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Should The Trust Have Invoked The ACV?

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Question: Should The Trust Have Invoked The ACV?
Yes - 17 (21%)
No - 64 (79%)
Total Voters: 73

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Author Topic: Should The Trust Have Invoked The ACV?  (Read 21148 times)
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« Reply #340 on: April 26, 2022, 14:28:24 pm »

Random I will answer another of your questions.
What would I like the Trust to do with the ACV land ?  I want it to be signed over to a fully independent supporter's representative body. One that listens to the fans and not just ignores and berates them for having an opinion.


Who would they hand it over to? Unless this is your first move in starting a Trust 2.0?

I agree with others that any spare moment the Trust have should be focused on developing proposals. The moaning can be left to us losers.  Grin
I also wholeheartedly agree with the obsession of ‘right’ and ‘wrong’, ‘Trust’ or ‘owners’. It’s totally inaccurate (apart for a tiny minority) and a waste of energy. People’s fragile egos seem to trump what is actually important. There is little room left for rational discussion.
No singular organisation is covering themselves in glory at the moment.
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« Reply #341 on: April 26, 2022, 14:46:30 pm »

There was a really interesting and quite lengthy discussion about the vote and the subsequent Trust meeting on last weeks It's All Cobblers To Me pod.  I'd highly recommend a listen to everyone.  Link below.

https://player.captivate.fm/episode/b0d63158-ea44-4f4d-b864-e588e538639a

THe numbers are dicussed at 38:20 and the whole dicussion starts at approx 28:00.

Voting figures were discussed that were obtained by a Trust member who attended the most recent Trust meeting.

The Trust has 710 members. They have email addresses for 350 of those members and have GDPR permission to contact 250 out of those members.  So they could only contact 250 members regarding the vote. 



So let me get this right.
The Trust went ahead with a vote already knowing that they would not be able to reach more than 35% of the membership unless they went ahead with a postal ballot, or maybe put an appeal in the Chron, on here, or on Facebook for people to vote on line perhaps, or was it because the board went down the route it did because it had the best chance of getting the result it wanted?

Democratic process my arse.
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« Reply #342 on: April 26, 2022, 15:13:35 pm »

Random, we're less sh1t than them is a really poor position to take. With all respect I suggest you stop with this approach and put your efforts into being better than them and showing us fans what a positive, football centric group looks like.

yes i sort of agree but can you say the same to you and the others (usual lot we all know who they are)

IF KT really really wanted to do anything with the East stand he has had amble time and money to do so (including a £6.68m Chinese bonus) and still hasn't done.

It is very galling that we, the Trust (and I) get some much crap thrown at us, take the last 10 posts or so above, some abuse personal, some at our faults, rarely any praise, forgiveness or encouragement, no matter what we say or do.

Its not about being less crap than them, I simply ask to be treat in at least the same way as them

We have had posters including you, screaming at the Trust "what's your plan" and many other less pleasant accusations and demands, whilst all the time never ask or criticise the club or owners one bit.

Sorry it just makes no sense to me (and others)
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« Reply #343 on: April 26, 2022, 15:14:32 pm »

Every fan I'm sure will agree with this principle. But its rumour vs hypothetical


well that is what we are trying to achieve - it's not rumour or hypothetical

It is what we are working towards
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« Reply #344 on: April 26, 2022, 15:23:08 pm »

Random I will answer another of your questions.
What would I like the Trust to do with the ACV land ?  I want it to be signed over to a fully independent supporter's representative body. One that listens to the fans and not just ignores and berates them for having an opinion.

Now I know you avoid and hate answering questions put to you, but.
Random, do you or the Trust think that the Trusts special advisor was correct to communicate with the rival bidders for the land ? Or was it a conflict of interest ?

well we have one, its the Trust  - also the Trust has been here for 30 years, saving the club twice, and they are the ones who bothered to protect the club in the first place with the ACV. I don't recall you questioning at the time or trying to form your own body.

It is what it is, we are where we are, please lets just move on and get this club moving forward.

