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Redevelopment Closer Than Ever?

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singcobb
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« Reply #26020 on: December 05, 2019, 23:45:51 pm »

it costs £60k to purchase and fit 1400 plastic seats. I remember at the time hearing it cost £250,000 from the club, causing my in built bull5hitometer to go off the scale.
For 1 million you could fit a dozen boxes and several hundred grand more for a basic shell fit out.
Just for clarity it would cost for a modest construction,
£2 m to expand the ground by 3000 to allow it to compete in L1. All that totals 1 James Collins or 2 john Marquis or an 1/8th of Ivan Toney.
Hope that helps.



Here we go again. "Figures from my arse" by BedsCobb. ISBN 000000000005H1T
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« Reply #26021 on: December 06, 2019, 05:52:51 am »

it costs £60k to purchase and fit 1400 plastic seats. I remember at the time hearing it cost £250,000 from the club, causing my in built bull5hitometer to go off the scale.
For 1 million you could fit a dozen boxes and several hundred grand more for a basic shell fit out.
Just for clarity it would cost for a modest construction,
£2 m to expand the ground by 3000 to allow it to compete in L1. All that totals 1 James Collins or 2 john Marquis or an 1/8th of Ivan Toney.
Hope that helps.


Sorry where, a few years ago, did you post we should keep Collins, Marquis and Toney because they would be worth millions?............................or are you talking in the oh so wise hindsight!!!

Although I do ask, after being told by KT that he is making 'good progress with the Council', when is he confirming the timeline for his previously stated expansion?
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BedsCobb
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« Reply #26022 on: December 06, 2019, 14:48:23 pm »

Sorry where, a few years ago, did you post we should keep Collins, Marquis and Toney because they would be worth millions?............................or are you talking in the oh so wise hindsight!!!

Although I do ask, after being told by KT that he is making 'good progress with the Council', when is he confirming the timeline for his previously stated expansion?
There is not 1 fan of ntfc who didn't want Marquis or Collins to sign and they most certainly didn't want to see local talent flogged on the cheap.
It isnt hindsight just common sense, which is a commodity in short supply these past 20 years.
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« Reply #26023 on: December 06, 2019, 15:58:42 pm »

There is not 1 fan of ntfc who didn't want Marquis or Collins to sign and they most certainly didn't want to see local talent flogged on the cheap.
It isnt hindsight just common sense, which is a commodity in short supply these past 20 years.
Wrong again Beds, 'not 1 fan'? Most of our group said AND POSTED that they were good but we were not over eager to sign them. They have done better since but we have no problem saying IN HINDSIGHT we maybe were wrong.

OPINIONS not facts, something you struggle with!!!
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« Reply #26024 on: December 06, 2019, 16:23:05 pm »

Let’s focus on what matters.  There has been no tangible evidence of any progress with the club’s infrastructure, notably the East Stand, for over 4 years of the current ownership. Every now and again KT trots out stuff about “progress” with NBC.  What, when, how we may ask but all we get is obfuscation from our owners.

The same old questions remain unanswered including;

-   what are the plans for the East Stand?  Remember NBC has said that KT has never even discussed the East Stand plans with it but only talks about his aspirations for the wider development on the land beyond the back of the East Stand.

⁃   why doesn’t KT publish the East Stand plans?  Is it because the plans are inadequate and could not be used by a contractor to commence works? Is non-disclosure because KT has no intention of finishing the stand but is making the occasional noises to keep supporters quiet whilst looking to sell CDNL when the right offer comes?

-   what was the deal struck with Buckingham Group for the East Stand and any wider works that pathed the way for DB/KT to get control of CDNL?

-   when is a planning application going to be submitted for the wider development?  Surely, with all this waffle about “progress” that happy stage has been reached.

-   To what extent (if any) is the football club going to share in the financial benefits of the wider development.  In other words, on what financial and legal terms did KT/DB transfer their shares in CDNL to NTFC? 

Note: nothing on CDNL’s records at Companies House shows any change of control has taken place.

-   Will all the development profits go to KT/DB’s corporate vehicles as the 84% shareholders in NTFC, first in repaying the “debt” of £5million + and then anything on top going to Ventures and the Belle de Jour? 

-   Where did any funds invested by 5USport find a home? Nothing is recorded on the balance sheet of Ventures or NTFC but for 9 months the Chinese had a controlling interest in Ventures and, therefore, of the football club and a majority of directors on the immediate holding company’s board (Ventures).  Is it feasible that those hard-nosed experienced  businessmen DB/KT, who have demonstrated their guile in running rings around NBC over the East Stand and by acquiring CDNL from under the Council’s nose, were duped by people with whom they had no previous dealings and gave up majority control of Ventures/NTFC without any money changing hands?  Then, having been conned, KT/DB decided to dig deep into their own pockets in a failed attempt to stay in L1?  Does this philanthropy fit with the fact that the money man DB has shown his commitment to NTFC by attending about 4 matches at Sixfields in 4 years and our leader KT turns up at the club once or twice a month? Such is their love of NTFC.

