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DavCobb
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« on: March 31, 2025, 12:48:14 pm »

We make the BBC

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/articles/c2kvjk5n8zzo

Pretty obvious that it costs more to run if we don't sell a player or two for a fee.
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TVOR
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« Reply #1 on: March 31, 2025, 13:13:28 pm »

I've seen a few today and just a quick search...
Swansea £15m loss
Stockport £7m loss
Yeovil £2.8m loss
Bournemouth £66m loss
Reading £21m loss
Walsall £1.8m loss

How the  f*** is football still going?!

(im sure theres 'good' reasons for a few but still crazy)

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Deepcut Cobbler
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« Reply #2 on: March 31, 2025, 13:30:25 pm »

I've seen a few today and just a quick search...
Swansea £15m loss
Stockport £7m loss
Yeovil £2.8m loss
Bournemouth £66m loss
Reading £21m loss
Walsall £1.8m loss

How the  f*** is football still going?!

(im sure theres 'good' reasons for a few but still crazy)



I was wondering how ours would compare to others at our level, is there a list or an easier method rather than searching each club?
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DavCobb
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« Reply #3 on: March 31, 2025, 13:36:46 pm »

I was wondering how ours would compare to others at our level, is there a list or an easier method rather than searching each club?

I appreciate it was 2023/24 but Man United was £113m  Tongue

At our level (i.e. L1 minnow/L2 club) £2m must be pretty standard excluding any player sales....in fact, it is a pretty good performance. Which highlights why football isn't a good business to try and make money.
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« Reply #4 on: March 31, 2025, 13:43:02 pm »


Surprised that the BBC published this, given its not about Wrexham.
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« Reply #5 on: March 31, 2025, 13:44:46 pm »

I guess it's also worth remembering that the new Sky deal only kicked in this season, so I'm guessing they wouldn't have been paid the increased revenue for that within the time window covered by these accounts.
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« Reply #6 on: March 31, 2025, 13:50:52 pm »

Next years accounts won’t have Hylton on.
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I think someone should just take this city of Peterborough and just... just flush it down the f***in' toilet

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« Reply #7 on: March 31, 2025, 14:13:55 pm »

The loss is one thing, but i'm confused by the "related party transactions" on the last page.

NT Ventures debt seems to have disappeared. B-d-J would seem to have loaned another £2.8m to the Football Club. Sole Intention is NLQ's vehicle so the club owes him £2.5m despite the fact he bought 25% of Ventures.

Finally The Football Club "lent" its wholly owned subsidiary CDNL £1.65m

So now the club owes over £15m to its creditors whilst being owed £3m by its debtors. Net £12m in debt?

Some of the losses already mentioned relating to other clubs are quite frightening.....yet football carries on! Someone like Bournemouth, buying players but playing in front of 11000 gates, its easier to see why. Yeovil though.... how the hell can a bang average National League side lose that amount of money in one year?
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DavCobb
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« Reply #8 on: March 31, 2025, 14:40:14 pm »


Yeovil though.... how the hell can a bang average National League side lose that amount of money in one year?


Not sure what's going on at Yeovil but there are huge disparities at all levels.

My mate manages a team further down the ladder at this level and said some of the wages are silly in relative terms (for step 5/6) and that there is quite a row going on in Bedford between the two clubs with the grounds next door:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cn4yeplme4ko

I guess someone like Real Bedford could end up generating significant 'debt'.
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« Reply #9 on: March 31, 2025, 14:57:20 pm »

The loss is one thing, but i'm confused by the "related party transactions" on the last page.

NT Ventures debt seems to have disappeared. B-d-J would seem to have loaned another £2.8m to the Football Club. Sole Intention is NLQ's vehicle so the club owes him £2.5m despite the fact he bought 25% of Ventures.

Finally The Football Club "lent" its wholly owned subsidiary CDNL £1.65m

So now the club owes over £15m to its creditors whilst being owed £3m by its debtors. Net £12m in debt?

Some of the losses already mentioned relating to other clubs are quite frightening.....yet football carries on! Someone like Bournemouth, buying players but playing in front of 11000 gates, its easier to see why. Yeovil though.... how the hell can a bang average National League side lose that amount of money in one year?

My understanding of the total debt and related parties transactions is as follows:

Total debt owed to DB/KT as at 30th June 2023 was £7,346,025

Total debt owed to DB/KT/NLQ as at June 30th 2024 is £11,436,025.

