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Redevelopment Closer Than Ever?

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Author Topic: Redevelopment Closer Than Ever?  (Read 893903 times)
GrangeParkCobbler
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« Reply #20680 on: November 09, 2017, 20:08:03 pm »

Interesting post GPC, but your opinion of our Ground is a little "unfair". If you have been to Stanley, Newport , Gillingham, Exeter, Burton, Luton, Portsmouth etc not sure how you arrived at your put down. For a general day out it ain't too bad and would rather be at 6Fields than say Luton which is so cramped that you cant get to the loo's. As for Accrington words fail me; then Pompey where you stand knee deep in pi$$. Still as they say its all about opinions. Incidentally why is the Oxford game being ignored by the top guys on here!


A bit of character and run-downness is sometimes a good thing!! Adds a bit to the experience!! Stanley and Newport are dumps, Gillingham is not too bad on 3 sides, Burton is quite tidy, Luton is quirky with its exec box side whilst yes the Oak Road is a dump, Portsmouth's dumpness is more than made up for by the 16000-18000 who make a great noise and enhance the atmosphere.

Lots of the old grounds have character, ours (imo) doesn't. For the most part its bland, soulless and lacking in atmosphere. We have a nice pitch though and that sometimes lends itself to some decent football!!! Yes it is indeed all about opinions. My seat in the west is quite cramped, hardly any legroom, its a ballache to get into the toilets at half time and the food on offer is overpriced and lacking in selection. But hey, its our ground, where we go 23+ times per season to cheer on our team (!)

I've been to over 130 league grounds......and ours would be low down in the list......would have been a lot higher in 1994, but today its well down the list...again, only in my opinion mind!
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« Reply #20681 on: November 09, 2017, 22:30:00 pm »

I'm a long time watcher and contributor to this thread. But we keep going round and round in circles!!

We are where we are! Nobody knows what KT's intentions are, nobody knows what the Chinese involvement is bringing, nobody knows whats going on with the council, leases or whatever. Nobody knows how the Police investigations are going and whether we (the Club, the Town, The Council, The taxpayer) will ever see any of the missing millions.

Similarly nobody knows whether a ground improvement, boxes, hotel or whatever is going to bring us success on the pitch.

Sixfields is (in my opinion) a dump, a throwback to what it was, a soulless 90's breeze block stadium built on the cheap. 22 years on not a lot has changed bar the famous extra doors in the loos, the more famous gate painting and the even more famous carbunkle of an East Stand.

But people keep using MK as a comparison, a shining beacon, an example of a forward thinking football club with a forward thinking council........has anyone looked at the League table? You can have your 32500 seats, let your ground out to Rugby teams, English National Teams, have the best conferencing facilities for miles around, have a fantastic hotel built within the stand.......but they're still in League 1. Look at Coventry......same set up, they're in League 2.

To be successful (if success is purely measured on league performance and standing) you need investment ON and OFF the pitch, but probably more on than off. Take Bournemouth as a prime example......less than a 12000 capacity in the Premier League? How did that happen? You also need a bit of luck, a good team manager, a good set up behind the scenes, and so many more variables.

Yes we'd all like a bigger better ground.....yes we'd all like the council to roll over again and give us some more land.....but we can like and wish for all we want. We have a League 1 football team, one that doesn't fill their 7600 capacity tin pot stadium on a regular basis, we have had investment on the pitch but still find ourselves struggling in the lower reaches of the division.

The notion that Sixfields is holding us back to any great degree is quite fanciful. It is a small piece in a rather large jigsaw.

I knew Cardoza was crooked, I did as much digging as I could and was eventually proved to be right. I'm not getting the same vibes about KT and crew. Sure its a tangled web (why does it have to be so complicated with holding companies, companies owning other companies, directors in place in many of the same companies?) but my personal opinion is that KT and friends came in when they were needed, got the club on an even keel and that is where we are today.

What the future holds......none of us know!

Just a few things that I see differently,   It's not essential to sell every seat to every game, how can you expect us to sell out every ticket in a an atmospheric void of a non league looking ground with a team that struggles to compete in league 1?
Saying that, our ground is currently 80% full on average which forces us to sell matchday tickets at a £24 premium and unable to introduce promotional gimmicks as we might lock out regulars.

You also say we would all love a bigger ground. .No, we need a 10,000 capacity ground or we rot.
And no we don't want the council to give KT anything as he has shown little belief in our club to give us anything of substance should the land reap rich rewards.
A piddling handfull of boxes was as much as he was willing to suggest.

Any investment now would be for our clubs long term future benefits, that will be felt long after Thomas and Co and the Chinese become just a chapter in our clubs history books.
Doing nothing without any direction isn't an option that should be afforded Thomas and Co.
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« Reply #20682 on: November 09, 2017, 22:43:16 pm »

Just a few things that I see differently, ........

