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Fan Ownership

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cj
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« Reply #160 on: February 08, 2019, 19:00:01 pm »

Deepcut, there seems to be no answer about funding a fan owned club, those suggesting it don't seem to have a clue as to where the money will come from.

Pies pies pies pies, pies pies pies pies, PIES.
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« Reply #161 on: February 08, 2019, 21:47:07 pm »

The three examples we should be looking at are Swansea (rise from 4th to Prem) Accrington and Burton. 

Swansea as they had a plan to build a football club with a vision of what they wanted and how things would work  ie: They told the manager what type and style of football they wanted and they had to use the backroom staff already in place

Accrington and Burton both are owned by fans who are businessmen tuned to modern day policies and practises, whose clubs are punching well above their weight

I still struggle to understand how some fans are so against the above, especially when you factor in the last 10 years at NTFC. But then i believe that many fans don't help as they can only focus on player acquisitions and that is their sole judgement on a chairman, despite the obvious factor that randomly bringing in average players on high wages f***s up the club every time
You’ve answered your own question Random. I think the reason you and others like you struggle to understand is you exclusively promote best case scenarios dismissing any and all realistic concerns as irrelevant. The correct thing to do is look at all scenarios and form a balanced considered opinion. The problem with your approach is that many see the obvious omissions and flaws in the reasoning. Your opinion is then ridiculed and any pertinent comments that may be made are lost in the tidal wave of scepticism. The irony is that you inadvertently end up supporting the current model, because many people believe your suggested alternative is probably unrealistic fantasy. Hope that helps?
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« Reply #162 on: February 09, 2019, 08:09:54 am »

You’ve answered your own question Random. I think the reason you and others like you struggle to understand is you exclusively promote best case scenarios dismissing any and all realistic concerns as irrelevant. The correct thing to do is look at all scenarios and form a balanced considered opinion. The problem with your approach is that many see the obvious omissions and flaws in the reasoning. Your opinion is then ridiculed and any pertinent comments that may be made are lost in the tidal wave of scepticism. The irony is that you inadvertently end up supporting the current model, because many people believe your suggested alternative is probably unrealistic fantasy. Hope that helps?

To be fair to Random, he has an open mind and is willing to look outside of the closed frame of reference that is the Cobblers. The vast majority of our fans quietly go about their business and will fairly weigh up any propositions on ownership of the club.
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« Reply #163 on: February 09, 2019, 08:44:11 am »

I've replied elsewhere on the finances so I'm not going to repeat myself..

If any model of greater supporter involvement is to succeed then it has to be on the basis of what the current financial position of the club is, not what it could become. No bank would ever take seriously a proposal that includes a growth factor of 50% to make it viable. The first question that any bank will ask is "what happens to your plans if incomes fall by 50%"?

In the case of a football club, any bank will be even more sceptical because of the lack of security..

This isn't to say that supporter ownership models cannot work - I think that they can and NTFC only has the turnover of a large corner shop, but there has to be absolute realism about the money involved. Having looked at the cobblers accounts in as much detail as possible, I would think that a full supporter owned club will need about £5m to be taken seriously and then what ever price the current owner would want to sell their equity.

The £5m is based on cash flow, repairs and renewals, a hedge against fiscal disasters etc...
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« Reply #164 on: February 09, 2019, 08:50:06 am »

I've replied elsewhere on the finances so I'm not going to repeat myself..

If any model of greater supporter involvement is to succeed then it has to be on the basis of what the current financial position of the club is, not what it could become. No bank would ever take seriously a proposal that includes a growth factor of 50% to make it viable. The first question that any bank will ask is "what happens to your plans if incomes fall by 50%"?

In the case of a football club, any bank will be even more sceptical because of the lack of security..

This isn't to say that supporter ownership models cannot work - I think that they can and NTFC only has the turnover of a large corner shop, but there has to be absolute realism about the money involved. Having looked at the cobblers accounts in as much detail as possible, I would think that a full supporter owned club will need about £5m to be taken seriously and then what ever price the current owner would want to sell their equity.

The £5m is based on cash flow, repairs and renewals, a hedge against fiscal disasters etc...