How on earth is it a conflict of interest?  I would say it is due diligent and trying to protect both the club and the Trust. I know it doesn't suit your side but what exactly could he have said that they didn't already know ? 

Again for confirmation the first the Trust (and John) heard of Cilldara was mid February. They had had meeting with both the council and the club many times before then.

You do know that KT had meeting with them about selling the club and land to them?  they walked away when KT done his usual and changed the price. 

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« Reply #345 on: April 26, 2022, 15:25:39 pm »

Derek, to reiterate you stated it would not be possible to complete the East Stand without having access via the ACV land. You stated it was “Looney Tunes” to suggest the Trust would deny access. I put it to you that no contract lawyer would condone the signing of any contract based on faith and asked you to get this confirmed by John Morgan. If this is confirmed it would mean that the club are justified in suspending completion of the East Stand until such time as the ACV issue is resolved. Please can you advise if you have had this justification confirmed as accurate or otherwise by the Trusts legal advisor? Thank you in advance.

That might be right but KT is hardly in a position of weakness is he.

But don't you think it suits KT's agenda to down tools and blame the Trust

He has a history of NOT completing the East stand - he could have done so many time over the years if he was as determined to get it done as he is in trying to destroy a supporter group.
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« Reply #346 on: April 26, 2022, 15:34:00 pm »

Derek - I think the above summarises very well why so many fans (neither KT lovers or Trust haters) are concerned about the decision - hope is absolutely not a strategy and again we are all waiting with varying degrees of patience as to what the plans for the land are now - you really have to move on (for at least the next 4 months) on what KT/DB have or haven't done with the land, stand or infrastructure to what the Trust's plan actually is - they have made a decision on behalf of all the supporters so when can we expect an update?

I ask then that I and the Trust are now given a grace period - stop the abuse, stop the pettiness, stop the games and allow us to concentrate on moving forward. Even better would be that they now start asking the club for the plans and ideas for the ACV, because at some point, it will come down to a decision for the fans and the council of what they want.

Trouble is Peter, that does not suit quite a few on here.

We are working on it and hope to have a heads of agreement in place within the next 3-4 weeks.

I have outlined our thoughts and ideas.

You pick up on the word 'hope' i am not sure why you think it is a poor word to use at this point. There are many obstacles and lots and lots of details to go through. We have to explain things better, we are trying to do that, we are just not in a position to say more at this time, surely you understand and can support that.

 
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« Reply #347 on: April 26, 2022, 15:40:36 pm »

Who would they hand it over to? Unless this is your first move in starting a Trust 2.0?

I agree with others that any spare moment the Trust have should be focused on developing proposals. The moaning can be left to us losers.  Grin
I also wholeheartedly agree with the obsession of ‘right’ and ‘wrong’, ‘Trust’ or ‘owners’. It’s totally inaccurate (apart for a tiny minority) and a waste of energy. People’s fragile egos seem to trump what is actually important. There is little room left for rational discussion.
No singular organisation is covering themselves in glory at the moment.

Nice post Tone, I am trying to focus on the positive and not be posting on here but I keep getting asked questions  Grin

It would be easier and more productive if there was more positivity and encouragement, rather than mostly abuse or sly digs

I totally 100% agree that the Trust could have done things a lot lot better over the last 10 years but it is run by a small group of volunteers, trying not to spend members money, whilst trying to hold the owners to account, who have the local media in their pocket and an annual income of £5m +.  The Trust failed under Cardoza and now get dogs abuse for not repeating the same mistake.

Another question to ask is why did Ian Atkins join the Trust board?  He has had dealings with KT at other clubs. !



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« Reply #348 on: April 26, 2022, 15:45:39 pm »

So let me get this right.
The Trust went ahead with a vote already knowing that they would not be able to reach more than 35% of the membership unless they went ahead with a postal ballot, or maybe put an appeal in the Chron, on here, or on Facebook for people to vote on line perhaps, or was it because the board went down the route it did because it had the best chance of getting the result it wanted?

Democratic process my arse.

WRONG, I can assure you that there was nothing like that, sorry you didn;t like the result - but it was fair in it went to everyone whose email address we had, so was fair in that respect.

