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Fan Ownership

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« Reply #40 on: January 23, 2019, 07:36:32 am »

Re: your 30%s.....  Good point.  And I sort of agree (you are now tainted by association to be abused by "The Board"....  ie, the Zombies).  Except, you need to be stronger.......

In the days when I was involved in very innovative stuff (like the first horseless carriage), the guidelines on costs for stuff that you had no knowledge of was.....  think of everything you can, make it worse case, then double it to make up for the things you haven't thought of (ie, 200%), then double it again (ie, take it to 400%) as you are always over optimistic on future achievements.  Surprisingly, a few such projects succeeded.  The majority died to cost over-runs.... 

Does our board think it is the punk that Clint Eastwood questioned?



I fear some piggy banks are going to get shafted to pursue this one.
Ah, I see you are somewhat sceptical? To be fair your proposal is quite a bit more popular than mine. Disappointingly mine appears to be going down like a bag of sick?
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« Reply #41 on: January 23, 2019, 07:37:40 am »

I think mentioning the current owners in the same breath as those two bastards is rather harsh.

As for fan ownership, I was against this until reading Fez's post. I'm more interested in this. If the trust was to look at community shares would there be a minimum investment that would allow fans on a modest income to get involved.

Also I'd be interested in what targets the club would set for managers. Recent years there's been a shrug of shoulders when we've gone out of the league and FA  Cups or been relegated without a fight from League 1. Both cups represent good extra sums of income both in terms of prize and gate money and my opinion is that the target for the team is to get to Round 2 of the League Cup and Round three of the FA Cup. Staying in League One this season would have guaranteed at least six full houses at Sixfields that we missed out on because so many poor to completly unacceptable performances from a highly paid manager and his highly paid players were simply tolerated for too long.

Totally agree.

Despite living in Asia, I would certainly be interested in investing some of my spare cash into something tangible for the future of the club. I may be insane but I'm sure there are others, equally challenged who would want to invest too.

The world has moved on since chairmen wore sheepskins, smoked cigars and drove Jags, there are a multitude of ways to raise funding and cash, all it needs is a spotty nerd to sort it out. (I've seen many of them at games before)

Confidence need to be restored, I do believe there could be a hidden groundswell of support for the club with the right "team" at the helm.
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« Reply #42 on: January 23, 2019, 12:44:31 pm »

Totally agree.

Despite living in Asia, I would certainly be interested in investing some of my spare cash into something tangible for the future of the club. I may be insane but I'm sure there are others, equally challenged who would want to invest too.

The world has moved on since chairmen wore sheepskins, smoked cigars and drove Jags, there are a multitude of ways to raise funding and cash, all it needs is a spotty nerd to sort it out. (I've seen many of them at games before)

Confidence need to be restored, I do believe there could be a hidden groundswell of support for the club with the right "team" at the helm.
I believe Jeema was once an accountant!   Grin

Yes, the FEZ post has certainly offered a reasoned perspective to consider, though personally, I've always viewed fan ownership as a last resort, when clubs are financially up the creek without a paddle.
Maybe that view needs re-assessing!
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« Reply #43 on: January 23, 2019, 13:15:59 pm »

Totally agree.

Despite living in Asia, I would certainly be interested in investing some of my spare cash into something tangible for the future of the club. I may be insane but I'm sure there are others, equally challenged who would want to invest too.

The world has moved on since chairmen wore sheepskins, smoked cigars and drove Jags, there are a multitude of ways to raise funding and cash, all it needs is a spotty nerd to sort it out. (I've seen many of them at games before)

Confidence need to be restored, I do believe there could be a hidden groundswell of support for the club with the right "team" at the helm.
Getting the right “team” at the helm would be one of biggest challenges and important decisions to be made. It could indeed be the catalyst required. More wise words from the beach.
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« Reply #44 on: January 23, 2019, 18:01:20 pm »

Imagine if we had a tidy ground with conference facilities and boxes, zero debt and a cash injection to get started. It couldn’t go wrong. Could it?
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I think someone should just take this city of Peterborough and just... just flush it down the f***in' toilet

