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Redevelopment Closer Than Ever?

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Author Topic: Redevelopment Closer Than Ever?  (Read 1819551 times)
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« Reply #23500 on: December 31, 2018, 14:58:37 pm »

So do Tell Tcobb how it what I suggest any worse that what KT has done?

KT's current ownership is more dictatorship than anything I am suggesting

I really don't understand how fan ownership can really being any worse than what we have had for the last 100 years. In fact we reached our highest position for 50 years when our last fan was owner, Barry Stonhill. Difference is now that with a collective effort we can achieve more, it is so much easier to communicate to the masses and also raise funding etc. Stevenage can do it then so can we.

I noticed you didn't reply to a previous question to you re fan ownership so I will repeat it now, would be very interested to hear yours (and others) comments...

you appear very happy with KT who is an Oxford Fan but if he was a Northampton fan you would not want him

David Jackson for example is not wanted by you as a Northampton fan but if you supported Oxford you would want him

Is this correct, can you explain your logic and why you belittle any genuine fan who wants better for NTFC and is at least trying to find a way to improve it.


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« Reply #23501 on: December 31, 2018, 15:08:28 pm »

Random, why are you asking me questions then adding your own replies ? Which by the way are totally incorrect.
You are a shining example of why fan ownership at NTFC would be doomed to fail. Your complete disregard for any suppoters who dont reach your high standards, rendering there opinons and views worthless. You call KT a dictator whilst at the same time saying most fans dont need to be listened too, exactly the same that you accuse KT of doing. You are a complete idiot and im ashamed that somebody like you  could in anyway be involved in the running of NTFC.
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« Reply #23502 on: December 31, 2018, 15:09:44 pm »

Vintage re Portsmouth I assume that the Trust there sorted out and organised the club to put into a position to be sold. This is what I want for us, i still believe we missed an opportunity with DC / NBC as it is all about control. We currently have no control and no choice, we have had an owner who has basically 'raped' NTFC / NBC of it's assets, ie the land / opportunity, dumped us back into League 2 with no saleable assets.

IF we were to get control and build it up we would at least be able to dictate terms like you mention and the club / Northampton would be in a much better position in the medium and long term

Over the last 10 years we have had owners who have seen the club as an anchor around their necks whilst they try to benefit from the land, all at which time the majority of fans have sat back and said nothing. So although i make my previous point aggressively, asking fans who just want to watch the games and not get involved is frankly a waste of time and money. As said whoever wants to gain control need to have a plan and put into action and see where the chips fall. I very much doubt any fans will stop supporting the club if it is trust run / fan owned, in fact i would hope a lot more would come out the woodwork in support.

Almost every small forward thinking community focused club is doing quite well at this moment in time, clubs like Wrexham, Wycombe, Exeter, Lincoln, Burton, Accrington. Its time we joined them.

Does anyone know what has happened at Chesterfield?  New ground, executive boxes, biggish town etc but massively underachieving?
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« Reply #23503 on: December 31, 2018, 15:19:51 pm »

Tcobb I see you once again fail to give an opinion other than belittling individuals who don't agree with you

I also see that you once again fail to give an answer to my question, what a surprise

I am not sure disregard other supporters but the fact is 98% of fans obviously don't really care who the owner is and most don't care about anything that is not on the pitch based.

How would you describe yourself?  If the club was fan owned would you help out in any way?  If you did then great but if not then what difference does it make what your thoughts are?

Also please please please please tell me how or when exactly has KT done anything that has been in the fans best interests above his own (other than cut a hole in the bog wall for a 2nd door)



 
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« Reply #23504 on: December 31, 2018, 15:31:30 pm »

So yet again your saying unless myself, or any other fan, wants to help run a fan owned club, i/we should be ignored ?
I have never been a great believer of KT, i dont think he has delivered much or has any intention of doing so. But for you to completly disregard anybody who did/does have faith in him, is very foolish and shows that people like yourself should be avoided and all costs when it comes to running a football club.
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« Reply #23505 on: December 31, 2018, 15:34:38 pm »

Also I am not saying fans shouldn't be listened to, I am saying if the Trust board want to gain control of the club then they should go ahead. If any Trust member doesn't agree then give them their membership money back. You can see the mess the country is in because they asked the people a simple yes / no question. Those people asked had no clue what was involved or how things would be different going forward.

For the club to grow it needs to be run by people with passion, ambition and attention to detail, by people who put the club (and fans) first. I am saying the vast majority of fans just want to support their team on a Saturday and don't want to be involved in anything else

I will give you two examples when I was helping at the club....

One time when i was in the West stand concourse (i was outside most of the time) I noticed an advertisement that was covered in mold, that featured Giles Coke (a player long left and sued the club) 'selling' a club tie (that we did not stock), now how many fans and staff members has walked passed that sign and took no notice. How does that reflect on NTFC as a business?

