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Taking the knee

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cobblertone
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« on: December 09, 2020, 22:52:19 pm »

Here is a political hot potato on the back of the Millwall event. It had to be Millwall!  Roll Eyes
If the grounds had been in full attendance throughout do you think the players would have been taking the knee before every game without some kick back?
Interesting topic as I heard this point referenced on a podcast by Douglas Murray.
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« Reply #1 on: December 09, 2020, 23:03:44 pm »

Only ****-for-brain people have a problem.

Wear a poppie?  Yes, US won WW1!

Win WW2?  Yes,US & Russia won (but, England had stiff lip).

England just ****-stirrers.

How many blak did England kill?
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« Reply #2 on: December 10, 2020, 08:59:46 am »

This is a tough one, isn't it? Personally I thought it was initially a powerful symbol but seeing it done so often and with Sky plastering it over everything in their match coverage I think the impact has diminished to the point that it's becoming counter productive.

Out of curiosity I've actually done some skimming through the Millwall forum over the last few days and, in amongst the multitude of posts calling everything and everyone a c*** there's a surprising amount of lucid, well argued posts. Regardless of the level of literacy displayed they are, to a man, absolutely bloody furious about being called racists. They are adamant that they are in objection to the BLM organisation and some of their stated aims (dismantling capitalism, defunding the police etc) and not anything race related. In fact, when the club said they wouldn't be taking the knee on the next game and would instead hold up a Kick It Out banner there was a real rallying call to get behind it, which they did.

To be honest, I'm not well informed enough on the BLM organisation to say whether or not they are right to have concerns about it, but what I can say is after reading quite a lot of posts on there, not a single one I saw was racist. Mind you, I did make the mistake of reading the vaccine thread on there and quite a lot of it was eye-wateringly ignorant, which may suggest their researching skills aren't up to much... Grin

I actually think the club that has come out of this worse is QPR. They haven't routinely taken the knee this season and Les Ferdinand has come out and said they don't have a policy of doing it because he believes, like I do, that it dilutes the message. So when they play Millwall in the first game after the booing incident, what do they do? Take the knee before kick off and do a "black power" salute as a goal celebration. That's just snidey, provocative and done deliberately to stir up a reaction from the fans, which they didn't get (well, not at the game anyway, you should see some of the language on the Millwall forum about it!!!)
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cobblertone
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« Reply #3 on: December 10, 2020, 11:07:25 am »

This is a tough one, isn't it? Personally I thought it was initially a powerful symbol but seeing it done so often and with Sky plastering it over everything in their match coverage I think the impact has diminished to the point that it's becoming counter productive.

Out of curiosity I've actually done some skimming through the Millwall forum over the last few days and, in amongst the multitude of posts calling everything and everyone a c*** there's a surprising amount of lucid, well argued posts. Regardless of the level of literacy displayed they are, to a man, absolutely bloody furious about being called racists. They are adamant that they are in objection to the BLM organisation and some of their stated aims (dismantling capitalism, defunding the police etc) and not anything race related. In fact, when the club said they wouldn't be taking the knee on the next game and would instead hold up a Kick It Out banner there was a real rallying call to get behind it, which they did.

To be honest, I'm not well informed enough on the BLM organisation to say whether or not they are right to have concerns about it, but what I can say is after reading quite a lot of posts on there, not a single one I saw was racist. Mind you, I did make the mistake of reading the vaccine thread on there and quite a lot of it was eye-wateringly ignorant, which may suggest their researching skills aren't up to much... Grin

I actually think the club that has come out of this worse is QPR. They haven't routinely taken the knee this season and Les Ferdinand has come out and said they don't have a policy of doing it because he believes, like I do, that it dilutes the message. So when they play Millwall in the first game after the booing incident, what do they do? Take the knee before kick off and do a "black power" salute as a goal celebration. That's just snidey, provocative and done deliberately to stir up a reaction from the fans, which they didn't get (well, not at the game anyway, you should see some of the language on the Millwall forum about it!!!)

That's a good, balanced response. This is the crux of this issue (and most others for that matter) in that opinions are so polarized on almost every topic these days, which is definitely down to technology and social media in particular.

'Question BLM' = you're a racist.
'The government have done a shocking job with the virus' vs 'Boris has been amazing throughout'
There are countless examples, you'll find many on here. Social media is full of self proclaimed experts, whilst the silent majority just won't enter the debate for fear of being falsely called out for their moderate views.

There is right and wrong with little space left for reasoned debate, so refreshing to read if you picked some out on the Millwall forum!
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« Reply #4 on: December 10, 2020, 17:20:26 pm »

Just exercise discretion and choice. If you believe it is appropriate, then applaud it. If not, then don't. Least said/done... Least harm done.
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« Reply #5 on: December 10, 2020, 23:17:11 pm »

Booing is not an appropriate response at all given when taking the knee represents.

