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Fan Ownership

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MCHammer
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« Reply #400 on: March 11, 2019, 23:44:46 pm »

Could people really not see this coming?  I'd have been more shocked if "Project Proud To Be" had been any good.  What an arrogant, ill-informed, misjudged piece of rubbish.  The few good points it contained are simply drowned by the sea of "know-it-all" claptrap.  I'm sorry but it's soooo bad it's too good not to ridicule.  Someone has had the audacity to read a few online articles and believes they know better than professionals who have devoted their careers to the various subjects.  It's like someone who plays Football Manager and applies for the England job.

What was Meccano's quote the other month.  Something like the most in depth study of the club in it's history.  Identifying macro level issues.  Making it up as they go along.  What people at the club got interviewed to find out what they do?  How many coaches did you speak to?  What knowledge of the current practices do you have and how did you obtain that information?

In fact here's some easy ones for anyone involved to answer.  Who wrote it?  Who else contributed?  Provide an appendix listing your source matter and finally state what experience those involved in the writing of it bring.

As it's a living breathing document let's add some more sections.

GROUND IMPROVEMENTS

Problem - Not enough people behind the bar.....Solution - get more people behind the bar
Problem - Burgers are too expensive.....Solution - Sell cheaper burgers
Problem - The East Stand isn't finished.....Solution - Finish the East Stand

In fact this document has proven life changing for me on a personal level.  This morning I ran out of toothpaste.  Left me stumped what to do.....then I thought what would Project Proud To Be suggest?  Yep, buy more toothpaste!  It's that simple.  Late for work....leave earlier.  Hungry...eat something.  Thirsty....have a drink.  Thank you Project Proud To Be.

So the Trust board didn't see this.  YEAH RIGHT!!!  Andy Roberts spoke in interviews about some of the topics it contained.  People can back track all they like.  Everyone knew this was part of the event and if you didn't you are either lying or incompetent.

I note none of the usual suspects have appeared yet to even attempt to offer a defence.  Open and Honest remember the mantra.

So apart from that disaster let's talk community/fan ownership.  On the plus side fabulous to get an Exeter perspective represented warts and all.  No better experience and example of the challenges we would face.

Here are the problems though.  We've come up with a hybrid model.  Ask yourself why?  It's obvious, fan ownership alone simply cannot afford to buy and finance the club.  So let's get local business involved.

Ask yourself this though.  What's in it for them?  Does being local make a business man suitable to put our Trust in?  Who decides whether that businessman is fit and proper and when do the membership get consulted.  Bear in mind they admitted they approached the club already with a backer.  Who was that backer and what was their motivation?  Convenient to claim commercial sensitivities to avoid answering tough/any questions.  The irony of being secretive and not letting you the members share this information.  This from people that in the next sentence slaughter the current ownership for not disclosing development information.

Next the idea that somehow a community ownership would be better placed to get a development moving.  Well for starters you don't have the immediate finance and secondly you will face all the same council planning delays everyone else does.  Explain to me what you skills and expertise you possess that everyone else is missing.

It's the lunatics taking over the asylum.  Community ownership is a sure fire way of guaranteeing we stand still AT BEST and it costs you personally more money just to do so.  But you will all be happier apparently as we get to have a say....except you don't.....the lunatics in charge will do and share what they deem fit.

Finally the club for sale price.  I assume if the Trust got the club for a quid they will sell it for a quid when the inevitable time comes to seek the investment required to progress to the next level?
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« Reply #401 on: March 12, 2019, 06:13:35 am »

Fan ownership is a route to explore BUT personally I believe the best route is to get a group of investors together (hopefully with local interest) to raise the kind of money to buy the club AND more importantly to invest and run the club in the future!

The Trust could be involved, as a vehicle to represent fans who wish to invest to a smaller extent, but I would be surprised if this would involve more than 10 to 20% of the money required now and in the future.
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« Reply #402 on: March 12, 2019, 06:51:48 am »

Fan ownership is a route to explore BUT personally I believe the best route is to get a group of investors together (hopefully with local interest) to raise the kind of money to buy the club AND more importantly to invest and run the club in the future!

