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CURLE OUT.

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« Reply #80 on: November 15, 2020, 19:08:23 pm »

Manwork - nobody is saying that Page would still be here although he has just managed his national side to victory. I thought that with your claimed "higher intellect" you would have been able to see the point being made was that sacking after sacking has not worked in the past so why would another be any different this time.
I notice that you always have to resort to personal insults and profanities in your posts but I will not be replying in kind as I prefer to conduct myself to a higher standard.
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« Reply #81 on: November 15, 2020, 19:21:23 pm »

Manwork - nobody is saying that Page would still be here although he has just managed his national side to victory. I thought that with your claimed "higher intellect" you would have been able to see the point being made was that sacking after sacking has not worked in the past so why would another be any different this time.
I notice that you always have to resort to personal insults and profanities in your posts but I will not be replying in kind as I prefer to conduct myself to a higher standard.

I kind of get what he's saying though.....if we never sacked a manager we'd always have the same one!

As I pointed out yesterday, we sacked Clive Walker, Tony Barton was with us for five minutes and then along came Graham Carr......despite him taking us up a league with that exciting season it didn't take long until he found his level and was sacked when we went back down.
We had John Barnwell in charge before he was sacked....and along came Ian Atkins, who took us to within 90 minutes of the Championship, only for it all to go wrong later and he was sacked....replaced by Kevin Wilson who took us back up again, found he couldn't do it at the higher level and guess what, he was sacked too!
Then via Kevan Broadhurst, and Terry Fenwick we ended up with Martin Wilkinson...who was sacked and Colin Calderwood took us to success. Aidy Boothroys was here a couple of seasons (look at him now) but he was sacked, and we got Chris Wilder.

Every manager has a level at which they can do ok (except for Fenwick).......Curle was doing ok at League 2 level (as he has done for the majority of his career) but not so good now we have gone up a level.

Why is it that fans clamour for better players when we get promoted, because they think we need higher quality when up against better quality teams, yet the same doesn't seem to apply to managers??
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« Reply #82 on: November 15, 2020, 19:43:15 pm »

What better quality manager do you want us to have GPC?
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« Reply #83 on: November 15, 2020, 19:46:47 pm »

Ok. So that tells us he has twice as many wins as his nearest rival. It tells us he doesn't do draws (maybe because of the exciting end to end attacking football he supports!) and that he is a loser but we know that full well!

I hate stats for this very reason. They can be manipulated and are only factual 53% of the time.

I have a better answer. For some strange reason a lot of folk on here are concerned about the cost. No idea why cos it ain't our money, the club is already in huge debt, the epl are happy to bail us out if it comes to the crunch and even if we went pop we would rise again. However to assuage this concern, how about giving him a written warning? We could then get shot at Christmas when we will certainly be in the same boat. Lubbly jubbly.

The finances all goes back to my point earlier in the week about the FA Cup game that our saviour decided to throw. We made over £700k from the Cup run and so progression this season should have been paramount so the club can recoup some revenue. He decided it was irrelevant, and then couldn't motivate more than 1 shot on target the following game. That isn't acceptable.

We also got promoted so are earning more money due to being in a higher division.

To top it, we made significant profit on Charlie Goode.

The club earned a lot more than many in the bottom two divisions over the last 6 months.

Now we are in this higher division, we cannot afford to drop down again. As a result of this, survival is the most important thing and under Curle, it looks extremely unlikely.
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« Reply #84 on: November 15, 2020, 19:54:24 pm »

What better quality manager do you want us to have GPC?

I was just trying to make a couple of points.....firstly that sacking managers does sometimes work and is sometimes necessary.

Secondly, why are managers not like players? A player capable of playing in the fourth tier is often found wanting in the third.....why not apply the same analogy to a manager?

To be honest TP, I don't know who would apply if the job came up.....if you look at someone like Paul Cook for example, his level has been second and third tier, not the bottom league and did a decent job in difficult circumstances at Wigan last season. The likes of Steve Cotterill and Gary Bowyer are on the list for prospective Bristol Rovers manager, alongside Cowley, Alexander and co.
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« Reply #85 on: November 15, 2020, 19:55:34 pm »

GPC - I don't recall people wanting Atkins, Calderwood or Wilder replaced because we would be playing in a higher division and most were upset when Calderwood and Wilder immediately moved on because we wanted continuity. I think the difference this time is that KC is having to work to a more challenging budget and was not able to entice some of his first choice transfer targets to join us and some of the signings are for the so called developement programme.
We had a spate of early season injuries which have almost cleared up but Pollock has not played, McWilliams has played very little, Mills will be out for a few more weeks and the Nuttall situation has been farcical. It is not that KC has lost the dressing room as was the case of some of the previous changes so I am not sure a change would have a major effect. Having said that we obviously need to improve all over the pitch.
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« Reply #86 on: November 15, 2020, 19:58:55 pm »

