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Trust Making Bid for Fan Ownership?

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« Reply #100 on: December 04, 2018, 13:28:45 pm »

Beds ,are you going to reply to the question, how will a community run club raise the money ?
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« Reply #101 on: December 04, 2018, 13:28:53 pm »

You're coming at it from the angle that Bower is gifting the club money or paying for things with magic beans which is laughable. Any private or community owned business has to build resilience and manage its cash flow.

There are members of the fan base in far more senior positions than Kelvin is in his business life away from football. Of course more dynamic people would get involved if they had something to get involved with.


I don't think he's paying for anything with magic beans. I think he's paying for things with cold, hard cash. I'd imagine this is more in the form of a director's loan rather than a gift, but either way it's nice to have that option, isn't it? A fan owned model wouldn't have that option.

Yes, we have some skilled professionals amongst our fan base who operate at a high level in business. I think you are in cloud cuckoo land if you think they'd want to join the board of the trust though. If you're thinking of people like Jackson, Binley et al, I don't think any of them are the type of character to get involved in any sort of collective. Shared ownership maybe, but that wouldn't be in partnership with the trust. The best they could hope for in that situation would be a seat at the far end of the table.
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« Reply #102 on: December 04, 2018, 13:39:37 pm »

I don't think he's paying for anything with magic beans. I think he's paying for things with cold, hard cash. I'd imagine this is more in the form of a director's loan rather than a gift, but either way it's nice to have that option, isn't it? A fan owned model wouldn't have that option.

Yes, we have some skilled professionals amongst our fan base who operate at a high level in business. I think you are in cloud cuckoo land if you think they'd want to join the board of the trust though. If you're thinking of people like Jackson, Binley et al, I don't think any of them are the type of character to get involved in any sort of collective. Shared ownership maybe, but that wouldn't be in partnership with the trust. The best they could hope for in that situation would be a seat at the far end of the table.

Again, there is little point going into this until there is a proper business plan presented to dissect. We are talking about member ownership here not Trust ownership, the Trust as we know it would be unrecognisable.


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« Reply #103 on: December 04, 2018, 14:51:28 pm »



Yes, we have some skilled professionals amongst our fan base who operate at a high level in business. I think you are in cloud cuckoo land if you think they'd want to join the board of the trust though. If you're thinking of people like Jackson, Binley et al, I don't think any of them are the type of character to get involved in any sort of collective. Shared ownership maybe, but that wouldn't be in partnership with the trust. The best they could hope for in that situation would be a seat at the far end of the table.
Yet again you are so far wide of the mark, have you thought of changing your name to "Back of Car Park behind the ground" ?
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« Reply #104 on: December 04, 2018, 14:58:54 pm »

Tcobb Meccanostand has said on here many time about the crowd funding done at other clubs like Stevenage in order to build new stands.

Shame  few more of you can't think " how can we" rather than 'we can't"

Interested to hear that the Lincoln director last night said their previous FA Cup run brought them new training facilities, look how they have developed and what direction they are going in.... something I said was more important than signing 30 new players every season like we do.

As said other fan owned clubs are doing well at the minute, much better than us and will be in a far better position to profit going forward.
 



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« Reply #105 on: December 04, 2018, 15:00:35 pm »

Hi Roger, very nice to see your passion coming out on this board  Smiley
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« Reply #106 on: December 04, 2018, 15:12:11 pm »

Random, people are suggesting having a fan/community run club, crowd funding whilst a great way to raise funds  for one off project, might not be an ideal way of raising funds for a much needed cash injection needed at short notice.
I doubt very much a football club could be run long term on a crowd funding scheme.
If people are suggesting that a fan/community run club is the way to go , then I'm asking them how, they seem to reply that it can be done without going into basics on how it can be done.
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« Reply #107 on: December 04, 2018, 15:15:02 pm »

Beds ,are you going to reply to the question, how will a community run club raise the money ?
 If your question is how can a 125 years old professional football club, that has nearly 100 years of fooball league membership, that has a such a large catchment of 300,000, centrally located to the country, also home to many large national companies with head quarters locally, raise a poxy £1m to start building up its infrastructure? It really doesn't warrant a reply.
Many much smaller clubs manage it and so WILL we.
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« Reply #108 on: December 04, 2018, 15:37:37 pm »

Yet again you are so far wide of the mark, have you thought of changing your name to "Back of Car Park behind the ground" ?

Is there something you'd like to tell us, Roger....?
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« Reply #109 on: December 04, 2018, 16:03:12 pm »

Maybe we'll get some craft beer.
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« Reply #110 on: December 04, 2018, 16:07:03 pm »

what cash fund at short notice are you talking about ?

Those that DC and KT have put it to get us out the s*** that they have created?  

No one is saying it will be easy or quick but we had the most success recently when we had A: no money and B: No chairman.  What we had was something to fight for and believe in - succeeding and surviving against the odds, there was also a sense of togtherness, something that has disappeared after about 10 games of 1st season back in League 1

But if you have sensible management, a longer term view, a vision and determination to be the best local club we can be, run by people whose main no 1 focus is NTFC then I don't see that we will need a cash fund at short notice.