Those people who did boo KNEW that it would seem, and feel, racist.

If you take issue with BLM then don't applaud.

If the Cobblers players chose to take a knee then I would gladly applaud. It's a powerful, warranted statement.
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« Reply #6 on: December 15, 2020, 10:18:10 am »

I personally think the kneeling was a mistake in the first place.

I don't think anyone did enough due diligence about BLM as a group before blindly showing support. As a group they have been around since 2014, the slogan clearly represents them as a group. Anyone who think otherwise must have been living under a rock.

High profile members have made comments about white people being "genetically defective" , or killing people.

In the current climate I totally agree it was right to do something, especially in regards to funding of "Kick it out" or "No room for racism" but to show unrelenting support for a group they clearly didn't know enough about is wrong.

There is no issue with making a gesture in support of anti-racism, but people shouldn't be politically blackmailed into supporting BLM off the back of a slogan.
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« Reply #7 on: December 15, 2020, 10:32:15 am »

Are The Cobblers doing it before games?
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« Reply #8 on: December 15, 2020, 11:04:57 am »

Are The Cobblers doing it before games?

I never get I player working in time to know Grin
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« Reply #9 on: December 15, 2020, 11:12:14 am »

Are The Cobblers doing it before games?

We did at the start of the season, stopped doing it and I think we did it in the last match (wasn't really looking but caught sight of them out of the corner of my eye and I think they were just standing up from doing it, I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong!). Presumably they did it again in the wake of the Millwall furore.
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« Reply #10 on: December 15, 2020, 12:47:54 pm »

QPR hadnt done it in the previous game, they only did it again after Millwall Gate
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« Reply #11 on: December 15, 2020, 23:41:34 pm »

Are The Cobblers doing it before games?
They took the knee (and ****) tonight.
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« Reply #12 on: December 16, 2020, 07:36:54 am »

They took the knee (and ****) tonight.

Booing at both Cambridge and Exeter last night.

I don't want us to continue to do it and would prefer it if we didn't.
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« Reply #13 on: December 16, 2020, 13:37:06 pm »

Booing at both Cambridge and Exeter last night.

I don't want us to continue to do it and would prefer it if we didn't.
Doesn't really work for me either. Ok as a touch paper to bring something to the public's attention, but the very fact we still persist with it (and show no signs of stopping) means the campaign has not progressed or evolved into something which looks like it will affect any real change.
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« Reply #14 on: December 16, 2020, 14:07:51 pm »

I've done some more research around BLM and I'm not that comfortable with some of their views/aims as an organisation. I don't think disagreement with very BLM-specific gestures should be conflated with racism; you can be against one but not in favour of the other.

Personally I think football should follow the Millwall example (now there's a phrase that's surely never before been used in the history of the game!) and get behind the Kick It Out campaign instead of perpetuating the BLM gestures.
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« Reply #15 on: December 16, 2020, 21:55:47 pm »

I think it has run its course. Not really sure why its been going on now for 6 months, the point has been made
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« Reply #16 on: December 17, 2020, 14:22:56 pm »

I've done some more research around BLM and I'm not that comfortable with some of their views/aims as an organisation. I don't think disagreement with very BLM-specific gestures should be conflated with racism; you can be against one but not in favour of the other.

Personally I think football should follow the Millwall example (now there's a phrase that's surely never before been used in the history of the game!) and get behind the Kick It Out campaign instead of perpetuating the BLM gestures.

Very well put. It's political blackmail to be able to say anyone who disagrees with their aims obviously disagrees with the slogan "Black lives matter". Many black people do not agree with BLMs objectives. A key point of contention for many is the break down of the western idea of the nuclear family which for me is counter productive.

I am not knocking single mothers, I grew up with one and love her to bits. Although I cannot deny that her lack of time did not put me at a slight disadvantage at school. Whilst others were doing homework I was helping her with her 2nd and 3rd jobs. There are plenty of statistics that back up the fact that a lack of male role model at home increases your chances of failing school, drug addiction, teenage pregnancy or incarceration.

They are also highly critical of Dr.Tony Sewell who I have followed for a while, who for me hits the nail on the head in regards to the real routes of the issues :


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« Reply #17 on: December 17, 2020, 18:26:09 pm »

Thanks, some interesting points in that interview.
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« Reply #18 on: December 17, 2020, 21:54:22 pm »

I hope that the players vote to stop kneeling in the current survey being conducted.
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« Reply #19 on: December 18, 2020, 14:23:21 pm »

I hope that the players vote to stop kneeling in the current survey being conducted.

The players voted to continue although it isn't compulsory, I still hope that we don't.
I agree to the "No to Racism" campaign but kneeling and the BLM is a political symbol that has no place in sport.
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