Quite a few summations there but some interesting points. Of course any community owned club would have to have a viable business plan, that goes without saying.
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« Reply #165 on: February 09, 2019, 08:56:25 am »

I would be interested to know what the assumptions are that might be questionable? No one outside the club has the full management accounts but a combination of the published accounts, stuff from the EFL etc, mean that I am reasonably confident that the order of magnitude of the finances are correct.

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« Reply #166 on: February 09, 2019, 11:28:45 am »

Good Morning!

As a supporter of a fan owned club, Newport County, i thought i would just add a few points as to what it has meant to me. I dont pretend to know the ins and outs financially of the club, only a peripheral view. Also i think our ground situation is also pretty unique compared to other clubs, we pay rent to the owners, who appear to not even want us to be there.
Going back in time. i just paid my ticket money to watch a game and never really gave a second thought to behind the scenes issues, the club played its matches in whatever league they were in, mostly Division Four and the world carried on.
Then one day my club didnt exist, there was no money left.
After reformation and a pretty much hand to mouth existence for twenty odd years, slowly climbing up the leagues a lottery winner was bamboozled into putting some money into the club, this funded our return to the league but the love affair didnt last long, and the fans buy out situation arose.
Fans were asked to contribute to buy the club and all rallied round with donations and the minimum  to join the trust was £10 a year. A bargain as priority tickets were included in this arrangement, and we did well in the cup and much money was gained.
However it emerged that not enough money was coming in on a regular basis from gate receipts and trust income, Fortunate in a few transfer deals, and cup money balanced the books.
Recently an overhaul of the trust membership scheme upped the minimum contribution from £10 a year to £60 a year, Times four for this household equals £240. For me thats affordable, especially as i dont get to that many home games, but for many fans locally, on top of regular attendance that can be a lot to justify on ones interest in watching football.
Also a subscription to i-follow, and the County lottery are extra outgoings to support my football team.
So it is no longer just pay for a ticket and watch the game, it has become a commitment from the heart and the bank balance.
The recent cup success and the fact that next week we shall be watching us play Man city are memories we shall treasure forever and can be seen as some payback for the financial commitment, without being a trust member i doubt we would have got tickets, certainly not seats as required.
This success has clouded the issue that the club cannot survive (competitively) on a bog standard early cup exit season.
I dont know what the future will hold, but a third party injection of cash may ensure survival but also takes control away from those that care. The fan base of a few thousand cannot fund the existence of a league two football team in the long term. 

Good luck to the Cobblers in sorting out their financial situation which in itself seems very complex to an outsider!

Phil in Northampton


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« Reply #167 on: February 09, 2019, 12:28:02 pm »

Good Morning!

As a supporter of a fan owned club, Newport County, i thought i would just add a few points as to what it has meant to me. I dont pretend to know the ins and outs financially of the club, only a peripheral view. Also i think our ground situation is also pretty unique compared to other clubs, we pay rent to the owners, who appear to not even want us to be there.
Going back in time. i just paid my ticket money to watch a game and never really gave a second thought to behind the scenes issues, the club played its matches in whatever league they were in, mostly Division Four and the world carried on.
Then one day my club didnt exist, there was no money left.
After reformation and a pretty much hand to mouth existence for twenty odd years, slowly climbing up the leagues a lottery winner was bamboozled into putting some money into the club, this funded our return to the league but the love affair didnt last long, and the fans buy out situation arose.
Fans were asked to contribute to buy the club and all rallied round with donations and the minimum  to join the trust was £10 a year. A bargain as priority tickets were included in this arrangement, and we did well in the cup and much money was gained.
However it emerged that not enough money was coming in on a regular basis from gate receipts and trust income, Fortunate in a few transfer deals, and cup money balanced the books.
Recently an overhaul of the trust membership scheme upped the minimum contribution from £10 a year to £60 a year, Times four for this household equals £240. For me thats affordable, especially as i dont get to that many home games, but for many fans locally, on top of regular attendance that can be a lot to justify on ones interest in watching football.
Also a subscription to i-follow, and the County lottery are extra outgoings to support my football team.
So it is no longer just pay for a ticket and watch the game, it has become a commitment from the heart and the bank balance.
The recent cup success and the fact that next week we shall be watching us play Man city are memories we shall treasure forever and can be seen as some payback for the financial commitment, without being a trust member i doubt we would have got tickets, certainly not seats as required.
This success has clouded the issue that the club cannot survive (competitively) on a bog standard early cup exit season.
I dont know what the future will hold, but a third party injection of cash may ensure survival but also takes control away from those that care. The fan base of a few thousand cannot fund the existence of a league two football team in the long term. 

