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Fans take over

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Battery Man
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« Reply #40 on: September 25, 2018, 14:46:47 pm »

So the fans don't have to work out how to raise funds until they have taken over the club ? That doesn't sound a very attractive or secure proposition.
Would that be a good idea for KT to sell to anybody, who can just come up with funding ideas after they have purchased the Club?
All that's happening there, is that you are confirming why fans shouldn't own Football Clubs.

No what I said was they don't need to know exact figures for how much the stadium rebuild would be, they could take that under advisement when they are going down the route of taking over. A fan ownership would not be something that would fix all thats wrong with the club overnight it would be a work in progress.
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« Reply #41 on: September 25, 2018, 15:41:27 pm »

A fan-owned club would have never come up with that design. A fan-owned entity would have probably come up with a far simpler design incorporating boxes. Or they would have questioned whether boxes are actually worth doing. As for funding there are various routes including sponsorship, grants, fan-funding including mini-bonds and also a straightforward loan. All of these things Thomas and Bower would have to consider unless you expect them to gift the money which is insane.

Familiarise yourself with Tifosy it really would be invaluable to you. https://www.tifosy.com/en

There is nothing that fan-ownership or a combination with local business can't achieve that private ownership can. Your viewpoint is outdated.

I love your faith in fan ownership and whole belief regarding how football should be but have to say find your funding viewpoint always very simplistic and unrealistic.  You've trotted out Tifosy as the solution to infrastructure funding on tens if not hundreds of occasions on various platforms but I'm struggling to understand why you believe in it so strongly.  There is actually a lot not to like about it from a true supporters perspective.

It's a funding scheme that relies heavily on an emotional investment by supporters.  Completely unsecured and relatively high risk.  Most if not all clubs that have gone down this route have done so as they have exhausted all other funding options.  What happens when a club can't repay the investment at the end of the term?  How to p*ss off your support base by turning them in to creditors that get paid pennies in the pound.

You also have to be in a position to prove your business case before you make any borrowing anyway.  Suggesting somehow a supporter owned club is somehow in a similar or better position than one privately owned to find funding is just pie in the sky.

It will be interesting to see how Norwichs scheme pans out if they fail to reach the Prem in the next 5 years.....though they have probably got away with it by selling Maddison.  But Is that a wise business plan?

I actually don't mind the idea of fan ownership but all fans would have to accept what this really means.  A club run well within its means with very minor progression on and off the field.  Some will be happy with that but most if the people unhappy with KT for the lack of progress will have a field day with fan ownership when the reality kicks in.
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« Reply #42 on: September 25, 2018, 17:08:43 pm »

I love your faith in fan ownership and whole belief regarding how football should be but have to say find your funding viewpoint always very simplistic and unrealistic.  You've trotted out Tifosy as the solution to infrastructure funding on tens if not hundreds of occasions on various platforms but I'm struggling to understand why you believe in it so strongly.  There is actually a lot not to like about it from a true supporters perspective.

It's a funding scheme that relies heavily on an emotional investment by supporters.  Completely unsecured and relatively high risk.  Most if not all clubs that have gone down this route have done so as they have exhausted all other funding options.  What happens when a club can't repay the investment at the end of the term?  How to p*ss off your support base by turning them in to creditors that get paid pennies in the pound.

You also have to be in a position to prove your business case before you make any borrowing anyway.  Suggesting somehow a supporter owned club is somehow in a similar or better position than one privately owned to find funding is just pie in the sky.

It will be interesting to see how Norwichs scheme pans out if they fail to reach the Prem in the next 5 years.....though they have probably got away with it by selling Maddison.  But Is that a wise business plan?

I actually don't mind the idea of fan ownership but all fans would have to accept what this really means.  A club run well within its means with very minor progression on and off the field.  Some will be happy with that but most if the people unhappy with KT for the lack of progress will have a field day with fan ownership when the reality kicks in.

