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player pathway

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Author Topic: player pathway  (Read 2328 times)
DrillingCobbler
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« on: April 27, 2021, 14:29:22 pm »

I've been reading a fair few tweets again this morning, slagging orf our player pathway with rumours that some of the young lads whom have shown promise are likely to be released. Pollock, Johnson, Roberts being the 3 mentioned.

I've given this previous thought. In the last 30 years I can only really think of Morrison whom has forged out a career outside the lower leagues after being released having 'graduated' from our youth team. 99/100, clubs get it right but there will always be the odd one which slips through the net, develops rapidly further down the line, and ends up generating a big transfer fee.

I profess to not knowing much about how academy's are financed etc (VERY little in fact!!), however for me, like with most things, it comes down to money.

The way I look at it is simple. Lets say for argument sake our budget for first team players is circa 2million quid next season. I suspect it may be less than that, but you get my drift, lets work on that rounded figure. Would fans be prepared for that to be lowered to 1.5million and the surplus 500k being put into the academy/youth development? In the hope that down the line, it bears fruit?

I reckon it would take 5 years or so for that to happen, which would ultimately mean that for 5 years, we'd stand less chance of the first team being successful, BUT once we start seeing better players coming through the ranks, more money generated by transfer fee's etc, could potentially mean more money for the first team in the long term?

A long term view that perhaps the club should consider? OR is it too much of a risk? KT has said he is reviewing everything, the structure of the club etc in the summer, so should we go down this route? Its worked well for many clubs over the years, and perhaps its time that we stopped making short term signings of players who are in their 30's, have an unofficial club 'policy' in place where we never sign a player over a certain age over a certain £, avoid short term gain and accept long term pain for a number of years, and do something that the club has never seemingly done before?

This could be an interesting debate. Id be fascinated to know what peoples thoughts are!

« Last Edit: April 27, 2021, 14:31:29 pm by DrillingCobbler » Report Spam   Logged

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Manwork04
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« Reply #1 on: April 27, 2021, 14:38:49 pm »

Good point Drilling, I think most would speculate to accumulate in terms of youth players, Iím not sure where the extra cash goes?
The lads are all on a small basic wage, the facility we have is p1ss poor no training ground for the first team let alone the kids.
The lifeblood for clubs in the lower leagues is growing your own and selling at the right time basically the opposite in what we did for Toney.
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« Reply #2 on: April 27, 2021, 14:43:44 pm »

Its a great topic of debate I agree and one I equally dont know a huge amount about how it is structured. Rather than reduce the budget from the 1st team a better way might be to look at a larger partnering / sponsorship agreement specific to the academy but still get 1st team perks like a page in the program, name on the score board, prime positioning for any televised games etc. We have had some successes over the years, I'd be interested to know our success vs other clubs at our level.
If we develop players and sell them on, there will still be those that will complain we lack ambition and sold too quick / too cheap!
Also not sure how the ruling around premier league clubs 'stealing' the best young talent works and if we would be protected enough to warrant extra investment.

I hope the academy continues to be funded and grown

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Manwork04
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« Reply #3 on: April 27, 2021, 14:46:08 pm »

Its a great topic of debate I agree and one I equally dont know a huge amount about how it is structured. Rather than reduce the budget from the 1st team a better way might be to look at a larger partnering / sponsorship agreement specific to the academy but still get 1st team perks like a page in the program, name on the score board, prime positioning for any televised games etc. We have had some successes over the years, I'd be interested to know our success vs other clubs at our level.
If we develop players and sell them on, there will still be those that will complain we lack ambition and sold too quick / too cheap!
Also not sure how the ruling around premier league clubs 'stealing' the best young talent works and if we would be protected enough to warrant extra investment.

I hope the academy continues to be funded and grown


Thatís what sticks in my throat, the pact that the Prem boys can come in and take our best youngsters for next to nothing is outrageous IMO.
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Larry
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« Reply #4 on: April 27, 2021, 14:52:42 pm »

I would imagine there's  quite a few players that dont quite make the grade at whichever Prem academy they were at and then get taken up by clubs like us in the lower leagues. The Premiership clubs could argue their development was funded by them.
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Manwork04
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« Reply #5 on: April 27, 2021, 15:01:43 pm »

I would imagine there's  quite a few players that dont quite make the grade at whichever Prem academy they were at and then get taken up by clubs like us in the lower leagues. The Premiership clubs could argue their development was funded by them.

You mean like Rodgers an Facey? I think there maybe an odd anomaly but itís heavily stacked in the Prem clubs favour.
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Winslow Lee
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« Reply #6 on: April 27, 2021, 15:02:33 pm »


Also not sure how the ruling around premier league clubs 'stealing' the best young talent works and if we would be protected enough to warrant extra investment.


In terms of an investment we are not protected enough, even knowing that I am happy for the club to fund the academy maybe to the detriment of funding the first team more. I think it is an important part of a club in the community.
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1971cobbler
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« Reply #7 on: April 27, 2021, 16:25:32 pm »


I've given this previous thought. In the last 30 years I can only really think of Morrison whom has forged out a career outside the lower leagues after being released having 'graduated' from our youth team. 99/100, clubs get it right but there will always be the odd one which slips through the net, develops rapidly further down the line, and ends up generating a big transfer fee.



Luke Chambers
Ivan Toney
Mark Bunn
Bradley Johnson
Michael Jacobs

All done alright, and probably quite a few others who should have kicked on, but never did?