Good luck to the Cobblers in sorting out their financial situation which in itself seems very complex to an outsider!

Phil in Northampton




Good insight mate. Enjoy your cup game; fingers crossed you win! Or at least hang on for a replay!
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« Reply #168 on: February 09, 2019, 13:21:43 pm »

Thank you!

No replays. All on the day, extra time and penalties if required. I just hope we don’t suffer as Burton did, albeit that was at City.

Phil in Npton
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« Reply #169 on: February 09, 2019, 13:27:44 pm »

I've replied elsewhere on the finances so I'm not going to repeat myself..

If any model of greater supporter involvement is to succeed then it has to be on the basis of what the current financial position of the club is, not what it could become. No bank would ever take seriously a proposal that includes a growth factor of 50% to make it viable. The first question that any bank will ask is "what happens to your plans if incomes fall by 50%"?

In the case of a football club, any bank will be even more sceptical because of the lack of security..

This isn't to say that supporter ownership models cannot work - I think that they can and NTFC only has the turnover of a large corner shop, but there has to be absolute realism about the money involved. Having looked at the cobblers accounts in as much detail as possible, I would think that a full supporter owned club will need about £5m to be taken seriously and then what ever price the current owner would want to sell their equity.

The £5m is based on cash flow, repairs and renewals, a hedge against fiscal disasters etc...
I’ve said this before Wandering and I will go on the record with this indisputable fact again. Forget the banks unless you have the collateral to cover the loan and then some. Anyone who assumes this is even a remote possibility without that condition is in for a shock.
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« Reply #170 on: February 09, 2019, 16:56:41 pm »

Hi Aussie
I wasn't suggesting a loan...I was just trying to highlight the size of the capital to be raised that might be required for a 100% fan owned club...my figures are speculative given the fact the turnover of the club is confidential..I set £5m as approximately 125% of what the turnover might be..

I agree entirely that any bank would be extremely circumspect in looking at a supporters owned club because no bank wants to be responsible for calling in the collateral of a football club...

Having said that, I think a bank would be willing to look at being the banker of a supporter owned club if there were strict financial rules on how its finances were to be operated, similar to the salary cap management protocol that the EFL already applies to Div 2 clubs..sorry for the confusion..

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« Reply #171 on: February 09, 2019, 18:12:31 pm »

I still find it amazing that some come on here and talk about me saying only best scenario etc etc yet completely ignore the failings of the current and previous managers. In a nutshell whatever fan owner ship is it seems that it must be 100% perfect to gain an support from certain individuals yet are happy with current owners who are imho 1% perfect

The other thing some have wrong is that i am advocating very slow, focus and sustainable growth and actually trying to run the football club for all. Certainly sure that whoever owns the club they will make bad signings however isn't it about time some of you actually starting looking at the bigger picture and ask why do we sign so many players / managers etc and also the calibre and potential of those players. I believe that NTFC has a relatively bad reputation within football, training facilities are poor, player facilities are poor, atmosphere is poor, the owners are mainly absent and there is little / no ambition, these are the things that over time could and should be fixed, which in turn will attract better players.

