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Redevelopment Closer Than Ever?

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memyhead
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« Reply #25280 on: July 19, 2019, 13:56:58 pm »

Who is Muzzy - apologies that I do not know immediately.

https://www.ntfc.co.uk/news/2018/april/mustafa_receives_award/
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« Reply #25281 on: July 19, 2019, 15:37:17 pm »

You absolutely can. And in fact you should.

Let's for one minute get away from the ideas that surround ownership. This should never have been an unconditional gift from the council. No matter what money they put into the infrastructure of Sixfields stadium, the council would be the ultimate beneficiary. They own it. As the landlords they should have been involved in every aspect of the demolition, design and construction of the East Stand. In fact, you should totally argue that none of the finances even needed to pass through the hands of the Cardozas or any company set up to manage the construction money. If I was funding the upgrade of a leased facility that I owned, I can't imagine why I would be handing over millions of pounds to the Tenant. I would agree staged payments to the main contractor. It was absolutely appropriate for the Cardozas to be involved in the design, because whatever was built needs to generate operating income and hopefully some profit. But why that ever ended up as large amounts of money being put their way I'm not sure. Prior to the money being given to the Cardozas, I sent numerous emails to the council and to David Mackintosh (which have been seen by others on here) asking who was presiding over the release of the money, and pleading with them not to release it to them. Mackintosh totally dismissed any notion that the money could go missing, as did the council.

All of that is water under the bridge. We have to move on from that. I totally appreciate the Trusts involvement and think that they are doing their level best to look at alternatives to the current impasse. But I doubt if even they are investing a lot of trust into the council at the moment. I still think that we are where we were from the day KT come in. And where I have always thought it would be. I think KT/DB will acquire what they want. Then we will be totally at the mercy of their intent. I'm going to sit firmly on the fence in terms of how that will go for the club...



It was so incompetent and in contradiction to standard procedure I am sure there may be some speculation that it was somehow intentional? Not that I believe that personally and wish to prejudice any ongoing investigation of course?
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« Reply #25282 on: July 19, 2019, 18:02:58 pm »

A day or two of sensible comments which is good.  I may be bit closer to this vexed issue than most but let me just add so that no one can be any doubt:

- there is nothing preventing KT/DB completing the East Stand other than the will to do that. 

- there is nothing preventing KT/DB (CDNL in this context) signing the Deed of Surrender presented by NBC to CDNL in June 2018 and this would remove once and for all any legal questions as to which of NTFC or CDNL owns that stretch of land from the back of the East Stand to the middle of the athletics track area.

The fact that on both counts our owners have done nothing should tell supporters all they need to know.  So, as Tel rightly says, what the hell are supporters going to do about it? The Trust is doing what it can but rather than ill considered and inaccurate comments from some about the Trust alienating KT (could it be the other way round?) react and let your voices be heard.


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« Reply #25283 on: July 19, 2019, 18:34:16 pm »

A day or two of sensible comments which is good.  I may be bit closer to this vexed issue than most but let me just add so that no one can be any doubt:
- there is nothing preventing KT/DB completing the East Stand other than the will to do that. 
- there is nothing preventing KT/DB (CDNL in this context) signing the Deed of Surrender presented by NBC to CDNL in June 2018 and this would remove once and for all any legal questions as to which of NTFC or CDNL owns that stretch of land from the back of the East Stand to the middle of the athletics track area.
The fact that on both counts our owners have done nothing should tell supporters all they need to know.  So, as Tel rightly says, what the hell are supporters going to do about it? The Trust is doing what it can but rather than ill considered and inaccurate comments from some about the Trust alienating KT (could it be the other way round?) react and let your voices be heard.
Could the Trust not help in organising this?
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« Reply #25284 on: July 19, 2019, 18:39:12 pm »

The Trust's most recent statement is clear.  Next Thursday it is holding an Open Forum to which all are invited so I suggest you come along and make your views known.
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« Reply #25285 on: July 19, 2019, 18:48:35 pm »

The Trust's most recent statement is clear.  Next Thursday it is holding an Open Forum to which all are invited so I suggest you come along and make your views known.