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« Reply #45 on: January 23, 2019, 22:07:34 pm »

Imagine if we had a ground with conference facilities
Pretty sure Beds keeps telling us we already have this  Grin Grin
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« Reply #46 on: January 23, 2019, 23:36:40 pm »

Pretty sure Beds keeps telling us we already have this  Grin Grin
Had to read that twice, Conferencing  centre for 7 day a week income, not a visit to the vanarama in our blue square ground  Wink
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« Reply #47 on: January 23, 2019, 23:57:42 pm »

Welcome Joe, looking forward to seeing what he can do when he settles in.
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« Reply #48 on: January 24, 2019, 04:14:39 am »

Imagine if we had a tidy ground with conference facilities and boxes, zero debt and a cash injection to get started. It couldn’t go wrong. Could it?

If the "How to not do fan ownership" book survived the demolition of Nene Park then that would be well worth a read.

In addition to that, if we could get the "How to avoid chairmen that really are only after land and slowly kill a football club the process" book, then pick that up too.
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« Reply #49 on: January 24, 2019, 06:38:28 am »

Pretty sure Beds keeps telling us we already have this  Grin Grin

Glad it was noticed
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I think someone should just take this city of Peterborough and just... just flush it down the f***in' toilet

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« Reply #50 on: January 24, 2019, 19:57:45 pm »

https://nenequirer.com/2019/01/24/cobblers-supporters-trust-launches-project-proud-to-be/

The project is moving forward.  Keep an open mind and consider what we have not achieved on or off the pitch with the present ownership model.
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« Reply #51 on: January 24, 2019, 20:40:34 pm »

Whilst different ideas about funding and the like have been put up on here for me there are some criteria that are absolutely vital. The first is that the support base must hold the majority share. The second is that it must be structured in such a way so as the club cannot revert to individual or private ownership. I understand that the German principal has the 50 to 1 rule (with a couple of exceptions) to underpin the model. Given that legislative support doesn’t exist, the articles and memorandums would need to be carefully drafted and rigorously applied to support the principal. Whilst we can all argue about the amount and types of funding the basic principles of ownership are absolutely everything and at least initially I think the main focus should be on establishing this? I have read that options will be considered from 10% supporter owned up. Whilst it is right in principle to investigate all options, my view is that it is absolutely vital that the fan base hold the majority share and I would stringently oppose any proposal to the contrary.
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« Reply #52 on: January 24, 2019, 21:55:24 pm »

https://nenequirer.com/2019/01/24/cobblers-supporters-trust-launches-project-proud-to-be/

The project is moving forward.  Keep an open mind and consider what we have not achieved on or off the pitch with the present ownership model.

About the same as all the clubs with fan ownership   Grin Grin

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« Reply #53 on: January 25, 2019, 06:14:49 am »

My *ideal* scenario at this point, and based on my interpretation, research and what I believe would work would be for a circa 25% stake, proper board representation, and an agreed 'investment' level that the Trust contributes towards the cost of running the club, year on year.

For this, The Trust would work very closely with a local based investor/s with the club at heart. Not to make a profit from land, basically.

Such a relationship, for me, would tick all the boxes. An ability to tap into the corporate market more so, and to entice more people to games. Based on 'feel good factor', that the money isn't just being chucked into a bottomless pit. Also, I personally believe that most reputable business people that bring decent £££ to the table, would want the majority of shares and final say on matters. I 'get that'. BUT. It has to be totally transparent, if I was mega rich Id happily take on NTFC and work with the fans, providing my own investment was totally protected.

Transparency is key moving forward. For many years we had 'open and honest' Big Dave; now we've got someone who 'under promises, over delivers'.

We have had and still have various 'subsidiary businesses' associated in some way or another with NTFC, either direct or indirect. No one truly knows what these are for. Tax benefits? NTFC doesn't make a profit, never has done...so what the tax benefits and other benefits of having such a complicated financial structure are, only a select few know.

All money generated from the football club, land etc, to be channelled back into the football club to build it up. Essentially, 'not for profit'.