Another good post MCH - you should be on here more often. Its really hard work batting off the negative ones and their minions!
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« Reply #43 on: September 25, 2018, 17:15:48 pm »

For over 20 years we have gone backwards due to playing 2nd fiddle to land deals and free council hand outs, this at a time when football is at its most popular so our potential fan base have never been required in the grand scheme, just average a very loyal regular 5000 in league 2 in a little ground while land deals are done.
Our vast potential fan base need to be sold onto a progressive and forward thinking club that has a working plan that it sticks to and shows year on year improvement in every department and one that doesn't involve raping the council.
For tcobb to suggest a club with a catchment of 300,000 could never achieve more than 4000 season ticket holders remaining unable to compete outside league 2 is  quite shocking.
Once the club get the right people involved who are happy to work with and welcome the whole town, county and supporters of Northampton town to a much more professional outfit, we will soon realise we have wasted the last 20 years.

Thomas said the east stand would cost  £4,000,000 to fit out, which quite frankly is absurd, Barton said £1m and that is nearer the mark which would not only pay for itself in 3 short seasons it would give the ground a face lift in which to attract new fans and force ground expansion.
A Fan run club with local corporate backing or local owners who have the wholehearted support of the fans is what this club needs.
London based would be property developers need not apply.


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« Reply #44 on: September 25, 2018, 17:33:27 pm »

You talk from the heart Beds, nothing wrong with that.
But, please, where exactly will the money come from to fit out the East Stand, buy new players, fund the upcoming season and, if one is ask, where will the money come from to purchase the Club, unless everybody thinks they can get it for £1.
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« Reply #45 on: September 25, 2018, 17:38:50 pm »

I love your faith in fan ownership and whole belief regarding how football should be but have to say find your funding viewpoint always very simplistic and unrealistic.  You've trotted out Tifosy as the solution to infrastructure funding on tens if not hundreds of occasions on various platforms but I'm struggling to understand why you believe in it so strongly.  There is actually a lot not to like about it from a true supporters perspective.

It's a funding scheme that relies heavily on an emotional investment by supporters.  Completely unsecured and relatively high risk.  Most if not all clubs that have gone down this route have done so as they have exhausted all other funding options.  What happens when a club can't repay the investment at the end of the term?  How to p*ss off your support base by turning them in to creditors that get paid pennies in the pound.

You also have to be in a position to prove your business case before you make any borrowing anyway.  Suggesting somehow a supporter owned club is somehow in a similar or better position than one privately owned to find funding is just pie in the sky.

It will be interesting to see how Norwichs scheme pans out if they fail to reach the Prem in the next 5 years.....though they have probably got away with it by selling Maddison.  But Is that a wise business plan?

I actually don't mind the idea of fan ownership but all fans would have to accept what this really means.  A club run well within its means with very minor progression on and off the field.  Some will be happy with that but most if the people unhappy with KT for the lack of progress will have a field day with fan ownership when the reality kicks in.

Good few paragraphs of hot air there. I've mentioned Tifosy as one of many options to improve infrastructure. Quote a successful one actually. Not an emotional investment but cold hard cash (5-8% interest). Stevenage Borough completed their stand using mini-bonds. Have a look at all the success stories from Pompey to Italy. You can, of course, use that option in combination with sponsorship and grants etc. Why would you be so closed off to an idea and put so much faith into men in suits given our history?

We are literally staring at a shell of a stand from pathetic trust in private 'finance' and yet you talk down the proven fan led option. Where are the questions about how Bower and Thomas will finish the East? Or are they gonna gift it to the club via magic beans?

Since when has a well run club within its means become a slur? Let's not forget this board represents a tiny fraction of the overall fanbase. I am sure the fanbase as a whole would consider a properly presented fan led bid for the club.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2018, 17:42:51 pm by meccanostand » Report Spam   Logged
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« Reply #46 on: September 25, 2018, 17:40:48 pm »

You talk from the heart Beds, nothing wrong with that.
But, please, where exactly will the money come from to fit out the East Stand, buy new players, fund the upcoming season and, if one is ask, where will the money come from to purchase the Club, unless everybody thinks they can get it for £1.