Work dictates I am in North Devon on Thursday, so no way of making it back I'm afraid.

Many people won't be able to make it I would suspect, either through work or not living locally etc.

Hopefully something is decided and the Trust relays it back to all of the fans and we can get behind it.
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« Reply #25286 on: July 19, 2019, 18:53:10 pm »

May I suggest that rather than ask what the Trust is doing consider what you can do for the Trust whatever your work and other commitments may be. 

All the Trust directors have job and family commitments as well.
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« Reply #25287 on: July 19, 2019, 22:53:20 pm »

Red flags should have been raised as soon as First Land got involved, why did NTFC need another company between them and Buckinghams ? Buckinghams had built quite a few stands and I'm 100% sure that they could have done everything that was needed to complete that stand without First Land. When you think about why were First Land bought in,  there is only one answer and that is to take money out of the pot, allegedly  Shocked

I don't have any problem with the idea of a project management company per se; although as major stakeholders I would have expected NBC to thoroughly vet First Land's credentials: and this should have been enough to sound alarm bells, as it was for a number of us naysayers on here.
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« Reply #25288 on: July 19, 2019, 22:56:30 pm »

You absolutely can. And in fact you should.

Let's for one minute get away from the ideas that surround ownership. This should never have been an unconditional gift from the council. No matter what money they put into the infrastructure of Sixfields stadium, the council would be the ultimate beneficiary. They own it. As the landlords they should have been involved in every aspect of the demolition, design and construction of the East Stand. In fact, you should totally argue that none of the finances even needed to pass through the hands of the Cardozas or any company set up to manage the construction money. If I was funding the upgrade of a leased facility that I owned, I can't imagine why I would be handing over millions of pounds to the Tenant. I would agree staged payments to the main contractor. It was absolutely appropriate for the Cardozas to be involved in the design, because whatever was built needs to generate operating income and hopefully some profit. But why that ever ended up as large amounts of money being put their way I'm not sure. Prior to the money being given to the Cardozas, I sent numerous emails to the council and to David Mackintosh (which have been seen by others on here) asking who was presiding over the release of the money, and pleading with them not to release it to them. Mackintosh totally dismissed any notion that the money could go missing, as did the council.






Pretty much nail on head.
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« Reply #25289 on: July 19, 2019, 23:27:05 pm »

I think it is worth understanding that the council were the only option the Cardozas had to raise funds for development. As stated before the banks and similar institutions simply wouldn’t be an option as the return on investment and security factors were practically non existent. However, the council is an organisation very poorly equipped to handle contracts and transactions of this nature? There are many competing motivations and agendas the decision making process is often flawed, and in some cases fatally. There are so many questions that come out of that time it is difficult to comprehend the thought processes that were going on, particularly from those in positions of responsibility? What is absolutely clear from this case and many other incidents that have taken place over the years is that the council cannot be counted upon to make reliable decisions. Yet it is blatantly obvious that any changes or progress the club may wish to make are going to invariably be reliant on the support and involvement of the council. That is always going to be a concern as this unfolds, because the future of the club is dependant on it. It worries me anyway.
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« Reply #25290 on: July 20, 2019, 08:50:37 am »

I am in complete agreement with Tel concerning the Council. 

Beware of shifting sands.  Only a few months after NBC set out its “red lines” the first one appears to be dropped, that is condition 1 – the insistence on the signing of the deed of surrender by CDNL (i.e. KT/DB).  This would settle the leasehold footprint from the back of the East Stand to the middle of the running track in favour of NTFC and, most important, its future owners and us the supporters.  Remember KT said this was the one issue holding up completion of the East Stand. As soon as the Council agreed to this correction our owners move the goalposts, refuse to sign the legal document and seek to make finishing the East Stand conditional on the wider development, which we all know is why they are here in the first place.  We can place no trust in our owners to do anything other than look after their own interests.  They will pay lip service to acting in the best interests of the club.  In the meantime KC will have to manage playing matters with a modest League 2 budget. Supporter indifference is going to be a big factor in “football man” KT succeeding in being “developer man”.   Supporters need to find their voices.