My issue and it is a huge issue is that we've had owners who want to make money. Thats because they are not 'fans', or someone that is happy to 'profit in other areas' by association/brand. This has been the case now for, what, 15 years? Sitting on a patch of land that could, if done properly, elevate NTFC to another level.

If that takes full ownership/majority ownership to achieve then Id also be all up for it. Buying the football club itself, and not the associated land..thats the bit I don't personally know/understand the potential ramifications of.

Some people on here talk purely from a capitalist stance. I've got my own business, have had for 13 years. 10 people on the payroll plus directors. I only say that, purely to enforce my own stance that morally, I do not believe it is right to try and make profit from what is essentially a community asset. Whilst it is privately owned, football is very different to other businesses. So for me, that argument doesn't wash one bit. If I could get my hands on a football club (not one I support) with the potential to make money, I simply wouldn't do it. Because I do not believe its the right thing to do.





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« Reply #54 on: January 25, 2019, 07:06:09 am »

My *ideal* scenario at this point, and based on my interpretation, research and what I believe would work would be for a circa 25% stake, proper board representation, and an agreed 'investment' level that the Trust contributes towards the cost of running the club, year on year.

For this, The Trust would work very closely with a local based investor/s with the club at heart. Not to make a profit from land, basically.

Such a relationship, for me, would tick all the boxes. An ability to tap into the corporate market more so, and to entice more people to games. Based on 'feel good factor', that the money isn't just being chucked into a bottomless pit. Also, I personally believe that most reputable business people that bring decent £££ to the table, would want the majority of shares and final say on matters. I 'get that'. BUT. It has to be totally transparent, if I was mega rich Id happily take on NTFC and work with the fans, providing my own investment was totally protected.

Transparency is key moving forward. For many years we had 'open and honest' Big Dave; now we've got someone who 'under promises, over delivers'.

We have had and still have various 'subsidiary businesses' associated in some way or another with NTFC, either direct or indirect. No one truly knows what these are for. Tax benefits? NTFC doesn't make a profit, never has done...so what the tax benefits and other benefits of having such a complicated financial structure are, only a select few know.

All money generated from the football club, land etc, to be channelled back into the football club to build it up. Essentially, 'not for profit'.

My issue and it is a huge issue is that we've had owners who want to make money. Thats because they are not 'fans', or someone that is happy to 'profit in other areas' by association/brand. This has been the case now for, what, 15 years? Sitting on a patch of land that could, if done properly, elevate NTFC to another level.

If that takes full ownership/majority ownership to achieve then Id also be all up for it. Buying the football club itself, and not the associated land..thats the bit I don't personally know/understand the potential ramifications of.

Some people on here talk purely from a capitalist stance. I've got my own business, have had for 13 years. 10 people on the payroll plus directors. I only say that, purely to enforce my own stance that morally, I do not believe it is right to try and make profit from what is essentially a community asset. Whilst it is privately owned, football is very different to other businesses. So for me, that argument doesn't wash one bit. If I could get my hands on a football club (not one I support) with the potential to make money, I simply wouldn't do it. Because I do not believe its the right thing to do.






some good points DC but are you not concerned that with your preferred proposal the club remains vulnerable to be taken over by another undesirable owner? If the majority shareholding is with a corporation, individual or small group and collective you are at their mercy. They could be morally upstanding such as yourself prepared to run the club on a non profit basis. However if they fall on hard times or are victim to an unforeseen set of circumstances they may be forced to sell? We could then end up right back to where we started with an undesirable owner, all the hard work in vain and a perhaps once in a lifetime opportunity missed. I’m sorry but as far as this particular issue goes i believe the club should be majority fan owned with a cap or limitation on the amount of shares an individual or corporate body can own. Therefore there is some protection against this scenario occurring. Genuine question DC, given your preferred option is a 25% stake how would you respond to someone with my fears to alleviate these concerns?
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« Reply #55 on: January 25, 2019, 07:36:56 am »

