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League One 2020-2021 Season

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« Reply #60 on: July 09, 2020, 09:30:59 am »

I'm sure that I heard yesterday that the person who bought Wigan paid £41m for them and then within weeks had put them into administration? Apparently he had 'sold' the club to himself under a different name/nomenclature.

Sounds like a pre-pack admin. I've twice been through them with different companies I've worked for. Both times I've been lucky and come out the other side with the NewCo entity, but it's a chance to offload debt nd contracts and royally stitch up any suppliers, landlords and employees that you no longer want by leaving them with the company you close down. It's immoral, really, but I guess if it's a case of everyone getting nothing and losing their jobs or some people getting something they are owed and some of them keeping their jobs, that could be seen as the lesser of two evils. Just.
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« Reply #61 on: July 09, 2020, 09:59:03 am »

Sounds like a pre-pack admin. I've twice been through them with different companies I've worked for. Both times I've been lucky and come out the other side with the NewCo entity, but it's a chance to offload debt nd contracts and royally stitch up any suppliers, landlords and employees that you no longer want by leaving them with the company you close down. It's immoral, really, but I guess if it's a case of everyone getting nothing and losing their jobs or some people getting something they are owed and some of them keeping their jobs, that could be seen as the lesser of two evils. Just.

Is there nothing illegal about doing it?
Is it just the immorality of it that prevents many others from doing the same?
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« Reply #62 on: July 09, 2020, 10:43:23 am »

Opening up a can of worms, which probably is more at home with Vintage, Beds et-al on the Development thread, but this Wigan fiasco, as Rick Parry has suggested, gives credence to community based ownership!
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« Reply #63 on: July 09, 2020, 11:24:29 am »

Opening up a can of worms, which probably is more at home with Vintage, Beds et-al on the Development thread, but this Wigan fiasco, as Rick Parry has suggested, gives credence to community based ownership!

And that's where we now need to get back on topic and move the talk relating to the why's and wherefores of Wigan and their demise across to the ReDev thread... Wink
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« Reply #64 on: July 09, 2020, 11:25:12 am »

Is there nothing illegal about doing it?
Is it just the immorality of it that prevents many others from doing the same?

Fraudulent trading is when a company carries on business operations with the intent of purposefully deceiving and defrauding its creditors. This is a criminal offence and is punishable by steep fines/debt liabilities depending on the severity of the fraud and potentially improvement.

In practice those persons/entities affected often prioritize trading/working profitably in future rather than pursuing old debts.


Trading whilst insolvent is a serious issue and if the company fails the directors can face serious repercussions. This can result in them incurring personal liability for company debts and possibly being disqualified from being a director for up to 15 years. Ever wondered why the bloke running a business in reality isn't a director but his wife/associates are ?
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« Reply #65 on: July 09, 2020, 11:31:44 am »

Is there nothing illegal about doing it?
Is it just the immorality of it that prevents many others from doing the same?

Nope, it's all above board, legally at least. Look at JD Sports and Go Outdoors the other week; they already owned the brand, put it into administration and bought it back from the administrator at a fraction of its worth, just free of any of those pesky contracts and leases that they wanted to get out of. £430m in the bank when you last stated your accounts? Don't worry about that, if you can't afford your rent, you can't afford your rent - just go for a pre-pack!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-53152566
https://www.retailgazette.co.uk/blog/2020/07/jd-sports-boss-peter-cowgill-warns-of-more-administrations-post-covid/

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« Reply #66 on: July 09, 2020, 14:29:23 pm »

What prevents the EFL, or whoever the governing body is, from refusing to recognise the post admin version of the club and insist it starts again from way down the pyramid?
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« Reply #67 on: July 09, 2020, 14:30:50 pm »

Isnt that what happened to Rangers?
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« Reply #68 on: July 09, 2020, 14:47:58 pm »

What prevents the EFL, or whoever the governing body is, from refusing to recognise the post admin version of the club and insist it starts again from way down the pyramid?


That's a good question. The NewCo entity in a pre-pack generally buys the assets they want from the OldCo, so in this case I assume one of the assets is effectively the "golden ticket" of a place in the league. Should they allow it's transfer in these circumstances? Well, it's not really a very sporting way to behave, so ethically and morally I'd say no.

However, that's just my opinion - I'd imagine there's something covering this buried in the legalese of the league statutes or it wouldn't have got this far. I'd be pretty happy to be proved wrong on that though!

