Gender and Sex

[DavCobb]

This case was pretty close to a good friend.

https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2024/jan/22/open-university-academic-wins-tribunal-case-over-gender-critical-views

The OU is a ‘strange’ place, stuck in the dark ages in many respects and this caused a stir.

Views on women with a penis?

[Melbourne Cobbler]

This case was pretty close to a good friend.

https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2024/jan/22/open-university-academic-wins-tribunal-case-over-gender-critical-views

The OU is a ‘strange’ place, stuck in the dark ages in many respects and this caused a stir.

Views on women with a penis?

Honestly, what people choose to do or what to be has nothing to do with me. If they’re happy, and also tolerant and accepting of everyone, good luck to them.

[singcobb]

Honestly, what people choose to do or what to be has nothing to do with me. If they’re happy, and also tolerant and accepting of everyone, good luck to them.

I agree, but when they start ramming there LBGTi'mateapot s*** down the throats of primary school children in what are basically pornographic displays I have a huge problem with it.

[Manwork04]

I agree, but when they start ramming there LBGTi'mateapot s*** down the throats of primary school children in what are basically pornographic displays I have a huge problem with it.

+1 Why the fcuk do they need a parade, I couldn’t give a f*** who they want to shag but I don’t need it rammed down my throat or cooperates have rainbow inclusion days, fcuk off what about a white heterosexual day?

[Bingers]

want to shag but I don’t need it rammed down my throat

Sounds like you do. Have you felt frustrated recently Manny? It's OK, you are amongst friends here. We stand with you, whatever your feelings are.

[Tabasco Kid]

+1 Why the fcuk do they need a parade, I couldn’t give a f*** who they want to shag but I don’t need it rammed down my throat or cooperates have rainbow inclusion days, fcuk off what about a white heterosexual day?

[Jim Hall Fixit]

Hark what’s that I hear …..
Another Fcukin dog whistle.
Who gives a s*** - live and let live. Most of us have important things to contemplate at night like paying my ever increasing mortgage, paying the gas bill, worrying about getting sick, not sure how long my mothers money will last if she goes in a home, what the fcuk will Israel do next, will my son ever be able to buy his own house, what happens to our country’s security if the Donald wins, how safe is my teenage grandson when he’s out at night.
But hey, let’s all worry about inconsequential crap like gender politics, asylum seekers, BLM, Prince Harry and Fcukin ULEZ!

[guest3667]

Hark what’s that I hear …..
Another Fcukin dog whistle.
Who gives a s*** - live and let live. Most of us have important things to contemplate at night like paying my ever increasing mortgage, paying the gas bill, worrying about getting sick, not sure how long my mothers money will last if she goes in a home, what the fcuk will Israel do next, will my son ever be able to buy his own house, what happens to our country’s security if the Donald wins, how safe is my teenage grandson when he’s out at night.
But hey, let’s all worry about inconsequential crap like gender politics, asylum seekers, BLM, Prince Harry and Fcukin ULEZ!

Don’t forget the climate change hoax! 😂

[guest3667]

+1 Why the fcuk do they need a parade, I couldn’t give a f*** who they want to shag but I don’t need it rammed down my throat or cooperates have rainbow inclusion days, fcuk off what about a white heterosexual day?

Feeling oppressed you poor white heterosexual?

[Upteyn]

I’m a man and I don’t get any… Didn’t realise we would need to answer such personal questions in here tbh!

Next subject!!!

[DavCobb]

TBF it was a stretch to ask for a stance on women with penises on here. 

[therealpattcobb]

+1 Why the fcuk do they need a parade, I couldn’t give a f*** who they want to shag but I don’t need it rammed down my throat or cooperates have rainbow inclusion days, fcuk off what about a white heterosexual day?

People like you dear, that's why we need a parade.

I'm guessing you would be pleased that Manchester, Birmingham and Brighton pride's are huge commercial operations that make lots of money.

[BackOfTheNet]

Like most things, I think this is pretty nuanced and there isn't a "right" or "wrong" answer. I've no doubt that gender dysphoria is a thing. I've personally known two people who have fully transitioned from male to female and I've nothing but respect for them for going through the process they did, braving social stigma and enduring a lengthy evaluation process and living as a woman for a long period before surgery was even an option. They both did it though and were a lot happier after having done it, so fair play to them.