some good points DC but are you not concerned that with your preferred proposal the club remains vulnerable to be taken over by another undesirable owner? If the majority shareholding is with a corporation, individual or small group and collective you are at their mercy. They could be morally upstanding such as yourself prepared to run the club on a non profit basis. However if they fall on hard times or are victim to an unforeseen set of circumstances they may be forced to sell? We could then end up right back to where we started with an undesirable owner, all the hard work in vain and a perhaps once in a lifetime opportunity missed. I’m sorry but as far as this particular issue goes i believe the club should be majority fan owned with a cap or limitation on the amount of shares an individual or corporate body can own. Therefore there is some protection against this scenario occurring. Genuine question DC, given your preferred option is a 25% stake how would you respond to someone with my fears to alleviate these concerns?

I cant basically!

The way I look at it, every model has dangers associated with it. For example, full ownership could mean that 'hard times' could occur for a whole multitude of different reasons. The collapse of ITV digital, wasn't foreseen and was the reason many clubs struggled for a period when it happened. For example, if we had been 100% fan owned back then, and budgeted sensibly based on expected income etc...we'd have had no 'back stop' (sorry  Grin ). Having an investor/s within such a model, what happens if said investor/s pulled out/died and left their shares to an undesirable person?

The challenge with football is that it is absolutely impossible to predict future income. Whilst to compete you have to dish out long contracts, pay out unexpected compensation (when a manager is sacked/Kasim cases!), sponsor pulls out/goes bust. Theres loads.

Wycombe have just agreed to sell up to private investors (according to their website - trust one), now that was because they spent money which they shouldn't have done and hit cash flow problems and had to borrow money. And thats on the back of them being successful, getting promoted, increasing their income etc.

Like I say, there is no model that goes without risks associated. I just struggle to see how we can entice big time investors (not that we have ever had any!!!) to take NTFC to where we all want it to be with a 51%-100% model. I may be wrong, we (Trust) have a working group on the case at the time, actively looking at all of the options. Im fully, 100% behind that in my Trust capacity. Like I say, Im not for or against any particular model at this stage; Im very open minded about it.

Lets not forget though that back in the day, we acquired a stake of 25% and that worked well for a while and from my perspective, it was the happiest time of being a Cobbler I have experienced. Culminating in our early success under Atkins. Soon after though, it became difficult as that stake was reduced, the directors at the time were less welcoming to fans involvement at board level and the move back to (essentially) full private ownership started again.

In an idealistic world, Id love to see the FA give a 5 year time line to make all clubs fan owned. So each and every club has a level playing field to operate in. But in the present, whatever model we try and go with, we need to factor in the financial challenges of operating a football club where income is so unpredictable.

Liking this discussion; its a big positive at the moment. I sincerely hope that in 12 months time we can look back at this time and view KT's legacy of 'saving us/steadying the ship' which at the time was the case. They put their half a million quid in and kept us going, and we won the title. Since then though, it has been nothing short of doom and gloom, faceless Chinese 'investors', relegation, a succession of managers, countless players only here for the lengthy lucrative contracts they were given and a decaying stadium/infrastructure. Sorry to go off piste!

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« Reply #56 on: January 25, 2019, 12:39:29 pm »

I cant basically!

The way I look at it, every model has dangers associated with it. For example, full ownership could mean that 'hard times' could occur for a whole multitude of different reasons. The collapse of ITV digital, wasn't foreseen and was the reason many clubs struggled for a period when it happened. For example, if we had been 100% fan owned back then, and budgeted sensibly based on expected income etc...we'd have had no 'back stop' (sorry  Grin ). Having an investor/s within such a model, what happens if said investor/s pulled out/died and left their shares to an undesirable person?

The challenge with football is that it is absolutely impossible to predict future income. Whilst to compete you have to dish out long contracts, pay out unexpected compensation (when a manager is sacked/Kasim cases!), sponsor pulls out/goes bust. Theres loads.

Wycombe have just agreed to sell up to private investors (according to their website - trust one), now that was because they spent money which they shouldn't have done and hit cash flow problems and had to borrow money. And thats on the back of them being successful, getting promoted, increasing their income etc.