Edit: hmm. Having read a bit more around this, I don't think it is a pre-pack. It does seem to have changed hands from one company to another (with both having the same owner) but that was prior to the administration. It seems the new parent company then changed hands and it was the new owner of that that has dumped them into administration. It doesn't sound like they plan on buying them back out either. It sounds like the club are being royally shafted as part of a bigger game.
https://www.grimsbytelegraph.co.uk/sport/wigan-athletic-administration-relegation-scandal-4305920

This could be a case of there but for the grace of god for us, given the whole 5Usports mess.
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« Reply #69 on: July 09, 2020, 22:00:40 pm »

The blame for Wigan sits solely with the EFL. There are unethical and immoral individuals with cash on the hip everywhere, it’s the governing bodies job to make sure the league members and the fans that support them are protected. This is what happens when a governing body is totally incompetent, not fit for purpose and the national government refuses to get involved? Don’t be under any illusion, without legislation this could be the beginning of the end for lower league football? I am desperately trying not to sound overly dramatic, but countless clubs have been staring into the abyss for years and Covid is probably going to be the catalyst for a mass collapse. Everything seems to point that way, meanwhile the EFL have been spinning plates trying to appear competent whilst the National government looks the other way. It’s an absolute disgrace. League football needs a complete legislative overhaul starting with the removal of the entire board and a restructure regarding the governance of the organisation and it needs it now. The lunatics are are in charge of the asylum and no one is apparently doing anything about it?

As a footnote if I were a player in demand looking to sign a contract this summer the first thing I would look at are the clubs accounts?
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« Reply #70 on: July 10, 2020, 10:12:37 am »

This is well worth a read. Shocking if true, hope the EFL suspend the points deduction until it can be reviewed

https://twitter.com/marksparko/status/1279000646335836163
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« Reply #71 on: July 10, 2020, 12:29:14 pm »

That's a good question. The NewCo entity in a pre-pack generally buys the assets they want from the OldCo, so in this case I assume one of the assets is effectively the "golden ticket" of a place in the league. Should they allow it's transfer in these circumstances? Well, it's not really a very sporting way to behave, so ethically and morally I'd say no.

However, that's just my opinion - I'd imagine there's something covering this buried in the legalese of the league statutes or it wouldn't have got this far. I'd be pretty happy to be proved wrong on that though!

Edit: hmm. Having read a bit more around this, I don't think it is a pre-pack. It does seem to have changed hands from one company to another (with both having the same owner) but that was prior to the administration. It seems the new parent company then changed hands and it was the new owner of that that has dumped them into administration. It doesn't sound like they plan on buying them back out either. It sounds like the club are being royally shafted as part of a bigger game.
https://www.grimsbytelegraph.co.uk/sport/wigan-athletic-administration-relegation-scandal-4305920

This could be a case of there but for the grace of god for us, given the whole 5Usports mess.
[
/quote]

Yes, hence my initial comments above.

Regarding the EFL (Melbourne). I generally agree but the whole Fit for Purpose test is much easier to criticize in hindsight than administer effectively.

A due diligence on whether a potential owner is basically a good guy or not is impractical. What criteria? Geordies have been for years now, protesting about Mike Ashley (he's coming to the Cobblers  Grin) in terms of him being some genocidal dictator or at least Cecil Rhodes, when infact, he's kept the club going (in the Prem) with investment - just not enough to keep the Barcodes' fanbase happy. Fit for Purpose?

Realistically, all that can be done is to establish financial capability - no easy job of course - re-Sunderland and Stewart Donald.
I guess, some sort of commitment test/plan/requirement may at least have stopped Steve Dale destroying Bury FC.
an absolute legal minefield, and almost impossible to enforce. However, I firmly believe that we are potentially looking at the systematic collapse of the lower divisions of the football league? Somehow the nettle needs to be grasped and change implemented so that football can come out of the other side for the better? Forget the EFL hierarchy, they couldn’t run a tap? I’ve no idea how to achieve all this by the way, just running my mouth off.
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« Reply #72 on: July 10, 2020, 12:29:36 pm »

That's a good question. The NewCo entity in a pre-pack generally buys the assets they want from the OldCo, so in this case I assume one of the assets is effectively the "golden ticket" of a place in the league. Should they allow it's transfer in these circumstances? Well, it's not really a very sporting way to behave, so ethically and morally I'd say no.

However, that's just my opinion - I'd imagine there's something covering this buried in the legalese of the league statutes or it wouldn't have got this far. I'd be pretty happy to be proved wrong on that though!