The Trust could be involved, as a vehicle to represent fans who wish to invest to a smaller extent, but I would be surprised if this would involve more than 10 to 20% of the money required now and in the future.

Yeah, but after this shambles, if we were taking that approach who'd be prepared to contribute any money in the form of smaller investments if it meant having to trust the Trust (no pun intended) on what they were going to do with it? On current form they'd go out to buy a football club and come back with some magic beans!

Great post, MCHammer, by the way.  Grin
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« Reply #403 on: March 12, 2019, 07:03:17 am »

As has been stated previously, the Trust would appoint somebody with the relevant experience to oversee the group of smaller investors (ie fans).
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« Reply #404 on: March 12, 2019, 07:17:33 am »

For those who were not at the meeting and are interested in a balanced report of Sunday’s meeting I suggest that you read the report on the Trust’s FaceBook page.

I was there as a Trust member. I thought it was very well hosted by Andy Roberts & Kevin Simons on behalf of the Trust and was a very interesting afternoon.  Time well spent.  A lot of hard work goes into arranging an event like this.  Whether you are for or against community ownership have the courtesy to respect the effort and commitment of those involved. 

Far too many of you making comments were not there and one who was mouthing off about him having better things to do on a Sunday afternoon like mending his rabbit hutch rushed to his keyboard later that day anxiously wanting a report.  Pathetic.

Some of the comments on here about Tom Reed are absolutely objectionable including those made by Drilling who as a Trust director should learn to act like one and in a more disciplined & professional manner.  I guess from his tweet on Saturday night that he was too busy on his settee to read any paperwork.  Tom Reed as we all know is very much an advocate of community ownership and the return of safe terracing.  Prior to Sunday’s meeting he took the time and trouble to visit Exeter and see first hand what has been achieved by this 100% fan owned club.  Many could learn more from him about this and how it works before taking random pot shots at him from the safe distance of their keyboards.

Getting back to the main subject as Hamster has commented the lead speaker from Exeter did say that 100% supporter ownership had a ceiling in his view pointing out that crazy money in being spent in the Championship by reckless owners who are engaged in a gamble to reach the riches of the Premier League. He did say that Exeter has a policy of being debt free and so although there may be lean years on the pitch the club will not be put at financial risk by incurring debt it cannot repay.  It was also clear that the 100% model requires a lot of effort and commitment on the part of volunteer fans. 

There was no speaker from a club with a hybrid model. Roy Crutchley of Phipps Brewery said that he thought that there were plenty of businesses in Northampton who would be willing to invest in a venture involving community ownership.  This concept to my mind now needs to be worked on by the Trust directors. I think it holds the best prospects for us.

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« Reply #405 on: March 12, 2019, 07:37:59 am »

For those who were not at the meeting and are interested in a balanced report of Sunday’s meeting I suggest that you read the report on the Trust’s FaceBook page.


Can it be posted on the Trusts Website with a link on here for those not on Facebook?
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« Reply #406 on: March 12, 2019, 08:02:09 am »


Far too many of you making comments were not there and one who was mouthing off about him having better things to do on a Sunday afternoon like mending his rabbit hutch rushed to his keyboard later that day anxiously wanting a report.  Pathetic.


That was me!  That was me!

To be clear, I would consider any activity more important than attending this meeting. My non-attendance was rather the point. It had the potential to be dangerous and damaging to our football club and the fewer people that showed an interest the better. That's why I pointedly used the rabbit hutch repair as something trivial that I found more important (plus that's really what I was doing!).

I think you may have misread the tone in my eagerness for a meeting report! I did later say that I'd be interested in hearing how it panned out, but I was thinking more about how many were there, did the club send representation etc.

