Trust Making Bid for Fan Ownership?

[guest170]

Are you going to reply to my question then Beds? Seeing as I had the good manners to reply to yours.

The money generated from thousands of fans flocking back to fan owned club and the millions extra that local businesses will pump into the club knowing its a local club for local people.

[Zen Master]

How does this scenario sound?

He attempted to sell the club but was unsuccessful but instead gave the club, the land and a sizeable chunk of money to the Supporters Trust.

[BedsCobb]

Are you going to reply to my question then Beds? Seeing as I had the good manners to reply to yours.

The question you ask has been answered dozens of times already in the 4 pages of this thread.
Firstly ignore all the scaremongering as to what would happen should the speculators walk away, we are not kept afloat by them but by our small band of 5000 regulars, local buisneses through  sponsorship and sky/ league monies.
The club isnt worth multi millions having such decrepit infrastructure, it has no sellable assets left, so the only good point is a vast untapped 300,000 catchment, a brilliant central location with good access from most places, a wealth of large businesses on our doorstep.
All of which ignored over the nearly 20 years that NTFC just become a means to get land deals and the club was just kept ticking over by our small band of loyal followers.
The present owners took control by claiming to the council and clubs fans they would 'finish the east stand with £3 to 4m they have available, but that hasn't materialised but they have secured vast swathes of the land that Sixfields stands on, so we can now rightly assume we will not be seeing any redev from
KT and co, so it's only fair for them to cash in on the land and allow the club to freely move on and regroup under the stewardship of a group, working with the entire community who all want only the very best for the football  club of Northampton.
This is the fairest outcome all things considered, and how I see it playing out.

[meccanostand]

So, either of you want to resond to the actual question ?  If the Football Club requires a cash injection, eg, inland revenue bill, new players, new East Stand, how will a community run club raise the money.

Why would a well run club face an out of the ordinary Inland Revenue bill? A fan-owned club would build a rainy day surplus like any any other. Players and everything else would come out of a proper budget. This idea of 'cash injections' is a myth trotted out by opponents of fan-ownership based on zilch.

People as fixed on the business model and no wasteful expenditure as Bower and Thomas will be putting in little in the way of 'cash injections'.

[tcobb]

So, Beds you still haven't replied to the question, maybe Meccano can help.
I'll try to narrow it down for you both. Where will a community owned club get approx £3m to finish the building of the East Stand ?

[guest48]

So, Beds you still haven't replied to the question, maybe Meccano can help.
I'll try to narrow it down for you both. Where will a community owned club get approx £3m to finish the building of the East Stand ?

Do you really think it would take £3M to just finish the East Stand? I think it could be "finished" to a reasonable stand for £1M but that wouldn't involve Buckinghams and I think they might be part of the problem. Do you think KT is going to spend £3M on finishing the East? If NBC have any balls, they should refuse any planning permission on the CDNL land until the East is finished, I think that's the only thing that may persuade  KT to complete the East.

[BackOfTheNet]

Do you really think it would take £3M to just finish the East Stand? I think it could be "finished" to a reasonable stand for £1M but that wouldn't involve Buckinghams and I think they might be part of the problem. Do you think KT is going to spend £3M on finishing the East? If NBC have any balls, they should refuse any planning permission on the CDNL land until the East is finished, I think that's the only thing that may persuade  KT to complete the East.

In that case, let me rephrase tcobbs question for him:

Where will a community owned club get approx £1m to finish the building of the East Stand ?

[tcobb]

Thank you " Back of the net" I've tried to make it as simple as possible for them.
I'm not a supporter of KT any more, he said he would under promise and over deliver.
All he has has managed so far is to under deliver.
But those who put forward the idea of fan ownership need to put some figures on the table.
Meccano seems to live in a land full of white clouds and cukoos, Where the owners of clubs never need to put cash in. Everybody else just comes up with how it shouldn't be done without giving any details on how they would.

[DrillingCobbler]

Some good points raised here.

Firstly, budgeting. This is my biggest and most single concern for a fully Trust run club. Budget low, the team put out is most likely going to struggle, gates fall, sponsors pull out etc. Financial issues then come up. Budget high, its a g@mble that may or may not pay off. It didn't for us last season and KT's backer/s I assume are now paying the price of that.

Secondly, when the team struggles. This is generally when a club will struggle financially. So its all dependent on results on the pitch.