That such an “error” affecting NTFC’s leasehold land should have been made or allowed to have occurred is an example (there are plenty more but that is for another day) of the incompetence of the Council.  Whether there is more to this than gross negligence is for the police investigation to determine but it is certainly questionable. 

What seems to have escaped many is that CDNL has 2 long leases from the Council – the first from the eastern edge of the running track to the back of the East Stand (which covers the area that is already part of the NTFC lease) and the second is a much larger area which encompasses the North Car Park, the overflow car park, the refuse tip and land going towards Franklin Gardens.  It looks to me that having permanently lost the South Car Park our other car parks are at risk.  Traffic chaos on match-days could be the outcome.  The leases were acquired by KT/DB from the Liquidators of CDNL for a paltry sum of £170,000.  Again, the Council were utterly inept in ever allowing this to happen. 

What I am saying, and this is where I would disagree fundamentally with Beds, is that the Council must bear great responsibility for the present dismal situation.  On the plus side the Council is listening and the current Leader and CEO are not tainted with any responsibility for the mess they have inherited. But my concern is that, as we may be seeing, the interests of development and profit reign supreme.  It is more likely than not that we will see a re-run of the 2013 structure under which the Council receives a significant capital sum for selling the freehold to CDNL (it was to be £6.5 million previously) and a share in the plot sales above an agreed figure (in 2013 it was to be 50% of the gross above £110 million).  The result will be the Council recovering the “missing millions” plus, plus, KT & DB will make millions probably by selling on CDNL with planning permission for a very big sum and, if we are lucky, we may get a completed but totally unsatisfactory East Stand.  All the signs are that our owners won’t spend a penny on doing what they committed to doing in 2015 without “satisfactory planning permission” for the wider development.  This may well be well into the future – years not months.  Draw your own conclusions on the owners acting in the best interests of the club.  So far they have taken the Council to the cleaners and the club is burdened with debt and owners unwilling to invest in its infrastructure. 

On the land behind the East Stand to the middle of the athletics track, I suspect that in the final analysis KT/DB are not that concerned.  Their eyes are on the wider development and the prospects of big profits.  The winners will be KT/DB and the Council, the losers NTFC, future owners, supporters and generations of supporters to come, that is if we have a club to support.

Stand up and fight.
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« Reply #25291 on: July 20, 2019, 09:14:13 am »

May I suggest that rather than ask what the Trust is doing consider what you can do for the Trust whatever your work and other commitments may be. 
All the Trust directors have job and family commitments as well.

Barring getting involved in any protests etc on match days, and paying a sub into the Trust, very little as I cover the whole of the south of England and very rarely am I based locally during the week.

I think the Trust are doing a great job in making these statements, but there never seems to be any plan of action after them. Hopefully this meeting will change that.
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« Reply #25292 on: July 23, 2019, 10:56:52 am »

Have the Trust formally invited KT or any NTFC board members/hierarchy to Thursday's meeting?

I appreciate it's an open meeting but would be nice to find some common ground for all involved, especially with NBC members attending...

Even if invites were sent to the club & declined, at least it would show the Trust are trying to collectively move forward with the club...rather than the split it feels like there is at present.
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« Reply #25293 on: July 23, 2019, 12:42:21 pm »

May I suggest that rather than ask what the Trust is doing consider what you can do for the Trust whatever your work and other commitments may be.

Purleaseee don't bring that kind of attitude on to the forum, this is one of the reasons why many people won't sign up for the trust.


Lets bang it into perspective....

"Rather than ask what the trust is doing"

"Consider what you can do for the trust"

Now why on earth would someone want to do anything for the trust if they don't know what the trust are doing?

  • Would you donate to a charity without knowing or asking what it is for? NOPE
  • Would you donate to a charity of whom people imply that it's wrong to ask what they are doing? NOPE

Pure snobbery at its finest, the trust is not Area 51, if someone wants to ask what the trust are doing, they are more than welcome to do so, the trust is not going to win people over and grow when there are Nincompoops implying that asking what they are doing is out of order.


The trust is not the Queens trust or royalty.