Just like Brexit, I'm sure if more people had more information they might have voted differently, but to me that goes both ways - as does those who voted and those who didn't.

Please move on, why not be positive and ask KT what his plan is for the ACV land
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« Reply #349 on: April 26, 2022, 15:46:53 pm »

I ask then that I and the Trust are now given a grace period - stop the abuse, stop the pettiness, stop the games and allow us to concentrate on moving forward. Even better would be that they now start asking the club for the plans and ideas for the ACV, because at some point, it will come down to a decision for the fans and the council of what they want.

Trouble is Peter, that does not suit quite a few on here.

We are working on it and hope to have a heads of agreement in place within the next 3-4 weeks.

I have outlined our thoughts and ideas.

You pick up on the word 'hope' i am not sure why you think it is a poor word to use at this point. There are many obstacles and lots and lots of details to go through. We have to explain things better, we are trying to do that, we are just not in a position to say more at this time, surely you understand and can support that.

 

To be honest I think the "abuse" is in the minority and I think all sides need to drop the paranoia (I myself have been accused of writing hostile posts about the trust which I refute absolutely).

Of course we are all interested in the clubs plans for the land but with respect that is a separate (albeit pertinant) question and this thread is about the the Trust's plans following the decision to invoke the ACV clause.  

Not really picking on hope Derek, and yes of course there are lots of hurdles with no guarantees but my point is there has to be more than hope or indeed thoughts and ideas at this stage - you have answered the question and have suggested a grace period of 3-4 weeks. I think that is reasonable given the complexities involved so look forward to those details before the end of May  
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« Reply #350 on: April 26, 2022, 15:51:53 pm »

There was a really interesting and quite lengthy discussion about the vote and the subsequent Trust meeting on last weeks It's All Cobblers To Me pod.  I'd highly recommend a listen to everyone.  Link below.

https://player.captivate.fm/episode/b0d63158-ea44-4f4d-b864-e588e538639a

THe numbers are dicussed at 38:20 and the whole dicussion starts at approx 28:00.

Voting figures were discussed that were obtained by a Trust member who attended the most recent Trust meeting.

The Trust has 710 members. They have email addresses for 350 of those members and have GDPR permission to contact 250 out of those members.  So they could only contact 250 members regarding the vote. 


Thanks MCH.
That is quite a significant difference to the figures 'estimated' by GPC.#
I look forward to being provided the actual figure from a Trust Board member.
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« Reply #351 on: April 26, 2022, 15:53:17 pm »

Ok fair enough Random, you just keep on in your standard way, from now on i will have no dealings with the Trust. Apart from going to games ,i dont have dealings with the Club, so that makes it fair. Remember the Trust are not doing anything in my name so dont expect any thing from me.
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« Reply #352 on: April 26, 2022, 15:59:37 pm »

WRONG, I can assure you that there was nothing like that, sorry you didn;t like the result - but it was fair in it went to everyone whose email address we had, so was fair in that respect.

Just like Brexit, I'm sure if more people had more information they might have voted differently, but to me that goes both ways - as does those who voted and those who didn't.

Please move on, why not be positive and ask KT what his plan is for the ACV land

Not at all like Brexit.
In Brexit everybody had the chance to vote not just a select few. The Trust couldn't even reach it's own membership, if you think that is democratic then I'd hate to live in country run by you.

I actually don't give a flying fúck what KT's plans are for the ACV land. It was obvious form the day the trust board took out the ACV they were only ever going to use it to cause problems and massage their own egos.

I'm sorry for me you should call yourselves the Anti-trust, because I can see nothing you are doing that is helping things go forward even though you do nothing but whinge about a lack of progress. You need to accept you have had your time in the sun and contact all of your members with a poll(if you can be arsed to something democratic) and ask them how they would like the trust funds to be distributed on the dissolution of the trust.
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« Reply #353 on: April 26, 2022, 16:01:35 pm »

well we have one, its the Trust  - also the Trust has been here for 30 years, saving the club twice, and they are the ones who bothered to protect the club in the first place with the ACV. I don't recall you questioning at the time or trying to form your own body.

