here is whilst England were undoubtedly well organised, Croatia, as always, have some real class players. I've always rated the Croats, though their main problem has always been that they are (were) always guaranteed to throw a bad game in and it ultimately causes them to go out.

What the semi showed up is where England are still a few steps behind the top teams - midfield.

I thought the keeper and defence were immense this tournament. For a young sextet (ironically Young excluded) they showed real confidence. I was never really worried about them. The twonk who rates Maguire as deficient and an accident waiting to happen must have been watching a different player to me. He, along with Trippier and Pickford were the ones who stood out. I'll even pass over that Pickford should have saved against Belgium and Trippier should have cleared off the line against Colombia - they were that good otherwise.

Stones was solid, Walker steady (though still has much to learn about defending crosses). young was okay - I'd have preferred Rose from the start tbh.

Kane started well but the euphoria of the late winner v Tunisia flatters. He was immense though against Colombia - won everything and drew foul after foul. He really did tire though. I'm not going to bash him for missing in the semi - up to then he was 100%. We really do need to find someone to support him though - Vardy is not that man - he's had his 5 minutes of fame.

And so to the midfield. Firstly, we have to remember quite how young and inexperienced they are. We shouldn't really expect them to control the midfield against the likes of Modric and Rakitic, it was never going to happen. That said, Lingard Alli and Sterling as a trio puts too much on Henderson and this showed Wednesday. I think we could have done with Dier in for Lingard and maybe even Loftus Cheek for Alli. That might sound negative and I can see why Southgate stuck but I think he was a bit naive.

Modric / Croatia were clever, they were anonymous first half but took over second. Anyone who had watched our first five games knew we started fast but had a tendency to blow ourselves out, it wasn't rocket science.

However, let's not be too down - we did exceed expectations, part by luck, part by the fact that we do have some decent young players and a progressive manager. We should indeed be hopeful for the future
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« Reply #42 on: July 13, 2018, 09:33:03 am »

England did well to reach the semis with the limitations of the squad.

They need to play a left footed player at wing back. When Croatia pressed Young he didn't have the time to cut back onto his right foot.

I think the formation works well against the lesser teams but we need to develop a plan B as the midfield can be overrun and strikers isolated.

I don't think England will ever produce a Modric type carrier of the ball but we desperately need someone who can connect the midfield and attack. Lingard and Alli are not technically good enough for this.

I just hope that some of these players who have won all these youth tournaments with England get given some game time in the coming years.

The squad will have benefited massively from this experience similar to which the French / Croats have had in previous tournaments so when the chance arises again we know how to manage our way through a game better.
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« Reply #43 on: July 13, 2018, 09:51:12 am »

It has been said that Phil Foden will be our 'special' player in a few years, some have compared him to Gazza even at this early stage.
Hopefully not too much is expected too soon and his potential is allowed to come to fruition naturally.
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« Reply #44 on: July 13, 2018, 11:10:25 am »

It has been said that Phil Foden will be our 'special' player in a few years, some have compared him to Gazza even at this early stage.
Hopefully not too much is expected too soon and his potential is allowed to come to fruition naturally.

Sadly he'll be held back by Man City's ability to buy in foreign talent at will.
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« Reply #45 on: July 13, 2018, 12:17:54 pm »


The twonk who rates Maguire as deficient and an accident waiting to happen must have been watching a different player to me..................................................................


 Grin  - You have a way of putting things in perspective. More please.
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« Reply #46 on: July 13, 2018, 12:23:55 pm »

Sadly he'll be held back by Man City's ability to buy in foreign talent at will.

They have just signed Mahrez from Leicester so he'll likely drop further down the pecking order.

It's good to see a few youngsters going to play abroad like Sancho @ Dortmund. He'll be in the England squad for the next tournament
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« Reply #47 on: July 13, 2018, 12:24:26 pm »

England only really had 1 great chance, which fell to Kane in the 1st half. What about Lingards chance that he put wide?They had 3-4 half-chances over the course of the 90, but then Croatia had a number of very good chances The one they hit the post with and ?and multiple half chances as well. England 2 shots on target to Croatia's 7. Personally I think it's a bit of a stretch to suggest England deserved to win, only testing the keeper once more after the goal in almost 120 minutes of football.

