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Redevelopment Closer Than Ever?

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Author Topic: Redevelopment Closer Than Ever?  (Read 885447 times)
Melbourne Cobbler
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« Reply #20880 on: January 25, 2018, 22:18:47 pm »

. I think you will have gathered, to try and help you with this concept I have replied to your points in bold. Still donít think it will carry any weight with investors though, so remains unlikely as I canít see anyone spending whatís required on the strength of the points above? Thatís unless a supporter with a true love of the club and cash on the hip comes knocking.
As an addition to this I should point out that case studies such as attached would be documented as part of any due diligence. It is examples like this that make raising funds difficult, particularly when dealing with the banks and other similar institutions conducting risk management processes and looking for guarantees. I found the whole story quite interesting, particularly the fate of the developer? It also suggests that our hope that a new state of the art stadium automatically results in larger attendances may not always eventually be accurate ? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Darlington_Arena
« Last Edit: January 25, 2018, 22:20:45 pm by Melbourne Cobbler » Report Spam   Logged

Chairman, Paul Stratford Fanclub & proud member of the Steve Massey Appreciation Society (Though refuse to be in his fan club on account of his crap goal celebration in front of the Hotel End when playing for Wrexham)
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« Reply #20881 on: January 26, 2018, 07:13:25 am »

As an addition to this I should point out that case studies such as attached would be documented as part of any due diligence. It is examples like this that make raising funds difficult, particularly when dealing with the banks and other similar institutions conducting risk management processes and looking for guarantees. I found the whole story quite interesting, particularly the fate of the developer? It also suggests that our hope that a new state of the art stadium automatically results in larger attendances may not always eventually be accurate ? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Darlington_Arena
And you were doing so well until you mentioned Darlington, a town of 90, 000 so closer to Wellingborough than Northampton in stature,  that had a vast 25000 seater stadium built that they didn't need.
We dont need it either, The chairman has warned us against 30 and 20,000 capacity stadium and we all 100% agree, we dont..
Its the fact he says 6300 home capacity  (1400 away) 'is about right' for Northampton town, despite it being an embarrassment to our club for over 2 decades and has stopped us significantly  growing our support base which  is catalyst to our struggle to get out of and stay out of league 2.
The Towns population has grown by nearly 50,000 since we first played at Sixfields but yet our attendances have stayed flat.
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« Reply #20882 on: January 26, 2018, 07:37:48 am »

BEDS. This is what we'd be up against IF we had a 12000 capacity stadium in the Championship.

Brentford are moving stadiums soon, Burton will probably go down. We would head into that division with the smallest stadium! Still!!

Forget your sustainable growth model mate, it wouldn't work on the basis that cash that would normally be spent on the team would have to be spent on the repayments instead. We would then have a rubbish team and the crowds would probably go down, not up!

Without chucking at least 30 million quid into the pot, Our only hope for a sustainable football club in the top two tiers is (a) a good team first and foremost & (b) a Bounemouth style bankrolled entrant into the premiership.

No other 'model' would work. To attract the next level of 'investment', get the team into the championship, and attract the money people across the world to join the party.

A 12000 capacity stadium would make virtually no difference whatsoever in the grand scheme of things, other than giving us a nicer lower league ground. But with zero chance of filling it unless we got to the 2nd tier. Our overheads would go up massively as well. R&D closed the Airwair (not sure how to spell it) stand behind their goal which they spent a fortune on because they couldn't afford the running costs. MK Dons are clearly skint despite their wonderful facilities and flirtations in the Championship.

Basically, there is zero business case to go from 8000-12000 for an 'investor'. On the flip side, if the club was fan owed, and adapted your model the budget for players short term would go down unless the crowds went up massively which they wouldn't do unless the team was top of the league.

For the risk of repeating a point Im sure I've made previously, If I won 150million the euro lottery Id 'have a play' with the Cobblers, Id increase the playing budget year in year out in the hope of fluking it into the premiership, then Id 'sort the ground out'. Or flog it to someone richer than me if 'the club caught the eye' of someone during the journey. I reckon thats pretty much what our 'owners/investors' are looking to do.

