Accounts

[Melbourne Cobbler]

True Dale, but when you are looking back on something and asking what could have gone better, it’s always going to be ‘with hindsight’…

Without being argumentative, that’s unless you are commenting on what they could have reasonably foreseen and acted upon at the time.

[Melbourne Cobbler]

Football isn't like any other business,  your costumers are loyal to the product regardless how faulty it is.
It's good to show losses on a balance sheet for tax purposes.
Overstretching to achieve on pitch success can pay dividends ...If it goes boob's up , you only drop a few divisions, cut your cloth and start again...
All those clubs that flew too close to the sun, got relegated out the football league, come/ came back bigger and stronger ...
It's when a club just tread water without trading in a correct manner to suit its surroundings,  it stagnates.

😂 It’s comedy gold, more like this please Bubbles.

[Winslow Lee]

All those clubs that flew too close to the sun, got relegated out the football league, come/ came back bigger and stronger ...
It's when a club just tread water without trading in a correct manner to suit its surroundings,  it stagnates.

Are we talking about teams that actually went bust? or teams that just got relegated from the league for being sh1t. Teams obviously go into administration and can get a points penalty but looking at clubs who actually got wound up, the ones that spring to mind are Bury, Darlington, Hereford, Halifax, Macclesfield, Maidstone, Scarborough and Chester.

[Worthless Recluse]

Are we talking about teams that actually went bust? or teams that just got relegated from the league for being sh1t. Teams obviously go into administration and can get a points penalty but looking at clubs who actually got wound up, the ones that spring to mind are Bury, Darlington, Hereford, Halifax, Macclesfield, Maidstone, Scarborough and Chester.

I don't think Bury ever actually got wound up. T
Certainly they are back playing at Gigg Lane averaging crowds close to 4k, having amalgamated with AFC Bury the phoenix club, in the 9th tier.
As others have said, does it really matter. We go again, as the saying goes.

[TVOR]

Football isn't like any other business,  your costumers are loyal to the product regardless how faulty it is.
It's good to show losses on a balance sheet for tax purposes.
Overstretching to achieve on pitch success can pay dividends ...If it goes boob's up , you only drop a few divisions, cut your cloth and start again...
All those clubs that flew too close to the sun, got relegated out the football league, come/ came back bigger and stronger ...
It's when a club just tread water without trading in a correct manner to suit its surroundings,  it stagnates.

So you would be happy if we ended up non league, as long as the owners had 'flown to close to the sun' and build the stadium you have mentioned once or twice?

[Winslow Lee]

I don't think Bury ever actually got wound up. T
Certainly they are back playing at Gigg Lane averaging crowds close to 4k, having amalgamated with AFC Bury the phoenix club, in the 9th tier.
As others have said, does it really matter. We go again, as the saying goes.

The phoenix club were able to buy the old name and ground off the administrators as the old club was no longer functioning as a team with no players or league position.

Obviously if the worst happened we would go again but I was just pointing out that risking everything isn’t the genius no flaw strategy that beds was making out!.

[lordjord]

Its odd reading these, very much a feeling of what can I do to change things? Feels like nothing, changes are required across the board for this to not occur at 99% of clubs I would guess. I wonder who we made money on with regards to player trading, or did we lose cash on that? Cant recall now but does not feel like we have made many noticeable sales.

[TVOR]

Swansea £15m loss
Stockport £7m loss
Yeovil £2.8m loss
Bournemouth £66m loss
Reading £21m loss
Walsall £1.8m loss

Gillingham £4.3m loss
Peterborough £2.3m loss
Doncaster £3m loss
Exeter £180k profit (I think)
Chelsea £130m profit (by selling the womens team... to themselves)
Coventry £8.7m profit

Exeter and Coventry profits mostly due to player sales. Shows how important finding those gems is, and yet how it still make f*** all difference to P*sh

[DavCobb]

I think we should rip it up and start from scratch. Everyone has jumpers for goal posts. The team I started in The Bear could be in the Prem by now.