Genuinely confused by the debate on here? All it emphasises is that whether Curle deserves to go or not statistically bring in a new bloke will fail to improve matters? Meanwhile it piles on the financial pressure? Many posters have highlighted survival in division one as the priority? Well my argument remains financial survival is the priority and not one post on this subject even comes close to making a case for enhancing our position regarding this in my opinion, sorry. The good news for many though is I’m not KT. However, if he has the same mindset over this as me Curle won’t be going anywhere, past history regarding reactions to poor performances or not? It’s the right decision, as difficult and frustrating as this may be for some on here?
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« Reply #87 on: November 15, 2020, 20:28:01 pm »

I kind of get what he's saying though.....if we never sacked a manager we'd always have the same one!

As I pointed out yesterday, we sacked Clive Walker, Tony Barton was with us for five minutes and then along came Graham Carr......despite him taking us up a league with that exciting season it didn't take long until he found his level and was sacked when we went back down.
We had John Barnwell in charge before he was sacked....and along came Ian Atkins, who took us to within 90 minutes of the Championship, only for it all to go wrong later and he was sacked....replaced by Kevin Wilson who took us back up again, found he couldn't do it at the higher level and guess what, he was sacked too!
Then via Kevan Broadhurst, and Terry Fenwick we ended up with Martin Wilkinson...who was sacked and Colin Calderwood took us to success. Aidy Boothroys was here a couple of seasons (look at him now) but he was sacked, and we got Chris Wilder.

Every manager has a level at which they can do ok (except for Fenwick).......Curle was doing ok at League 2 level (as he has done for the majority of his career) but not so good now we have gone up a level.

Why is it that fans clamour for better players when we get promoted, because they think we need higher quality when up against better quality teams, yet the same doesn't seem to apply to managers??

Think I get your point but Chapman bucked the trend? Not with the Cobblers tho’! Must be some Cobblers Managers like Calderwood who have  - again not with us! Not to mention Bowen! Probably have not totally grasped yr point!
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« Reply #88 on: November 15, 2020, 20:43:25 pm »

GPC - I don't recall people wanting Atkins, Calderwood or Wilder replaced because we would be playing in a higher division and most were upset when Calderwood and Wilder immediately moved on because we wanted continuity. I think the difference this time is that KC is having to work to a more challenging budget and was not able to entice some of his first choice transfer targets to join us and some of the signings are for the so called developement programme.
We had a spate of early season injuries which have almost cleared up but Pollock has not played, McWilliams has played very little, Mills will be out for a few more weeks and the Nuttall situation has been farcical. It is not that KC has lost the dressing room as was the case of some of the previous changes so I am not sure a change would have a major effect. Having said that we obviously need to improve all over the pitch.

Serious question, when would you advocate sacking a manager?
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« Reply #89 on: November 15, 2020, 21:33:40 pm »

After promotion, survival in League 1 was the aim for this season. Now the longer the virus situation persists as Melbourne says survival of the club has to be the main priority.
All the money earned last season from the Cup and sale of Charlie Goode must now be regarded as our survival kitty. We can either use that to pay the running costs or add it to the playing budget that KC has retained. Using that money now to pay off the manager and coaching staff seems premature, better to wait till the turn of the year and then decide whether to stick or twist.
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« Reply #90 on: November 15, 2020, 21:41:24 pm »

I think most people would have hoped we wouldn't have this thread but we have. The question you have to ask is "Is Curle using the best tactics, players and formations to maximise our survival hopes" , unfortunately it seems most think that he's not. We've been using zonal defending all season and it clearly doesn't work for us, resulting in only 5 teams out of the 92 conceding more. We use a wingback system despite having no wingbacks, so we use either a full back or a winger. He, basically, decides to throw away a chance to earn money from the FA Cup by "resting "players who hadn't had a match for 8 days. I could go on with other era's of judgement that we can all see, including Curle, but do we expect him to change the things that are not working? Unfortunately I don't, but I hope I'm wrong  
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« Reply #91 on: November 15, 2020, 23:27:19 pm »

There are a number of people stating that ‘survival was the aim’ for this season.....where did that come from?
I’ve just watched a YouTube video with KT after promotion, it’s pretty clear to me that he wanted/expected a bit more than just survival, indeed there were many references to Wycombe and us being a similar size club, they of course got promoted to the Championship. I’m struggling to see how Kelvins words translated to ‘I’d be happy with 20th place’

At the end of the day none of us know exactly what the Chairman’s requirements for this season were/are, and none of us know what the financial status of the club is, with the increased income in some quarters and decreased in others.....

