Redevelopment Closer Than Ever?

[Terryfenwickatemyhamster]

No one (i.e. a buyer) in their right mind is going to buy the club and repay the debt plus the cost of finishing the East Stand.  I am sure that DB & KT are a significantly smarter act than the previous owners but whichever way you cut it the club is once again heavily in debt and I would say that the position could well have got worse since last June rather than better since income will be down this financial year with relegation, there is the cost of DA's dismissal and although Crooks and KVV are off the payroll they have been on it for half the current financial year.  What you are saying is in DB & KT you trust.  I hope you are right.  We trusted them to honour their commitment on the East Stand and 3.5 years later................................

I doubt very much that Trust is relevant. Anyone that comes on here, or anywhere else stating what KT said a few years back, or saying what the debt is, only proves they can hear and read. The trend of stating the obvious, doesn’t automatically equate to superior knowledge or insight into the situation. It just proves that you have a reasonable appraisal of something that is out in plain sight and we all know.

I doubt that anybody questions that like a lot of clubs at our level, there are financial issues. The key issue here, is what you have in your locker to solve it. I openly admit that I have no idea what to do about it. If I had a clue, I would be the panacea for all financially struggling clubs. All I can hope for is a rich benefactor taking a shine to NTFC. In the absence of that, I'm not going to attempt impressing fellow supporters, by demonstrating my ability of knowing what everyone else knows.

[Vintage Cobbler]

Another exercise in sarcasm from you. You neglect to comment that our owners have managed to load the club with almost another £2million of debt so making any sale more difficult to the rich benefactor who may be willing to take on the mess our owners have created.

I note that Exeter City are fan owned, have no debt and are 7 places above us in L2. They also have a new stand.

[everbrite]

Maybe the balance sheet from last week 

As Alfred has suggested those facts you support are months old.

[guest48]

As Alfred has suggested those facts you support are months old.

They became public knowledge LAST WEEK !!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Deepcut Cobbler]

All parts and no "one sided mantra".  You will see soon enough who is right and who is wrong.

I have transferred this discussion to this thread:
It's not a case of who is right and who is wrong, it's ascertaining what is the evidential truth, of which there is currently very little aside from the company's house financial sheet that Barton has posted.  Even that is from last summer and doesn't reveal the circumstances behind that increase in debt and what has happened since?  Was it to enable the club to keep running on an even keel over a particular period of managerial churn and associated new signings?  When the average loss for fourth tier clubs is £500k per season, a £2m increase is just about par for the course over the period?  (That's not a fact so don't quote me)

Unlike you, I am not attempting to point score, I am attempting to identify and confirm which of the 'facts' being presented by various posters is wheat and which is chaff.  If you are unable to deal and respond appropriately with a challenge to your 'facts', can I suggest that you stop posting them?

You may be correct, however I believe that there is a lot more behind all of this than you/we are aware of therefore not able to include in your/our 'facts'.
If all aspects of the situation were fully transparent, we could all make a balanced assessment and opinion.  Unfortunately, this doesn't look likely to happen in the immediate future and DB/KT aren't obliged to reveal any of it, aside from the publicly available annual accounts.

I do not have an agenda against anyone, we all want the same or a very similar thing from/with the club, the difference is that some of us apply a more pragmatic view to what is or isn't going on.

[guest170]

https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/00183917/filing-history

I find quite surprising that not many are questioning that NTFC have recorded their highest loss EVER, £2.1M in a year !!!  People have mentioned that it's down to the 5U Sports not coming up with the money, but surely experienced business people don't spend money that they haven't yet received, even more so if it's coming from a country like China.
     It's also said that the losses are being "covered" but, from my understanding, they are being loaded onto NTFC Ltd not staying with the other companies farther up the line, like NTFC Ventures and Belle De Jour.
     The Trust got hammered on here for an ill thought out document but the same people who did the hammering seam quite content with the current owners/ management losing around £40,000 a week. 
      Have a think about it folks.

Not content at all and it is a worrying position to be in. The challenge is the details behind it. What % was due to 5USport, even though I agree it was a risk to spend the money before it was in the bank, what % is general running, what % is legal fees and what % is down to paying high wages for players and managers and paying off managers. The last point then leads on to what would we do if we had a fan owned club. Would we have been able to sack poor management (and the argument isn't we would have hired a better manager) or would we have had to endure. My concern with fan owned is that we wont be able to progress and at best will stand still.
Both the accounts issue above, and the concept of fan ownership are both concerning for me but one does not magically fix the other. Neither are particularly palatable but if asked for my opinion between KT or the Trust, currently it would be KT every time 

Oh, and im still waiting on confirmation if the meeting with the council and subsequent statement was approved by the board or not.

[tcobb]

Vintage, are you taking into account that Fan owned Exeter have made a lot of money from player sales,  without which, they would have not been able to afford a new stand.

[JollyCobbler]

I doubt very much that Trust is relevant. Anyone that comes on here, or anywhere else stating what KT said a few years back, or saying what the debt is, only proves they can hear and read. The trend of stating the obvious, doesn’t automatically equate to superior knowledge or insight into the situation. It just proves that you have a reasonable appraisal of something that is out in plain sight and we all know.

I doubt that anybody questions that like a lot of clubs at our level, there are financial issues. The key issue here, is what you have in your locker to solve it. I openly admit that I have no idea what to do about it. If I had a clue, I would be the panacea for all financially struggling clubs. All I can hope for is a rich benefactor taking a shine to NTFC. In the absence of that, I'm not going to attempt impressing fellow supporters, by demonstrating my ability of knowing what everyone else knows.