Another time I was in club shop and a young family came in asking about season tickets, I took them into the ground and showed them seats available, so they could check out the view etc, I also pointed out that their son could get a free season ticket etc, they immediately signed up there and then. Pretty sure they would not have done that if they had just been given the prices.

I know that there are plenty of other fans who want to help, want to get involved with the above passion and attention to detail to drive NTFC forward

So please again tell me how we are better off with outsider investors who only want our land?

  
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« Reply #23506 on: December 31, 2018, 15:39:42 pm »

So what say would you want then Tcobb?  You have none now, you say you don't want fans, you don't want to do anything about anything so what say do you want?

Why should you have a say if you don't want to actually do anything?  i don't understand

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« Reply #23507 on: December 31, 2018, 16:02:58 pm »

I dont want people like you any where near the Football Club i have supported for years, hows that for starters. Yet again you have complete disregard for your fellow supporters. Give them their money back and expel them from the Trust if they dont agree with you and your croines ? Supporters who arent in the Trust dont need to be listened to either ? Just how many people does that leave for your Communist Coup d'etat ?
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« Reply #23508 on: December 31, 2018, 16:13:03 pm »

LOL Tcobb, funny how you pick one thing and ignore everything else i say

Yeah course you are a model supporter and everyone should bow down to you and your thoughts , what a f***ing joke of a supporter you are

You doing nothing but shoot down anyone who wants more for NTFC yet happily sit back and say / do nothing whilst current owner / investors treat you and the club with utter contempt

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« Reply #23509 on: December 31, 2018, 16:25:07 pm »

What a mug you are. You dont even know me, how the hell can you sit in your perfect world judging me, just shows what an arrogant little twat you are.
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« Reply #23510 on: December 31, 2018, 16:42:25 pm »

Quite extraordinary the way contributors to this forum (who have in common a deep and shared interest in NTFC) find the need to be so rude to each other. This is a discussion forum and includes some weird and wacky views but that doesn't mean you should resort to name-calling and being downright juvenile. Laugh at certain contributions, counter a view but for Martin Geoffrey Smith's sake respect each other. Please.
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« Reply #23511 on: December 31, 2018, 16:50:50 pm »

Manwork, just by keeping an important matter like fan ownership to the Trust, you risk alienating the rest of the support.
If the Trust really want to pursue fan ownership then all fans need to be consulted.
Tcobb the point I am making is we need to crystallise what it is we are going to ask the fan base, 100% fan ownership isn't viable so we need a business plan before we ask for support.
Then we will have a credible set of questions based around that business plan.
Random is a genuine supporter as I am sure you are, we all want the same thing so let's not lower ourselves to name calling.
Happy New Year.
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« Reply #23512 on: December 31, 2018, 18:11:17 pm »

KT supports West Ham, just FYI.
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« Reply #23513 on: December 31, 2018, 18:29:16 pm »

I have heard on the qt that he is a Posh fan!
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« Reply #23514 on: December 31, 2018, 18:35:21 pm »

I will give you one example when I was helping at the club....

One time when i was in the West stand concourse (i was outside most of the time) I noticed an advertisement that was covered in mold, that featured Giles Coke (a player long left and sued the club) 'selling' a club tie (that we did not stock), now how many fans and staff members has walked passed that sign and took no notice. How does that reflect on NTFC as a business?
Random, you are very good at picking up on what people say. So, in a reciprocal argument, I offer the following : you noticed an advert? Whoopee ding dong. Well done son. I now expect you to bombard me with "facts". Dont let me down.









  
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« Reply #23515 on: December 31, 2018, 22:53:30 pm »

Much as I want the present owners to depart due to their abject failure to progress the club on and off the pitch as witnessed by their complete lack of any intent I don’t think that fans’ ownership is viable if what is meant by it is 100% ownership.  It may work for a while but it was telling to me that Portsmouth Supporters Trust was quick to sell out to a moneybags from the USA and now they sit top of L1.  No one can say it was the wrong decision.

What should be feasible is a joint venture (say, 75:25) between the Trust and a local businessman or businessmen willing to invest serious amounts of money to provide us (a) with a stadium befitting an expanding town with a current population of 230,000 and a very large catchment area and (b) the resources to have our own training ground and infrastructure.  The Trust should be represented with at least 2 places on the board of NTFC and the constitution of NTFC amended so that these places are enshrined and cannot be changed by future owners.  This can be done by a shareholders agreement.  This protection was the minimum the Council should have insisted on at the time of Thomas’ arrival but failed to do.  It follows that the Trust would need to ensure that its appointees to the board are able to hold their own at this level and represent the supporters in a proper and professional manner.

