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Redevelopment Closer Than Ever?

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Author Topic: Redevelopment Closer Than Ever?  (Read 1037422 times)
Vintage Cobbler
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« Reply #25620 on: September 14, 2019, 08:37:54 am »

On the other hand because you’ve were brought up eating white bread it doesn’t mean you always have to eat the stuff. I was one of those who saw our season at the highest level and was also at Shrewsbury and then at Chesterfield on a grim day when we finished in a relegation place but were only saved from the Conference by Kidderminster’s ground not being up to EFL standard requirements. 

You and ST Ed seem to be white bread people.  I am not.  I want and expect better. However, I realise that to achieve that the ground and the club’s infrastructure and wider relationship with the people of Northampton has to be much better.  As we have seen, what the club has now whether it is its bricks and mortar, ownership and management is not good enough to either mount a serious promotion challenge or, if we get promoted, maintain a place in the league above for more than a season or two.  That is where we are.

My own take is that the conventional private ltd company ownership vehicle is broken for many clubs in the lower divisions, including NTFC. The sad demise of Bury illustrates the point.  Others will follow.  I know that many disagree with fans ownership and always hope the next owner will be a wealthy benefactor rather than an opportunist with land development profits the real agenda.  I very much doubt that these hopes will ever be realised and so things needs to fundamentally change.  Think of the German 50+1 ownership model and the long term sustainability and growth of the club before coming back and saying “ twas always thus” at NTFC.  It needn’t be.
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« Reply #25621 on: September 14, 2019, 11:54:06 am »

On the other hand because you’ve were brought up eating white bread it doesn’t mean you always have to eat the stuff. I was one of those who saw our season at the highest level and was also at Shrewsbury and then at Chesterfield on a grim day when we finished in a relegation place but were only saved from the Conference by Kidderminster’s ground not being up to EFL standard requirements. 

You and ST Ed seem to be white bread people.  I am not.  I want and expect better. However, I realise that to achieve that the ground and the club’s infrastructure and wider relationship with the people of Northampton has to be much better.  As we have seen, what the club has now whether it is its bricks and mortar, ownership and management is not good enough to either mount a serious promotion challenge or, if we get promoted, maintain a place in the league above for more than a season or two.  That is where we are.

My own take is that the conventional private ltd company ownership vehicle is broken for many clubs in the lower divisions, including NTFC. The sad demise of Bury illustrates the point.  Others will follow.  I know that many disagree with fans ownership and always hope the next owner will be a wealthy benefactor rather than an opportunist with land development profits the real agenda.  I very much doubt that these hopes will ever be realised and so things needs to fundamentally change.  Think of the German 50+1 ownership model and the long term sustainability and growth of the club before coming back and saying “ twas always thus” at NTFC.  It needn’t be.
The truth is VC that it goes beyond infrastructure and type of ownership. The fundamental financial structure outside of the championship is flawed. I am afraid much of what goes on is unsustainable, including at Sixfields. Our current owners are 5 million in apparently and have achieved nothing. Everything you need to know is right there. Bolton with the Reebok nearly went to the wall, whilst people will put up the all too predictable excuses for this, the evidence is damning. For every success story there is a failure and anybody with real money will proceed with caution. Even then they could do a Max Griggs and walk with all too predictable results. I am afraid the dispassionate answer is semi professional for division 1 & 2. As a supporter there is nothing I would hate more, the financial reality tells another story. Bury is the start and more will follow, as you say. Dreams are fine but it comes with a risk attached. If every club was semi professional and spending was capped at say 70% of turnover it would be a level playing field and clubs would be no longer at risk from some of the incompetence that goes on. I am fully aware that this is going to go down like a bag of sick and I hate the idea myself, I am just calling it as I see it. Perhaps when a few more clubs with a proud history implode the powers that be will act? Let’s just hope we are still around when and if it happens.
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« Reply #25622 on: September 14, 2019, 12:55:54 pm »

On the other hand because you’ve were brought up eating white bread it doesn’t mean you always have to eat the stuff. I was one of those who saw our season at the highest level and was also at Shrewsbury and then at Chesterfield on a grim day when we finished in a relegation place but were only saved from the Conference by Kidderminster’s ground not being up to EFL standard requirements. 

You and ST Ed seem to be white bread people.  I am not.  I want and expect better. However, I realise that to achieve that the ground and the club’s infrastructure and wider relationship with the people of Northampton has to be much better.  As we have seen, what the club has now whether it is its bricks and mortar, ownership and management is not good enough to either mount a serious promotion challenge or, if we get promoted, maintain a place in the league above for more than a season or two.  That is where we are.