I think that's his point. The information is there to be assessed, and yet there are some who will always refuse to see the wood for the trees. While I'd agree we are under better stewardship than the previous administration, these figures indicate a potential problem. As an owner, there has to come a point of diminishing returns. No one can just keep pumping money in (loans or otherwise), not even an avid fan of the club - which Thomas and Bower have never claimed to be.
For those that say 'You think DB is going to think "yeah fcuk it ill write off the best part of 4m"'. Well, yeah, it could easily happen. There comes a point when even wealthy people decide to cut their losses.   

[JollyCobbler]

As Alfred has suggested those facts you support are months old.

It's a wonder you haven't choked to death on sand.

[Terryfenwickatemyhamster]

Another exercise in sarcasm from you. You neglect to comment that our owners have managed to load the club with almost another £2million of debt so making any sale more difficult to the rich benefactor who may be willing to take on the mess our owners have created.

I note that Exeter City are fan owned, have no debt and are 7 places above us in L2. They also have a new stand.

I haven't neglected to add anything. I just don't want to enter into the same game of stating the obvious that you and a few others undertake on a routine basis. Of course any debt, unless it's written off, makes us a less attractive option. We hardly need you to point that out in order for us to have grasped it. My point is less about sarcasm, and more about what are you going to do about any of it?

Just for ease of discussion, I will agree with you that the clubs position is precarious. What happens next? Unless KT & DB relinquish control, there won't be any movement. So just like I have said to Roger and co, get yourselves together and organise something tangible. Let's see just how much you, Beds, Random etc actually care. Speak to the Trust and offer to rally the support with them. Grove who posts on here was the instigator of the march from the town hall. He felt strongly enough to facilitate that. You could be the start of something that galvanises the support, or you could camp on here here like a few others, telling us what we already know. You mention Exeter, which coincidentally is a model that none of the moaners would adopt in a million years. But either way. Give them a call. Ask them how they got things going.

It's not sarcastic to state that it's boring hearing rehashes of the same point, coming from the same few people whilst they sit on their hands doing nothing about it. I'm quite happy for you to admit if your concern doesn't extend any further than tapping a keyboard.  

[Terryfenwickatemyhamster]

I think that's his point. The information is there to be assessed, and yet there are some who will always refuse to see the wood for the trees.

I don't think that's the case. Some of us might not throw our hands up despair, or get into daily disputes about the current incumbents, but that doesn't we are in denial or ignorant. I have met with something like 15-20 different people about my thoughts on the subject. From the Trust, From the club. Including some names that have been touted as potential investors. I believe I have a very clear view on the situation. Certainly more so than most.

The problem isn't that people aren't listening. The problem is the arrogance of those labouring the same point. They are not the type of people that understand a reasoned response. They are keyboard activists. I'm merely challenging them to get the message that they have passionately pursued from the luxury of their homes, across to the support at meetings, games and other ways. It's a very simple test of how far their passion goes. It's not meant to be rude. It's just plain old commonsense   

[everbrite]

It's a wonder you haven't choked to death on sand.

You are a "keyboard activist" - and not a very bright one

[everbrite]

They became public knowledge LAST WEEK !!!!!!!!!!!!!

I know that but even so they are nine months old...............don't really understand what your point is. I asked for Man04 to advise on the facts he referred to. Presumably there are other facts

[guest48]

I know that but even so they are nine months old...............don't really understand what your point is. )

They are the most up to date figures available and they became available last week, because they became available last week they are, what is know as NEWS !!

[guest48]

. The last point then leads on to what would we do if we had a fan owned club. Would we have been able to sack poor management (and the argument isn't we would have hired a better manager) or would we have had to endure. .

Paying off failed managers is a big problem, but NTFC don't seem to have learned their lesson, they gave KC a 2.75 year contract. Pretty much the same as Page, Edinburgh, JFH and DA, how many times do you need to be kicked in the b*llocks before you realise that it hurts ?
   The only manager who we all wanted to stay was on a 1 year rolling contract and I really can't see a reason for giving out anything longer.

[JollyCobbler]

You are a "keyboard activist" - and not a very bright one

Oh, the irony. And I doubt you even see it! 

[guest170]

Paying off failed managers is a big problem, but NTFC don't seem to have learned their lesson, they gave KC a 2.75 year contract. Pretty much the same as Page, Edinburgh, JFH and DA, how many times do you need to be kicked in the b*llocks before you realise that it hurts ?
   The only manager who we all wanted to stay was on a 1 year rolling contract and I really can't see a reason for giving out anything longer.

Cannot disagree with that, I would much prefer managers to be on that sort of contract but cannot imagine many would sign up for it either. Unfortunately most of football seems to be 2-4 year contacts that managers get sacked / paid off of and cant see that changing any time soon, as much as we would all love it to.

[everbrite]

They are the most up to date figures available and they became available last week, because they became available last week they are, what is know as NEWS !!

Perhaps so but as pointed out by Alfred they are 9 months old. Getting back to the point(s) in question I assumed that Man04 had some more facts to reveal; in addition to the financial statements shown recently.

[guest48]

Cannot disagree with that, I would much prefer managers to be on that sort of contract but cannot imagine many would sign up for it either. Unfortunately most of football seems to be 2-4 year contacts that managers get sacked / paid off of and cant see that changing any time soon, as much as we would all love it to.

I've heard this before that xxxxx wouldn't sign up for it but I don't buy that. Take KC, he was an out of work League 2 manager with no promotions on his CV after quite a few years in management, I would have offered him, or anyone else for that mater, a 12 month rolling contract then if he doesn't want it move on to someone who does. There are loads of out of work football mangers, it's not as if he's Jurgen Klopp or Pep is it?

[guest48]

Perhaps so but as pointed out by Alfred they are 9 months old. .

I'm struggling here, we all know that the figures are for the last financial year, BUT they are also the latest figures available and they only became available last week. Surely you can see this?