I remember when people used to ask what the club is doing with the councils £10 million, i would always tell them they are a disgrace for even asking and to just let the people quietly sneak the £10 million away.  Roll Eyes  Roll Eyes  Roll Eyes  Roll Eyes  Roll Eyes  Roll Eyes  Roll Eyes  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #25294 on: July 23, 2019, 13:33:57 pm »

Purleaseee don't bring that kind of attitude on to the forum, this is one of the reasons why many people won't sign up for the trust.


Lets bang it into perspective....

"Rather than ask what the trust is doing"

"Consider what you can do for the trust"

Now why on earth would someone want to do anything for the trust if they don't know what the trust are doing?

  • Would you donate to a charity without knowing or asking what it is for? NOPE
  • Would you donate to a charity of whom people imply that it's wrong to ask what they are doing? NOPE

Pure snobbery at its finest, the trust is not Area 51, if someone wants to ask what the trust are doing, they are more than welcome to do so, the trust is not going to win people over and grow when there are Nincompoops implying that asking what they are doing is out of order.


The trust is not the Queens trust or royalty.


I remember when people used to ask what the club is doing with the councils £10 million, i would always tell them they are a disgrace for even asking and to just let the people quietly sneak the £10 million away.  Roll Eyes  Roll Eyes  Roll Eyes  Roll Eyes  Roll Eyes  Roll Eyes  Roll Eyes  Roll Eyes

Who is Cynthia BB in yr signature?
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« Reply #25295 on: July 23, 2019, 15:42:01 pm »

Purleaseee don't bring that kind of attitude on to the forum, this is one of the reasons why many people won't sign up for the trust.


Lets bang it into perspective....

"Rather than ask what the trust is doing"

"Consider what you can do for the trust"

Now why on earth would someone want to do anything for the trust if they don't know what the trust are doing?

  • Would you donate to a charity without knowing or asking what it is for? NOPE
  • Would you donate to a charity of whom people imply that it's wrong to ask what they are doing? NOPE

Pure snobbery at its finest, the trust is not Area 51, if someone wants to ask what the trust are doing, they are more than welcome to do so, the trust is not going to win people over and grow when there are Nincompoops implying that asking what they are doing is out of order.


The trust is not the Queens trust or royalty.


I remember when people used to ask what the club is doing with the councils £10 million, i would always tell them they are a disgrace for even asking and to just let the people quietly sneak the £10 million away.  Roll Eyes  Roll Eyes  Roll Eyes  Roll Eyes  Roll Eyes  Roll Eyes  Roll Eyes  Roll Eyes
It's quite easy really
It's basically two organisations  going head to head, one  has its main raison d'etre in gaining vast riches from land that surrounds the football club which is conveniently used to facilitate this enterprise from our local council. 
The others are a trust that were set up to help our football clubs future growth and be there every time our club has been run into the ground.
You're perfectly entitled to back whoever you want.
Ask your question of the trust and they will answer it, asked it of Thomas like I did via a radio station and you'll know why I fully back the trust to be the organisation to finally get our club off the bones of its arse.
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The Rauldinho
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« Reply #25296 on: July 23, 2019, 16:12:10 pm »

It's quite easy really
It's basically two organisations  going head to head, one  has its main raison d'etre in gaining vast riches from land that surrounds the football club which is conveniently used to facilitate this enterprise from our local council. 
The others are a trust that were set up to help our football clubs future growth and be there every time our club has been run into the ground.
You're perfectly entitled to back whoever you want.
Ask your question of the trust and they will answer it, asked it of Thomas like I did via a radio station and you'll know why I fully back the trust to be the organisation to finally get our club off the bones of its arse.
Are you going to the Open Forum, Beds? Would be interested to see what the Trust says and how that aligns with what you think needs to be done.
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« Reply #25297 on: July 23, 2019, 17:34:36 pm »

I wasn't asking what the trust does,  I was saying there should be no issue with someone who does ask what they do, rather than telling him do something for the trust instead of asking.
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« Reply #25298 on: July 24, 2019, 18:37:09 pm »

Where else to be on a summer's evening:

https://www.facebook.com/129995820357802/posts/2622121541145205/
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« Reply #25299 on: July 24, 2019, 19:32:53 pm »


Is there aircon? .....  Grin
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