There is an important game on Saturday, why canít you give yr crusade a rest and give us all an appreciation on Sats game.
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GrangeParkCobbler
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« Reply #20683 on: November 09, 2017, 23:18:22 pm »

Just a few things that I see differently,   It's not essential to sell every seat to every game, how can you expect us to sell out every ticket in a an atmospheric void of a non league looking ground with a team that struggles to compete in league 1?
Saying that, our ground is currently 80% full on average which forces us to sell matchday tickets at a £24 premium and unable to introduce promotional gimmicks as we might lock out regulars.

You also say we would all love a bigger ground. .No, we need a 10,000 capacity ground or we rot.
And no we don't want the council to give KT anything as he has shown little belief in our club to give us anything of substance should the land reap rich rewards.
A piddling handfull of boxes was as much as he was willing to suggest.

Any investment now would be for our clubs long term future benefits, that will be felt long after Thomas and Co and the Chinese become just a chapter in our clubs history books.
Doing nothing without any direction isn't an option that should be afforded Thomas and Co.


I don't expect us to sell every ticket, and yes there are people I know who do stay away because they don't like the ground, because we haven't got cash turnstiles,and they dont want to be sitting in Row A seat number 3 of the West Stand. So yes more seats would equal more choice, but not necessarily bring much higher gates.

We are not "forced" to sell tickets at that premium price.....almost half the seats in the ground available to home fans are taken by season ticket holders, then add on the 200-300 complimentary tickets every game given to sponsors, associates, visiting team scouts etc etc, and you're left with around 3000 seats available on a "walk up" basis. From what i've seen most people purchase tickets in advance so actually only pay £22, the queues for collections are far bigger than the queues for cash sales.
Also the club does make a large number of tickets available to schools, youth teams etc. Commonly there are between 4 and 6 youth teams playing in the shootout, and tickets are made available to the kids for a fiver and its £15 for their parents. So we do already offer cheap tickets too. And yet still we only fill 76% of the seats available to home fans.

I agree with you that Sixfields is not the most welcoming place, I agree that capacity needs to be larger...i'd advocate 12000 to prepare for the Championship, and I agree that we need more room for visiting fans. I also agree that it doesn't appear that the current incumbents in the hot seat are "made of money" and will invest countless millions into the club.

It ain't that easy, there is no guaranteed return. If there was, they'd have done it by now!
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« Reply #20684 on: November 10, 2017, 07:22:09 am »

It's always refreshing to read GPC's contributions and his views again are as reliable as his great work unearthing Cardozagate! Thank you again.

I totally agree regarding Sixfields, I for one had stopped going long before I moved abroad and so had most of my other week in week out mates too, we would travel to all away games yet never to many home games. It's dull, moreover uninspiring to not only hardened fans but ultimately the wider public and potential new support. Buildings make statements and surroundings are incredibly important, that's why even some decrepit and knackered old grounds can be much more conducive to creating atmosphere and fun.

I do however disagree to one extent, my mundane existence, before retirement was on larger construction and engineering projects worldwide and they all have one aspect in common, they make a statement of intent, aspiration. They sell something!

Put aside the MK white elephant project, that's peculiar in such a large stadia development to a largely new and untested market. Give that stadium to an established league club in need of a new stadium and you will see a huge upturn in average attendance.

Sixfields is now bad press, barely anybody here has a clue as to what's going on let alone the wider public, it's tainted. It has grown a fish bowl level of support, in which I mean the support, business and commercial interests are pretty much set and cannot grow. You only have to look at the average attendances since the ground opened, it has barely fluctuated.

An in scale development alongside a careful PR and Media campaign could change everything. Cardozas original plan, if anyone can remember, was almost there, still a little disappointing but a few thousand extra shiny new seats with enticing corporate facilities would be easy to sell. It doesn't need to be a huge first leap, but a tangible, exciting and newsworthy development to capture a little imagination, and at the same time bury some of the bad.

We all know a new exciting stand would be full for it's opening game and similarly as Sixfields enjoyed an instant and substantial leap in average attendance over the CG, the same financially at least, would be enjoyed by the new stand. The incorporation of desperately needed commercial accommodation would secure this.

Even the largest noses on here are quite clueless as to the true intentions of the owners, but unless they're willing to pump endless amounts of money down the drain they must develop the facilities or surroundings to recoup some or all, this as we know is the contentious issue, "surroundings". Let's just hope they do have some exciting ideas for the stadium side of things when or if things are cleared up and the atmosphere in the stadium should improve a little.

You can all fuck off with the spending other peoples money shit as that's all I've ever done. Nobody here is buying the club, or are they? So just carry on speculating chaps, it's fun and it clearly winds up some of the more super intelligent and higher mortals here.