-   Is it all about football and nothing about development profits? 

-   Is the DB/KT master plan to get the “green light” from NBC, secure outline planning consent from NBC or be given “sellable” assurances and then sell CDNL to another developer leaving the club with an unfinished stand and the “debt” owing to our owners’ companies, including the opaque offshore Belle De Jour Ltd, cleared and our owners exiting NTFC?

KT could easily answer all of these questions but he continues with his smoke and mirrors act and he is being allowed by our supporters to get away with it.  KT never says anything of substance, never faces the supporters but we allow him to get away with it and just argue amongst ourselves. We are cannon fodder and mugs.
 

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« Reply #26025 on: December 06, 2019, 17:21:05 pm »

Excellent post Vintage, so many questions and never any answers!

I doubt that 98% of the fanbase are bothered though.....as long as results on the pitch are half decent then that gives then their weekly/fortnightly fix of football and they don't worry about anything else!

The club keeps paying the wages (didn't happen at the end of the Cardoza tenure) and the club keeps paying the taxman (didn't happen at the end of the Cardoza tenure) so there is no "news".....no awareness of what is or isn't going on in the background.

As another League club teeters on the brink of extinction its worth pointing out here that Macclesfields liabilities according to their latest filed accounts amount to a shade under £800,000 whereas our liabilities are more than 3 times that amount (£2.411 million)

Still, as long as we don't stop paying the bills we're ok, or as long as DB doesn't run out of money we're fine, or as long as he doesn't just decide to pull the plug there's nothing to worry about.

If any one of those three things happen though.........
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« Reply #26026 on: December 06, 2019, 18:03:53 pm »

Got to agree with GPC. An excellent inquiring common sense post from Vintage.
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« Reply #26027 on: December 06, 2019, 18:11:21 pm »

Let’s focus on what matters.  There has been no tangible evidence of any progress with the club’s infrastructure, notably the East Stand, for over 4 years of the current ownership. Every now and again KT trots out stuff about “progress” with NBC.  What, when, how we may ask but all we get is obfuscation from our owners.

The same old questions remain unanswered including;

-   what are the plans for the East Stand?  Remember NBC has said that KT has never even discussed the East Stand plans with it but only talks about his aspirations for the wider development on the land beyond the back of the East Stand.

⁃   why doesn’t KT publish the East Stand plans?  Is it because the plans are inadequate and could not be used by a contractor to commence works? Is non-disclosure because KT has no intention of finishing the stand but is making the occasional noises to keep supporters quiet whilst looking to sell CDNL when the right offer comes?

-   what was the deal struck with Buckingham Group for the East Stand and any wider works that pathed the way for DB/KT to get control of CDNL?

-   when is a planning application going to be submitted for the wider development?  Surely, with all this waffle about “progress” that happy stage has been reached.

-   To what extent (if any) is the football club going to share in the financial benefits of the wider development.  In other words, on what financial and legal terms did KT/DB transfer their shares in CDNL to NTFC? 

Note: nothing on CDNL’s records at Companies House shows any change of control has taken place.

-   Will all the development profits go to KT/DB’s corporate vehicles as the 84% shareholders in NTFC, first in repaying the “debt” of £5million + and then anything on top going to Ventures and the Belle de Jour? 

-   Where did any funds invested by 5USport find a home? Nothing is recorded on the balance sheet of Ventures or NTFC but for 9 months the Chinese had a controlling interest in Ventures and, therefore, of the football club and a majority of directors on the immediate holding company’s board (Ventures).  Is it feasible that those hard-nosed experienced  businessmen DB/KT, who have demonstrated their guile in running rings around NBC over the East Stand and by acquiring CDNL from under the Council’s nose, were duped by people with whom they had no previous dealings and gave up majority control of Ventures/NTFC without any money changing hands?  Then, having been conned, KT/DB decided to dig deep into their own pockets in a failed attempt to stay in L1?  Does this philanthropy fit with the fact that the money man DB has shown his commitment to NTFC by attending about 4 matches at Sixfields in 4 years and our leader KT turns up at the club once or twice a month? Such is their love of NTFC.

-   Is it all about football and nothing about development profits? 

-   Is the DB/KT master plan to get the “green light” from NBC, secure outline planning consent from NBC or be given “sellable” assurances and then sell CDNL to another developer leaving the club with an unfinished stand and the “debt” owing to our owners’ companies, including the opaque offshore Belle De Jour Ltd, cleared and our owners exiting NTFC?