I can only assume KT is waiting for an overseas investor with more money than sense, who thinks Northampton is only just outside London and get a would be Prem team for a bargain £3m, with another £3m+ for some surrounding land
 
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« Reply #111 on: December 04, 2018, 16:18:40 pm »


Shame  few more of you can't think " how can we" rather than 'we can't"




......so why don’t you get started with an actual executable plan instead of the veiled insults to fans who don’t share your view - paradoxically one of the downfalls of all types of “collective ownership schemes” is the politics of individuals who want to be in charge, never see or accept an alternative view and insult those they don’t see as folllowing their line or their level of enthusiasm.
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« Reply #112 on: December 04, 2018, 17:09:58 pm »

......so why don’t you get started with an actual executable plan instead of the veiled insults to fans who don’t share your view - paradoxically one of the downfalls of all types of “collective ownership schemes” is the politics of individuals who want to be in charge, never see or accept an alternative view and insult those they don’t see as folllowing their line or their level of enthusiasm.

Well said. I think there's also a third option to those offered by Random:

- how can we
- we can't
OR
- I wouldn't want us to.
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« Reply #113 on: December 04, 2018, 17:16:10 pm »

......so why don’t you get started with an actual executable plan instead of the veiled insults to fans who don’t share your view - paradoxically one of the downfalls of all types of “collective ownership schemes” is the politics of individuals who want to be in charge, never see or accept an alternative view and insult those they don’t see as folllowing their line or their level of enthusiasm.

Well said.
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« Reply #114 on: December 04, 2018, 17:42:16 pm »

......so why don’t you get started with an actual executable plan instead of the veiled insults to fans who don’t share your view - paradoxically one of the downfalls of all types of “collective ownership schemes” is the politics of individuals who want to be in charge, never see or accept an alternative view and insult those they don’t see as folllowing their line or their level of enthusiasm.

Fair point but let's not pretend that Random is a little terse for no reason. He's been banging his head against a brick wall for ages for what really are not radical ideas. We all lived through certain fans shouting down others when they tried to ask proper questions of Cardoza, fans who wouldn't take the "We Want Answers" leaflets and were hostile to that protest and to virtually any mention of change at the club. It works both ways.

I agree an executable plan is key though.
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« Reply #115 on: December 04, 2018, 18:09:41 pm »

Please avoid making the false assumption that the fans that don't see a community club as the way forward, as being the same fans who agree with KT or backed DC.
The person who was shouted down for questioning DC was done so at a Trust meeting, the very group who should have backed up that supporter that night let him down.
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« Reply #116 on: December 04, 2018, 18:10:56 pm »

I’ve read up about fan ownership over the years and remain undecided not massively in favour but can see some benefits.  I’ll explain why.
Let’s look at Exeter who have been mentioned frequently on this board in recent weeks as a successful template that could be followed.
The positive side of their fan ownership has been clear.  Fans are more engaged, they have more of a say and provide a key group of volunteers who put in countless hours free of charge to carry out work at the club.  The trust I believe invests circa 100K per year into the club.  I don’t know how this is raised but it’s a pretty impressive sum.

The trust as majority owners have the final say and set the rules that the people employed to run the club do so within its means with all that this entails.  No debt, overdrafts or other borrowings.  Budgets are set and stuck to.  Only when “windfalls” occur do they do more.  They split all windfalls in 3 ways, youth development, playing budget and infrastructure.
Windfalls only come from cup runs, play off finals or the sale of players.  Over the years these windfalls have been large but they have also had some very barren years.  For instance, the cup games against Man United several years ago cleared the clubs inherited debts pretty much.  Player windfalls have funded the creation of a 3G training pitch etc.

Now as good as those good years can be there are bad years.  Knocked out of the cups and no valuable youth players.  Poor league position and dips in crowds.  In this instance well, they just have to live within their means and cut their cloth accordingly.  This is where it gets difficult though.  They had to get a PFA loan during one of those periods to pay players and couldn’t sign anyone till several weeks in to the new season.  Lower gates than expected can cause big problems.
  
Their trust has admitted that it’s tough balancing the books and they don’t tend to receive much praise for doing so when results are not great on the pitch.  They have also admitted they are in an ever increasingly competitive environment where they have to increase budgets just to stay where they are.  They give managers a mid-table budget and expect them to over perform with it.  Meanwhile their competition and some teams in non league are throwing large sums of money at their club.

In fairness whoever employed Tisdale did great as it saved them a fortune over the years as they never needed to sack a manager and he was someone who was willing to work within the tight restrictions.  No January transfer budget for him unless a windfall occurred.
Of course, maybe this is a positive in some respects as it forces the manager to work with what he’s got.  They are big on youth development and again this likely push youth players forward quicker than they would elsewhere.  However, Tisdale wasn’t universally loved at Exeter as again with all supporters do, they really understand the restrictions he was working under?
  
Also, what is success?  Exeter have done well in league two most years with a manager and squad that have over performed their budget.  But is that their limit under this model.  A lot of people think so.  Their recent ground development was mainly funded by enabling money from a council land sale and the developers.  The development was needed desperately as the old stand was nearly 100 years old and just about squeezed through safety checks each year.  The new stand has added facilities which were needed but didn’t increase on the original capacity I understand.

