NHS

[Manwork04]

But the Tory witch is dead! Ding! Dong!

Ahh the voice of a true Labour Party supporter absolutely moronic.

[Worthless Recluse]

We're all just a bunch of miserable old men.
I wonder what made him delete his account?...

[EB Claret]

Ahh the voice of a true Labour Party supporter absolutely moronic.

Ahh the voice of a true Tory Party supporter absolutely moronic.

[DavCobb]

I do hope someone (i.e. labour) start getting to grips with the current state of it.

I've just witnessed a couple of weeks from hell with a very close, dear elderly neighbour passing away at home. Someone was who pretty able bodied and extremely sociable two months ago. He had the option a fortnight ago to go to hospital but I visited him there a few weeks back and it was a seriously grim experience. I am not surprised he chose to stay at home and his bladder/bowel infections quickly moved to palliative care. His doctor in hospital even said to his son "if it was my dad I'd want him at home." He was given the wrong antibiotics in hospital, misdiagnosed and either in small waiting booths or wards full of very sad cases where food was being thrown around and generally horrible environments.
The last two weeks at home were hit and miss but shout out to Marie Curie and some overnight sitters who are truly angels. One wasn't happy with the day time care and propped him up, shaved him and applied some nice smellies. A lot of the drug administration seemed to be reactive rather than proactive and one night I was helping to pin him to the bed waiting for someone to arrive to administer his next sedative.
He finally peacefully passed a week to the day without any fluids or food. That is where I believe medicine should step in IMO.

It was heartbreaking and terrifying with my own elderly parents, plus the fact it makes you reflect on your own mortality.
I think I'll be popping the 'good stuff' if it gets that bad and the worst thing is this experience is probably as good as it gets for most unless you pass suddenly.
I've certainly learnt a lot about the system and processes involved when it comes to that time, including waiting until September to pay our final respects.

[Manwork04]

I do hope someone (i.e. labour) start getting to grips with the current state of it.

I've just witnessed a couple of weeks from hell with a very close, dear elderly neighbour passing away at home. Someone was who pretty able bodied and extremely sociable two months ago. He had the option a fortnight ago to go to hospital but I visited him there a few weeks back and it was a seriously grim experience. I am not surprised he chose to stay at home and his bladder/bowel infections quickly moved to palliative care. His doctor in hospital even said to his son "if it was my dad I'd want him at home." He was given the wrong antibiotics in hospital, misdiagnosed and either in small waiting booths or wards full of very sad cases where food was being thrown around and generally horrible environments.
The last two weeks at home were hit and miss but shout out to Marie Curie and some overnight sitters who are truly angels. One wasn't happy with the day time care and propped him up, shaved him and applied some nice smellies. A lot of the drug administration seemed to be reactive rather than proactive and one night I was helping to pin him to the bed waiting for someone to arrive to administer his next sedative.
He finally peacefully passed a week to the day without any fluids or food. That is where I believe medicine should step in IMO.

It was heartbreaking and terrifying with my own elderly parents, plus the fact it makes you reflect on your own mortality.
I think I'll be popping the 'good stuff' if it gets that bad and the worst thing is this experience is probably as good as it gets for most unless you pass suddenly.
I've certainly learnt a lot about the system and processes involved when it comes to that time, including waiting until September to pay our final respects.

Really sorry to hear that, sound horrendous, that’s the current state of the NHS, something that was designed in the 40’s, not fit for purpose and needs privatisation.

[guest3687]

Access to healthcare is a universal right, it shouldn’t be decided by how much an individual can afford or what an insurance company decides! Privatisation has worked really well for the utility companies, the trains and anything else Thatcher et al sold off hasn’t it? Grubby mitts off our NHS!

[Melbourne Cobbler]

Access to healthcare is a universal right, it shouldn’t be decided by how much an individual can afford or what an insurance company decides! Privatisation has worked really well for the utility companies, the trains and anything else Thatcher et al sold off hasn’t it? Grubby mitts off our NHS!

As opposed to what the government budget can afford?

Sorry, just playing devils advocate.

[guest3687]

As opposed to what the government budget can afford?

Sorry, just playing devils advocate.

We all pay into the NHS, and sometimes devils advocates need to shut it! Ask the average US diabetic how much they pay for insulin, ask the average American how much they pay for an emergency ambulance, then ask them who pays for it when the insurance company says no or they lose their job and any attached benefits. I worked for the NHS for 30 years, it isn’t perfect but I’ll take it anytime over a profit driven private market like the US system.