In other words the total amount owed to the owners has increased by £4,090,000.

However, £1,653,000 was paid to the clubs subsidiary CDNL so it can be fairly argued that the net debt to the owners was £9,783,025 if you assume that CDNL are good for the money that they owe the club. [The increase in net debt broadly  matches the annual losses].

It is also worth noting that the accounts say there is a capital commitment of £4.3m to the completion of the East Stand.

So the total debt owed to our owners is £15.7m gross, or £14m net as at 30th June 2024.

As we are now approaching the end of the financial year for 2025, it is probably reasonable to add another £1m - £2m to this debt to cover the trading losses for this year.

The general position of football clubs in the EFL and lower down is clearly un-sustainable in the short to medium term.

I don't think Sky TV, the football regulator etc will make any difference to the basic problem as historically all extra revenue finds its way to the players.

Clubs will feel that they have to compete with other teams in their division - so the only way to stop these losses is to design a set of rules that MAKE clubs break-even.

This could be done by a relatively simple set of rules but whether supporters would accept the implications for their own particular club I doubt.

But if the EFL and the new regulator don't get to grips with this problem URGENTLY, then what's happening at Reading will happen more widely very quickly.

Surely most football supporters must realise that there is a finite supply of very wealthy people who want or can afford to fund EFL clubs?

The Cobblers have not had to address this problem now, because of the owners anticipation of the revenue from the industrial land around Sixfields.

Exeter City FC, a supporter owned club, show that finances can be organised in a way to at least breakeven, but they still rely on the sale of players to do so. They say they have a 'base' budget that will allow them to break-even without the sale of players.

I hope they never have to demonstrate that this is the case as I fear greatly for their playing budget if they have to do so.

So, good news for the Cobblers is attendances are up, revenue is up and the East Stand completed.

Bad news is that we lost £2m and owe our owners a fortune.....football in general can't carry on like this for much longer..

NB: I've used the net debt figures in the analysis because they are most easily identifiable and relate directly to the money that the owners have put in.

It's reasonable to argue that my figures above over simplifies things because the investment in the East Stand (say £6m when completed) creates an asset class rather than say the rest of the money which has supported losses.

This is an entirely fair argument. On the other hand we will still owe the owners say c£14 - £16m by the completion of the stand and this year's losses.

[Something that I'm curious about, and I wonder if someone knows the answer, is why Sixfields Stadium is valued so low? Is it because of depreciation and/or the fact that it is leasehold?

I would think that there is an argument (all be it for another day) that Sixfields is worth considerably more than it is currently valued at? This does affect the view that you might take regarding the club's value to a new buyer?]
« Last Edit: March 31, 2025, 19:25:59 pm by Michael Walker » Report Spam   Logged
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« Reply #10 on: March 31, 2025, 15:19:28 pm »

A combination of extremely weak and poor governance, mercenary agents and their employers, increasingly demanding fans with unrealistic expectations and poor decision making by people with more money than sense. The losers will be future generations denied the opportunity to enjoy institutions of significant cultural and historical importance, killed by those with an unrelenting obsession for instant gratification, enabled by those too weak to stop them. That’s the inevitable outcome of football.
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« Reply #11 on: March 31, 2025, 15:34:47 pm »

https://images.gc.northamptontownfcservices.co.uk/996bb270-0bdf-11f0-af36-639f8b714c95.pdf
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DavCobb
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« Reply #12 on: March 31, 2025, 16:29:50 pm »

I’m not sure that I’ve ever read what people think the answer is, or indeed there needs to be an answer and that’s just how football is.
I work for one of the most successful businesses in the world and we are 14 billion in debt. Share price soaring and no sign of a struggle.

As long as someone picks up the tab it’ll continue. Ultimately most of these owners will never see their money back, or indeed looking to get it back. Cardoza tried (to an extent) and we’ll see how that ends.
I’m sure a few will fall by the wayside but it probably won’t be those losing a million or two a year.
As for the Prem, that’s just a different world….hence the Man Utd observation.

If people are suggesting that clubs only spend what is coming through the gate, that wouldn’t address the disparity.
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GrangeParkCobbler
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« Reply #13 on: March 31, 2025, 18:28:23 pm »

I’m not sure that I’ve ever read what people think the answer is, or indeed there needs to be an answer and that’s just how football is.
I work for one of the most successful businesses in the world and we are 14 billion in debt. Share price soaring and no sign of a struggle.

