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guest3687
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« Reply #260 on: September 17, 2024, 19:17:15 pm » |
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PS........... You lost  |
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Melbourne Cobbler
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« Reply #261 on: September 17, 2024, 20:28:32 pm » |
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The problem is when debating law and the justice system is that people often don't understand how it works.
A judge doesn't just make it up as they go along. You can only be charged and possibly convicted for breaking an existing law. That conviction, if there is one, is then subject to sentencing guidelines. Most crimes have minimum and maximum sentences and the judge can make allowances within these limits depending on various factors. Such as the severity of the offence, repeat offences, entering a guilty plea, remorse and whether a prison term is the most effective punishment. No crime is the same which is why comparisons are often flawed unless you know the full detail.
I hate to break it to people that have it in for the current government and Keir Starmer but all the laws and sentencing guidelines used for Huw Edwards, the rioters and those that used "hurty words" on the internet were in place long before they took charge.
The fact a Rape trial can take on average 2/3 years to come to trial is a disgrace. The reasons though are many. They are often complex cases but the main reasons come down to a lack of resource in policing, the courts and prison services. The backlogs are horrendous and the results of over a decade of neglect and underfunding are coming home to roost in all public services.
Finally regarding the riots. There was no choice. The violence was spreading and threatened to get much worse. A message needed to be sent and it worked. Imagine if it hadnt. What cost then?
As I said weeks ago this is how a properly functioning policing and justice system should actually be working. Most of the people sentenced so far plead guilty so they can hardly complain. It's also well overdue that people started to understand the consequence of commiting crimes online. Free speech doesn't entitle you to break the law. I'm happy to read any examples people have if someone has been sent to prison for saying "hurty words". All the examples I have seen had posted racial hatred and incited violence. I bet a lot of people will think twice about doing the same next time. Which is surely the point isn't it?
The sentences handed out to individuals inciting racial hatred may have been completely justified, but that’s hardly the point. I think a justice system that mitigates the sexual assault of a child to a lesser degree is seriously flawed, irrespective of the circumstances. Perhaps it’s me? |
Let me make one thing absolutely clear, the Trust “advisor” is not god. Are you going to tell him or shall I?
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MCHammer
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« Reply #263 on: September 18, 2024, 14:42:21 pm » |
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The sentences handed out to individuals inciting racial hatred may have been completely justified, but that’s hardly the point. I think a justice system that mitigates the sexual assault of a child to a lesser degree is seriously flawed, irrespective of the circumstances. Perhaps it’s me?
I don't think it's just you I think most of us would happily see child sex offenders locked up for the rest of their lives irrespective of the seriousness of their offence. It's perfectly valid if people want to criticise whether the sentencing guidelines are too weak for this type of offence. I'd probably agree in most cases. What I'm disputing is the pointless comparison of one crime, the riots for example, with a completely different type of crime, Huw Edwards, while overlooking the complexities of individual cases and the sentencing guidelines each one carries. I'm also disputing the false idea that sentencing can be completely random. I was also trying but possibly failing to demostrate the stupidity of the "two-tier" claim and the ultimate stupidity that the sentences somehow reflect the approach of the new Labour government. |
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Manwork04
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« Reply #264 on: September 18, 2024, 20:20:01 pm » |
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I don't think it's just you I think most of us would happily see child sex offenders locked up for the rest of their lives irrespective of the seriousness of their offence. It's perfectly valid if people want to criticise whether the sentencing guidelines are too weak for this type of offence. I'd probably agree in most cases.
What I'm disputing is the pointless comparison of one crime, the riots for example, with a completely different type of crime, Huw Edwards, while overlooking the complexities of individual cases and the sentencing guidelines each one carries. I'm also disputing the false idea that sentencing can be completely random.
I was also trying but possibly failing to demostrate the stupidity of the "two-tier" claim and the ultimate stupidity that the sentences somehow reflect the approach of the new Labour government.
They are not weak though are they, the maximum sentence for Edwards was 10 years, it was his interpretation of the law that resulted in that disgrace of a sentence. It’s letting the children in those pictures down, and so are you by trying to justify it. |
Rule Britannia
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Peter Frost
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« Reply #265 on: September 18, 2024, 20:44:12 pm » |
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They are not weak though are they, the maximum sentence for Edwards was 10 years, it was his interpretation of the law that resulted in that disgrace of a sentence.
It’s letting the children in those pictures down, and so are you by trying to justify it.
Just to be clear to McHammer - everyone else apart from Manny fully understood your post and that it no way attempted to justify the sentence given to Edwards - unfortunately you have rattled his cage with a factual repose and his response is simply a cheap, nasty and unjust insult. Personally I’ve now made a decision to no longer engage in any further communication with his bigotry however irritating it is. |
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Melbourne Cobbler
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« Reply #266 on: September 18, 2024, 21:12:35 pm » |
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The point I am trying to make is that there is clearly an issue with sentencing. The disparity between minimum and maximum sentences is so great, that conflict when comparatively measured is inevitable. Whilst I’m certain any decisions can be defended when considering the deliberations process, there is no getting away from the fact that in the majority of societies eyes the outcomes are regularly an insult. I understand the judiciary is ultimately there to serve justice and in doing so handles each case in isolation and on merit. However, is there too much emphasis on justice and mitigating factors for the perpetrators. Should more consideration be given to deterrent and protection of the vulnerable. Justice is about balance, and if it doesn’t get it right then it loses the confidence and respect of society. For me the decision making is called into question entirely too often, and not just by the mob hungry for blood.