There will always be a financial cost to sacking a manager.....we’d be obliged to pay KC if we did get rid....but only until he got a new job of course! If he was paid less in his new role we’d have to make up the difference. Only if he’s not going to work for the next 18 months would it cost us 18 months salary.
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« Reply #92 on: November 16, 2020, 00:00:15 am »

Should just point out that my understanding is that income from the FA cup is mainly driven by gate receipts and tv? Therefore the financial benefit of any cup run may have been far less lucrative this year?
Whilst labouring the point people have to understand that without spectators there is a point in the future where every single EFL club will have to shut the doors and fold. This could be next month, next year or whenever? The point is every expenditure brings that date forward, and every saving pushes that date back?
Every club would have made an evaluation of when they could have reasonably expected fans back through the turnstiles during pre-season. Of course it’s all subjective but my personal best guess is the reasonable assumption would have been around Xmas?
Basically in our business we have a rule where if you are dealing with the unfamiliar or uncertain you add 30%. Whatever you project something will cost add 30%, however long you think it will take add 30%. The premise often seems to work out when on unfamiliar ground? Given that, I would have anticipated fans by mid Feb inflicting a loss of around 2,800,000. This is based on the club losing a million a year plus a turnover of half the usual 4 million as indicated by KT? Of course this is all finger in the air and guesswork, but by my probably conservative estimation we are out of budgeted money about middle to end of Feb on even our reasonable budgetary projection?
I would guess that many clubs have not been that conservative in their projections and some would have been unable to sustain that drop in revenue should that be the anticipated trading conditions?
So then we are into how much further KT and Co are prepared to or even capable of generating additional funding? It doesn’t matter what or how well intentioned your motives are, there will be a line that you will be unprepared or unable to cross?
So the question is, how long can the club survive without gate receipts and what actions can be taken to create as much longevity as possible? Given all this are some really sure that they want to contemplate or demand we get rid of Curle and pay off his contract? They must be out of their fcuking minds, please look at the current situation and try and understand the position facing us and other clubs.
We have no idea when supporters are getting back in, let alone to an amount that will make us a viable concern? Without the significant generosity of season ticket holders we may well already be in trouble and many of them may be squeezed financially themselves?
KTs business interests may be suffering through lack of advertising revenue, turnover or whatever? There are so many variables that we are unsure of, but the fact remains that the money will at some point run out and the more you spend the sooner that will be.
So please all of you, take this into consideration when you make your demands? Getting rid of Curle and avoiding relegation should be way down on our list of priorities?
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« Reply #93 on: November 16, 2020, 04:49:47 am »

There is another consideration aside from cost, KT is trying to sell the club and has been for the past couple of years. If there were no takers when we had just got promoted to L1 I doubt there will be anyone hammering on his door when we are stuck in the bottom 4. Quite what response that draws from KT I don’t know but I don’t see Curle going anywhere for the moment. If KT loses interest I think any amount of good housekeeping is unlikely to save us.
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« Reply #94 on: November 16, 2020, 07:29:47 am »

There are a number of people stating that ‘survival was the aim’ for this season.....where did that come from?
I’ve just watched a YouTube video with KT after promotion, it’s pretty clear to me that he wanted/expected a bit more than just survival, indeed there were many references to Wycombe and us being a similar size club, they of course got promoted to the Championship. I’m struggling to see how Kelvins words translated to ‘I’d be happy with 20th place’

At the end of the day none of us know exactly what the Chairman’s requirements for this season were/are, and none of us know what the financial status of the club is, with the increased income in some quarters and decreased in others.....

There will always be a financial cost to sacking a manager.....we’d be obliged to pay KC if we did get rid....but only until he got a new job of course! If he was paid less in his new role we’d have to make up the difference. Only if he’s not going to work for th next 18 months would it cost us 18 months salary.
I don’t wish to be argumentative for the sake of it but this isn’t necessarily true .
It would depend on the severance agreement .
It’s very likely Curle would get a job straight away if he left us and so he probably would reject an arrangement such as that . His back room staff maybe less so .
I think we could afford to sack Curle but i am not sure who we could afford to replace him . The Cowley brothers would be expensive . I don’t see why people think Calderwood is a shoe in . He hasnt done anything for years . Living in Boughton only counts for so much !
Having said that , if Curle doesn’t change his Plan A in the next few weeks , he has to go .
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« Reply #95 on: November 16, 2020, 08:15:56 am »