20 years ago Id have done things totally differently. Probably what your suggesting. 2018 versus 1998 - completely different world now. The rich local businessman or lottery winner (!) has no place in football these days, not at the top table. Its gone way beyond that. The days of adding 2000 to your capacity and it making a difference are long gone. We are where we are mate, but I don't expect to change your opinion!  Grin Grin



   Team   sum   Matches   average
1   Leeds United   Leeds United   453.644   14   32.403
2   Aston Villa   Aston Villa   428.111   14   30.579
3   Sunderland AFC   Sunderland AFC   387.715   14   27.694
4   Wolverhampton Wanderers   Wolverhampton Wanderers   387.403   14   27.672
5   Sheffield United   Sheffield United   377.527   14   26.966
6   Derby County   Derby County   374.168   14   26.726
7   Sheffield Wednesday   Sheffield Wednesday   365.116   14   26.080
8   Norwich City   Norwich City   358.842   14   25.632
9   Middlesbrough FC   Middlesbrough FC   357.354   14   25.525
10   Nottingham Forest   Nottingham Forest   354.204   14   25.300
11   Birmingham City   Birmingham City   290.102   14   20.722
12   Bristol City   Bristol City   285.702   14   20.407
13   Cardiff City   Cardiff City   268.020   14   19.144
14   Fulham FC   Fulham FC   262.200   14   18.729
15   Reading FC   Reading FC   242.195   14   17.300
16   Ipswich Town   Ipswich Town   234.923   14   16.780
17   Hull City   Hull City   220.041   14   15.717
18   Bolton Wanderers   Bolton Wanderers   212.202   14   15.157
19   Queens Park Rangers   Queens Park Rangers   199.768   14   14.269
20   Barnsley FC   Barnsley FC   194.307   14   13.879
21   Preston North End   Preston North End   193.067   14   13.791
22   Millwall FC   Millwall FC   177.813   14   12.701
23   Brentford FC   Brentford FC   140.781   14   10.056
24   Burton Albion   Burton Albion   65.943   14   4.710
« Last Edit: January 26, 2018, 07:39:26 am by DrillingCobbler » Report Spam   Logged
BedsCobb
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« Reply #20883 on: January 26, 2018, 07:53:18 am »

BEDS. This is what we'd be up against IF we had a 12000 capacity stadium in the Championship.

Brentford are moving stadiums soon, Burton will probably go down. We would head into that division with the smallest stadium! Still!!

Forget your sustainable growth model mate, it wouldn't work on the basis that cash that would normally be spent on the team would have to be spent on the repayments instead. We would then have a rubbish team and the crowds would probably go down, not up!

Without chucking at least 30 million quid into the pot, Our only hope for a sustainable football club in the top two tiers is (a) a good team first and foremost & (b) a Bounemouth style bankrolled entrant into the premiership.

No other 'model' would work. To attract the next level of 'investment', get the team into the championship, and attract the money people across the world to join the party.

A 12000 capacity stadium would make virtually no difference whatsoever in the grand scheme of things, other than giving us a nicer lower league ground. But with zero chance of filling it unless we got to the 2nd tier. Our overheads would go up massively as well. R&D closed the Airwair (not sure how to spell it) stand behind their goal which they spent a fortune on because they couldn't afford the running costs. MK Dons are clearly skint despite their wonderful facilities and flirtations in the Championship.

Basically, there is zero business case to go from 8000-12000 for an 'investor'. On the flip side, if the club was fan owed, and adapted your model the budget for players short term would go down unless the crowds went up massively which they wouldn't do unless the team was top of the league.

For the risk of repeating a point Im sure I've made previously, If I won 150million the euro lottery Id 'have a play' with the Cobblers, Id increase the playing budget year in year out in the hope of fluking it into the premiership, then Id 'sort the ground out'. Or flog it to someone richer than me if 'the club caught the eye' of someone during the journey. I reckon thats pretty much what our 'owners/investors' are looking to do.

20 years ago Id have done things totally differently. Probably what your suggesting. 2018 versus 1998 - completely different world now. The rich local businessman or lottery winner (!) has no place in football these days, not at the top table. Its gone way beyond that. The days of adding 2000 to your capacity and it making a difference are long gone. We are where we are mate, but I don't expect to change your opinion!  Grin Grin



