Fûck the BBC

[Manwork04]

Verified by whom?

Whichever source you trust e.g. BBC vs the ONS for instance 😉😛

[guest3732]

So you submit your conclusions to these bodies for verification?

[Manwork04]

So you submit your conclusions to these bodies for verification?

No, they have been verified by cross examination of FACTS.

[guest3732]

No, they have been verified by cross examination of FACTS.

Can I suggest you go back to your post and re read it.  "the skill is interpreting the information from all sources then using critical thinking to come to a verified conclusion and understanding.
I have followed this process and have to to a conclusion".

[guest3734]

I have followed this process and have to to a conclusion.
Fcuk Hamas Victory to Israel. ( Hamas is an Iranian backed proxy, not the Palestinian people)

…. but you haven’t followed it very well have you? - as alway simplistic statements to complicated issues -I know this will send you scurrying to the internet to find some selective defence of your jingoistic comments so did you know Israel’s current leader historically supported Hamas both financially and by other means?

[Manwork04]

…. but you haven’t followed it very well have you? - as alway simplistic statements to complicated issues -I know this will send you scurrying to the internet to find some selective defence of your jingoistic comments so did you know Israel’s current leader historically supported Hamas both financially and by other means?

You are scraping the barrel now, that was way back when they were trying to undermine the PLO.
There is usually a red line, and that was well and truly crossed in the October attacks they deserve everything they get.

[guest3734]

You are scraping the barrel now, that was way back when they were trying to undermine the PLO.
There is usually a red line, and that was well and truly crossed in the October attacks they deserve everything they get.

Why is that scraping the bottom of the barrel- Israel hard right support and appease one terrorist group to undermine another (finally researched by you although you took your time) and wonder why they get bitten by said organisation in later years

I fully agree a red line was crossed in Oct 2023 and the sub human Hamas perpetrators do deserve everything thrown at them - but that doesn’t mean 30,000 plus women and children should be wiped out as a consequence- cue your normal nonsense “they are made up Hamas figures or Hamas are hiding in, it would seem pretty much every school, hospital and apartment building.

- even if partially true Israel’s IDF response is both disproportional and wicked but it would seem you think like the Israeli hard right in that 30 Arab innocent lives (and growing) for one Israeli innocent life is acceptable retribution.

I’ve told you before I’ve spent many weeks in Israel working in healthcare with national providers and I  count many Israeli people as my friends but I also have a close family member who has spent time in Gaza and the West Bank seeing some of the daily injustices - your simplistic views on the whole situation are frankly embarrassing

[Tabasco Kid]

even if partially true Israel’s IDF response is both disproportional and wicked but it would seem you think like the Israeli hard right in that 30 Arab innocent lives (and growing) for one Israeli innocent life is acceptable retribution.

Im curious about something. Do you view Americas response to the attack on Pearl Harbour as "disproportional and wicked", or justified?

[Winslow Lee]

- even if partially true Israel’s IDF response is both disproportional and wicked but it would seem you think like the Israeli hard right in that 30 Arab innocent lives (and growing) for one Israeli innocent life is acceptable retribution.

Surely that is a little simplistic. Firstly I don’t think it’s just about counting numbers, we killed massively more Germans civilians than they killed British during the bombing in WW2 and I don’t think that puts us on the wrong side of history. Secondly I think if Hamas could have killed many more on October 7th they would have. As for the IDF response, do I support it? no, do I know what an acceptable response would look like? no. At present we have a situation where Isreal aren’t bothered about being heavy handed in wiping out Hamas and freeing the hostages and this may sound controversial but mounting civilian deaths further the Hamas cause. Why has Hamas not built shelters for civilians? just 700km of tunnels that civilians are not allowed in during bombing. They use civilians as a human shield and store ammunition and explosives in hospitals and schools. I see myself as neutral in the conflict and it’s hard to see any solution in the near future.

[guest3734]

Im curious about something. Do you view Americas response to the attack on Pearl Harbour as "disproportional and wicked", or justified?

Good question

Personally I wouldn't conflate WW11 with the Israel Gaza war - the implication of losing the former had implication on millions of people.

The latter affects the people immediately involved but in typically not the wider global population - so probably in that context not wicked and disproportional

My argument with Manwork is he consistently only sees one side of the argument and it really isn't that simple - I also dislike simple slogans associated with a situation when thousands of people are dying

The Israelis I know (generally fairly right wing) feel Hamas should have been hit hard after October 2023 and regretably that would inevitably lead to civilian deaths - to which Hamas should shoulder the responsibility. However now they feel the continued actions are primarily to satisfy the hard right in maintaining the current administration in power, are disproportionate, do nothing to free the remaining hostages and are badly damaging Israel's reputation on the world stage. 

[Winslow Lee]

I also have a close family member who has spent time in Gaza and the West Bank seeing some of the daily injustices - your simplistic views on the whole situation are frankly embarrassing

What are we talking about? I don’t mean this confrontationally I’m honesty interested to learn Hasn’t Gaza been under Hamas rule since 2005? and what areas of the West Bank are we talking about as per the Oslo accord. I know Palestinians have suffered injustices under the Israeli Government you just need to look at Sheikh Jarrah.