My own take is that the conventional private ltd company ownership vehicle is broken for many clubs in the lower divisions, including NTFC. The sad demise of Bury illustrates the point.  Others will follow.  I know that many disagree with fans ownership and always hope the next owner will be a wealthy benefactor rather than an opportunist with land development profits the real agenda.  I very much doubt that these hopes will ever be realised and so things needs to fundamentally change.  Think of the German 50+1 ownership model and the long term sustainability and growth of the club before coming back and saying “ twas always thus” at NTFC.  It needn’t be.

I usually eat whatever bread is provided. If I don’t like it, I either stump up my own money, or shop elsewhere.. I wouldn’t spend my life moaning about it from afar, supplying nothing more than noise.
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« Reply #25623 on: September 14, 2019, 17:12:54 pm »

On the other hand because you’ve were brought up eating white bread it doesn’t mean you always have to eat the stuff. I was one of those who saw our season at the highest level and was also at Shrewsbury and then at Chesterfield on a grim day when we finished in a relegation place but were only saved from the Conference by Kidderminster’s ground not being up to EFL standard requirements. 

You and ST Ed seem to be white bread people.  I am not.  I want and expect better. However, I realise that to achieve that the ground and the club’s infrastructure and wider relationship with the people of Northampton has to be much better.  As we have seen, what the club has now whether it is its bricks and mortar, ownership and management is not good enough to either mount a serious promotion challenge or, if we get promoted, maintain a place in the league above for more than a season or two.  That is where we are.

My own take is that the conventional private ltd company ownership vehicle is broken for many clubs in the lower divisions, including NTFC. The sad demise of Bury illustrates the point.  Others will follow.  I know that many disagree with fans ownership and always hope the next owner will be a wealthy benefactor rather than an opportunist with land development profits the real agenda.  I very much doubt that these hopes will ever be realised and so things needs to fundamentally change.  Think of the German 50+1 ownership model and the long term sustainability and growth of the club before coming back and saying “ twas always thus” at NTFC.  It needn’t be.


White bread is the best....FACT!  Grin  Tongue
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« Reply #25624 on: September 14, 2019, 17:31:31 pm »

On the other hand because you’ve were brought up eating white bread it doesn’t mean you always have to eat the stuff. I was one of those who saw our season at the highest level and was also at Shrewsbury and then at Chesterfield on a grim day when we finished in a relegation place but were only saved from the Conference by Kidderminster’s ground not being up to EFL standard requirements. 

You and ST Ed seem to be white bread people.  I am not.  I want and expect better. However, I realise that to achieve that the ground and the club’s infrastructure and wider relationship with the people of Northampton has to be much better.  As we have seen, what the club has now whether it is its bricks and mortar, ownership and management is not good enough to either mount a serious promotion challenge or, if we get promoted, maintain a place in the league above for more than a season or two.  That is where we are.

My own take is that the conventional private ltd company ownership vehicle is broken for many clubs in the lower divisions, including NTFC. The sad demise of Bury illustrates the point.  Others will follow.  I know that many disagree with fans ownership and always hope the next owner will be a wealthy benefactor rather than an opportunist with land development profits the real agenda.  I very much doubt that these hopes will ever be realised and so things needs to fundamentally change.  Think of the German 50+1 ownership model and the long term sustainability and growth of the club before coming back and saying “ twas always thus” at NTFC.  It needn’t be.

I'd love for us to be better, but the truth is unless someone is willing to **** circa £30m on us for ground Redevelopment and associated business development plus invest in the squad to even get us to the Championship let alone stay there then we're destined for the pattern of years in the bottom division with two or three years in the third tier.

Even when we were the "Chelsea of Division 3" under Cardoza and Bilko had an open checkbook, we were still ****.

That's life, that's who we are and that's how it is.

 
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« Reply #25625 on: September 14, 2019, 18:12:48 pm »

Just embrace and love the Cobbs for what it is ….. the good, the bad and the ugly.
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« Reply #25626 on: September 14, 2019, 19:33:28 pm »

On the other hand because you’ve were brought up eating white bread it doesn’t mean you always have to eat the stuff. I was one of those who saw our season at the highest level and was also at Shrewsbury and then at Chesterfield on a grim day when we finished in a relegation place but were only saved from the Conference by Kidderminster’s ground not being up to EFL standard requirements. 

You and ST Ed seem to be white bread people.  I am not.  I want and expect better. However, I realise that to achieve that the ground and the club’s infrastructure and wider relationship with the people of Northampton has to be much better.  As we have seen, what the club has now whether it is its bricks and mortar, ownership and management is not good enough to either mount a serious promotion challenge or, if we get promoted, maintain a place in the league above for more than a season or two.  That is where we are.