De Stefano offered a pound for the club, Thomas paid a pound according to Cardoza. Bit of a theme developing here....
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« Reply #47 on: September 25, 2018, 18:03:15 pm »

Ah, good old fashioned assumptions.
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« Reply #48 on: September 25, 2018, 18:15:34 pm »

You talk from the heart Beds, nothing wrong with that.
But, please, where exactly will the money come from to fit out the East Stand, buy new players, fund the upcoming season and, if one is ask, where will the money come from to purchase the Club, unless everybody thinks they can get it for £1.
Ask Accrington stanley or exeter or Peterborough who all built stands recently.
The land at the back of the east stand couldve been used as collateral to build up both East and the South stand expansion in readiness for our return to the league 1 and being free from the developers we would be in a much better place to kick on, I suspect that doesn't belong to ntfc anymore.
We have 3 youngsters that will soon attract bids £1m, sell them and use some the money to improve the infrastructure which will generate income to kick on.
Sell the boxes of the proposed east stand  to 12 local businesses for 3 year leases on good deals... Stand built.
Sell 5 year season tickets at great value to expand the south stand and encourage new supporters to take up the short fall in a much better professional looking stadium ... Ive just finished the east stand and expanded the south stand not with my heart but head..
Its really very easy if you dont have land grabbers holding us back for their own agendas.
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« Reply #49 on: September 25, 2018, 18:37:23 pm »

We have 3 youngsters that will soon attract bids £1m, sell them and use some the money to improve the infrastructure which will generate income to kick on.
We consistently, have undersold our assets. And I dont think that this is about to change in the near future. I would imagine that Mr Bowers would be keen to recoup his January spending spree, via a quick sale. Buy one, get one free.
Anyway, who are the three, that you value so highly?


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« Reply #50 on: September 25, 2018, 18:43:51 pm »

Beds you really haven't mate. You still have not come up with the money to complete the East Stand. Where, if the Club is fan owned, will You get the £1m to complete the Stand ?
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« Reply #51 on: September 25, 2018, 18:46:54 pm »

If we were serious about Fan ownership we should see what sort of numbers fans would be interested in the idea, and also if the trust would be behind it. If it is just a few people on here that want to go down the fan ownership route then it is a bit of a non starter.
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« Reply #52 on: September 25, 2018, 20:03:27 pm »

Good few paragraphs of hot air there. I've mentioned Tifosy as one of many options to improve infrastructure. Quote a successful one actually. Not an emotional investment but cold hard cash (5-8% interest). Stevenage Borough completed their stand using mini-bonds. Have a look at all the success stories from Pompey to Italy. You can, of course, use that option in combination with sponsorship and grants etc. Why would you be so closed off to an idea and put so much faith into men in suits given our history?

We are literally staring at a shell of a stand from pathetic trust in private 'finance' and yet you talk down the proven fan led option. Where are the questions about how Bower and Thomas will finish the East? Or are they gonna gift it to the club via magic beans?

Since when has a well run club within its means become a slur? Let's not forget this board represents a tiny fraction of the overall fanbase. I am sure the fanbase as a whole would consider a properly presented fan led bid for the club.

Ok you can dismiss this as more hot air if that makes you feel better but I'd have expected better from someone with your journalistic background.

For starters the Stevenage example can only be deemed a success when all investors have been paid all interest and capital on time and in full.  I'm not saying this won't happen as they seem to have good owners but lets wait and see what happens if they run in to financial troubles or god forbid get relegated.  Same with Norwich.

It's like you've just read the Tifosy website and clicked on their links.  Go and read about mini bonds in general and maybe you will understand why they are so high risk and that maybe clubs are playing with fire by offering them to fans.  Calling it a fan led option is exactly what someone would say that's bought in to the hype and not read the small print.

Next, not an emotional investment?  How many mini bonds do you reckon those Norwich/Stevenage fans have invested in before this one?  Nothing wrong if they've read the small print, taken financial advice and accepted the risk but I guarantee I could introduce you to a financial advisor tomorrow that within ten minutes would tell you why you shouldn't invest and offer tens of different alternatives with as good return and much less risk.

Finally on Tifosy and mini bonds.  I nearly spat my drink out when you mention putting faith in "men in suits".  Norwich and Stevenage fans have done just that.  Who do you think pays them back at the end of the investment?  Who have they put their trust in that this scheme will work?  If the club are unable to pay you back at the end of the term or for whatever reason went in to administration during the term you'd get sweet FA as you are an unsecured lender essentially sitting at the back end of a very long queue.