KT could easily answer all of these questions but he continues with his smoke and mirrors act and he is being allowed by our supporters to get away with it.  KT never says anything of substance, never faces the supporters but we allow him to get away with it and just argue amongst ourselves. We are cannon fodder and mugs.
 



This should be forwarded to KT's email address.
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« Reply #26028 on: December 06, 2019, 18:15:29 pm »


As another League club teeters on the brink of extinction its worth pointing out here that Macclesfields liabilities according to their latest filed accounts amount to a shade under £800,000 whereas our liabilities are more than 3 times that amount (£2.411 million)
Macclesfield are deep in the s***e.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/50690408






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« Reply #26029 on: December 06, 2019, 18:28:24 pm »

What on earth has  that got to do with our matters?  Stay on topic.
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« Reply #26030 on: December 06, 2019, 18:51:58 pm »

What on earth has  that got to do with our matters?  Stay on topic.
In case you dont recall, we came very close to going under. High Court and all that. I dont think that discussing other clubs plight, is straying too far "off topic". That could have been us.
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« Reply #26031 on: December 06, 2019, 19:04:24 pm »

Pathetic. Do we kiss KT''s backside? See above and get real.
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« Reply #26032 on: December 06, 2019, 19:47:36 pm »

Pathetic. Do we kiss KT''s backside? See above and get real.

What? Have I missed something?
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« Reply #26033 on: December 06, 2019, 19:54:11 pm »

No, just get back to the main issue which I have set out at some length above and don't be distracted bu events at Macclesfield which is a side show to us at NTFC.
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« Reply #26034 on: December 06, 2019, 20:56:33 pm »

Thomas has proved what his reason for being at our club is, and that's not the long term future of our club that allows it to progress.... So that makes him a spent force as a bonafide chairman..
The only questions needing asking is, what is his exit strategy,  how far does he think he can hold our club to ransom with the council, now they see him for what he is.. Cardoza was over 12 years!
We all , or should now know Thomas will not lay one brick in the East,  he has a £5m plus convenient grip on us.. so with so many unanswered questions and failures to produce what he 'suggested' he would do, has now made his tenure impossible ..
Only the very innocent and easily convinced will still listen to a word uttered by him.
GHTFO of our club.
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« Reply #26035 on: December 06, 2019, 22:14:38 pm »

Don’t really comment on here much these days, mainly because not much new happens and no one ever changes position. To reiterate, it’s all quite simple really. The development of the East Stand is not happening because at this point in time it’s far too great a risk financially to do so. Of course this view is subjective and there are circumstances where if certain unlikely events happened it might work. However, my view is you would have to be off your nut to entertain the idea from a financial perspective. In my opinion that is the reason the development is not happening, the current incumbents simply cannot make any reasonable justification for it. The issue is most of the support base believe they were led to believe otherwise, so the club was acquired under false pretences. No one at the club has come outright and said this, so the endless procrastination goes on. I’ll say it again, it is almost certain that the development of the ground isn’t going to happen and won’t until the financial hurdles are addressed. My guess is that probably means promotion to the Championship. How that makes you feel about KT is entirely another question? However, don’t assume the next individual on the throne will solve this conundrum, because the problem remains the same. To develop the ground someone or some entity needs to gift the money, because it isn’t an investment opportunity that offers any sort of reasonable level of risk attached. All the other facts and opinions put up on here are just internet chatter, this is the only real fear that is driving this continuing stalemate. IMO of course.
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« Reply #26036 on: December 06, 2019, 22:31:22 pm »

By the way, to also repeat if the current lot have chucked 5 mil into the pot it’s not worth the paper it’s written on. The only way they will get that back is if someone buys the club for that amount or they sell an asset like the land or player. They have promised that any sale of the land would benefit the club. Could you argue that clearing their loan to the club is a benefit? Think about it, I imagine most people took that as some sort of assurance the club would get the money to develop the ground and lord it up in the championship. If that was the assumption you must be on drugs?
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« Reply #26037 on: December 06, 2019, 23:49:52 pm »

Don’t really comment on here much these days, mainly because not much new happens and no one ever changes position. To reiterate, it’s all quite simple really. The development of the East Stand is not happening because at this point in time it’s far too great a risk financially to do so. Of course this view is subjective and there are circumstances where if certain unlikely events happened it might work. However, my view is you would have to be off your nut to entertain the idea from a financial perspective. In my opinion that is the reason the development is not happening, the current incumbents simply cannot make any reasonable justification for it. The issue is most of the support base believe they were led to believe otherwise, so the club was acquired under false pretences. No one at the club has come outright and said this, so the endless procrastination goes on. I’ll say it again, it is almost certain that the development of the ground isn’t going to happen and won’t until the financial hurdles are addressed. My guess is that probably means promotion to the Championship. How that makes you feel about KT is entirely another question? However, don’t assume the next individual on the throne will solve this conundrum, because the problem remains the same. To develop the ground someone or some entity needs to gift the money, because it isn’t an investment opportunity that offers any sort of reasonable level of risk attached. All the other facts and opinions put up on here are just internet chatter, this is the only real fear that is driving this continuing stalemate. IMO of course.