[GrangeParkCobbler]

Gillingham £4.3m loss
Peterborough £2.3m loss
Doncaster £3m loss
Exeter £180k profit (I think)
Chelsea £130m profit (by selling the womens team... to themselves)
Coventry £8.7m profit

Exeter and Coventry profits mostly due to player sales. Shows how important finding those gems is, and yet how it still make f*** all difference to P*sh

Posh operate in a different world to us when it comes to player movements! Ephron Mason-Clarke moved to Coventry for £3.75m in January 2024, then Ronnie Edwards went to Southampton for £3m in July followed by Harrison Burrows to Sheffield United for £3.55m just three weeks later.
The latter two fell outside of the accounting period which has just been filed and they lost £2.3m on a £10.1m turnover for the year.

To get £10m in six months for three players is something we can only dream about. They then buy the next non-league starlet or two ready to sell on in the next few years.

Overall though it seems they have started paying down their historic debt and they are now around £16.6m in the red, whereas we are only £12m (minus the value of the stand)!

[GrangeParkCobbler]

Its odd reading these, very much a feeling of what can I do to change things? Feels like nothing, changes are required across the board for this to not occur at 99% of clubs I would guess. I wonder who we made money on with regards to player trading, or did we lose cash on that? Cant recall now but does not feel like we have made many noticeable sales.

I can't see that we sold any player for cash between July 2023 and June 2024 yet the accounts suggest we made a profit of £256k on what is basically player trading. We must have got money from a sell on clause or bonus related clause for someone.... Carney Chukwuemeka appearance related clause rings a bell?

[Michael Walker]

I can't see that we sold any player for cash between July 2023 and June 2024 yet the accounts suggest we made a profit of £256k on what is basically player trading. We must have got money from a sell on clause or bonus related clause for someone.... Carney Chukwuemeka appearance related clause rings a bell?

I've asked about income from player trading - its profits in any one year from the players that have left NTFC either through transfer income or compensation income in line with Youth Development regulations.

When deals are done there is generally (but not always) an initially sum, and then often contingent amounts which can be based on achievements/ milestones or sell-on percentages. These can be for senior players transferred and academy players under EPPP compensation regulations.

Because some of these amounts are contingent based on appearances/ success/ milestones, or players moving on again, it is not always obvious in that particular year the accounts cover which player or players trading has resulted in the profit, because the original transaction could have been some years before.

 It is also worth noting that the income is recognised in the year it crystallises, and it doesn’t necessary mean that the cash flow is in line with the accounts, as often deals involve payments on instalments.

 I gained a new found respect for our contracts team when you see that we made a £1m from this the year before last.

Ideally, we need Max Dyche to move several times up the league before playing 50 times for England..we'd be solvent for years..

[TVOR]

To get £10m in six months for three players is something we can only dream about. They then buy the next non-league starlet or two ready to sell on in the next few years.

I agree that that are significant successes over the years and on the surface its a model to aspire to, and we have tried and failed on the odd occasion (Leon Lobjoit etc).
However for every success there are dozens of failures that cost them money. I have the unfortunate position of having some of their fans in my social circle and they find it baffling the praise they get for it as they see the bigger picture. Much of their failure this year is trying to build a team of young potentials that has backfired.
Although they have some success they are an absolute basket case of a club financially.

[Terryfenwickatemyhamster]

Anyone that suggests the Boro method of running things is preferable to ours is miles wide of the mark.

[Fabbiadini]

Anyone that suggests the Boro method of running things is preferable to ours is miles wide of the mark.

In what sense? Since MacAnthony bought them they've consistently been above us, and lets be honest, fielded much more entertaining teams to watch with players that went on to great things. George Boyd, Mackail-Smith, Dwight Gayle, Mason-Clark, Aaron McLean. Even annoyingly our own Ivan Toney, or the likes of Lee Tomlin who was an obvious talent we should have snapped up while at Rushden.

It's high risk as the players they buy eventually need to return a profit, but so far it's panned out for them.