As for your defence of Tom/MeccanoStand- yes, he's keen and done some research. Good for him. He's also come up with a right load of nonsense on the back of it. A colleague of mine watches lots of medical documentaries as says she'd love to do an operation on someone. Her enthusiasm doesn't replace the medical training that would make her capable of doing one though!
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« Reply #407 on: March 12, 2019, 08:20:04 am »

Could people really not see this coming?  I'd have been more shocked if "Project Proud To Be" had been any good.  What an arrogant, ill-informed, misjudged piece of rubbish.  The few good points it contained are simply drowned by the sea of "know-it-all" claptrap.  I'm sorry but it's soooo bad it's too good not to ridicule.  Someone has had the audacity to read a few online articles and believes they know better than professionals who have devoted their careers to the various subjects.  It's like someone who plays Football Manager and applies for the England job.

What was Meccano's quote the other month.  Something like the most in depth study of the club in it's history.  Identifying macro level issues.  Making it up as they go along.  What people at the club got interviewed to find out what they do?  How many coaches did you speak to?  What knowledge of the current practices do you have and how did you obtain that information?

In fact here's some easy ones for anyone involved to answer.  Who wrote it?  Who else contributed?  Provide an appendix listing your source matter and finally state what experience those involved in the writing of it bring.

As it's a living breathing document let's add some more sections.

GROUND IMPROVEMENTS

Problem - Not enough people behind the bar.....Solution - get more people behind the bar
Problem - Burgers are too expensive.....Solution - Sell cheaper burgers
Problem - The East Stand isn't finished.....Solution - Finish the East Stand

In fact this document has proven life changing for me on a personal level.  This morning I ran out of toothpaste.  Left me stumped what to do.....then I thought what would Project Proud To Be suggest?  Yep, buy more toothpaste!  It's that simple.  Late for work....leave earlier.  Hungry...eat something.  Thirsty....have a drink.  Thank you Project Proud To Be.

So the Trust board didn't see this.  YEAH RIGHT!!!  Andy Roberts spoke in interviews about some of the topics it contained.  People can back track all they like.  Everyone knew this was part of the event and if you didn't you are either lying or incompetent.

I note none of the usual suspects have appeared yet to even attempt to offer a defence.  Open and Honest remember the mantra.

So apart from that disaster let's talk community/fan ownership.  On the plus side fabulous to get an Exeter perspective represented warts and all.  No better experience and example of the challenges we would face.

Here are the problems though.  We've come up with a hybrid model.  Ask yourself why?  It's obvious, fan ownership alone simply cannot afford to buy and finance the club.  So let's get local business involved.

Ask yourself this though.  What's in it for them?  Does being local make a business man suitable to put our Trust in?  Who decides whether that businessman is fit and proper and when do the membership get consulted.  Bear in mind they admitted they approached the club already with a backer.  Who was that backer and what was their motivation?  Convenient to claim commercial sensitivities to avoid answering tough/any questions.  The irony of being secretive and not letting you the members share this information.  This from people that in the next sentence slaughter the current ownership for not disclosing development information.

Next the idea that somehow a community ownership would be better placed to get a development moving.  Well for starters you don't have the immediate finance and secondly you will face all the same council planning delays everyone else does.  Explain to me what you skills and expertise you possess that everyone else is missing.

It's the lunatics taking over the asylum.  Community ownership is a sure fire way of guaranteeing we stand still AT BEST and it costs you personally more money just to do so.  But you will all be happier apparently as we get to have a say....except you don't.....the lunatics in charge will do and share what they deem fit.

Finally the club for sale price.  I assume if the Trust got the club for a quid they will sell it for a quid when the inevitable time comes to seek the investment required to progress to the next level?

Good post. Difficult to argue with much of that.
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« Reply #408 on: March 12, 2019, 08:29:45 am »

Good post by MC but Vintage has already challenged it - it’s a case of this is my truth tell me yours.
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« Reply #409 on: March 12, 2019, 09:11:56 am »

Can it be posted on the Trusts Website with a link on here for those not on Facebook?
Absolutely where it should be. Couldn't agree more.
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« Reply #410 on: March 12, 2019, 09:42:05 am »

The document that was circulated yesterday was not seen by the Trust Board. As a trust board member, the first I knew of it was when I went on to twitter yesterday evening.