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« Reply #20685 on: November 10, 2017, 07:31:26 am »

I don't expect us to sell every ticket, and yes there are people I know who do stay away because they don't like the ground, because we haven't got cash turnstiles,and they dont want to be sitting in Row A seat number 3 of the West Stand. So yes more seats would equal more choice, but not necessarily bring much higher gates.

We are not "forced" to sell tickets at that premium price.....almost half the seats in the ground available to home fans are taken by season ticket holders, then add on the 200-300 complimentary tickets every game given to sponsors, associates, visiting team scouts etc etc, and you're left with around 3000 seats available on a "walk up" basis. From what i've seen most people purchase tickets in advance so actually only pay £22, the queues for collections are far bigger than the queues for cash sales.
Also the club does make a large number of tickets available to schools, youth teams etc. Commonly there are between 4 and 6 youth teams playing in the shootout, and tickets are made available to the kids for a fiver and its £15 for their parents. So we do already offer cheap tickets too. And yet still we only fill 76% of the seats available to home fans.

I agree with you that Sixfields is not the most welcoming place, I agree that capacity needs to be larger...i'd advocate 12000 to prepare for the Championship, and I agree that we need more room for visiting fans. I also agree that it doesn't appear that the current incumbents in the hot seat are "made of money" and will invest countless millions into the club.

It ain't that easy, there is no guaranteed return. If there was, they'd have done it by now!
Suggestions of unsustainable  'countless millions' being needed is not the only option,  we could try going down the steady sustainable  growth route, a smaller version of what the Saints rugby did, one section at a time, we could extend the South stand and 12 corperate boxes built into the shell soon followed by the restaurant and bars, nothing to luxurious but still giving the ground a more professional feel.  
We, the football club of Northampton could be working with the council to help THEM to acheive planning permission to a developer in return for some financial help that goes directly into where it's needed.
There are several other ways to raise revenues enough to give us the little we require, so scaremongering with large sums doesnt help our continual demise and as doing nothing in fear that it may take a few years to build up our club is a very poor excuse.
KT and co need to show more ambition towards our club.
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« Reply #20686 on: November 10, 2017, 08:29:03 am »

A couple of good & accurate posts by GPR.  I would just add the reminder that the ground expansion is not only about the number of seats, cash sales on the day and so on.  Expansion is also about the pressing need for the club to boost revenue first to help sustain its position in L1 with better players and then maybe higher.  As Sixfields is today and has been since its opening there is no incentive for supporters to arrive early or stay late to have a drink in a bar or coffee lounge or something else.  Outside of match days there is absolutely nothing except the cub shop. As I commented earlier in the week, my visits this year to Sixways, Worcester RFC and The Ricoh both on non-match days was eye opening.  Worcester also has a John Lloyd Leisure Centre built close to the main stand. It looked to be very busy.

The frustration is we do not know what are our present owners plans or ambitions. As time has passed KT has said less and less.  The recent staged interviews on his return from a month os so in the USA on his other business were superficial.  Beds may be right to an extent on our current ownership but I dismiss his comments of other local buyers being out there in the form of a "local consortium" and ready with the dosh as nonsense.





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« Reply #20687 on: November 10, 2017, 08:59:38 am »

Couple of extra points. Cardoza's original development partners were LXB who were frustrated in their development plans and went on to create Rushden Lakes. Would things have turned out differently if their early plans had been realised? Who knows.

I would not be sticking housing on that land in a million years.

Here's news of a 2014 report which exposed the hazards of the site including asbestos, solvents and metals. (also a pic of the plans).

http://www.northamptonchron.co.uk/news/report-highlights-potential-gas-chemical-and-asbestos-issues-1-6332247
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« Reply #20688 on: November 10, 2017, 09:19:46 am »

Good point raised by meccano about land contamination.  This probably rules out housing development and with these issues must affect the land value.
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« Reply #20689 on: November 13, 2017, 13:25:52 pm »

https://www.ntfc.co.uk/news/2017/november/kelvin_thomas_facebookqa_nov17/

As part of the clubís commitment to communication and openness with supporters, Northampton Town Chairman Kelvin Thomas will take part in a social media Q&A with supporters on Wednesday evening.

The Cobblers Chairman will be available on the club's official Facebook page - facebook.com/northamptontownfc for a question and answer session with supporters from 7pm until 8pm on Wednesday.

To take part, please look out for the thread that will appear on the club's Facebook page at 7pm on Wednesday inviting your questions for the Chairman.
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« Reply #20690 on: November 13, 2017, 15:38:03 pm »

Good point raised by meccano about land contamination.  This probably rules out housing development and with these issues must affect the land value.