At times, DC (and KT) have clearly propped things up. Covered short term losses etc. Using Rushden and Diamonds as an example (thanks Zen Master!), their board were not willing to put their homes on the line and sold out. They didn't have a money person at the helm at all.

For a Trust run club to be successful over a sustained period of time, no body will convince me that a money man/woman with cash on the hip (to burn) isn't needed. No body. Continuation budgets in football, forget them. Many football clubs have at times nearly gone bust, most have ultimately been saved by a knight in shining armour.

My preference, without really looking into the nitty gritty of the detail, would be a part owned Fans club. With influence. How that can be achieved, I do not know and thats what we need to properly find out. The Trust is getting excellent advice on this, and this debate is a good debate to have.

[BackOfTheNet]

My worry on all this (thankfully) hypothetical debate is that without the safety net of a wealthy set of backers, there are certain things that become luxuries as stability/survival would become key and the cloth would have to be cut accordingly.

Where would this leave unprofitable but positive aspects of the club - football in the community, ladies and girls teams, junior teams, disability teams... I'm sure the trust would say they would all be kept but should things start to look tight I'd suggest they'd all be candidates for the chop.

I'm also unconvinced by the "we'd still employ a chief executive so things would be the same" argument. The clue is in the name as to the role of a football club's chief executive; to execute the strategic vision and plans of the owners. With all due respect to the trust, I've yet to see a single person associated with the trust who displays the sort of strategic thinking required. I'm equally unconvinced that a fan owned club would suddenly see the hordes of this type of dynamic individuals coming out of the woodwork and clamouring to join the trust either.

Sorry, as I've said before, it's a pretty dream, but not one I'd care to see become reality.

[guest170]

The question you ask has been answered dozens of times already in the 4 pages of this thread.
Firstly ignore all the scaremongering as to what would happen should the speculators walk away, we are not kept afloat by them but by our small band of 5000 regulars, local buisneses through  sponsorship and sky/ league monies.
The club isnt worth multi millions having such decrepit infrastructure, it has no sellable assets left, so the only good point is a vast untapped 300,000 catchment, a brilliant central location with good access from most places, a wealth of large businesses on our doorstep.
All of which ignored over the nearly 20 years that NTFC just become a means to get land deals and the club was just kept ticking over by our small band of loyal followers.
The present owners took control by claiming to the council and clubs fans they would 'finish the east stand with £3 to 4m they have available, but that hasn't materialised but they have secured vast swathes of the land that Sixfields stands on, so we can now rightly assume we will not be seeing any redev from
KT and co, so it's only fair for them to cash in on the land and allow the club to freely move on and regroup under the stewardship of a group, working with the entire community who all want only the very best for the football  club of Northampton.
This is the fairest outcome all things considered, and how I see it playing out.

Could you 'quote' one such answer for me please as ive not seen one yet.
Hopefully we will never be in the position we had with the inland revenue but what about buying managers out, changes in regulations that require new flood lights (as example), infrastructure costs if / when VAR makes its way to the lower leagues, changes in fire regulations, subsidence issues, etc etc etc. There will always be things that come out of the blue that need funding the same as when your car breaks down etc. Where will that money come from?
Where will the money come from to buy that extra special player, to improve the stadium, to improve training facilities, to improve the hospitality and bar areas, everything to drive us forward as a club and not just maintain where we are.

I would love for the fans to have more involvement but 100% fan ownership worries me. Meccano (i think) raised some interesting proposals on shared ownership a while back on the other page, but I struggle to understand why a businessman would give over half the share of their business. The only way I can see it happening is with the likes of David Jackson, Barry Stonhill etc

[guest3114]

Does anyone on here know anybody who runs a multi million pound business then?

[tcobb]

I know some people who own their own business, some ranging from turnovers of a thousands to turn overs of millions, what does that have to do with fan ownership ??

[guest3114]

I know some people who own their own business, some ranging from turnovers of a thousands to turn overs of millions, what does that have to do with fan ownership ??

Just wondered if anyone had the conversation about investment? There seems to be a consensus of opinion that businesses would be keen to get involved? There’s plenty of assumption, just thought it might be an idea to get some facts?