From my prospective, its a huge embarrassment. I actually quite like a formation which includes wing backs   Wink

In all seriousness though; it shouldn't have been distributed with the Trusts name on it and I hope that the person responsible for putting it together confirms that very soon.

I dont mean this to sound like an attack on you but the Trust are asking us to 'keep an open mind' with regards to Trust / Fan ownership and at the very first meeting, the document that was used to promote the meeting on Twitter has not been seen / signed off by the board!! Yes in the grand scheme this is fairly trivial but its an embarrassing start when you are talking about running an entire football club and yet you dont know what is being presented to 200 people at the launch. I also saw comments from the Trust about its not a proposal but a 'placeholder'. WTF is a placeholder?!
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« Reply #411 on: March 12, 2019, 10:26:53 am »

I'm very open minded about fan ownership and understand that there are various models we could follow. However the last couple of pages of this thread have really brought all my concerns to the fore.

Whatever the truth about the document, the whole affair is a huge embarrassment. It simply points to the fact that the Trust and it's board are not all singing from the same hymn sheer, which should be the bare minimum.

I also find it a little concerning that, in the report from the meeting it states that a proposal has already been taken to the club, which includes the backing of a mystery investor. Surely nothing should ever have got that far without it being put to the fans first?

Maybe I am extremely naďve but I believe the only way this works is if the trust are completely transparent with the fan base. If all we are going to do is swap one group of people who can decide what the fan base is worthy of knowing for another then what do we really gain? The fact that one group of people are fans doesn't make a huge difference, I only have to spend 5 minutes on here to know that I have different opinions on the way things are done to many other fans.
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« Reply #412 on: March 12, 2019, 10:34:56 am »

I was at the trust meeting which I found informative and interested listening to how other clubs ventured into fan/ community ownership.

I notice every time the pros and cons of 'going it alone' is raised, the argument of the need for billionaire backers is always used as a scaremongering tactic to avoid having any change from the comfort of our usual mid to low division four existence.
Maybe  some of our support base fear the big step up in class playing league 1 football, with  too many big clubs with skilful players who punish the slightest mistakes? Large noisey followings?   Or playing several local rivals in all ticket, capacity crowds?
Of course they don't, they want all the above and a lot more!
Does playing in and maintaining league 1 status really need a multi millionaire backer? No of course not, it just needs some boxes built and an increase on capacity to maximise on the ticket sales for the bigger games and make the football experience at Sixfields a lot more enjoyable.

I was asked at the meeting by someone who was dead against fan ownership, where would I be happy to see our club he asked , the answer was simple, I want to see a challenging established league 1 club that has enough infrastructure to be sustainable and maximise our earning potential at that level.
Billionaires not required, but when wealthy local benefactors see they are not required as cash cows, they'll be more than happy to get on board and help .

Well done to all those trust folk in getting this moving.

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« Reply #413 on: March 12, 2019, 12:40:12 pm »


Maybe I am extremely naive but I believe the only way this works is if the trust are completely transparent with the fan base.


If Drilling is correct, they should start by being transparent with their own Board members?
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« Reply #414 on: March 12, 2019, 12:42:18 pm »


I want to see a challenging established league 1 club that has enough infrastructure to be sustainable and maximise our earning potential at that level.


Agreed, the challenge is how we get to that stage...
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« Reply #415 on: March 12, 2019, 13:27:56 pm »

Agreed, the challenge is how we get to that stage...
By just doing it!
It doesn't have to happen over night,  if its done in 3 stages of well managed projects, that is hugely promoted throughout the support base, town in general, county and buisness community, it will very soon gather momentum.
Several excellent methods of raising funds have been well documented, that doesn't require individuals to shovel vast sums at it.
Nothing can ever happen while the present incumbents finish their secretive dealings with the council.