   Team   sum   Matches   average
1   Leeds United   Leeds United   453.644   14   32.403
2   Aston Villa   Aston Villa   428.111   14   30.579
3   Sunderland AFC   Sunderland AFC   387.715   14   27.694
4   Wolverhampton Wanderers   Wolverhampton Wanderers   387.403   14   27.672
5   Sheffield United   Sheffield United   377.527   14   26.966
6   Derby County   Derby County   374.168   14   26.726
7   Sheffield Wednesday   Sheffield Wednesday   365.116   14   26.080
8   Norwich City   Norwich City   358.842   14   25.632
9   Middlesbrough FC   Middlesbrough FC   357.354   14   25.525
10   Nottingham Forest   Nottingham Forest   354.204   14   25.300
11   Birmingham City   Birmingham City   290.102   14   20.722
12   Bristol City   Bristol City   285.702   14   20.407
13   Cardiff City   Cardiff City   268.020   14   19.144
14   Fulham FC   Fulham FC   262.200   14   18.729
15   Reading FC   Reading FC   242.195   14   17.300
16   Ipswich Town   Ipswich Town   234.923   14   16.780
17   Hull City   Hull City   220.041   14   15.717
18   Bolton Wanderers   Bolton Wanderers   212.202   14   15.157
19   Queens Park Rangers   Queens Park Rangers   199.768   14   14.269
20   Barnsley FC   Barnsley FC   194.307   14   13.879
21   Preston North End   Preston North End   193.067   14   13.791
22   Millwall FC   Millwall FC   177.813   14   12.701
23   Brentford FC   Brentford FC   140.781   14   10.056
24   Burton Albion   Burton Albion   65.943   14   4.710
If you take our current state and put us up against several of those close to the bottom, you are right there's no way our little back water club could survive the championship.
But look again at those bottom 7 and a dozen other clubs who are even higher , they were all lower league sides in recent times some struggling to stay alive at the very bottom, but now proudly holding their own in Europes 4th biggest supported league.
While I believe we must target competing in league 1 to hopefully achieve a championship season or 3 as a minimum of our ambition,  I also fully understand its never going to happen without decent infrastructure.
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« Reply #20884 on: January 26, 2018, 07:53:55 am »

GPC has got the shareholding mixed up. Ventures owns 83.7% of the issued share capital of the football club, NTFC.  The football club has borrowed from Thomas, Bower & the BVI company £1m+ which loan is secured by Ventures shares in NTFC.  So, if push comes to shove and the lenders enforce their security any time after 31 January 2018 if the loan is not repaid the football club becomes owned by the lenders.

Where, you might well ask, are our illustrious Chines partners, 5USport, in all this. Nowhere I suggest. GPC says that the Chinese own 60% of Ventures.  Do they?

Wake up and smell the coffee guys.
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« Reply #20885 on: January 26, 2018, 08:43:23 am »

And you were doing so well until you mentioned Darlington, a town of 90, 000 so closer to Wellingborough than Northampton in stature,  that had a vast 25000 seater stadium built that they didn't need.
We dont need it either, The chairman has warned us against 30 and 20,000 capacity stadium and we all 100% agree, we dont..
Its the fact he says 6300 home capacity  (1400 away) 'is about right' for Northampton town, despite it being an embarrassment to our club for over 2 decades and has stopped us significantly  growing our support base which  is catalyst to our struggle to get out of and stay out of league 2.
The Towns population has grown by nearly 50,000 since we first played at Sixfields but yet our attendances have stayed flat.

Once again the lines of communication seem to have been distorted. Iím afraid the population of Darlington is irrelevant. The only question that is relevant is did the average gate increase following development? It is an indisputable fact that it didnt. I donít really know how else to communicate this. Trust me, it is also a fact that if you went to the banks with the justifications you offer you would be turned down on sight. As a result it is highly unlikely that you will see your campaign come to fruition unless the club  does a Bournemouth or a benefactor of considerable wealth buys the club. Good luck with it though, stranger things have happened.
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« Reply #20886 on: January 26, 2018, 20:28:39 pm »

GPC has got the shareholding mixed up. Ventures owns 83.7% of the issued share capital of the football club, NTFC.  The football club has borrowed from Thomas, Bower & the BVI company £1m+ which loan is secured by Ventures shares in NTFC.  So, if push comes to shove and the lenders enforce their security any time after 31 January 2018 if the loan is not repaid the football club becomes owned by the lenders.

Where, you might well ask, are our illustrious Chines partners, 5USport, in all this. Nowhere I suggest. GPC says that the Chinese own 60% of Ventures.  Do they?