My own take is that the conventional private ltd company ownership vehicle is broken for many clubs in the lower divisions, including NTFC. The sad demise of Bury illustrates the point.  Others will follow.  I know that many disagree with fans ownership and always hope the next owner will be a wealthy benefactor rather than an opportunist with land development profits the real agenda.  I very much doubt that these hopes will ever be realised and so things needs to fundamentally change.  Think of the German 50+1 ownership model and the long term sustainability and growth of the club before coming back and saying “ twas always thus” at NTFC.  It needn’t be.

It is not what you were brought up on, it is what you decided to purchase when you started following the Cobblers. As I said do you buy a mini and expect it to develope into a rolls royce. I started supporting when we were on the fourth tier of the league and expected nothing more than to see division 4 football with the occasional trip to the dizzy heights of division 3.
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« Reply #25627 on: September 14, 2019, 19:58:51 pm »

I started supporting when we were on the fourth tier of the league and expected nothing more than to see division 4 football with the occasional trip to the dizzy heights of division 3.
Me also. And I have not been disappointed.
And that is the way that it will remain. Despite the best efforts of hill wailers to convince me otherwise.
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« Reply #25628 on: September 14, 2019, 21:52:51 pm »

Me also. And I have not been disappointed.
And that is the way that it will remain. Despite the best efforts of hill wailers to convince me otherwise.

Too bloody right!
We can still dream though,doh!
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« Reply #25629 on: September 14, 2019, 22:13:33 pm »

Too bloody right!
We can still dream though,doh!
Yes we can dream, and we all do, aspiring towards those heights, that deep down we know will not be achieved. We all know that we will get the odd promotion, and slide back down again two years later. This is how it is as a Cobblers fan. This is what you sign up for. A year of sucess and a lot more years of mediocrity. Until somebody turns up with a truck full of cash, its going to remain that way.
And a self employed plasterer from Luton, need not bother replying to this.
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« Reply #25630 on: September 14, 2019, 23:57:30 pm »

On the other hand because you’ve were brought up eating white bread it doesn’t mean you always have to eat the stuff. 

You and ST Ed seem to be white bread people.  I am not.......


Your devotion to Beds (& yrs) theme seems to be disturbing yr balance of mind...using white bread as an analogy seems a bit nutty?
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« Reply #25631 on: September 14, 2019, 23:59:47 pm »

Beds, youre really are getting to be tedious now.

 Cheesy
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« Reply #25632 on: September 15, 2019, 08:32:51 am »

Your devotion to Beds (& yrs) theme seems to be disturbing yr balance of mind...using white bread as an analogy seems a bit nutty?
Oh the irony  Grin
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« Reply #25633 on: September 15, 2019, 09:36:54 am »

The truth is VC that it goes beyond infrastructure and type of ownership. The fundamental financial structure outside of the championship is flawed. I am afraid much of what goes on is unsustainable, including at Sixfields. Our current owners are 5 million in apparently and have achieved nothing. Everything you need to know is right there. Bolton with the Reebok nearly went to the wall, whilst people will put up the all too predictable excuses for this, the evidence is damning. For every success story there is a failure and anybody with real money will proceed with caution. Even then they could do a Max Griggs and walk with all too predictable results. I am afraid the dispassionate answer is semi professional for division 1 & 2. As a supporter there is nothing I would hate more, the financial reality tells another story. Bury is the start and more will follow, as you say. Dreams are fine but it comes with a risk attached. If every club was semi professional and spending was capped at say 70% of turnover it would be a level playing field and clubs would be no longer at risk from some of the incompetence that goes on. I am fully aware that this is going to go down like a bag of sick and I hate the idea myself, I am just calling it as I see it. Perhaps when a few more clubs with a proud history implode the powers that be will act? Let’s just hope we are still around when and if it happens.

Melbourne - I agree that the fundamental financial structure is flawed and whilst your suggestion of part time professionals makes good sense the trend is in the opposite direction.  I don’t think there is a side in the National League (Conference in old money) that has not got a squad of full time players and this has extended itself to small clubs in National Leagues North & South.  Having a squad of full time players impacts significantly not only the wage bills for the players but all the attendant managerial and support staff that need to go full time.  You might say that economic madness prevails in the game and I wouldn’t disagree.  At the top end of the game whilst Bury disappears Premier League clubs spend millions on squad players who spend a season or two warming the bench before disappearing to other leagues.

The EFL have commissioned an independent report on Bury to be followed by one on the EFL regulations financial fair play rules , fit and proper person test  etc.  But when the report appears and is digested it will be the owners of 71 EFL clubs who vote on any changes and self-interest is more likely than not going to prevail.  Supporters of the clubs will not have any direct say. 