As long as someone picks up the tab it’ll continue. Ultimately most of these owners will never see their money back, or indeed looking to get it back. Cardoza tried (to an extent) and we’ll see how that ends.
I’m sure a few will fall by the wayside but it probably won’t be those losing a million or two a year.
As for the Prem, that’s just a different world….hence the Man Utd observation.

If people are suggesting that clubs only spend what is coming through the gate, that wouldn’t address the disparity.

I don't think anyone knows what the answer is! All this talk of regulators and so on...to do what exactly? Birmingham probably make more in revenue from replica shirt sales than we do from season ticket sales....it can never be a level playing field can it? Unless something radical like a rigid salary cap for all is in place there will always be disparity as you say.

As far as we are concerned...our principle owners are approaching the age of 80, you'd think that the land deal was the thing that saw them get their money back, but if we are 13/14/15m in debt to them I fail to see how they'd ever make that back on land which was valued at £890k! There certainly won't be millions of pounds in profits to build up the rest of the ground will there?

Like you, I honestly don't know what the answer is, either on a general football scale or a local NTFC scale. When your "administrative expenses" are a quarter of your total turnover things can't be that rosy can they?
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« Reply #14 on: March 31, 2025, 18:52:36 pm »

The fact that all these ghost companies are able to shadow the main event through the accounts is shocking in itself. Here we are in the 21st century living with subterfuge and deceit as accepted practice.
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« Reply #15 on: March 31, 2025, 18:52:54 pm »

Bolton £11.2 million loss, wages £16 million.
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« Reply #16 on: March 31, 2025, 20:24:58 pm »

I’m not sure that I’ve ever read what people think the answer is, or indeed there needs to be an answer and that’s just how football is.
I work for one of the most successful businesses in the world and we are 14 billion in debt. Share price soaring and no sign of a struggle.

As long as someone picks up the tab it’ll continue. Ultimately most of these owners will never see their money back, or indeed looking to get it back. Cardoza tried (to an extent) and we’ll see how that ends.
I’m sure a few will fall by the wayside but it probably won’t be those losing a million or two a year.
As for the Prem, that’s just a different world….hence the Man Utd observation.

If people are suggesting that clubs only spend what is coming through the gate, that wouldn’t address the disparity.

What is this business' Net Assets figure. That is the accounting value of your employer's business. It may, of course, have an Intangible Asset value that it chooses not to value.
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« Reply #17 on: March 31, 2025, 20:35:04 pm »

I guess it's also worth remembering that the new Sky deal only kicked in this season, so I'm guessing they wouldn't have been paid the increased revenue for that within the time window covered by these accounts.

The "accruals" concept of accounting ensures Income is recognised in the financial period to which it relates. The new Sky contract began during financial year ending June 30th 2025. If it was a three season contract you would recognise the Income from it over three seasons/financial years. The timing of payments is irrelevant to the posting of Income.
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« Reply #18 on: March 31, 2025, 21:02:46 pm »

The answer is to cap expenditure below income or face losing the ownership of a club. It’s really not complicated, it just needs the strength of conviction from the majority and legislation that’s strong enough. Sooner or later the average costs will become greater than the number of available individuals willing or able to support them.

These Hollywood wànkers turn up at Wrexham with cash on the hip and profiles big enough to propel the club to the big time. But eventually they will get bored or move on and Wrexham will become yet another Wigan/Blackburn/Bolton take your pick. Meanwhile the wage market has been elevated for everyone else, just to indulge these individuals on some unsustainable ego trip, while people worship them at their feet.

People have to learn to accept that in a pyramid system with promotion and relegation not all clubs can always be successful. Gearing finance towards only a positive outcome exposes a club to dependency on the individuals that took that decision and their appetite to sustain it. That comes at a risk, and the greater the financial exposure, the greater the risk. To remain competitive that risk goes up with every season that passes. Burying heads in the sand and trusting it will all work out in the end is just bonkers.

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« Reply #19 on: March 31, 2025, 21:36:51 pm »

So…. Considering it has been the mainstay from certain parties that our owners are the devil incarnate, what is the genuine verdict on their performance, all things considered? Are they worthy of the significant scrutiny and criticism they have endured. Or are they (all things considered) doing their best?

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