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Fan Ownership

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Boot and shoe
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« Reply #20 on: January 22, 2019, 09:03:22 am »

Oh, and private ownership has done us so well in over a hundred years to avoid mediocrity has it?
Private ownership has given us some enjoyable times and some desperate times .
Fan ownership , in my view would just stagnate us .
You need someone who can write off the inevitable losses .
I believe we would be in danger of dropping out the league .
Donít get me wrong , I have absolutely no idea about what the alternative answer is currently . There appears to be no drive from above whatsoever . We are a club with no agenda right now .
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« Reply #21 on: January 22, 2019, 09:34:39 am »

Private ownership has given us some enjoyable times and some desperate times .
Fan ownership , in my view would just stagnate us .
You need someone who can write off the inevitable losses .
I believe we would be in danger of dropping out the league .
Donít get me wrong , I have absolutely no idea about what the alternative answer is currently . There appears to be no drive from above whatsoever . We are a club with no agenda right now .


The problem is that whilst well intentioned it will not work unless it has generous benefactors behind it. The raising of the 1-2 million may be just possible Say 3000 individuals at £500 each. That however is for working capital. It does not acquire the club pay off the existing indebtedness or develop the ground.  The key will be the Trusts financial plans and what level of support they have behind them.

The involvement of Wycombe does emphasize this case. They were only able to do so because they had the support of a Rugby man who wanted Wasps to play there. He has move on to Coventry. The trust are now recommending the sale to private individuals.

Newport had the backing of a European Lottery winner who walked away writing off his investment by transferring the shares to the Trust.

Exeter is a good model but has relied for years on the sale of young player for very large sums.

Portsmouth have recently moved away from the Trust.
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« Reply #22 on: January 22, 2019, 09:39:26 am »

Its encouraging to see a positive discussion on this  and hopefully the thread can continue in the same way.
Personally I'm not a fan of fan ownership models as for me the risk to our future is to high, even though I agree we've not had a great period.

Fez's post has some great and interesting points and is well balanced. It would be interesting to see what local business we have and how much they would contribute. My biggest concern with it is where the money comes from. If we need £1.5-2m and Portsmouth has 10 companies giving 100k each that still leaves us £0.5-1m short, and could we really attract the same level of investment as Portsmouth? If we can get offers in principle that could cover close to the requirement then it becomes more attractive.
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« Reply #23 on: January 22, 2019, 09:45:00 am »

Fan Ownership story here via the NeneQuirer. Includes Trust statement on the redevelopment.

https://nenequirer.com/2019/01/21/supporters-trust-to-investigate-fan-ownership-bid-for-cobblers/
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« Reply #24 on: January 22, 2019, 09:57:19 am »

Euromillions jackpot is up to £61 million tonight.

My spreadsheet says I'd have enough to buy the club and be able to cover the losses until we my 5 year plan gets us to the Prem....
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« Reply #25 on: January 22, 2019, 10:47:13 am »



The involvement of Wycombe does emphasize this case. They were only able to do so because they had the support of a Rugby man who wanted Wasps to play there. He has move on to Coventry. The trust are now recommending the sale to private individuals. Since when ?

.


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« Reply #26 on: January 22, 2019, 10:49:03 am »

The problem is that whilst well intentioned it will not work unless it has generous benefactors behind it. The raising of the 1-2 million may be just possible Say 3000 individuals at £500 each. That however is for working capital. It does not acquire the club pay off the existing indebtedness or develop the ground.  The key will be the Trusts financial plans and what level of support they have behind them.

The involvement of Wycombe does emphasize this case. They were only able to do so because they had the support of a Rugby man who wanted Wasps to play there. He has move on to Coventry. The trust are now recommending the sale to private individuals.

Newport had the backing of a European Lottery winner who walked away writing off his investment by transferring the shares to the Trust.

Exeter is a good model but has relied for years on the sale of young player for very large sums.

Portsmouth have recently moved away from the Trust.
Exactly - fan ownership can work if you are backed by a fan with a load of money !
As a utilitarian business model I donít think it stands up for a club of our size .
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« Reply #27 on: January 22, 2019, 11:05:54 am »



http://www.wycombewandererstrust.com/
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« Reply #28 on: January 22, 2019, 11:44:00 am »

I'm against fan ownership but understand the reasons behind looking into it and the options outside of our current ownership model.
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« Reply #29 on: January 22, 2019, 11:50:53 am »

Fans ownership is a non-starter.

There is no chance of raising enough capital for the acquisition, day to day running, maintenance and improvement works, players wages etc.