I was not exactly advocating the untried and untested in putting forward the 50+1 model.  It has worked well in Germany where it has long been recognised that supporters are not customers in the conventional sense , that football clubs are an intrinsic part of the local community and that supporters should have a say in matters affecting them like ticket prices and the scheduling of matches.  But it runs deeper than that.  It is a cultural thing and part of the post WW2 settlement in which the consensus of the people is sought.

I know from your postings that you are a successful businessman and that you approach matters NTFC wearing your businessman’s hat.  That is fine. I also work very much in the private sector and I can see your direction of travel.  My point is that football clubs are different animals than the conventional private ltd liability company although that is what the structure of English football is based on.  I think it needs to and may have to change at least at Leagues 1 & 2 levels to something along the German lines.  I am making this comment about English football generally and not NTFC specifically.  There are different ownership models in existence already at Exeter, Newport and Wycombe and they appear to be working. North of the border Motherwell is supporter owned and Hearts have an interesting model involving the Foundation of Hearts supporters’ trust. 

We both agree that EFL football at NTFC’s level is unsustainable in the medium to long term under the present financial structure.  I extend this to the legal ownership structure (composition).  We agree that more clubs will follow Bury into oblivion before anything is done.  We have our own historic problems at NTFC.  You can see from the reaction to what I posted yesterday that some, even many, are content with the present situation and impliedly think our present owners are doing a good or reasonable job. I beg to differ. 

Like in politics, events will dictate what happens at NTFC.  Once our owners have their way with the Council on the land they will be gone as soon as they can find a buyer probably at a “give away” price since the killing will have been made on selling on the land with planning permission to another bigger developer approved by NBC. May I be wrong. I don't want to be a prophet of doom but I see problems ahead for the club on top of those that already exist.  The 50+1 model (essentially a joint venture) may be the best way forward when the time comes.

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« Reply #25634 on: September 15, 2019, 12:49:14 pm »

Sensible post VC, my comments regarding part time are obviously also a general observation rather than specifically directed at NTFC. I think an additional problem can sometimes be that when a money man comes in they can often make egocentric decisions which are proven to be reckless with hindsight. Therefore legislation provides a solution which the German model happens to be founded upon. I am normally against more legislation generally, but in this instance I believe it should form the backbone of any structure moving forward. I also think the wider football community should consider some drastic moves to protect the lower levels of the pyramid. Since the influx of foreign players over the last 20 years home grown talent has had to often ply there trade lower down the ladder initially. There are numerous examples of this where players have subsequently moved up to the prem. Dele Ali, Jamie Vardy etc etc. Allow the lower leagues to implode and the opportunities for home grown talent will be squeezed further? Therefore it is in everyone’s interest that the lower divisions are protected and allowed to flourish. In part this has to include an end to reckless spending and ego driven fantasy ventures. This will only work if the same rules apply to all lower league clubs without exception. The German model would certainly provide this to some extent? There would of course be some challenges to overcome, but it is blatantly obvious that the current system is broken and shouldn’t be allowed to continue unregulated, at least that’s what I think.
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« Reply #25635 on: September 15, 2019, 19:40:53 pm »

When the page views on this exceed the million, will the forum go all Y2K on us & go into meltdown?

Not long now...
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« Reply #25636 on: September 15, 2019, 21:34:00 pm »

1 million
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« Reply #25637 on: September 16, 2019, 10:56:04 am »

1 million

Next target, 2 million!

PS - East stand will still look the same as it does now! Sad
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« Reply #25638 on: September 17, 2019, 02:25:36 am »

Next target, 2 million!

PS - East stand will still look the same as it does now! Sad
was thinking about the 2 million views myself 😃 How long you think it will take and agree the east stand still won't be finished
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« Reply #25639 on: September 17, 2019, 08:52:41 am »

was thinking about the 2 million views myself 😃 How long you think it will take and agree the east stand still won't be finished
The strange thing being no one knows what a 'finished East stand looks like, so I can only assume it's a cheap basic fit out to allow a row of corporate boxes, Restaurant large bar and toilet block, none of which can take place until Thomas gets out, as hes made it abundantly clear he wont be doing anything after these long 4 years of land grabbing.
So even if the the East stand ever gets finished to a basic standard, our club still finds itself still unable to trade and be self sufficient in league 1 due to severe capacity restrictions that can costs over £300,000 per season!
So until we get in owners who are here for the club and wants a good future for it, this will keep getting regurgitated.
I dont believe Thomas and co will hang on indefinitely, he knows now his inability to do what he intended to do is causing our clubs future great  harm,
Even his 'biggest followers ' can now see he's just keeping it a L2 side in a very basic ground, just ticking over until they get the land they require.
Maybe promotion to L1 this year will force the issue to the fore? We can only hope.

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