Any examples of the Colombia 'brutality'? If you're thinking of the penalty, on close inspection the ref got it wrong, and the foul should have actually gone against Kane who was all over SanchezI suggest that most people watching it, the VAR people and the ref think YOU have got it wrong. The 'headbutt' on Henderson was provoked by both Henderson and Lingard. Henderson was leaning heavily on the defender who tried to shrug him off. That he caught the underside of Henderson's chin with the top of his head was, IMO, accidental.The Columbian went back with his head and when he realised he was too low he went up for Hendersons chin, accidental my ar*e

I agree with the view that England were fortunate to beat Colombia. England again only 2 shots on target, one of which was the penalty, which on close inspection can be shown to be an erroneous decision. Colombia were missing their best player, who is possibly one of the top 5 creative midfielders in the world. Colombia also were the better team in the 2nd half and were pretty dominant towards the end of the 90, and also for much of ET as well.
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« Reply #48 on: July 13, 2018, 12:55:43 pm »

The twonk who rates Maguire as deficient and an accident waiting to happen must have been watching a different player to me. He, along with Trippier and Pickford were the ones who stood out. I'll even pass over that Pickford should have saved against Belgium and Trippier should have cleared off the line against Colombia - they were that good otherwise.

Really? Quick list:

Was sleeping against Colombia during the 'two-balls-on-pitch' incident, where there wasn't two balls on the pitch and was very lucky (to say the least) the ref pulled back play otherwise Colombia would have been in. Schoolboy lack of concentration.

Totally lost Mina in the box at a corner in ET, resorted to using both hands to shove him slightly off balance as he tried to head the ball. Ref right on the spot, was probably the 1/10 times a ref wouldn't give a penalty.

Lost/was totally out-jumped by Mina for the Colombian equaliser, effectively only 10 minutes or so before the second error mentioned above. Funny how you attribute blame to Trippier, when I would suggest Maguire was much more at fault.

Began to lose Mandzukic in the semi-final at the end of 1st half. Put arm over his shoulder to hold him back, should have been a penalty.

Almost lost his temper against Panama, squaring up forehead-to-forehead with their defender even though England were already winning comfortably, could have easily been an unnecessary card which could have eventually led to a suspension.

These serious errors quickly come to mind, all bar one he was very fortunate to get away without costing a goal.

Hence my opinion that he is an accident waiting to happen. If that makes me a 'twonk' then so be it!
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« Reply #49 on: July 13, 2018, 13:17:23 pm »

Really? Quick list:

Was sleeping against Colombia during the 'two-balls-on-pitch' incident, where there wasn't two balls on the pitch and was very lucky (to say the least) the ref pulled back play otherwise Colombia would have been in. Schoolboy lack of concentration.

Totally lost Mina in the box at a corner in ET, resorted to using both hands to shove him slightly off balance as he tried to head the ball. Ref right on the spot, was probably the 1/10 times a ref wouldn't give a penalty.

Lost/was totally out-jumped by Mina for the Colombian equaliser, effectively only 10 minutes or so before the second error mentioned above. Funny how you attribute blame to Trippier, when I would suggest Maguire was much more at fault.

Began to lose Mandzukic in the semi-final at the end of 1st half. Put arm over his shoulder to hold him back, should have been a penalty.

Almost lost his temper against Panama, squaring up forehead-to-forehead with their defender even though England were already winning comfortably, could have easily been an unnecessary card which could have eventually led to a suspension.

These serious errors quickly come to mind, all bar one he was very fortunate to get away without costing a goal.

Hence my opinion that he is an accident waiting to happen. If that makes me a 'twonk' then so be it!

I agree re the Colombia equaliser, otherwise though I think you're being pretty harsh.

For the 'two ball' incident, I'd argue Young should have greater awareness and not take the throw. Either way, this was a fairly unique scenario - even the lino was completely distracted - not really a proper basis to judge a player.

The rest of your examples are all fouls/disciplinary issues which, of course, we will all see differently. I'd note though that VAR will have reviewed and could have called the ref back to reconsider either of your 'clear' penalties. It doesn't mean you're wrong but does mean the referee and four VAR officials all disagree with you, as do I.

Going into the tournament I saw Maguire as the standout weak link in that defence, but I am willing to admit I was completely wrong. At times he was a colossus in the air and his ability to stay calm and carry or pass when others would have hoofed clear was, for me, very impressive.
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« Reply #50 on: July 13, 2018, 14:43:26 pm »

Really? Quick list:

Was sleeping against Colombia during the 'two-balls-on-pitch' incident, where there wasn't two balls on the pitch and was very lucky (to say the least) the ref pulled back play otherwise Colombia would have been in. Schoolboy lack of concentration.