Nice idea but sorry no.
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« Reply #30 on: January 22, 2019, 12:13:02 pm »

This proposed fan ownership is the 100% option.
Is the German version of 51% being investigated?
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« Reply #31 on: January 22, 2019, 15:24:52 pm »

Fair point, well made !  Grin
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« Reply #32 on: January 22, 2019, 15:35:43 pm »

This proposed fan ownership is the 100% option.
Is the German version of 51% being investigated?
Spot on Deepcut this is the best model going forward.
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Rule Britannia
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« Reply #33 on: January 22, 2019, 20:07:40 pm »



B) you maintain the club to break even, that may involve a vastly reduced playing budget to begin with...no point in hiding from that

That will not get the crowds in.
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YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU'RE DOING
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« Reply #34 on: January 22, 2019, 21:29:03 pm »

This proposed fan ownership is the 100% option.
Is the German version of 51% being investigated?
It should be. The posts questioning fan ownership raise some valid points and to deny its flaws as a model is misguided. My personal view is that it is the most likely to achieve the realistic aspirations of the support base. However in my assessment it would take 3000-5000 supporters to invest a total of around 7 to 9 million to stand a chance of taking the club forward. This would need to be near matched by outside investment taking up the remaining 49%. With restriction on shareholdings preventing a hostile takeover outsider corporate investors just may buy into the romance of the model. This would give a total of 14 to 17 million. Is this achievable, is there the appetite for this, I suspect not but thatís my assessment in aligning what we would want with what we would need. All done pretty much blind of course but thought I would put it out there again. The bottom line is if there was the appetite for this across the support base on those general terms I would be up for a punt and so I believe would Manny, but so far thatís about it? Hardly the the attractive master plan Iíd hoped for?
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« Reply #35 on: January 22, 2019, 23:14:07 pm »

It should be. The posts questioning fan ownership raise some valid points and to deny its flaws as a model is misguided. My personal view is that it is the most likely to achieve the realistic aspirations of the support base. However in my assessment it would take 3000-5000 supporters to invest a total of around 7 to 9 million to stand a chance of taking the club forward. This would need to be near matched by outside investment taking up the remaining 49%. With restriction on shareholdings preventing a hostile takeover outsider corporate investors just may buy into the romance of the model. This would give a total of 14 to 17 million. Is this achievable, is there the appetite for this, I suspect not but thatís my assessment in aligning what we would want with what we would need. All done pretty much blind of course but thought I would put it out there again. The bottom line is if there was the appetite for this across the support base on those general terms I would be up for a punt and so I believe would Manny, but so far thatís about it? Hardly the the attractive master plan Iíd hoped for?
You do love your big unattainable numbers.
At no time in the clubs history has anyone invested more than 500k at any one time and the club has bounced along   surviving hand to mouth on the good will of the very few fans that bother to turn up.
£17m would make life very easy but it's not essential as only Sunderland could dream of that kind of investment.
A fan run club working closely with local buisneses would only need to show an upturn of 50% increase of gate revenues, corporate match day takings, food and beverages etc and to acheive its immediate goals of stages of redevelopment of the stadium over a period of time and attain and establish a league 1 presence.
We would not need anything like these fanciful figures to take the first steps to building up our club.
None of us would expect us to make record signings just to hook better quality players from the pool all clubs get them from.
Steady year on year growth working with all the clubs catchment and buisness community catches monkey.
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« Reply #36 on: January 23, 2019, 00:17:19 am »

Now then.  The great thing about a Capitalist Society is that you can make loads of dosh, even from a failed business plan.

So, what you do in this instance is, get a few people (maybe 6 or 7) who would be prepared to sacrifice £100 each (initial Share listing to prove it is a bona fide business).  You set up a new company called "Cobblers 2019 Ltd" - sorry - an extra £200 or so to find to set the company up.....  ooops, my maths are bad already.

But, then, having set up said company, you buy the Cobblers from Thomas etc for the same £1 that they paid for it.

Having done that, you declare yourselves bankrupt, due to the huge debts you have acquired.  You then appoint another Hotel-Ender (who hopefully has an Accounting Qualification - over and above counting sheep - to act as Administrator).  They then negotiate a write-down/write-off of all owings to something more manageable.

The Bankrupt Company of "Cobblers 2019 Ltd" is then sold to another group of fans each prepared to sacrifice £100 each, to form a new company called "Cobblers Again 2019 Ltd" - sorry -forgot the set-up fees again.... darn.....

Carry on ad infinitum until there are no more debts.

You will lose all real businesses as supporters and sponsors.  And probably cause a few local businesses to go under.

But, the club will be otherwise debt-free and manageable.