What we have at the present time are owners who are opaque on those land/redevelopment issues that concern us and the lack of transparency has to be a cause for serious concern.  There is widespread concern that the real interest of DB/KT lies in the CDNL. 

My view is that the Trust has also been deficient in its communications with its members as many have commented on over this holiday period.  This may be due to the Trust not having a clear strategy when it comes to our owners.  Three years into the current ownership and the facts speak for themselves however much Thomas tries to lay the blame at the door of the Council.  His credibility has to be at breaking point.  My observation is that the Trust representatives have had the occasional meeting with Thomas and followed up with meetings with the Council to try and verify the truth of the reasons behind the lack of any redevelopment progress.  No substantive reports have been issued and so members and supporters are really none the wiser. Frustration is growing amongst those who care and recognise that the future of the club depends largely on a successful outcome but this looks less and less likely.  The Trust appears to be impotent in the face of owners whose reasons for being here are openly questioned by many and a Council which also tells us little or nothing and seems intent on delaying matters.  Both our owners and NBC have excelled in procrastination.  None of this is assisted by a local media that is soft and unquestioning. 

For my buck the Trust needs to change its stance and dynamics or become an irrelevance which, unfortunately, it already it is to a large numbers of supporters. That can change but there has to be the will amongst the members and the directors to make the change.



Perhaps 51% ownership would be the right figure? Talking of which how much are we talking? I would say around 17 million. That should be enough to be able to finance the club and offer some stability. If this was a viable option the last thing you would need is to be under immediate financial pressure from the off. 3000 supporters putting up 3 grand gets you 9 million. 6000 supporters putting up £1500 = the same. If the corporate sector could raise the other 49% that gets you home. That is the reality of what we are talking about. If you feel 17 million is too much or indeed not enough the alter the ratios accordingly. There would be almost insurmountable hurdles to overcome and it would take considerable effort over a protracted period to even stand half a chance of succeeding. The point is that you would need thousands of supporters to invest 4 figure sums to get this idea off the ground. Unless people are prepared to do this then any realistic talk of fan ownership is finished. So the first question should be, is this what we really want? Then by how many and how much would they be prepared to put up? Many on here have claimed the club is a sound investment opportunity that with a bit of effort could attract interest from a huge catchment area? Well now is the opportunity to prove it and even put up their own cash to back their judgment? The fact is that if we are not prepared to try something different then the club will most likely continue to change hands between speculators who have little love for the club, and that puts us in the lap of the gods. So the question remains what are you prepared to do and how many share that vision?
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« Reply #23516 on: January 01, 2019, 08:28:27 am »

Perhaps 51% ownership would be the right figure? Talking of which how much are we talking? I would say around 17 million. That should be enough to be able to finance the club and offer some stability. If this was a viable option the last thing you would need is to be under immediate financial pressure from the off. 3000 supporters putting up 3 grand gets you 9 million. 6000 supporters putting up £1500 = the same. If the corporate sector could raise the other 49% that gets you home. That is the reality of what we are talking about. If you feel 17 million is too much or indeed not enough the alter the ratios accordingly. There would be almost insurmountable hurdles to overcome and it would take considerable effort over a protracted period to even stand half a chance of succeeding. The point is that you would need thousands of supporters to invest 4 figure sums to get this idea off the ground. Unless people are prepared to do this then any realistic talk of fan ownership is finished. So the first question should be, is this what we really want? Then by how many and how much would they be prepared to put up? Many on here have claimed the club is a sound investment opportunity that with a bit of effort could attract interest from a huge catchment area? Well now is the opportunity to prove it and even put up their own cash to back their judgment? The fact is that if we are not prepared to try something different then the club will most likely continue to change hands between speculators who have little love for the club, and that puts us in the lap of the gods. So the question remains what are you prepared to do and how many share that vision?
Thomas took over the club for £160k plus a few other bits, hasn't invested any significant amount since and has lost a vast chunk of potential earnings with a badly timed relegation, as well as alienating himself from the Town and clubs supporters  in land squabbles with the council.
But even so he claims the club is still stable and viable.
So the notion you need to raise £17,000,000 is a bit fanciful.
Yes there would be a need for 50% improvement in all season ticket sales,  pay at the gate revenue , matchday food and beverages takings , corporate takings, advertising,  etc etc,  also getting as many local businesses to in some little way show support for the clubs future redevelopment plans which would be carried out in stages over several year period.
When the Town folk see their football club having an interesting  viable plan for growth, they will back it, when they srart seeing some progress it will help the momentum.
Playing in league 1 with gates of 8000 in a 10 to 12000 capacity atmospheric stadium that gives the same sense of pride felt by the Saints rugby fans, is key to any long term success and has got to be our ultimate goal.
Getting 4000 more supporters happily  coming through the gate to watch league 1 football over a 5 year period with increased revenues in all other areas is equivalent to your £17m but a lot more valuable long term.
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« Reply #23517 on: January 01, 2019, 09:07:53 am »

As I have said repeatedly, doing something just for the sake of it is hardly progress. Nobody is able to illustrate a fan owned club that has achieved much more than we are currently doing. There is virtually no examples of investment in infrastructure. Certainly no significant examples of investment in players.