Even if the ref hadn't pulled back, no guarantee they would have scored. You can't really criticise on "what might have been"

Totally lost Mina in the box at a corner in ET, resorted to using both hands to shove him slightly off balance as he tried to head the ball. Ref right on the spot, was probably the 1/10 times a ref wouldn't give a penalty.

Ref didn't blow so no foul, no harm. Again, your opinion based on what might have been

Lost/was totally out-jumped by Mina for the Colombian equaliser, effectively only 10 minutes or so before the second error mentioned above. Funny how you attribute blame to Trippier, when I would suggest Maguire was much more at fault.

If you expect a defender to pick up his player every time throughout his career you have a problem around managing your expectations. If this was actually doable, you'd never see a goal from a corner. Ever. You can argue that a forward should always have the advantage on a defender at set plays. They probably do given the majority of holding you see is defender on attacker. I think that says it all around who holds the upper hand. As for the Trippier thing, if he'd stood up the ball would have hit him in the throat. He ducked under it to try and go up on the ball and lift it over the bar. He was too close to the goal line to do that but last minute, 1-0 up, I can understand how he lost his bearings...

Began to lose Mandzukic in the semi-final at the end of 1st half. Put arm over his shoulder to hold him back, should have been a penalty.

Just another opinion. I'm sure the VAR team are better placed and better qualified than you. Not sure they even whispered in the refs ear?

Almost lost his temper against Panama, squaring up forehead-to-forehead with their defender even though England were already winning comfortably, could have easily been an unnecessary card which could have eventually led to a suspension.

Given the provocation of a very niggly opposition, you could actually change "almost lost his temper" to "did well to control his temper" but given you're clearly on a Maguire witchhunt, I can see how you choose the former. Again, never even got a yellow so your "potential" red seems a bit OTT

These serious errors quickly come to mind, all bar one he was very fortunate to get away without costing a goal.

Hence my opinion that he is an accident waiting to happen. If that makes me a 'twonk' then so be it!

Yep, they make you a twonk. Be happy in your skin....
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« Reply #51 on: July 13, 2018, 14:49:32 pm »

Really? Quick list:

Was sleeping against Colombia during the 'two-balls-on-pitch' incident, where there wasn't two balls on the pitch and was very lucky (to say the least) the ref pulled back play otherwise Colombia would have been in. Schoolboy lack of concentration.

Totally lost Mina in the box at a corner in ET, resorted to using both hands to shove him slightly off balance as he tried to head the ball. Ref right on the spot, was probably the 1/10 times a ref wouldn't give a penalty.

Lost/was totally out-jumped by Mina for the Colombian equaliser, effectively only 10 minutes or so before the second error mentioned above. Funny how you attribute blame to Trippier, when I would suggest Maguire was much more at fault.

Began to lose Mandzukic in the semi-final at the end of 1st half. Put arm over his shoulder to hold him back, should have been a penalty.

Almost lost his temper against Panama, squaring up forehead-to-forehead with their defender even though England were already winning comfortably, could have easily been an unnecessary card which could have eventually led to a suspension.

These serious errors quickly come to mind, all bar one he was very fortunate to get away without costing a goal.

Hence my opinion that he is an accident waiting to happen. If that makes me a 'twonk' then so be it!

We are but armchair critics and your forthright views often grates against better informed view points - that is those who were there including reporters.. You have made your point so it might be a good idea to simpy ignore your critics and do as you say concentrate on the Cobblers.... mind you God help us Cool
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« Reply #52 on: July 13, 2018, 14:53:45 pm »

They have just signed Mahrez from Leicester so he'll likely drop further down the pecking order.

It's good to see a few youngsters going to play abroad like Sancho @ Dortmund. He'll be in the England squad for the next tournament

I get your point but Mahrez is a winger and Foden is a CM. He made 10 appearances for them last year at just 17; I think he will break into their first team much more next season. Maybe too early for an England call up but postentially a star for Man City and England by the next world cup (maybe even the Euros).
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« Reply #53 on: July 13, 2018, 16:12:34 pm »

'England only really had 1 great chance, which fell to Kane in the 1st half. They had 3-4 half-chances over the course of the 90'

What about Lingards chance that he put wide? - That was one of the half-chances I referred to, outside the box, defenders in the way. Rebic I think it was had similar in the 1st, put it straight at the keeper.

but then Croatia had a number of very good chances and multiple half chances as well. England 2 shots on target to Croatia's 7. Personally I think it's a bit of a stretch to suggest England deserved to win, only testing the keeper once more after the goal in almost 120 minutes of football.