Edit: hmm. Having read a bit more around this, I don't think it is a pre-pack. It does seem to have changed hands from one company to another (with both having the same owner) but that was prior to the administration. It seems the new parent company then changed hands and it was the new owner of that that has dumped them into administration. It doesn't sound like they plan on buying them back out either. It sounds like the club are being royally shafted as part of a bigger game.
https://www.grimsbytelegraph.co.uk/sport/wigan-athletic-administration-relegation-scandal-4305920

This could be a case of there but for the grace of god for us, given the whole 5Usports mess.


Yes, hence my initial comments above.

Regarding the EFL (Melbourne). I generally agree but the whole Fit for Purpose test is much easier to criticize in hindsight than administer effectively.

A due diligence on whether a potential owner is basically a good guy or not is impractical. What criteria? Geordies have been for years now, protesting about Mike Ashley (he's coming to the Cobblers  Grin) in terms of him being some genocidal dictator or at least Cecil Rhodes, when infact, he's kept the club going (in the Prem) with investment - just not enough to keep the Barcodes' fanbase happy. Fit for Purpose?

Realistically, all that can be done is to establish financial capability - no easy job of course - re-Sunderland and Stewart Donald.
I guess, some sort of commitment test/plan/requirement may at least have stopped Steve Dale destroying Bury FC.
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« Reply #73 on: July 10, 2020, 12:35:17 pm »

If Wigan Athletic was community owned they'd be in league 2. Without a benefactor willing to pour £ tens of millions in to them, it's a totally unsustainable entity.
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« Reply #74 on: July 10, 2020, 12:51:09 pm »

Maybe before a new owner is allowed to take on a club they should have to lodge a bond with the League which would cover costs for a season if things go wrong. I know that is not always possible but something needs to be done to ensure clubs are run properly.
I would love to see more fan owned clubs, but it is not an easy thing to achieve with the amount of money needed to run a club. Maybe with Covid things may change and wages and overheads will come down to a level where it makes it easier for Fans to take on clubs and be succesful.
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« Reply #75 on: July 10, 2020, 12:54:10 pm »

So according to Wigan’s fans, it looks like a Chinese gambler buys the club, places a massive bet on relegation, then deliberately forces them into admin with a 12pt deduction, in order to win his bet.

Must be a massive payoff, if £41m has been paid to date, to do this.

For the sums involved, it would suggest organised crime is involved, so the EFL should definitely investigate.

I guess this “scheme” is obviously better thought out, than Grossmans/Cardozas plans??

N.B. Anyone remember cheating against the Cobblers, when a player deliberately handball Ed in our penalty area, then clicked the ball in for a goal, which was given?? Worse case of deliberate cheating I’ve ever seen at Sixfields!! Have always hated Wigan since then..
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« Reply #76 on: July 10, 2020, 16:11:17 pm »

So according to Wigan’s fans, it looks like a Chinese gambler buys the club, places a massive bet on relegation, then deliberately forces them into admin with a 12pt deduction, in order to win his bet.

Must be a massive payoff, if £41m has been paid to date, to do this.

For the sums involved, it would suggest organised crime is involved, so the EFL should definitely investigate.

I guess this “scheme” is obviously better thought out, than Grossmans/Cardozas plans??

N.B. Anyone remember cheating against the Cobblers, when a player deliberately handball Ed in our penalty area, then clicked the ball in for a goal, which was given?? Worse case of deliberate cheating I’ve ever seen at Sixfields!! Have always hated Wigan since then..

He clearly hasn't been listening to Ray Winstone!  Tongue
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« Reply #77 on: July 10, 2020, 20:56:12 pm »

He clearly hasn't been listening to Ray Winstone!  Tongue

Have an uneasy feeling that the guy who forced Administration to ensure 12pt penalty and probable Wigan relegation..... So hence the bet - and going back to my uneasy feeling is this a potential sting operation. If Wigan rally and avoid relegation but take a hit next season what happens to those individuals who betted on Wigans apparent demise........LOL! Clearly one way or the other a lot of people are going to lose a lot of money. Not sure if the guy who has orchestrated this affair maybe a clever guy or just out to take revenge? Would not be surprised if there has been an anonymous huge bet that Wigan are not relegated so affecting a sting operation?
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« Reply #78 on: July 11, 2020, 09:20:52 am »

Wigan are not what they once were but, there again, were they ever?
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« Reply #79 on: July 11, 2020, 10:41:18 am »

SOG yes they were. Playing in the premiership from 2005 - 2013 and winning the FA cup in 2013 has to count for something.
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