In response to your post though, I think league status is key, so any sign of danger sees us revert to " experienced heads" every time?
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Tabasco Kid
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« Reply #8 on: April 27, 2021, 16:35:36 pm »

https://rokerreport.sbnation.com/2021/4/27/22404555/roker-roundup-sunderland-trialist-set-for-contract-offer-after-impressing-all-the-right-people
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cobblertone
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« Reply #9 on: April 27, 2021, 17:01:17 pm »

Luke Chambers
Ivan Toney
Mark Bunn
Bradley Johnson
Michael Jacobs

All done alright, and probably quite a few others who should have kicked on, but never did?

In response to your post though, I think league status is key, so any sign of danger sees us revert to " experienced heads" every time?

I guess the point was being Ďreleasedí albeit there was a fee to take him down to the non-league.
Bunn carved a career doing very little. Johnson, Chambers and Jacobs all went onto solid careers a level or two above, Johnson being the pick in the Prem with Norwich.
Be interesting to see how far Toney can go or if heíll become a ĎB listerí. Iím sure he has another big money signing in him and will get his chance at the highest level, if not with Brentford.
Unfortunately these players have to move on to become the players they are. We clearly never get to see the best of them, or even benefit that much from their future value.
Remember weíve seen the likes of a young Kyle Walker too.
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All he had to do was build a stand.
Manwork04
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« Reply #10 on: April 27, 2021, 17:18:42 pm »

I guess the point was being Ďreleasedí albeit there was a fee to take him down to the non-league.
Bunn carved a career doing very little. Johnson, Chambers and Jacobs all went onto solid careers a level or two above, Johnson being the pick in the Prem with Norwich.
Be interesting to see how far Toney can go or if heíll become a ĎB listerí. Iím sure he has another big money signing in him and will get his chance at the highest level, if not with Brentford.
Unfortunately these players have to move on to become the players they are. We clearly never get to see the best of them, or even benefit that much from their future value.
Remember weíve seen the likes of a young Kyle Walker too.
And DCL.
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SadOldGit
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« Reply #11 on: April 27, 2021, 18:08:55 pm »

The only way to keep decent players, junior or otherwise, is to progress as a club. Nobody wants to work for a stagnant employer.
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Winslow Lee
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« Reply #12 on: April 27, 2021, 18:18:49 pm »

Unless your at the top of the food chain there will always be a bigger fish to steal your youngers
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west stand oap
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« Reply #13 on: April 27, 2021, 20:09:56 pm »

DCL was not our player but if we count loan players we also had Stuart Dallas.
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Battery Man
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« Reply #14 on: April 28, 2021, 08:47:12 am »

It is all about having the groundwork done properly, which means investment and I don't think KT and DB are in it for that. We need a good quality training academy for the kids (and first team), probably a link up with a sports college so they can continue their education in case it doesn't pan out. Someone in charge of the academy financially who has business acumen to be able to deal with the big boys if they come after our players so we can get the best deal. For me it is all about the relevant things being put in place and an owner with a long term plan for the future of the club and unfortunately I don't think we have that at present.
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Winslow Lee
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« Reply #15 on: April 28, 2021, 09:54:24 am »

Someone in charge of the academy financially who has business acumen to be able to deal with the big boys if they come after our players so we can get the best deal.

Itís too late for that, there are already things in place where we have no say in compensation and the big boys can pick up our youth players for next to nothing.
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Battery Man
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« Reply #16 on: April 28, 2021, 11:37:21 am »

Itís too late for that, there are already things in place where we have no say in compensation and the big boys can pick up our youth players for next to nothing.

True, but we do need to look at how we can get the best out of the young players and try and look at what Pish are doing, we need someone who can speculate on young players and make it work for us. It is all part of needing a long term plan for the club, which, I don't think KT and DB have. Until they leave and someone comes in who has, which is not as easy as writing it down here, then we are stuck in the bottom leagues struggling on.
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Welly Cobb
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« Reply #17 on: April 28, 2021, 11:45:26 am »

It's difficult, but the players who tend to break in and make a difference tend to be making appearences around 16/17 and are in the team by 18 - Toney, McWilliams, Jacobs, now Chukwumeka. If they aren't able to break into the team by the time they hit 20/21ish they don't tend to make it at football league level.
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Winslow Lee
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« Reply #18 on: April 28, 2021, 12:12:55 pm »

True, but we do need to look at how we can get the best out of the young players and try and look at what Pish are doing, we need someone who can speculate on young players and make it work for us. It is all part of needing a long term plan for the club, which, I don't think KT and DB have. Until they leave and someone comes in who has, which is not as easy as writing it down here, then we are stuck in the bottom leagues struggling on.

The Peterborough model does rely on very good recruitment with few misses. We speculated last year on Goode paying a fee and making a big profit, we did the same this year paying fees for a number of players instead of free transfers including a player who was scoring for fun at a premier academy with the likes of Rose, Sowerb and BAS and I will be amazed if we get a profit on any of these.
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« Reply #19 on: May 16, 2021, 16:30:42 pm »

Wasn't sure which thread to post this to but Jay Williams has been released by Harrogate after making just 4 appearances. Seems like we should trust the club's judgement on him? Perhaps wasn't given enough opportunities to shine in his time here though. Hopefully he can get some regular game time in the National League and build a platform for a FL career!
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