In these more enlightened times I think it's entirely likely that more people who feel this way are comfortable to express it rather than keep it bottled up, as they are less likely to face public ridicule for doing so. I will admit to being quite skeptical about the sheer numbers we seem to be seeing though, particularly amongst young people. From talking to my kids it seems that there are fairly significant numbers of kids in their school that identify as trans, and we're talking several people in each year group. I'm also aware of several kids who were trans and now seemingly aren't. I think there's a bit of a fad for this at the moment; in the past we've seen punks and goths and emos, now it seems the way to mark yourself out as a bit different is to be trans. If this is the case, I think it's a bit sad because it diminishes things for those who genuinely experience gender dysphoria.

I also think this makes the whole debate about women's toilets and changing facilities a little bit tricky to navigate, so I'm not going to try!

To be honest, there are only two aspects I feel strongly about in the whole debate. Firstly is protecting the integrity of women's sport. As far as I'm concerned, however people want to live their lives is up to them as long as it doesn't affect anyone else, but there's no way people who were born male should be allowed to compete against those who were born female in physically demanding sports.

Even if they've fully transitioned, if they've gone through puberty as a man then they've put on size and muscle mass and that doesn't go away. It's hugely unfair on women competitors who work as hard as male athletes to get to the top of their game to then find they are competing against bog standard male competitors who have changed sex (or just decided to change their pronouns) who carry a massive physical advantage over them. Where's the incentive to compete?

If trans athletes want to compete then of course they should be accomodated, but it should be in a new class, not at the expense of female athletes.

The second is in the poisonous nature of the debate it seems to generate when anyone (particularly a woman, it seems) dares to question anything in this arena. I really, really hate the phrase "TERF". It belongs with gammon, boomer and Karen as terms that are used to stifle debate. Just because someone fits a certain archetype it doesn't completely invalidate their opinion on everything. I genuinely believe that most people have a live and let live attitude, but when people get attacked and accused of bigotry for questioning or, heaven forbid, using the wrong pronoun it sets people's back up, and that, ironically, is what leads to genuine bigotry.

To give an example, a friend of mine has someone working for him in a public facing role that was born female but now identifies as male. The company uniform is pretty gender neutral anyway but this person has long blond hair, wears makeup, jewellery and has long painted nails. The only indication of their choice of gender is their name badge, which most people won't look at. My friend had to pull them to one side a while back and have a difficult conversation because they kept snapping at customers for "assuming her gender" when they used female pronouns. Well, yeah, because you look like a girl and are making no effort to do otherwise. People aren't trying to offend you, they are making a very understandable and completely innocent mistake!

So there you are. A bit of a ramble, but you did ask.

[DavCobb]

Like most things, I think this is pretty nuanced and there isn't a "right" or "wrong" answer. I've no doubt that gender dysphoria is a thing. I've personally known two people who have fully transitioned from male to female and I've nothing but respect for them for going through the process they did, braving social stigma and enduring a lengthy evaluation process and living as a woman for a long period before surgery was even an option. They both did it though and were a lot happier after having done it, so fair play to them.

In these more enlightened times I think it's entirely likely that more people who feel this way are comfortable to express it rather than keep it bottled up, as they are less likely to face public ridicule for doing so. I will admit to being quite skeptical about the sheer numbers we seem to be seeing though, particularly amongst young people. From talking to my kids it seems that there are fairly significant numbers of kids in their school that identify as trans, and we're talking several people in each year group. I'm also aware of several kids who were trans and now seemingly aren't. I think there's a bit of a fad for this at the moment; in the past we've seen punks and goths and emos, now it seems the way to mark yourself out as a bit different is to be trans. If this is the case, I think it's a bit sad because it diminishes things for those who genuinely experience gender dysphoria.

I also think this makes the whole debate about women's toilets and changing facilities a little bit tricky to navigate, so I'm not going to try!

To be honest, there are only two aspects I feel strongly about in the whole debate. Firstly is protecting the integrity of women's sport. As far as I'm concerned, however people want to live their lives is up to them as long as it doesn't affect anyone else, but there's no way people who were born male should be allowed to compete against those who were born female in physically demanding sports.