In summary there has to be a much better balance between on and off pitch investment, in the past it seems 105% player / manager and -5% off the pitch. That would be my focus, I would slash the wage / management bill until off the pitch catches up a bit. If that meant finishing 18th in league 2 for the next 4 seasons then so be it but then player facilities would have improved, better staff, better atmosphere within the club would improve our chances on the pitch.
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« Reply #172 on: February 09, 2019, 18:21:14 pm »

Slashing the wage bill could mean finishing 24th next season, maybe the season after that too. How would a fan owned Club make up the loss of income because of relegation ?
 Random, why do you think, wrongly, that people who are not keen on fan ownership, want the current owners to stay ?
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« Reply #173 on: February 09, 2019, 18:27:26 pm »

How low would you be prepared to go? Conference,conference North or maybe even one below that.

If that is built into the business plan then just say so..
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« Reply #174 on: February 09, 2019, 18:30:21 pm »

I still find it amazing that some come on here and talk about me saying only best scenario etc etc yet completely ignore the failings of the current and previous managers. In a nutshell whatever fan owner ship is it seems that it must be 100% perfect to gain an support from certain individuals yet are happy with current owners who are imho 1% perfect

The other thing some have wrong is that i am advocating very slow, focus and sustainable growth and actually trying to run the football club for all. Certainly sure that whoever owns the club they will make bad signings however isn't it about time some of you actually starting looking at the bigger picture and ask why do we sign so many players / managers etc and also the calibre and potential of those players. I believe that NTFC has a relatively bad reputation within football, training facilities are poor, player facilities are poor, atmosphere is poor, the owners are mainly absent and there is little / no ambition, these are the things that over time could and should be fixed, which in turn will attract better players.

In summary there has to be a much better balance between on and off pitch investment, in the past it seems 105% player / manager and -5% off the pitch. That would be my focus, I would slash the wage / management bill until off the pitch catches up a bit. If that meant finishing 18th in league 2 for the next 4 seasons then so be it but then player facilities would have improved, better staff, better atmosphere within the club would improve our chances on the pitch.



I was going to comment on each of your points but decided that it would have been a waste of time...
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guest3114
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« Reply #175 on: February 09, 2019, 19:39:49 pm »

Hi Aussie
I wasn't suggesting a loan...I was just trying to highlight the size of the capital to be raised that might be required for a 100% fan owned club...my figures are speculative given the fact the turnover of the club is confidential..I set £5m as approximately 125% of what the turnover might be..

I agree entirely that any bank would be extremely circumspect in looking at a supporters owned club because no bank wants to be responsible for calling in the collateral of a football club...

Having said that, I think a bank would be willing to look at being the banker of a supporter owned club if there were strict financial rules on how its finances were to be operated, similar to the salary cap management protocol that the EFL already applies to Div 2 clubs..sorry for the confusion..


I know, I was just saying because you raised the subject of the banks. I have the unfortunate duty of having to deal with them on a regular basis both here and in the UK. In fact I am currently doing so on 2 fronts, clueless w@nkers Drive me to an inch of sanity. However on your last point trust me on this, whilst all and any will happily be the clubs banker when it comes to a loan you would struggle to get enough to redecorate the changing rooms.
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« Reply #176 on: February 09, 2019, 19:46:16 pm »


I was going to comment on each of your points but decided that it would have been a waste of time...
Instead of giving Random advice I should be taking yours DC. It’s like talking to the cat.
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« Reply #177 on: February 10, 2019, 01:52:01 am »

To be fair to Random, he has an open mind and is willing to look outside of the closed frame of reference that is the Cobblers. The vast majority of our fans quietly go about their business and will fairly weigh up any propositions on ownership of the club.
“He has an open mind”? Do me a favour Mecca, if you are going to comment on here stay off the drugs.
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« Reply #178 on: February 10, 2019, 07:29:08 am »

The amount of (not even hidden) agendas, plans written on the back of fag packets and rhetoric on here is frightening.
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« Reply #179 on: February 10, 2019, 09:50:49 am »

All I want is proof. That is very little to ask. I have attended a few meetings, listened to individuals/groups,  as well as receiving some emails from the council.

If I am asked to sit in a meeting where the word “allegedly” is used as much as it is already, then I will more than likely go bang 😁.

If someone tells me that a sum of money can be raised from somewhere, they better be able to show me how. I do not want to hear about if every supporter does this, we'll have this. Or if we get local business on board we'll make this much.. That is not a plan.
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