I’m not suggesting that we are lucky to have what we’ve got. Far from it. But at the very worse it is no different to what we have endured for decades. Every managerial appointment has been almost universally accepted. We certainly saw probably one of the best seasons most of us have ever seen. In addition to that, I can't see any evidence that we are any worse of than most of the lower league clubs in this country. we appear to be bobbing along as an ok led, solvent business. With the addition of a couple of decent signings, we could potentially push for the play offs.

So... What I’m saying will draw the usual derision for not being ambitious enough. And all I can do is agree with that. It isn’t. But anyone that advocates fan ownership as anything more than a nice change, is quite frankly talking rubbish. For us to push past the current barriers to change we don’t need good intentions, we need a cash rich investor.

The reason I suggest we canvass the support is obvious. Debate wise we have somehow managed to make Brexit look a doddle. On one side we have Beds an co, driving around a big red bus, with ridiculous figures on the side, with numbers that are laughable and the business equivalent of wetting your finger and sticking it in the air. Amidst that you have people who sit where I sit. Who aren’t mad on the current state of affairs, but want to see something better, but aren’t necessarily phased by the current situation. Believing that the club is up for grabs. And hopefully those that are interested, just get on with it. Then in the fan ownership camp, you have the well meaning greens/liberals. They believe that by being nice and remaining hopefull, things will turn out nice. They substitute hard cash with a plethora of optimism and pipe dreams.

At the moment there are no viable altertives to either the current owner, or at least one party that they are in discussions with. I am happy to attend the Trusts board, purely to be enlightened as to what they propose, and indeed what figures they are projecting. I'm interested to what extent they have looked at the figures etc. Like any interested party, they deserve a chance to prove they can progress us past the bottom two leagues.

A lot has been said on many forums about who runs our club. I spend a huge amount of time in two cities that for me epitomise the struggles of football. Portsmouth & Plymouth. Both sides that are definitely bigger than us. I spend many evenings in pubs and restaurants in both cities. A reasonable chunk of my work life is spent their. Plymouth's chairman James Brent took them from potential liquidation to a well financed solvent club over a seven year period. However, he is stepping down as chairman , to a backdrop of vitriol aimed at him from social media. Attendances and gate receipts are up, but the are looking like relegation fodder at the moment. The current development of their main stand is underway, but everyone is universally disappointed at the time it took to achieve, and what a lot of the support see as the knock on effect on the team. James Brent absolutely illustrates the damned if you do, damned if you don’t culture that prevails on social media.

Portsmouth... Well, an advert for fan ownership or not. Erm.. They are delighted with fan ownership, because it saved them. It didn’t do much for all the poor sods who were owed millions by PFC. But how often have any of us shed a tear for those that were screwed over by NTFC numerous times over the years. In general fan ownership was viewed as a safety net when the club was insolvent, but that’s where the gratitude generally ends. I don’t find many supporters that entertained the idea of progression under fan ownership. It will come as no surprise that Michael Eisner (Tornante company) he of Disney extract, is viewed as the second coming. In short... The fan ownership was seen as a period of well meaning babysitting and no more.

So after all of that. And I’m the first to accept that is only my view. I remain where I always have. Until something better comes along, we are where we are. However, in my mind at the moment, something better, is not fan ownership. But, I might feel different after meeting the Trust.
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« Reply #23518 on: January 01, 2019, 09:20:29 am »

Fan ownership discussion a bit like discussing Brexit. A lot of arguing over a concept and very little detail. That's where the Trust can step in. Get Supporters Direct down and start seriously discussing the various fan-ownership models. Start canvassing local business interests for a joint share.

Never been a better time for fan ownership though in terms of EFL turnover, steady gates with potential to increase, New TV deal income up, FA Cup prize money up, Checkatrade prize money up. Any assault on the Championship or higher will take mega money. KT has had a fair amount of time to attract that investment and hasn't done it, in that light a sustainable fan-owned club is a realistic and sensible prospect.

One of the first things a fan-owned entity should do is explore a sporting club setup with the Saints and Steelbacks imo.
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« Reply #23519 on: January 01, 2019, 09:35:48 am »

How about asking all the fans what they want first ?
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