[Melbourne Cobbler]

We all pay into the NHS, and sometimes devils advocates need to shut it! Ask the average US diabetic how much they pay for insulin, ask the average American how much they pay for an emergency ambulance, then ask them who pays for it when the insurance company says no or they lose their job and any attached benefits. I worked for the NHS for 30 years, it isn’t perfect but I’ll take it anytime over a profit driven private market like the US system.

Well, tbf after the end of life treatment my parents got it was necessary to be quite vocal. When you've got the chief registrar personally apologising to you over the standard of care provided it does affect your opinion. With that and my comparative experience here I have my doubts about it. However, it would be wrong to say I think it's a total write off even though my judgment is far from impartial, I'm still quite emotional about it all if Im honest.

[Winslow Lee]

I don’t think there is anything wrong with accepting that the world has changed significantly since the inception of the NHS and taking a good hard look at the quality of healthcare we want as a nation and how we should fund it. Increases in life expectancy and advances in treatments have put a huge strain on the NHS and just trying to paper over the cracks is not a solution. Just this week a new treatment was approved that cost £1.6m a shot. It’s no slight on the hardworking and dedicated people who work within it, who deserve better pay and resources.

[Bingers]

We all pay into the NHS, and sometimes devils advocates need to shut it! Ask the average US diabetic how much they pay for insulin, ask the average American how much they pay for an emergency ambulance, then ask them who pays for it when the insurance company says no or they lose their job and any attached benefits. I worked for the NHS for 30 years, it isn’t perfect but I’ll take it anytime over a profit driven private market like the US system.

Hear, hear.

[Bingers]

I don’t think there is anything wrong with accepting that the world has changed significantly since the inception of the NHS and taking a good hard look at the quality of healthcare we want as a nation and how we should fund it. Increases in life expectancy and advances in treatments have put a huge strain on the NHS and just trying to paper over the cracks is not a solution. Just this week a new treatment was approved that cost £1.6m a shot. It’s no slight on the hardworking and dedicated people who work within it, who deserve better pay and resources.

Hear, hear.

[guest3474]

It's an unresolvable debate but there are certain aspects that are definitely true -

As Manny says (see we occasionally agree) - the NHS was designed at a time when healthcare costs and sophistication were completely different so to expect the same model to remain appropriate is optimistic to say the least. As I've said many times people simply do not understand the true cost of cradle to grave healthcare cost and until that is actually understood and accepted we will not progress to a better model.

The right of centre view is of course to privatise it - true costs are understood and in their view a competitive market encourages efficiency - however the downside is the cost to people of modest income plus the fact private markets frequently are driven by profitability and quality of the service can definitely be compromised (Just look at the s***e in the rivers)

The left of centre view is keep it free at the point of care - great in principle but it still has to be funded somehow - NI certainly doesn't cover it and people will be shocked at what is really required. Also the current NHS is a monster - I certainly I don't accept its a haven for the workshy - in fact for the vast majority of employees just the opposite but it's size means it's suffocated by bureaucracy and lack of efficiency in certain areas is frightening.

.....so as alway the solution lies somewhere between the two but it will require a level of courage that successive governments have not had the balls to address and I unfortunately see no signs of anything changing in the medium term

[DrillingCobbler]

The first thing that should happen (said this for years) is that it needs to be taken out of politics. A completely politically neutral body should be formed to run the bloody thing. We have got to get away from blaming politicians for its failings. Its too emotive. The comments on here (defending it) shows that. 'Our NHS'. Id rebrand the bloody thing, its simply not fit for purpose. No sod knows how much it would cost to get it better.

I've got a problem with my leg at the minute, dunno what it is but its been going on for 4 months. Severe cramp, think it might be a blood clot. Anyway, I finally called the doctors yesterday. Held for 30 minutes. Was told to call back next Tuesday morning between 8am and midday to make an appointment. They couldn't make me one on the phone (she explained but it made zero sense) - didn't ask my name, what my issue was etc. I was quite pushy but not rude. But got absolutely nowhere.

I could give countless examples of my Mum having shocking care but its not overly relevant. Other than to say I know how bad it is, and has been for years. So much inefficiency. They used Covid to make it even worse. Its virtually impossible to see a doctor.

Yet this stuff isn't discussed in the MSM, or indeed in the commons. Its as if its all being covered up. To suit the establishments agenda.

There simply has to be a proper two tiered system put in place to take the strain away from the free health care aspect. It is unsustainable but 'we' cant talk about it can we because ITS OUR NHUS, WE ARE SO BLOODY PROUD OF IT (APPARENTLY) AND EVERYONE CONNECTED WITH IT IS WONDERFUL!