Oh and also ask yourself why the clubs went down the more expensive mini bond route than simply borrowing from Barclays Bank?

Of course this is worse case scenario and some will work but it's certainly not the fan led utopia of crowd funding you seem to try and sell it as.  20 years in financial services tell me that 5-8% is pitiful for this high a risk investment.

As for well run club being a slur...I'm just suggesting people will need to accept the reality of what that means in the long term.  If people accept that not having a benefactor who covers losses when things go pear shaped and all that entails then that's fine.  I'm sure some will be happy because that's all they want but there will be a lot that will have to give up on grander dreams.   
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« Reply #53 on: September 25, 2018, 20:10:24 pm »

Beds you really haven't mate. You still have not come up with the money to complete the East Stand. Where, if the Club is fan owned, will You get the £1m to complete the Stand ?
Im not fussed if its fan owned or owners who are in it for the long term that work very closely with the clubs supporters to achieve growth as thats  just as good.
Ive given you 3 ways to generate income by giving good value to those who subscribe.. what do you want me to do, draw you a picture?
The only reason these simple to execute schemes have never seen the light of day are because our owners these past 20 years couldnt be arsed because it isnt why they came here.
We need to dismiss all the years of belittling and  start thinking in a we can do so much more attitude.

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« Reply #54 on: September 25, 2018, 20:25:06 pm »

Anyway, who are the three, that you value so highly?
As your still logged in, then you can do me the courtesy of answering my question.  Smiley



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« Reply #55 on: September 25, 2018, 20:35:53 pm »

Beds, your thinking is flawed, even at an unrealistic £20,000 per season per box, take away the cost of running the boxes, staff etc. You could make £500,000 profit over 3 years, not enough to build them in the first place. So yes paint that picture.  Your colouring by numbers doesn't work.
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« Reply #56 on: September 25, 2018, 21:42:12 pm »

There is talk on here regarding business plans and balance sheets being insufficient to borrow against. This has been countered with much talk of self funded development? Assuming that was even possible, leaving aside how long that would realistically take, the main issue with that would be getting a contractor to take on the contract. Next time around a company like Buckinghams is going to need some very rigorous guarantees underwritten before they stick a spade in the ground, that I can promise you. In fact given the financial performance of the club prior to KT, I don’t believe there would have been a cat in hells chance of getting Buckinghams onboard without the council last time around. The first 2 questions on a project of that nature are not what’s the design and when do you want it, as some relentlessly bang on about? The questions are what’s the budget and most importantly are you good for the money, that’s a fact. No company worth it’s salt is going to chuck resource even at a tender process let alone anything else based on bu11sh1t, trust me.
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« Reply #57 on: September 25, 2018, 21:56:08 pm »

We consistently, have undersold our assets. And I dont think that this is about to change in the near future. I would imagine that Mr Bowers would be keen to recoup his January spending spree, via a quick sale. Buy one, get one free.
Anyway, who are the three, that you value so highly?



  Er, bit irrelevant because it appears that the tax bill on making a million in profit on the sale has been overlooked in the calculation? I’m shocked, the financial planning on here is usually so thorough?
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« Reply #58 on: September 26, 2018, 05:28:27 am »

As your still logged in, then you can do me the courtesy of answering my question.  Smiley


I think one of them must be Kasim. We aren't playing him in case he gets injured and scuppers the deal.  Grin
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« Reply #59 on: September 26, 2018, 06:39:34 am »

Beds, your thinking is flawed, even at an unrealistic £20,000 per season per box, take away the cost of running the boxes, staff etc. You could make £500,000 profit over 3 years, not enough to build them in the first place. So yes paint that picture.  Your colouring by numbers doesn't work.
E0ven if we sold the 12 boxes at great discount giving takers a brilliant deal for a 10 year period making extra income from massively improved food, drink and attendance revenues in order to make it happen, would be preferable to do what we are good at..Nothing.
We could then start to look at increasing capacity at other ends of the ground to attract more support and be able to challenge outside L2.
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