It is what it is, we are where we are, please lets just move on and get this club moving forward.

How on earth is it a conflict of interest?  I would say it is due diligent and trying to protect both the club and the Trust. I know it doesn't suit your side but what exactly could he have said that they didn't already know ? 

Again for confirmation the first the Trust (and John) heard of Cilldara was mid February. They had had meeting with both the council and the club many times before then.

You do know that KT had meeting with them about selling the club and land to them?  they walked away when KT done his usual and changed the price. 


Derek, you are totally right, we are where we are. I don't see the point of repeatedly dragging up KT's inaction and faults. The vast, vast majority of fans know what they are. I truly don't think anything other than a minority thinks the sun shines out of his backside. Everyone knows he could/should have built the stand by now after the grand entrance and has over promised and under delivered etc. Everyone knows he is not running the club to leave an NTFC legacy for his grandkids.

However, that cannot be your (the Trusts) focus. You will have sensed that a number of the fan base (quite a few) are currently viewing the Trust in a poor light. Perception is reality, however misguided. You should also know that by continuously criticising the owners, you will encourage support for them. That's just how it works. You need to rebuild the relationship with the fans (forget the relationship with the club for now) if the goal is to gain support and ultimately members. In fact, to have a trust and fan base that are not aligned is possibly the most concerning aspect in all of this.
Definitely match day presence (with a stall) to rally the fans. We never see the key Trust members (maybe on social media...OK GPC with his personal hat on) actually talk about the team and football, the one thing we are all here for. I am sure one person could write a regular little slot, in fact GPC could do a sterling job to put something on the Trust forum.
 
Then the most important thing (currently) is to produce a credible plan for the ACV land. I don't think anyone (well some will) are expecting complicated site plans and a Dragons Den business case but you will need something to whet the appetite. I also agree that you have a few months for that and stuff like that doesn't appear overnight. I'd be all other the likes of Steve Massey, who whatever people think has something. Outside that I am sure you know all the routes to take for grants and local investors. Maybe time to call in the infamous local consortium?!

A genuine offer from me that I will print any media FOC....as long as it doesn't say 'KT OUT'  Grin
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« Reply #354 on: April 26, 2022, 16:12:30 pm »


Another question to ask is why did Ian Atkins join the Trust board?  He has had dealings with KT at other clubs. !



I always used to like Atko but having recently heard a couple of (much loved) former players talk about him and the way he treated people in his time at the club he's gone right down in my estimation. The words "twàt" and "bully" were used...
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« Reply #355 on: April 26, 2022, 16:18:54 pm »

Derek, you are totally right, we are where we are. I don't see the point of repeatedly dragging up KT's inaction and faults. The vast, vast majority of fans know what they are. I truly don't think anything other than a minority thinks the sun shines out of his backside. Everyone knows he could/should have built the stand by now after the grand entrance and has over promised and under delivered etc. Everyone knows he is not running the club to leave an NTFC legacy for his grandkids.

However, that cannot be your (the Trusts) focus. You will have sensed that a number of the fan base (quite a few) are currently viewing the Trust in a poor light. Perception is reality, however misguided. You should also know that by continuously criticising the owners, you will encourage support for them. That's just how it works. You need to rebuild the relationship with the fans (forget the relationship with the club for now) if the goal is to gain support and ultimately members. In fact, to have a trust and fan base that are not aligned is possibly the most concerning aspect in all of this.
Definitely match day presence (with a stall) to rally the fans. We never see the key Trust members (maybe on social media...OK GPC with his personal hat on) actually talk about the team and football, the one thing we are all here for. I am sure one person could write a regular little slot, in fact GPC could do a sterling job to put something on the Trust forum.
 
Then the most important thing (currently) is to produce a credible plan for the ACV land. I don't think anyone (well some will) are expecting complicated site plans and a Dragons Den business case but you will need something to whet the appetite. I also agree that you have a few months for that and stuff like that doesn't appear overnight. I'd be all other the likes of Steve Massey, who whatever people think has something. Outside that I am sure you know all the routes to take for grants and local investors. Maybe time to call in the infamous local consortium?!