[guest3734]

Surely that is a little simplistic. Firstly I don’t think it’s just about counting numbers, we killed massively more Germans civilians than they killed British during the bombing in WW2 and I don’t think that puts us on the wrong side of history. Secondly I think if Hamas could have killed many more on October 7th they would have. As for the IDF response, do I support it? no, do I know what an acceptable response would look like? no. At present we have a situation where Isreal aren’t bothered about being heavy handed in wiping out Hamas and freeing the hostages and this may sound controversial but mounting civilian deaths further the Hamas cause. Why has Hamas not built shelters for civilians? just 700km of tunnels that civilians are not allowed in during bombing. They use civilians as a human shield and store ammunition and explosives in hospitals and schools. I see myself as neutral in the conflict and it’s hard to see any solution in the near future.

All fair points - as per my previous point I think the implication of not winning WW11 were significantly bigger.

Hamas certainly do use civilians and civilian building as human shields but looking at the scale of devastation on Gaza one would imagine if all destroyed building were truly Hamas base they have an immense army amongst the 2 million people - frankly they don't.

I share your last two points - I have no allegiance to either side but I do understand from some limited experience in the region some of the whys and wherefores from both sides. I also firmly believe there is no immediate solution here - the two state solution is firmly buried - Hamas's action ensured that but also be in no doubt a proportion of Israels government were never going to entertain such a solution and paradoxically Hamas's actions aided their objectives here.

Again I think sensible debate on this subject is welcome - both you and Tabby have just engaged in that - for me one sided slogans will always get a rise from me.  

[guest3734]

What are we talking about? I don’t mean this confrontationally I’m honesty interested to learn Hasn’t Gaza been under Hamas rule since 2005? and what areas of the West Bank are we talking about as per the Oslo accord. I know Palestinians have suffered injustices under the Israeli Government you just need to look at Sheikh Jarrah.

Currently I'm primary talking about the state approved seizing of land and intimidation of Arabs on an industrial scale - actions that are deemed illegal by virtually all international bodies but silently airbrushed out of the majority of media - here we are not talking about Hamas terrorist or human shields but small communities, traders, farmers and shepherds.

[Winslow Lee]

the two state solution is firmly buried - Hamas's action ensured that but also be in no doubt a proportion of Israels government were never going to entertain such a solution and paradoxically Hamas's actions aided their objectives here.

I think the 2008 offer of 94% of the West Bank was probably the best chance of a two state solution. Isreal have shown by giving up the occupied territories of the Sinai, Gaza and parts of the West Bank under the Oslo accord at least some acceptable to swap land for peace in the past but that is done I think for the foreseeable future. As for the Palestinians will they accept anything other than a caliphate, who knows.

[Winslow Lee]

Currently I'm primary talking about the state approved seizing of land and intimidation of Arabs on an industrial scale - actions that are deemed illegal by virtually all international bodies but silently airbrushed out of the majority of media - here we are not talking about Hamas terrorist or human shields but small communities, traders, farmers and shepherds.

Ok thank you. I get that, I mentioned Sheikh Jarrah in the previous post which is exactly that.

[guest3734]

Ok thank you. I get that, I mentioned Sheikh Jarrah in the previous post which is exactly that.

Yes unfortunately that area just outside Jerusalem has been a hotbed for decades

[southofthecounty]

Say what you like about The Beeb, but it's hard to imagine ITV (Love Island anyone?) producing something like last night's  Special Forces: I Saw War Crimes.

[guest3734]

Say what you like about The Beeb, but it's hard to imagine ITV (Love Island anyone?) producing something like last night's  Special Forces: I Saw War Crimes.

Difficult watch - I always think you have to cut the armed forces a lot of slack unless you’ve actually been their situation but some of the alleged action's and subsequent cover ups do seem beyond the pale - you would also worry if it’s true how these individuals would cope on civvie street.

[Tabasco Kid]

Good question

Personally I wouldn't conflate WW11 with the Israel Gaza war - the implication of losing the former had implication on millions of people.

The latter affects the people immediately involved but in typically not the wider global population - so probably in that context not wicked and disproportional

My argument with Manwork is he consistently only sees one side of the argument and it really isn't that simple - I also dislike simple slogans associated with a situation when thousands of people are dying

The Israelis I know (generally fairly right wing) feel Hamas should have been hit hard after October 2023 and regretably that would inevitably lead to civilian deaths - to which Hamas should shoulder the responsibility. However now they feel the continued actions are primarily to satisfy the hard right in maintaining the current administration in power, are disproportionate, do nothing to free the remaining hostages and are badly damaging Israel's reputation on the world stage. 

Red point one, the implifications of losing this current conflict also affects "millions of people"

Yellow point two, "not the wider global population?  Are you fcuking serious, there are protests worldwide about this issue. Or can you not see this through the walls of your Helvetian castle? Thats either a Freudian slip, or a wind up. My moneys on option two, cos you aint that fcuking stupid. Or at least you werent, before your recent self imposed hiatus.

[Manwork04]

Say what you like about The Beeb, but it's hard to imagine ITV (Love Island anyone?) producing something like last night's  Special Forces: I Saw War Crimes.

A disgraceful programme only the BBC would get away with, shock people get killed during war, the anti British fervour that runs through the veins of the BBC is utterly disgusting.