The one they hit the post with and ? - The goal, the one that hit the post, Mandzukic chance at 1-1 where he half-volleyed it at the keeper and should have done better, the Pickford save with his leg in ET. That's 4 great chances in open play. Numerous 'half-chances' too.

'I suggest that most people watching it, the VAR people and the ref think YOU have got it wrong.' VAR didn't call red for the Barrios incident. Most seem to think the VAR got that wrong.

The Columbian went back with his head and when he realised he was too low he went up for Henderson's chin, accidental my ar*e
Flat out wrong. Lingard and Henderson were deliberately provoking Barrios, Henderson leaned strongly into Barrios and Barrios just shrugged him off of in return, Henderson made a meal of it. The catch on the bottom of Henderson's chin was unintended and incidental contact in the motion of shrugging Henderson off of him. Watch the whole incident in normal time to see what really happened.
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« Reply #54 on: July 13, 2018, 16:21:21 pm »

Yep, they make you a twonk. Be happy in your skin....

I made one short statement of my opinion that Maguire was an accident waiting to happen. You resorted to insults, so I gave an explanation citing examples for why I held my opinion. It's not a 'witch-hunt'. You're also resorting to insults again. Poor form.
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« Reply #55 on: July 13, 2018, 16:31:25 pm »

We are but armchair critics and your forthright views often grates against better informed view points - that is those who were there including reporters.. You have made your point so it might be a good idea to simpy ignore your critics and do as you say concentrate on the Cobblers.... mind you God help us Cool

Better informed viewpoints, such as? The English media? They're mostly following a party line, possibly because the tournament's in Russia and with the political situation they want to be overly positive. The commentator on ITV was nauseating during England games for example. The commentary never used to be as biased as it is now.

Here's one well-informed viewpoint which is a good general overview:




Oh, and I've been quite positive about Cobblers chances this season, certainly more than some, as you can tell by looking at my posts!
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« Reply #56 on: July 13, 2018, 18:48:26 pm »

I get your point but Mahrez is a winger and Foden is a CM. He made 10 appearances for them last year at just 17; I think he will break into their first team much more next season. Maybe too early for an England call up but postentially a star for Man City and England by the next world cup (maybe even the Euros).
The Daily Mail this morning, reported that Foden was invited along with the squad, to gain experience. Clearly, he is rated very highly.
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« Reply #57 on: July 13, 2018, 19:33:27 pm »

Overall, I enjoyed the tournament. Yes we were lacking in certain areas, but Southgate can only work with what he has at his disposal.
But, under 17s world champions 2017, under 20s world champions 2017, suggests that St Georges Park, may be starting to justify its expense. The kids are nearly ready, and Southgate aint afraid to use them.
I watched the Columbia game, in a boozer in Croydon. Afterwards, at East Croydon station waiting for my train, the place filled up with people coming out of Boxpark. Every single one of them was soaked to the skin in beer. They looked they been swimming in it. But, they were ecstatic.
I doubt that I would witnessed the same euphoria after the South Africa, or Brazil debacles.
We have something to look forward to, in the near future.
I think that this is the Croatia game, but you get the picture.
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« Reply #58 on: July 14, 2018, 00:20:50 am »

3rd Place is coming home!!!!
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« Reply #59 on: July 14, 2018, 03:10:20 am »

Unless they defect, they will all be coming home!

Just nice to see that England are now only 4 years behind the rest of the world in terms of tactics, instead of 4 light years.

Nice to see an England manager sticking to their guns, even though the opposition have changed game plan mid-game.

Nice to see England players collapsing with fatigue against a team that has just played their 3rd 120 minute game in a week.

Nice to see a totally inept England midfield.

Nice to see England firing blanks.

Nice to see England forgetting to attack the ball when defending.

Nice to see England in the semis on merit.

Nice to see England in the 3rd place play-offs.

Nice to see our captain accept the "Golden Boot" with his arse-cheeks.

Nice to see that England players can play a 20 yard pass deep inside their own half when no opposition player is on the pitch.

Nice to see that being an England midfield player involves keeping possession of the ball for less than 3 micro-seconds in a World Cup semi.

Nice to see that niceness over-rules ineptitude.

Nice to see you, to see you, nice!



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