A genuine offer from me that I will print any media FOC....as long as it doesn't say 'KT OUT'  Grin

Great post Tone, fully behind all of that.
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« Reply #356 on: April 26, 2022, 16:21:26 pm »

I always used to like Atko but having recently heard a couple of (much loved) former players talk about him and the way he treated people in his time at the club he's gone right down in my estimation. The words "twàt" and "bully" were used...
TBF you find me a manager that keeps a whole squad happy, I think it’s very difficult to keep a dressing room happy.
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« Reply #357 on: April 26, 2022, 16:34:29 pm »

I always used to like Atko but having recently heard a couple of (much loved) former players talk about him and the way he treated people in his time at the club he's gone right down in my estimation. The words "twàt" and "bully" were used...

You really mean, I used to like Atko until he joined the Trust !!!!!


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« Reply #358 on: April 26, 2022, 16:42:05 pm »

Derek, you are totally right, we are where we are. I don't see the point of repeatedly dragging up KT's inaction and faults. The vast, vast majority of fans know what they are. I truly don't think anything other than a minority thinks the sun shines out of his backside. Everyone knows he could/should have built the stand by now after the grand entrance and has over promised and under delivered etc. Everyone knows he is not running the club to leave an NTFC legacy for his grandkids.

However, that cannot be your (the Trusts) focus. You will have sensed that a number of the fan base (quite a few) are currently viewing the Trust in a poor light. Perception is reality, however misguided. You should also know that by continuously criticising the owners, you will encourage support for them. That's just how it works. You need to rebuild the relationship with the fans (forget the relationship with the club for now) if the goal is to gain support and ultimately members. In fact, to have a trust and fan base that are not aligned is possibly the most concerning aspect in all of this.
Definitely match day presence (with a stall) to rally the fans. We never see the key Trust members (maybe on social media...OK GPC with his personal hat on) actually talk about the team and football, the one thing we are all here for. I am sure one person could write a regular little slot, in fact GPC could do a sterling job to put something on the Trust forum.
 
Then the most important thing (currently) is to produce a credible plan for the ACV land. I don't think anyone (well some will) are expecting complicated site plans and a Dragons Den business case but you will need something to whet the appetite. I also agree that you have a few months for that and stuff like that doesn't appear overnight. I'd be all other the likes of Steve Massey, who whatever people think has something. Outside that I am sure you know all the routes to take for grants and local investors. Maybe time to call in the infamous local consortium?!

A genuine offer from me that I will print any media FOC....as long as it doesn't say 'KT OUT'  Grin


Thank Tone, really appreciate your offer, is that from your print room you showed me?  so we could get some graphics done if we needed them? 

I have said that the Trust should try to talk to the fans and not at them ( yes I know all of you will be spitting your coffee out right now LOL ) and have said about talking about the game, players etc
even if it is done talking about stuff from the past rather than current stuff

I know that it is all about the football for most (for me I am more into the business of the club and getting it better, so the football is better for everyone - sorry it's just me - done all the games / grounds - just could not get excited about all the loan players and 1 year wonders (or dross)

Yeah a stall at the ground, not a good idea at the minute, lol. would becoming a ducking stall at best and a bomb site at worst  Grin Grin

But seriously I hope we are able to have an open evening where we can present the plans etc etc
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« Reply #359 on: April 26, 2022, 16:43:13 pm »

To be honest I think the "abuse" is in the minority and I think all sides need to drop the paranoia (I myself have been accused of writing hostile posts about the trust which I refute absolutely).

Of course we are all interested in the clubs plans for the land but with respect that is a separate (albeit pertinant) question and this thread is about the the Trust's plans following the decision to invoke the ACV clause.  

Not really picking on hope Derek, and yes of course there are lots of hurdles with no guarantees but my point is there has to be more than hope or indeed thoughts and ideas at this stage - you have answered the question and have suggested a grace period of 3-4 weeks. I think that is reasonable given the complexities involved so look forward to those details before the end of May  

Thanks Peter, will do
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