Like I say, there is no model that goes without risks associated. I just struggle to see how we can entice big time investors (not that we have ever had any!!!) to take NTFC to where we all want it to be with a 51%-100% model. I may be wrong, we (Trust) have a working group on the case at the time, actively looking at all of the options. Im fully, 100% behind that in my Trust capacity. Like I say, Im not for or against any particular model at this stage; Im very open minded about it.

Lets not forget though that back in the day, we acquired a stake of 25% and that worked well for a while and from my perspective, it was the happiest time of being a Cobbler I have experienced. Culminating in our early success under Atkins. Soon after though, it became difficult as that stake was reduced, the directors at the time were less welcoming to fans involvement at board level and the move back to (essentially) full private ownership started again.

In an idealistic world, Id love to see the FA give a 5 year time line to make all clubs fan owned. So each and every club has a level playing field to operate in. But in the present, whatever model we try and go with, we need to factor in the financial challenges of operating a football club where income is so unpredictable.

Liking this discussion; its a big positive at the moment. I sincerely hope that in 12 months time we can look back at this time and view KT's legacy of 'saving us/steadying the ship' which at the time was the case. They put their half a million quid in and kept us going, and we won the title. Since then though, it has been nothing short of doom and gloom, faceless Chinese 'investors', relegation, a succession of managers, countless players only here for the lengthy lucrative contracts they were given and a decaying stadium/infrastructure. Sorry to go off piste!


Excellently put DC, some very valid points raised. I agree that the biggest issue is funding and has been my major concern with majority fan ownership from the start. However there is no getting away from the fact that the reason we are here is because of years of being subjected to the current ownership type of structure. If we were to go down a route that allows us to return to this position it makes the whole exercise futile. Therefore despite the considerable risks and drawbacks I feel it can be the only realistic course for us as a collective. That being said I do understand and respect the points you raise and it would be stupid not to aknowledge the dangers.
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« Reply #57 on: January 25, 2019, 16:11:09 pm »

Absolutely nothing to convince me to back such a coup.
Does anyone know the exact running costs for a League 2 side, just to tread water for infinity
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« Reply #58 on: January 25, 2019, 18:13:01 pm »

Absolutely nothing to convince me to back such a coup.
Does anyone know the exact running costs for a League 2 side, just to tread water for infinity
Ask our current owners they've been doing it for over 3 years now.
Unless the club is being run to fully maximise its earning potential, which it has been falling well short on these past 20 years it'll always struggle.
A fan run club with help from local buisneses and local well wishers would without a shadow of doubt change this over night.
Thomas's ntfc or The public and business community of Northampton and county's NTFC,
Two entirely different organisations, with very differering
 hopes for our clubs long term future.
 Change is desperately needed.


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« Reply #59 on: January 26, 2019, 06:10:01 am »

I think that there are some very interesting posts on here and I would agree with The Vintage Cobbler that people need to approach this with an open mind.

The fundamental issue has to be money - if you read the recent Judges report you will see that the club has been operated at a significant loss for almost all of the last 15 years. In common with most football clubs, it has relied upon "external shareholder support". The Cardozas put in £6m to keep the club afloat over this period.

I haven't looked at the accounts since 2015 in detail but I would think that the present owners have had to support the club on similar lines.

If we take the average loss, £500,000 or so, this is an enormous amount of money to turn around from greater commercial income streams. What playing squad would you have left if you had to take this off the wages bill?

But more importantly, if the club was supporter owned, it would have to set prudent and risk averse budgets. Crudely, I think this would equate to a wages bill about 50% of what it is now before any extra income is factored in.

Money alone does not make a successful club - so it would be wrong for me to argue that because a stand alone supporter owned club would have a much lower playing budget we would be doomed. BUT, supporters would have to accept that the objectives of the club would be different from those currently. Now, apart from a few masochists, we all want promotion and success.

For example, a way to operate on lower budgets could be to prioritise youth and local players. It would truly be a community club..a miniature Athletic Bilbao, where nearly all the players are Basques..

To achieve any type of supporter owned/led club will need a very clearly defined strategic approach where the objectives are defined, supported widely and are realistic.




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