In any business you have to get rid of someone if they are driving that business down. Performance is everything. In one week we have seen 2 of the most abject displays I have ever witnessed. If things don't improve significantly and quickly then it is best for everyone to call it a day. The costs will have to be absorbed.
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« Reply #96 on: November 16, 2020, 08:46:13 am »

Should just point out that my understanding is that income from the FA cup is mainly driven by gate receipts and tv? Therefore the financial benefit of any cup run may have been far less lucrative this year?
Whilst labouring the point people have to understand that without spectators there is a point in the future where every single EFL club will have to shut the doors and fold. This could be next month, next year or whenever? The point is every expenditure brings that date forward, and every saving pushes that date back?
Every club would have made an evaluation of when they could have reasonably expected fans back through the turnstiles during pre-season. Of course it’s all subjective but my personal best guess is the reasonable assumption would have been around Xmas?
Basically in our business we have a rule where if you are dealing with the unfamiliar or uncertain you add 30%. Whatever you project something will cost add 30%, however long you think it will take add 30%. The premise often seems to work out when on unfamiliar ground? Given that, I would have anticipated fans by mid Feb inflicting a loss of around 2,800,000. This is based on the club losing a million a year plus a turnover of half the usual 4 million as indicated by KT? Of course this is all finger in the air and guesswork, but by my probably conservative estimation we are out of budgeted money about middle to end of Feb on even our reasonable budgetary projection?
I would guess that many clubs have not been that conservative in their projections and some would have been unable to sustain that drop in revenue should that be the anticipated trading conditions?
So then we are into how much further KT and Co are prepared to or even capable of generating additional funding? It doesn’t matter what or how well intentioned your motives are, there will be a line that you will be unprepared or unable to cross?
So the question is, how long can the club survive without gate receipts and what actions can be taken to create as much longevity as possible? Given all this are some really sure that they want to contemplate or demand we get rid of Curle and pay off his contract? They must be out of their fcuking minds, please look at the current situation and try and understand the position facing us and other clubs.
We have no idea when supporters are getting back in, let alone to an amount that will make us a viable concern? Without the significant generosity of season ticket holders we may well already be in trouble and many of them may be squeezed financially themselves?
KTs business interests may be suffering through lack of advertising revenue, turnover or whatever? There are so many variables that we are unsure of, but the fact remains that the money will at some point run out and the more you spend the sooner that will be.
So please all of you, take this into consideration when you make your demands? Getting rid of Curle and avoiding relegation should be way down on our list of priorities?
As you like to compare football to a business Melly I have a business question for you, if you had a business unit head who was constantly underperforming, making strange business decisions and had made some bad acquisitions as part of his/ her P&L, you’ve already challenged them and they think they are doing as well as all the other BU managers, how long would you let them stay in charge?
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« Reply #97 on: November 16, 2020, 08:59:28 am »

Should just point out that my understanding is that income from the FA cup is mainly driven by gate receipts and tv? Therefore the financial benefit of any cup run may have been far less lucrative this year?

So then we are into how much further KT and Co are prepared to or even capable of generating additional funding? It doesn’t matter what or how well intentioned your motives are, there will be a line that you will be unprepared or unable to cross?
So the question is, how long can the club survive without gate receipts and what actions can be taken to create as much longevity as possible? Given all this are some really sure that they want to contemplate or demand we get rid of Curle and pay off his contract? They must be out of their fcuking minds, please look at the current situation and try and understand the position facing us and other clubs.

So please all of you, take this into consideration when you make your demands? Getting rid of Curle and avoiding relegation should be way down on our list of priorities?
I understand all what you are saying, but, if KT & Co were looking to keep expenditure down, why on earth did they give Curle a 2 year contract ? That's surely not the wisest thing to commit too in the middle of a pandemic ?
   Most of the money from FA Cup runs comes from the FA it self, TV is a bonus, and gate receipts unless you get Man Utd away, are only a small amount.
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« Reply #98 on: November 16, 2020, 09:31:47 am »

As you like to compare football to a business Melly I have a business question for you, if you had a business unit head who was constantly underperforming, making strange business decisions and had made some bad acquisitions as part of his/ her P&L, you’ve already challenged them and they think they are doing as well as all the other BU managers, how long would you let them stay in charge?
Er, not long.
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« Reply #99 on: November 16, 2020, 09:36:15 am »

To clarify, if you have made bad or unwise decisions without the benefit of hindsight then accept it and learn from it. However, don’t compound it by making yet another mistake in some vain attempt to reinvent or rectify history.
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