Wake up and smell the coffee guys.
Sounds more like did they...
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« Reply #20887 on: January 26, 2018, 21:16:34 pm »

Once again the lines of communication seem to have been distorted. Iím afraid the population of Darlington is irrelevant. The only question that is relevant is did the average gate increase following development? It is an indisputable fact that it didnt. I donít really know how else to communicate this. Trust me, it is also a fact that if you went to the banks with the justifications you offer you would be turned down on sight. As a result it is highly unlikely that you will see your campaign come to fruition unless the club  does a Bournemouth or a benefactor of considerable wealth buys the club. Good luck with it though, stranger things have happened.
would it be better to properly  grow our infrastructure then in 10 years time take stock as to how much things have improved than as Thomas (who wont be around) and many of our fan base want, to stand idle without hope?
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« Reply #20888 on: January 26, 2018, 21:22:52 pm »

would it be better to properly  grow our infrastructure then in 10 years time take stock as to how much things have improved than as Thomas (who wont be around) and many of our fan base want, to stand idle without hope?
Totally agree, however the banks wonít . As a side note I have just put my head through our plaster board wall.
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« Reply #20889 on: January 26, 2018, 22:45:20 pm »

Totally agree, however the banks won’t . As a side note I have just put my head through our plaster board wall.

Beer/Keyboard moment  Grin
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« Reply #20890 on: January 27, 2018, 06:04:08 am »

Totally agree, however the banks wonít . As a side note I have just put my head through our plaster board wall.
Since when have banks advocated poor customer service, unfit infrastructure and a zero growth policy?

Small amounts of sustainable growth over a five year period using future revenues, seek  investors who will 'invest'  and many  other tried and tested methods like  stadium naming rights etc.
Doing nothing as we have these past 20 odd years is not a healthy business plan.

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« Reply #20891 on: January 27, 2018, 12:02:41 pm »

Since when have banks advocated poor customer service, unfit infrastructure and a zero growth policy?

Small amounts of sustainable growth over a five year period using future revenues, seek  investors who will 'invest'  and many  other tried and tested methods like  stadium naming rights etc.
Doing nothing as we have these past 20 odd years is not a healthy business plan.


Beds, you clearly have a love for the club and are passionate about it which I admire. Consequently I have no wish to be either unkind or disrespectful to you. However, having considerable experience on this subject in a professional capacity I really donít know how to respond to this post without doing so. So I wonít.
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« Reply #20892 on: January 27, 2018, 12:27:59 pm »

Beds, you clearly have a love for the club and are passionate about it which I admire. Consequently I have no wish to be either unkind or disrespectful to you. However, having considerable experience on this subject in a professional capacity I really donít know how to respond to this post without doing so. So I wonít.

But you just did
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« Reply #20893 on: January 27, 2018, 12:32:04 pm »

But you just did
Bugger!
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« Reply #20894 on: January 27, 2018, 17:50:30 pm »

But you just did

 Grin Grin
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« Reply #20895 on: January 29, 2018, 09:58:46 am »

Since when have banks advocated a zero growth policy?

All the time. If you don't have the capital, or growth would be detrimental, they'd absolutely advocate it.

Not that its important. As in the case of NTFC, the zero growth policy is another construct of your made up version of the club, not a fact.
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« Reply #20896 on: January 30, 2018, 12:12:47 pm »

Since when have banks advocated poor customer service, unfit infrastructure and a zero growth policy?


Ever tried directly phoning your branch? - if of course it now exists in any town smaller than Kettering!
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« Reply #20897 on: January 31, 2018, 12:13:58 pm »

Call me shortsighted, lacking in business savvy or indeed not a real supporter but I'm considerably more excited about this week's signings than news of 2000 new seats new seats being installed in the ground.
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« Reply #20898 on: January 31, 2018, 12:35:28 pm »

Call me shortsighted, lacking in business savvy or indeed not a real supporter but I'm considerably more excited about this week's signings than news of 2000 new seats new seats being installed in the ground.

But it's a moot point; there is no news about 2000 new seats being installed. Tongue
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« Reply #20899 on: January 31, 2018, 12:38:04 pm »

So am I, as I was  when Atkins built a decent squad and the times we signed Martin Smith, Ian Taylor, Josh Low, Andy Kirk etc,
But its always so short lived with unhappy costly endings.
Hopefully this time the owners can bank roll the club indefinitely without the need to build up the clubs fan base and infrastructure.
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