Even if they've fully transitioned, if they've gone through puberty as a man then they've put on size and muscle mass and that doesn't go away. It's hugely unfair on women competitors who work as hard as male athletes to get to the top of their game to then find they are competing against bog standard male competitors who have changed sex (or just decided to change their pronouns) who carry a massive physical advantage over them. Where's the incentive to compete?

If trans athletes want to compete then of course they should be accomodated, but it should be in a new class, not at the expense of female athletes.

The second is in the poisonous nature of the debate it seems to generate when anyone (particularly a woman, it seems) dares to question anything in this arena. I really, really hate the phrase "TERF". It belongs with gammon, boomer and Karen as terms that are used to stifle debate. Just because someone fits a certain archetype it doesn't completely invalidate their opinion on everything. I genuinely believe that most people have a live and let live attitude, but when people get attacked and accused of bigotry for questioning or, heaven forbid, using the wrong pronoun it sets people's back up, and that, ironically, is what leads to genuine bigotry.

To give an example, a friend of mine has someone working for him in a public facing role that was born female but now identifies as male. The company uniform is pretty gender neutral anyway but this person has long blond hair, wears makeup, jewellery and has long painted nails. The only indication of their choice of gender is their name badge, which most people won't look at. My friend had to pull them to one side a while back and have a difficult conversation because they kept snapping at customers for "assuming her gender" when they used female pronouns. Well, yeah, because you look like a girl and are making no effort to do otherwise. People aren't trying to offend you, they are making a very understandable and completely innocent mistake!

So there you are. A bit of a ramble, but you did ask.

Good post BOTN.

That is my only issue and have only fallen foul once...someone complaining about use of gender.

A colleague fed back to a deck where I referred to someone as a "banks man". She (that's her pronoun) was just in copy and not a lot to do with her. She pointed out that I shouldn't assume that a 'banks man' was a male. I replied (flippantly and kinda ignoring her point) that he looked like a man but didn't ask him/her/they what their gender/sex was.

As for people complaining about mis-gendered without having that information or checking, i.e. your example...pathetic.

I haven't put my preferred pronouns on my email signature like the majority of the company. I get it, I respect it but won't apologise for my own valid views and opinions, which happen to be very liberal...maybe I am just 5 years behind. 

[guest3667]

Good post BOTN.

That is my only issue and have only fallen foul once...someone complaining about use of gender.

A colleague fed back to a deck where I referred to someone as a "banks man". She (that's her pronoun) was just in copy and not a lot to do with her. She pointed out that I shouldn't assume that a 'banks man' was a male. I replied (flippantly and kinda ignoring her point) that he looked like a man but didn't ask him/her/they what their gender/sex was.

As for people complaining about mis-gendered without having that information or checking, i.e. your example...pathetic.

I haven't put my preferred pronouns on my email signature like the majority of the company. I get it, I respect it but won't apologise for my own valid views and opinions, which happen to be very liberal...maybe I am just 5 years behind. 

Can you clarify what "deck" and "banks man" are? My preferred pronoun is "it" much simpler

[DavCobb]

Can you clarify what "deck" and "banks man" are? My preferred pronoun is "it" much simpler

Sorry it, the correct pronoun is 'Power Point Presentation'
A 'banks man' is someone who doesn't work in a bank. 

[guest3667]

Sorry it, the correct pronoun is 'Power Point Presentation'
A 'banks man' is someone who doesn't work in a bank. 

Even more bewildered now, what is the meaning of
“Deck”? It was fed back to after all! And I assume by “banks man” you meant “trans man”? Sorry for being pedantic but these things matter 😉
PS, Spekky is my user name, it is my preferred pronoun!

[Tabasco Kid]

Sorry it, the correct pronoun is 'Power Point Presentation'
A 'banks man' is someone who doesn't work in a bank. 

He normally works on a building site directing traffic, and overseeing reversing trucks. Rarely seen in a skirt though, hi viz or otherwise.

[guest3667]

He normally works on a building site directing traffic, and overseeing reversing trucks. Rarely seen in a skirt though, hi viz or otherwise.

And a hard hat?

[Tabasco Kid]

And a hard hat?

Boots, glasses, gloves, chainlink armour, geiger county, the full works.