Hang on a minute.......we were all told that the club needed to develop the facilities, provide executive boxes, meeting rooms, conference suites and suchlike to turn the football club into a 24/7 business, and from the proceeds of that, the increased corporate revenue, it would be that which could be used to propel us up the leagues.

You are saying that we don't need that or there is no justification for such facilities until we reach the Championship??

I agree that development of the ground purely to increase capacity is not required at this stage, nor would it be cost effective, but this was never about stadium capacity.

For what its worth I don't believe that boxes, suites and rooms would provide that much money anyway, and would take a good few years just to pay for themselves in any case.

The fact is though we are not getting what we were told we were getting. And nothing has happened for a good few years now.

As for the £5m paper debt.....as someone pointed out, unless Bower and Thomas are willing to waive that then that is the selling price for the club.....£5m for a fourth division football club with no assets and scant facilities playing in a leased and half developed stadium.......not very attractive is it? So to dismiss the figure as inconsequential is barmy!

If there was no debt and someone could come in with a pound and snap us up then I think that would be a more reasonable price based on what they'd be getting for their money!
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« Reply #26038 on: December 07, 2019, 01:14:44 am »

Nigel are you having a meltdown ? You seem to try to pick an argument with certain posters whatever they post. You know very well that KT said he had "£4M Ringfenced" to complete the East and that was one of the reasons he was able to buy the club for the figure he did.
    You also know that there were others who wanted it, I think KT himself was quoted that there would have been a queue of people willing to buy NTFC with the deal he got.
     Also, whilst I'm posting, could you provide evidence of your statement "the Trust  genuinely believe by repeating the same thing, that you are part of the solution"    Smiley

   

Let's hear it then mate.. Spill the beans. Who else was in the frame???  The much fabled LOCAL CONSORTUIM”.  Grin Grin

Admittedly I was wrong when I sad the Trust repeat the same thing over and over again whilst doing nothing... They have their proxy chairman.. Good old Vintage doing it for them instead these days.  Grin

We all know the problem. We’ve all heard the same questions spewed out a million times. But nobody comes up with a solution. In that respect we are all equally stumped.

Sometimes the truth is a very bitter pill to swallow. But you know as well as me Roger. Trusts are fine in war, but pointless in peace. Whether you like it or not. The Trust will not get so much as a fleeting glance until the buckets are out. Then they will be summarily dismissed as soon as the next promising Saville Row suit offers the moon on a stick... I can only offer up the world we live in every day. Not some Phoenix rising out of the back rooms of a limping working men’s club. But the real world of shifting money and truths. Where years of loyalty count for nothing next to a pipe dream promise or a decent run of wins......







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« Reply #26039 on: December 07, 2019, 06:37:30 am »

Hang on a minute.......we were all told that the club needed to develop the facilities, provide executive boxes, meeting rooms, conference suites and suchlike to turn the football club into a 24/7 business, and from the proceeds of that, the increased corporate revenue, it would be that which could be used to propel us up the leagues.

You are saying that we don't need that or there is no justification for such facilities until we reach the Championship??

I agree that development of the ground purely to increase capacity is not required at this stage, nor would it be cost effective, but this was never about stadium capacity.

For what its worth I don't believe that boxes, suites and rooms would provide that much money anyway, and would take a good few years just to pay for themselves in any case.

The fact is though we are not getting what we were told we were getting. And nothing has happened for a good few years now.

As for the £5m paper debt.....as someone pointed out, unless Bower and Thomas are willing to waive that then that is the selling price for the club.....£5m for a fourth division football club with no assets and scant facilities playing in a leased and half developed stadium.......not very attractive is it? So to dismiss the figure as inconsequential is barmy!

If there was no debt and someone could come in with a pound and snap us up then I think that would be a more reasonable price based on what they'd be getting for their money!
I’m not saying anything really GPC, just my opinion on the financial viability of redevelopment. KTs actions since taking over are an entirely different matter. And before anyone gets their knickers in a twist I might well be wrong? As for the paper debt being irrelevant, speaking as someone in the position it is. Anytime I have brought a business I have paid what I think it’s worth, I couldn’t give a stuff what the owners may or may not have chucked in, and neither will anyone else.
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