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Let me make one thing absolutely clear, the Trust “advisor” is not god. Are you going to tell him or shall I?
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BackOfTheNet
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« Reply #267 on: September 18, 2024, 21:21:21 pm » |
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If you read the court reports in the Chron, there's one judge in particular, Judge Mayo, that seems to consistently hand out unduly lenient sentences
I guess it's because there is a minimum and a maximum and within that there's a certain amount of discretion on the part of the judge, but it really doesn't help when it comes to the public seeing justice to be done, and to be done consistently.
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The Hotelend Grand National* Sweepstake Champion 2020
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MCHammer
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« Reply #268 on: September 19, 2024, 02:37:20 am » |
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Just to be clear to McHammer - everyone else apart from Manny fully understood your post and that it no way attempted to justify the sentence given to Edwards - unfortunately you have rattled his cage with a factual repose and his response is simply a cheap, nasty and unjust insult.
Personally I’ve now made a decision to no longer engage in any further communication with his bigotry however irritating it is.
Thanks Peter. Hope you are well and thanks for the support. Don't worry though as I really take none of this too seriously. It's certainly never personal from my perspective but it was a cheap shot by him and that's hardly surprising. If anyone is incapable of understanding the difference between explanation and justification then what can I do? The reality is one of us is debating using factual information supported by actual data and real world experience. The other believes the Earth is flat and lives in a fantasy world where they pretend to be rubbing shoulders with the likes of Boris Johnson and Sheikh Mansour. For those struggling with that....Manny....the second one is you. That will probably help you understand why I don't get too concerned. |
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Manwork04
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« Reply #269 on: September 19, 2024, 07:05:15 am » |
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Thanks Peter. Hope you are well and thanks for the support. Don't worry though as I really take none of this too seriously. It's certainly never personal from my perspective but it was a cheap shot by him and that's hardly surprising. If anyone is incapable of understanding the difference between explanation and justification then what can I do? The reality is one of us is debating using factual information supported by actual data and real world experience. The other believes the Earth is flat and lives in a fantasy world where they pretend to be rubbing shoulders with the likes of Boris Johnson and Sheikh Mansour. For those struggling with that....Manny....the second one is you. That will probably help you understand why I don't get too concerned. 😂 For the record, the earth is definitely a sphere, and yes I know Boris and Sheikh Mansour, just for good measure I’ve also been to Athor Blanks house in Atlanta and know many MPs, some retired now. Trying to discredit your adversary is usually a sign you’ve lost the debate 😉 |
Rule Britannia
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Peter Frost
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« Reply #270 on: September 19, 2024, 08:45:30 am » |
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......talking about who one knows is a reflection of one's inadequacies, quietly knowing who you are is a measure of your strength
unattributed Buddhist quote
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MCHammer
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« Reply #271 on: September 19, 2024, 13:33:26 pm » |
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😂 For the record, the earth is definitely a sphere, and yes I know Boris and Sheikh Mansour, just for good measure I’ve also been to Athor Blanks house in Atlanta and know many MPs, some retired now.
Trying to discredit your adversary is usually a sign you’ve lost the debate 😉
So talk us through when you met Sheikh Mansour. What did you talk to him about? Why haven't you persuaded him or any of these other high worth individuals, you claim to know, to invest in the Cobblers? |
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Manwork04
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« Reply #272 on: September 19, 2024, 14:02:29 pm » |
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So talk us through when you met Sheikh Mansour. What did you talk to him about? Why haven't you persuaded him or any of these other high worth individuals, you claim to know, to invest in the Cobblers? Without giving too much away, it was when he was building the training village behind the Etihad stadium, there’s a hotel, indoor pitches, a polyclinic, which the locals can use within a 1 mile radius, a 6000 seater stadium, finance for that and other green topics, he wanted to put wind turbines on there as well. TBH the only individual I have mentioned Cobblers too was the chairman of the FA when I played golf at Centurion club in St Albans. |
Rule Britannia
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Tabasco Kid
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« Reply #273 on: September 19, 2024, 15:14:32 pm » |
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Without giving too much away, it was when he was building the training village behind the Etihad stadium, there’s a hotel, indoor pitches, a polyclinic, which the locals can use within a 1 mile radius, a 6000 seater stadium, finance for that and other green topics, he wanted to put wind turbines on there as well.
TBH the only individual I have mentioned Cobblers too was the chairman of the FA when I played golf at Centurion club in St Albans.
You still sitting up the corner of the Bear come lunchtime, with your little Wiltshire Farm Foods carrier bag? And its about time that you got that cracked screen in your phone fixed. |
Were in the pipe 5 by 5.
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Manwork04
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« Reply #274 on: September 19, 2024, 15:15:41 pm » |
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You still sitting up the corner of the Bear come lunchtime, with your little Wiltshire Farm Foods carrier bag? And its about time that you got that cracked screen in your phone fixed. I’ve upgraded to Sainsbury’s mate 😉 |
Rule Britannia
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Manwork04
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« Reply #276 on: September 19, 2024, 16:24:43 pm » |
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Can you see me with one of thise bad boys? 😂😂 |
Rule Britannia
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guest3687
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« Reply #278 on: September 19, 2024, 18:10:05 pm » |
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I stood near the Queen once  |
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Bugbrooke Boy
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« Reply #279 on: September 19, 2024, 19:06:01 pm » |
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Were you with Mr Johnson when he burned £50 pound notes in front of homeless people?
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