Eh, voila..... That is how Mr.Big-Money becomes Mr.Big-Money in a Capitalist Society.... (and also, how fans can buy the club with bugger all dosh.)

Dare you do it, though?
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« Reply #37 on: January 23, 2019, 02:23:36 am »

You do love your big unattainable numbers.
At no time in the clubs history has anyone invested more than 500k at any one time and the club has bounced along   surviving hand to mouth on the good will of the very few fans that bother to turn up.
£17m would make life very easy but it's not essential as only Sunderland could dream of that kind of investment.
A fan run club working closely with local buisneses would only need to show an upturn of 50% increase of gate revenues, corporate match day takings, food and beverages etc and to acheive its immediate goals of stages of redevelopment of the stadium over a period of time and attain and establish a league 1 presence.
We would not need anything like these fanciful figures to take the first steps to building up our club.
None of us would expect us to make record signings just to hook better quality players from the pool all clubs get them from.
Steady year on year growth working with all the clubs catchment and buisness community catches monkey.
Just an opinion, based on figures pulled out of the air. Happy to listen to any realistic business plans and happy to put my money into anything viable. Just a general observation, but the idea that the club can be moved forward on 500k isnít viable, again in my opinion and quoting the clubs track record on this is a bit pointless given we all agree that our current state is unsatisfactory? One thing I can tell you from experience is that as a general rule when you enter into an area that is outside of your area of expertise it generally costs 30% more and takes 30% longer than forecast. As a general rule of course. To be honest if your proposal was the one on the table I wouldnít be investing anything, but no problem because you wouldnít need it anyway. Iím sticking to 14 million minimum to take control of the club, move it forward, cover the unforeseen and have a provable line of credit to ensure you can get a contractor to stick a stick a spade in the ground. Again just my opinion based on blind observation.
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« Reply #38 on: January 23, 2019, 04:03:26 am »

Just an opinion, based on figures pulled out of the air. Happy to listen to any realistic business plans and happy to put my money into anything viable. Just a general observation, but the idea that the club can be moved forward on 500k isnít viable, again in my opinion and quoting the clubs track record on this is a bit pointless given we all agree that our current state is unsatisfactory? One thing I can tell you from experience is that as a general rule when you enter into an area that is outside of your area of expertise it generally costs 30% more and takes 30% longer than forecast. As a general rule of course. To be honest if your proposal was the one on the table I wouldnít be investing anything, but no problem because you wouldnít need it anyway. Iím sticking to 14 million minimum to take control of the club, move it forward, cover the unforeseen and have a provable line of credit to ensure you can get a contractor to stick a stick a spade in the ground. Again just my opinion based on blind observation.

Re: your 30%s.....  Good point.  And I sort of agree (you are now tainted by association to be abused by "The Board"....  ie, the Zombies).  Except, you need to be stronger.......

In the days when I was involved in very innovative stuff (like the first horseless carriage), the guidelines on costs for stuff that you had no knowledge of was.....  think of everything you can, make it worse case, then double it to make up for the things you haven't thought of (ie, 200%), then double it again (ie, take it to 400%) as you are always over optimistic on future achievements.  Surprisingly, a few such projects succeeded.  The majority died to cost over-runs.... 

Does our board think it is the punk that Clint Eastwood questioned?



I fear some piggy banks are going to get shafted to pursue this one.
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« Reply #39 on: January 23, 2019, 07:27:12 am »

Excellent post by Fez which should be carefully considered by all. 

Whichever side of the debate you are on one thing must be clear to everyone and this is that the present ownership model for NTFC is broken.  McRichie, Cardozas, DB/KT have all succeeded in severely disappointing us.  We have to change direction and now is the time to consider other possibilities and at the very least keep an open mind until we know exactly what is on the table.  The rush by some to hasty negative judgment is unwise and unhelpful.

I think mentioning the current owners in the same breath as those two bastards is rather harsh.

As for fan ownership, I was against this until reading Fez's post. I'm more interested in this. If the trust was to look at community shares would there be a minimum investment that would allow fans on a modest income to get involved.

Also I'd be interested in what targets the club would set for managers. Recent years there's been a shrug of shoulders when we've gone out of the league and FA  Cups or been relegated without a fight from League 1. Both cups represent good extra sums of income both in terms of prize and gate money and my opinion is that the target for the team is to get to Round 2 of the League Cup and Round three of the FA Cup. Staying in League One this season would have guaranteed at least six full houses at Sixfields that we missed out on because so many poor to completly unacceptable performances from a highly paid manager and his highly paid players were simply tolerated for too long.
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