[BackOfTheNet]

The left of centre view is keep it free at the point of care - great in principle but it still has to be funded somehow - NI certainly doesn't cover it and people will be shocked at what is really required. Also the current NHS is a monster - I certainly I don't accept its a haven for the workshy - in fact for the vast majority of employees just the opposite but it's size means it's suffocated by bureaucracy and lack of efficiency in certain areas is frightening.

In a nutshell, that's precisely it. Some of the stories of what my wife has witnessed first hand while working within the NHS are scarcely believable.

Not to knock the concept or the poor buggers at the sharp end, but the way it's run and the layers of red tape that have to be followed make it all unbelievably inefficient (and we're not talking where lives are at stake here, just petty bureaucracy when trying to get the simplest of things done)

[Bingers]

Not to knock the concept or the poor buggers at the sharp end, but the way it's run and the layers of red tape that have to be followed make it all unbelievably inefficient (and we're not talking where lives are at stake here, just petty bureaucracy when trying to get the simplest of things done)

I wonder how much of this is down to a desire to be seen to be providing "value for money". Sometimes things just need to be done quickly, whether it is the cheapest way or not. Sometimes the best people need to be snapped up regardless of whether there has been a full recruitment process. Not everything needs to go out to a tendering process if the old supplier has been doing a perfectly good job. Just get on with it.

[BackOfTheNet]

I wonder how much of this is down to a desire to be seen to be providing "value for money". Sometimes things just need to be done quickly, whether it is the cheapest way or not. Sometimes the best people need to be snapped up regardless of whether there has been a full recruitment process. Not everything needs to go out to a tendering process if the old supplier has been doing a perfectly good job. Just get on with it.

From what I've seen, a lot of it is due to everything having to be "fair", which seems to be interpreted as being exactly the same for everyone.

I've said this one before - at one point my wife's manager was on a secondment to the role. She took over a failing team and turned it around, building a strong team and earning everyone's admiration and respect. She really wanted the role on a permanent basis.

The fair and sensible thing would have been to give her the job because she'd proved herself.

That wasn't fair on everyone else though, so it went to a full recruitment process that she had to go through along with everyone else. They also wouldn't take into account her achievements in the role because that would put all the other applicants at a disadvantage.

All interviewees were given exactly the same set of questions and the job went to the person who gave the best answers. Inevitably, someone else was judged to have given better answers and was given the job.

She (rightly) took umbridge and left, an inferior manager was put into place and half the team moved on as well.

So all that cost and effort, a significant weakening of a team and all of it could have been avoided by just giving the job to the person who'd proved themselves capable of doing it!

It brings to mind this illustration showing the difference between equality and equity - sometimes real fairness doesn't involve treating everyone the same.

[Winslow Lee]

So Labour have come out and said that the NHS is not fit for purpose and needs major reform, who knew!!. Finally someone has come out and said it. Unlike Labour though I don’t just blame the conservatives and still worry the government don’t have the guts to make the seismic changes needed because of how unpopular it will be with the general public. The Tories were too scared and happy to just let things slide into the mess it is today.

[MCHammer]

The reality is the NHS much like all the other public services are going to take years to turn around after the damage that's been done by the Conservatives and then the pandemic.  I actually think it's politicly fair for Labour, during these initial months, to point out the failings of the previous government  The damage that's been done needs to be laid out for all to see as people tend to have short memories.

However Labour have got to find some quick wins as well.  I don't expect miracles but you need to demonstrate that changes you are making are having an effect even in small measures that will demonstrably grow over time.

I'm just enjoying these moments of actually having people govern and make decisions!

[Winslow Lee]

The reality is the NHS much like all the other public services are going to take years to turn around after the damage that's been done by the Conservatives and then the pandemic.  I actually think it's politicly fair for Labour, during these initial months, to point out the failings of the previous government  The damage that's been done needs to be laid out for all to see as people tend to have short memories.

However Labour have got to find some quick wins as well.  I don't expect miracles but you need to demonstrate that changes you are making are having an effect even in small measures that will demonstrably grow over time.

I'm just enjoying these moments of actually having people govern and make decisions!

Labour coming in and saying everything is a complete mess was an inevitable as every new football manager coming in and saying the squad wasn’t fit. Don’t get me wrong, I detest the conservatives and Labour aren’t wrong that a lot of public sectors are a shambles. I guess the point I’m making is that the sort of changes that will be needed not just to slow the decline but to turn things round will be very unpopular with the public and I’m not just talking about raising taxes to throw money at it. They have made a start with the winter fuel allowance going to some but other changes needed will see far more in terms of a revolt from the public, media and a lot of their party. Dare they make these changes I doubt it!.