[TVOR]

In what sense? Since MacAnthony bought them they've consistently been above us, and lets be honest, fielded much more entertaining teams to watch with players that went on to great things. George Boyd, Mackail-Smith, Dwight Gayle, Mason-Clark, Aaron McLean. Even annoyingly our own Ivan Toney, or the likes of Lee Tomlin who was an obvious talent we should have snapped up while at Rushden.

It's high risk as the players they buy eventually need to return a profit, but so far it's panned out for them.

Dont disagree with a lot of that but its at significant risk. The club is £16m in debt and about £10m of that to people outside of the club. If MacAnthony gets bored or fed up, or if any of the other debts are called in then its a potential house of cards. But they have had Championship football. Not easy this football ownership malarky.

[Fabbiadini]

Dont disagree with a lot of that but its at significant risk. The club is £16m in debt and about £10m of that to people outside of the club. If MacAnthony gets bored or fed up, or if any of the other debts are called in then its a potential house of cards. But they have had Championship football. Not easy this football ownership malarky.

I won't pretend to know all the intricacies, but I'd argue their £16m vs our £12m debt is insignificant when you consider they also have; a category 2 academy, their own training facilities, an established scouting / analytics department, a young promising squad, and ultimately a more successful recent history.

If it came to a potential buy-out even with that debt they'd be a more attractive proposition than ourselves.

But yes it's not without risk, and it's reliant on MacAnthony having the capital or external investment bail them out if suddenly player sales dry up. I'd also not suggest Thomas do the same with us if I was in his position.

However no matter how you look at it, they've transformed from languishing in the bottom tier to now consistently challenging for Championship football. This season will be their worst in well over a decade and still match our best, with a young squad that will be expected to push on next year. It's easy to say in retrospect now they've picked up points, but relegation was never really on the cards for them where as we'll always be scrapping to survive in this division for as long as possible.

I don't like the bloke or the club, but I'm envious if we compare our relative fortunes over the last 20 years.

[Terryfenwickatemyhamster]

I won't pretend to know all the intricacies, but I'd argue their £16m vs our £12m debt is insignificant when you consider they also have; a category 2 academy, their own training facilities, an established scouting / analytics department, a young promising squad, and ultimately a more successful recent history.

If it came to a potential buy-out even with that debt they'd be a more attractive proposition than ourselves.

Their external debt poses a significantly bigger risk than ours. In fact it has led to some very worrying times for them in the past. As for them being a more attractive proposition than us. Well, that depends on one thing. Whether or not any potential future owner of NTFC could negotiate the purchase of the stadium for a negligible amount. If that could be achieved, London Road would be very much the lesser proposition.

[SC Cobbler]

Anyone that suggests the Boro method of running things is preferable to ours is miles wide of the mark.

I'm sure they have a convicted wife beater managing them. How their fans can support that, I don't know. Sums up that side of the nene.

[Fabbiadini]

Well, that depends on one thing. Whether or not any potential future owner of NTFC could negotiate the purchase of the stadium for a negligible amount. If that could be achieved, London Road would be very much the lesser proposition.

I've just done some quick googling on their stadium situation so correct me if I'm wrong.

From what I've gathered, MacAnthony has bought London Road stadium off their council with subsequent annual repayments. That puts him in a position to leverage transfer of that ownership in any future buy-out, which our owners currently can't.  For us to be a better proposition on that front, our council would both have to be open to the sale and for a lesser amount, neither of which are guaranteed. (irrespective of whether third party ownership is actually a good thing)

It also doesn't consider the further investment required to get us to the same stature of training facility, academy, and all the backroom infrastructure that has enabled them to continue to find and sell players at profit.

Not saying they're completely risk-free and I certainly wouldn't trust MacAnthony to act in the club's best interests if he couldn't find external investment. But with all that in mind, I still think as things stand they would attract more prospective buyers and have 20 years of comparative success under their belt since he took over.  And unless a mysterious Northamptonian benefactor materializes out of thin air, I'd suspect the next 20 years will pan out the same.

That's nothing against Thomas. I appreciate his stewardship and hope he continues to prop us up for as long as he can. But the reality is as a club we're miles away from where they are, and without a significant shift will always be rank underdogs in games against them for the foreseeable.