[BedsCobb]

Thank you " Back of the net" I've tried to make it as simple as possible for them.
I'm not a supporter of KT any more, he said he would under promise and over deliver.
All he has has managed so far is to under deliver.
But those who put forward the idea of fan ownership need to put some figures on the table.
Meccano seems to live in a land full of white clouds and cukoos, Where the owners of clubs never need to put cash in. Everybody else just comes up with how it shouldn't be done without giving any details on how they would.

Months before we actully sold the naming rights for Joe bunny  I suggested we sell the ground naming rights for 10 years for £1 million plus and use it to fit out the east. The most simple and logical solutions are completely  lost on our club.

[meccanostand]

My worry on all this (thankfully) hypothetical debate is that without the safety net of a wealthy set of backers, there are certain things that become luxuries as stability/survival would become key and the cloth would have to be cut accordingly.

Where would this leave unprofitable but positive aspects of the club - football in the community, ladies and girls teams, junior teams, disability teams... I'm sure the trust would say they would all be kept but should things start to look tight I'd suggest they'd all be candidates for the chop.

I'm also unconvinced by the "we'd still employ a chief executive so things would be the same" argument. The clue is in the name as to the role of a football club's chief executive; to execute the strategic vision and plans of the owners. With all due respect to the trust, I've yet to see a single person associated with the trust who displays the sort of strategic thinking required. I'm equally unconvinced that a fan owned club would suddenly see the hordes of this type of dynamic individuals coming out of the woodwork and clamouring to join the trust either.

Sorry, as I've said before, it's a pretty dream, but not one I'd care to see become reality.

You're coming at it from the angle that Bower is gifting the club money or paying for things with magic beans which is laughable. Any private or community owned business has to build resilience and manage its cash flow.

There are members of the fan base in far more senior positions than Kelvin is in his business life away from football. Of course more dynamic people would get involved if they had something to get involved with.

[meccanostand]

Months before we actully sold the naming rights for Joe bunny  I suggested we sell the ground naming rights for 10 years for £1 million plus and use it to fit out the east. The most simple and logical solutions are completely  lost on our club.

Have no idea why a party looking to sell the club would sell the naming rights to the stadium for 5 years to a small fish company when those naming rights may be attractive to a buyer.

[meccanostand]

Some good points raised here.

Firstly, budgeting. This is my biggest and most single concern for a fully Trust run club. Budget low, the team put out is most likely going to struggle, gates fall, sponsors pull out etc. Financial issues then come up. Budget high, its a g@mble that may or may not pay off. It didn't for us last season and KT's backer/s I assume are now paying the price of that.

Secondly, when the team struggles. This is generally when a club will struggle financially. So its all dependent on results on the pitch.

At times, DC (and KT) have clearly propped things up. Covered short term losses etc. Using Rushden and Diamonds as an example (thanks Zen Master!), their board were not willing to put their homes on the line and sold out. They didn't have a money person at the helm at all.

For a Trust run club to be successful over a sustained period of time, no body will convince me that a money man/woman with cash on the hip (to burn) isn't needed. No body. Continuation budgets in football, forget them. Many football clubs have at times nearly gone bust, most have ultimately been saved by a knight in shining armour.

My preference, without really looking into the nitty gritty of the detail, would be a part owned Fans club. With influence. How that can be achieved, I do not know and thats what we need to properly find out. The Trust is getting excellent advice on this, and this debate is a good debate to have.

Some fair points Shane but Wycombe are actually probably a smaller club than us with a smaller catchment area. If they can do it and in a higher league then so can we. Again untill a proper business plan is produced we don't have much to go on.

What's clear is that the private model has had plenty of time to produce the goods and it hasn't done so it seems. No buyers worth their salt and no public movement on the East Stand or any other infrastructure.

[Shoemaker]

Do you really think it would take £3M to just finish the East Stand? I think it could be "finished" to a reasonable stand for £1M but that wouldn't involve Buckinghams and I think they might be part of the problem. Do you think KT is going to spend £3M on finishing the East? If NBC have any balls, they should refuse any planning permission on the CDNL land until the East is finished, I think that's the only thing that may persuade  KT to complete the East.

Good point Barton

[Zen Master]

I’d be fairly certain that annoying the council over not delivering yet on a not legally binding MOU doesn’t amount to a basis of refusing planning permission.
 Given the current flux and inevitable restructuring in local government for the whole county can you realistically see the council taking on a legal battle with no clear basis?