So, as you can see there is a lot to like about the model BUT it’s not without massive challenges.  Certainly, it’s not going to deliver what some on here dream and fantasise about.  The reality is that without massive unexpected windfalls, enabling development we would likely remain as we are.  Probably a nicer more inclusive club to be a part of but forget dreams of a 10K plus stadium and championship potentially even league one football.

Finally, again a lot of people sing the praises of Wycombe as a similar successful model following their promotion to league one.  Bear in mind they are currently looking for private investors to take over a majority share in the club as they have acknowledged the current model can only take them so far.  Again, another club with a manager and budget that has massively over achieved.
So is it better than the current situation?
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« Reply #117 on: December 04, 2018, 18:16:24 pm »

When we, as fans, couldn't manage to raise the money to stay afloat the other season what on Earth makes you think we'd be able to raise the money to not only run the club year after year but to extend the stadium? Any of you can answer as I certainly don't expect Beds to.
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« Reply #118 on: December 04, 2018, 18:30:08 pm »

Please avoid making the false assumption that the fans that don't see a community club as the way forward, as being the same fans who agree with KT or backed DC.
The person who was shouted down for questioning DC was done so at a Trust meeting, the very group who should have backed up that supporter that night let him down.
Would You be OK with a well managed, well promoted and fully open community club that could be open to take over offers should the very right people come along?
 Even if Only to escape the clutches of these latest time wasters.
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« Reply #119 on: December 04, 2018, 18:37:59 pm »

I’ve read up about fan ownership over the years and remain undecided not massively in favour but can see some benefits.  I’ll explain why.
Let’s look at Exeter who have been mentioned frequently on this board in recent weeks as a successful template that could be followed.
The positive side of their fan ownership has been clear.  Fans are more engaged, they have more of a say and provide a key group of volunteers who put in countless hours free of charge to carry out work at the club.  The trust I believe invests circa 100K per year into the club.  I don’t know how this is raised but it’s a pretty impressive sum.

The trust as majority owners have the final say and set the rules that the people employed to run the club do so within its means with all that this entails.  No debt, overdrafts or other borrowings.  Budgets are set and stuck to.  Only when “windfalls” occur do they do more.  They split all windfalls in 3 ways, youth development, playing budget and infrastructure.
Windfalls only come from cup runs, play off finals or the sale of players.  Over the years these windfalls have been large but they have also had some very barren years.  For instance, the cup games against Man United several years ago cleared the clubs inherited debts pretty much.  Player windfalls have funded the creation of a 3G training pitch etc.

Now as good as those good years can be there are bad years.  Knocked out of the cups and no valuable youth players.  Poor league position and dips in crowds.  In this instance well, they just have to live within their means and cut their cloth accordingly.  This is where it gets difficult though.  They had to get a PFA loan during one of those periods to pay players and couldn’t sign anyone till several weeks in to the new season.  Lower gates than expected can cause big problems.
  
Their trust has admitted that it’s tough balancing the books and they don’t tend to receive much praise for doing so when results are not great on the pitch.  They have also admitted they are in an ever increasingly competitive environment where they have to increase budgets just to stay where they are.  They give managers a mid-table budget and expect them to over perform with it.  Meanwhile their competition and some teams in non league are throwing large sums of money at their club.

In fairness whoever employed Tisdale did great as it saved them a fortune over the years as they never needed to sack a manager and he was someone who was willing to work within the tight restrictions.  No January transfer budget for him unless a windfall occurred.
Of course, maybe this is a positive in some respects as it forces the manager to work with what he’s got.  They are big on youth development and again this likely push youth players forward quicker than they would elsewhere.  However, Tisdale wasn’t universally loved at Exeter as again with all supporters do, they really understand the restrictions he was working under?
  
Also, what is success?  Exeter have done well in league two most years with a manager and squad that have over performed their budget.  But is that their limit under this model.  A lot of people think so.  Their recent ground development was mainly funded by enabling money from a council land sale and the developers.  The development was needed desperately as the old stand was nearly 100 years old and just about squeezed through safety checks each year.  The new stand has added facilities which were needed but didn’t increase on the original capacity I understand.

So, as you can see there is a lot to like about the model BUT it’s not without massive challenges.  Certainly, it’s not going to deliver what some on here dream and fantasise about.  The reality is that without massive unexpected windfalls, enabling development we would likely remain as we are.  Probably a nicer more inclusive club to be a part of but forget dreams of a 10K plus stadium and championship potentially even league one football.

Finally, again a lot of people sing the praises of Wycombe as a similar successful model following their promotion to league one.  Bear in mind they are currently looking for private investors to take over a majority share in the club as they have acknowledged the current model can only take them so far.  Again, another club with a manager and budget that has massively over achieved.
So is it better than the current situation?



Bravo.  Smiley

Best, most balanced post I have seen on this forum for a long while.


The key question in my opinion is, how brave are we feeling to take a step into the (relatively) unknown?

Of course, all this assumes KT would even contemplate relinquishing his control to a collective.
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