'The old club mantra 'We are frustrated with the lack of our progress and our inability to tell the town of Northampton what it is we plan to do'  has at long last worn very thin, we can only hope they move on to their next 'project ' very soon.
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« Reply #416 on: March 12, 2019, 15:39:49 pm »

I find it strange that having listened to you banging on about championship football and how easy this would be to achieve with the good folk of Northants behind the club. That you have now scaled down your ambition to supporting a well led league one club  Grin  It would seem that regardless of all of the ridicule that has pursued your hair brained schemes around many avenues of social media, you remained oblivious to good old common sense. Yet one dose of reality on a Sunday afternoon in a Northampton hotel has brought you down to earth with a bump.

To the casual onlooker, it could well appear that you have tried to sell anything other than KT to all and sundry. But having been outed by some who have been there, done it, and got the T Shirt, you are now a convert to sleepy town football. When you hear clubs the size of Portsmouth stating the limitations of hybrid or fan owned models, it finally sinks in doesn't it?. What a shame it took so long, when I and many others were trying to tell you that we are not in KT's pocket. That we actually did, and demonstrably still do have, a decent appraisal of the facts. 

Posts going back some time have spoke about fan ownership. Predominantly it's clear and present limitations. If under YOUR idyllic fan ownership model, we found ourselves following the Exeter model, you and your cronies would be the first raise your pitchforks at the mere whiff of relegation, brought about under the banner of sustainability. I can just hear your reaction to a model that will do it's best to achieve mid table L1 football. But every now and then in order to balance the books relegation is inevitable.

I believe that KT is far from the dream owner. I absolutely agree that he has a vested interest in the land. But I am very confident that you and a few others would accept anything except him. He's ignored you. And you and a few others don't like being ignored.

I could see the blood boiling and the gritted teeth of a few die hard  KT haters, when an employee of NTFC had the gall to stand up and say that she and her colleagues really like their boss. That they are happy. Something that I have stated repeatedly. I could see the haters wincing. 

You know as well as I do, that Sundays meeting was a well meant exploratory process aimed a gauging the fans perspective. But like it or not, it threw up a lot more questions than answers. It was very worth while. But equally it exposed a significant level of naivety within the Trust and the support. It only managed to attract around 2% of the fan base. And there was a clear 50/50 split in the room. So Trust aside, it managed to impact on around 80 supporters, sufficiently enough to give it a chance. 

Have you you scaled down your plans for the stadium, now you've accepted comfortable league one football?  Grin Grin Because I haven't. I still live in hope that one day we will attract some billionaire with a few quid to squander on the club I love. I know that sounds mad. I know it probably won't happen. But it is nowhere near as daft as some of the claptrap spouted by some on here.


Just had time to read the first 2 paragraphs as I hope to make the match from up London, 
Firstly my advocating us being a challenging league 1 club would suggest we are fighting for a top 6 place and not the other meaning of being difficult and annoying when dealing with other clubs😂😂

My crazy arsed schemes as to escape the suffocating   clutches of Thomas and co have yet to be be disproved as such and until its not acting on in favour of something better, it stands😉
Whiting took up on one of my past  ideas of selling ground naming rights to a large national company in order to fit the boces in the east, that was derided also, but fast forward a year and its welcome to the pmt stadium but without the frigging boxes😂😂.
Will read the rest later😚
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« Reply #417 on: March 12, 2019, 16:20:32 pm »

Can someone point me towards a fan owned club which has achieved a top 6 finish in league 1?
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« Reply #418 on: March 12, 2019, 16:48:36 pm »

One of the things I've been told was that one of the panel members from Exeter said that the most important thing for them is sustainability above all else. If that means a relegation out of the football league then so be it.

How many of our fanbase would be happy with that happening to us?
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« Reply #419 on: March 12, 2019, 16:58:18 pm »

Can someone point me towards a fan owned club which has achieved a top 6 finish in league 1?
Something that Northampton Town have achieved ONCE in the last FIFTY SIX years of private ownership !
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