I wouldn't say that report was scaremongering but you can pretty much build anywhere after the relevant remediation. I live a stone throw away and had to jump through hoops before I could complete on a 12 year old house. I had to request the evidence of remediation from the original builder, get a copy of the original site plan, pay for a fast track Radon test and was knocking on my prospective neighbours doors to see if their children had 6 fingers.
If they were able to build Sixfields originally, that's without the host of businesses along the rollercoaster road, they'd be able to build housing on that plot of land. It just may be that it wouldn't be as straightforward as they were hoping (although pretty obvious that landfill is complicated to complete remediation on) and therefore pricing it out for some property developers. Always thought it was a strange place
to plonk houses, the clue is in the chimneys.

Maybe the FB session will reveal that, the Chinese links to 'education' and much, much more...but it is better to under promise and over deliver. 
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« Reply #20691 on: November 13, 2017, 17:19:57 pm »

There you go Beds a good chance to get your questions over to KT. Just ask if there is a development master plan and what it entails. Job done.

RE the contamination I seem to remember a portion of the Sixfields site was underlined with concrete after being made safe. Think this is why the pitch is dead flat while the rest undulates so there may be a hefty piece of land that needs expensive work done on it. Cardoza's plans had x millions towards making the site safe I recall in the midsts of time.
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« Reply #20692 on: November 13, 2017, 20:39:53 pm »

There you go Beds a good chance to get your questions over to KT. Just ask if there is a development master plan and what it entails. Job done.

RE the contamination I seem to remember a portion of the Sixfields site was underlined with concrete after being made safe. Think this is why the pitch is dead flat while the rest undulates so there may be a hefty piece of land that needs expensive work done on it. Cardoza's plans had x millions towards making the site safe I recall in the midsts of time.
I'm hoping it's not yet another excuse filled session with NBC taking all the blame for the latest on going delays.
We also get to hear about what exactly Northampton Ventures are and it's benefits to our club.
The Chinese investment, are they going to actually invest and in what, ground/ players?
Should help clear up the uncertainty surrounding our much needed development.
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« Reply #20693 on: November 13, 2017, 21:54:42 pm »

I'm hoping it's not yet another excuse filled session with NBC taking all the blame for the latest on going delays.
We also get to hear about what exactly Northampton Ventures are and it's benefits to our club.
The Chinese investment, are they going to actually invest and in what, ground/ players?
Should help clear up the uncertainty surrounding our much needed development.


..... so somewhat negative predictions on the outcome but no confirmation of questions you will be asking - more than a slight impression you actually wallow in the uncertainty and actually might be disappointed if real sensible and optimistic answers ensued.
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« Reply #20694 on: November 13, 2017, 22:37:28 pm »

..... so somewhat negative predictions on the outcome but no confirmation of questions you will be asking - more than a slight impression you actually wallow in the uncertainty and actually might be disappointed if real sensible and optimistic answers ensued.

You can lead a horse to water........
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« Reply #20695 on: November 14, 2017, 08:17:28 am »

..... so somewhat negative predictions on the outcome but no confirmation of questions you will be asking - more than a slight impression you actually wallow in the uncertainty and actually might be disappointed if real sensible and optimistic answers ensued.
If he announced ntfc/ventures/Chinese have decided that we will get a 3000 capacity increase and some corperate boxes, I will be delighted.
Finally able to move our club forward.
He must have some good news for us this time.
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« Reply #20696 on: November 14, 2017, 09:49:40 am »

If he announced ntfc/ventures/Chinese have decided that we will get a 3000 capacity increase and some corperate boxes, I will be delighted.
Finally able to move our club forward.
He must have some good news for us this time.

I have a sinking feeling you are a sandwich short of a picnic?
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« Reply #20697 on: November 14, 2017, 09:57:49 am »

Whatever are our different points of view on this vexed topic we all, Beds included, have the opportunity of asking the Chairman the pertinent questions on Facebook tomorrow night.

Some are forecasting an announcement of some sort will precede the Q & A to take the sting out of the situation. I have no idea about that but if not I expect some direct and forceful questions.
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« Reply #20698 on: November 14, 2017, 13:27:33 pm »

Whatever are our different points of view on this vexed topic we all, Beds included, have the opportunity of asking the Chairman the pertinent questions on Facebook tomorrow night.

Some are forecasting an announcement of some sort will precede the Q & A to take the sting out of the situation. I have no idea about that but if not I expect some direct and forceful questions.

What will actually happen is that anyone who asks a direct or forceful question will be shouted down (in a keyboard way) by other fans, with comments such as 'He's already told us that its legal issues'. or 'He's done loads for the club' etc.  Such comments will attract countless 'likes' as well!  Grin

I look forward to it immensely, should be rather entertaining!

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« Reply #20699 on: November 14, 2017, 13:44:02 pm »

It would be good if he can come out and say what is proposed for the East Stand even if there are legal issues over the lease I don't see why he cant say if we get the lease this is what we will  build and show us the proposal, and if we don't get what we want with the lease this is what we will build and show us that proposal. I can't see how that is not possible.
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