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Redevelopment Closer Than Ever?

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Author Topic: Redevelopment Closer Than Ever?  (Read 1060705 times)
BedsCobb
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« Reply #26160 on: December 11, 2019, 11:47:03 am »

So that's where we are at then?

My view,  if I were the top man / decision maker;

Until we are consistently at 90% of capacity on attendance, development wouldn't be on the agenda.

I would have the plans drawn up, along with approximate costs and timescales, but I would not make those public. That's my two-penneth.
So games against the top 7 L1 teams that would sell another 15000 tickets over the season is in your eyes worth sacrificing and just be happy with small attendances against Morecambe forest green and Crawley as a L2 side?
Do you think those who run the show at Posh, Oxford,  MK Brentford, Watford Luton would agree with your running of a league club with a 300,000 catchment?
No they wouldn't!
If you dont build up the infrastructure, the club stands still or in our case goes backwards.
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EB Claret
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« Reply #26161 on: December 11, 2019, 12:17:41 pm »

So games against the top 7 L1 teams that would sell another 15000 tickets over the season is in your eyes worth sacrificing and just be happy with small attendances against Morecambe forest green and Crawley as a L2 side?
Do you think those who run the show at Posh, Oxford,  MK Brentford, Watford Luton would agree with your running of a league club with a 300,000 catchment?
No they wouldn't!
If you dont build up the infrastructure, the club stands still or in our case goes backwards.

It's the chicken and the egg argument isn't it? Do you develop the team to establish yourselves in league 1 or develop the stadium first to hopefully increase income to build a team to reach league 1? Both methods can work. KT & Co. undeniably invested in the playing side to try to establish us in League 1 under RP, JE and JFH. Sadly it didn't work and we were relegated. Having spent out once the club owners are now, understandably, reluctant to do so again, even trying the other method. So at the moment we are where we are, hoping Keith Curle can manage a low budget promotion, we are the Cobblers this is the norm.

League 1 here we come!
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CobblerForever
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« Reply #26162 on: December 11, 2019, 12:47:56 pm »

If Beds is claiming we lose 15,000 ticket sales per annum he is really saying we are losing something in the order of £300,000 per annum (assuming a gross ticket price of £24 with no concessions (£20 net of VAT). There will also be additional costs and revenues arising from this but let's say these additional items even themselves out.

The cost of redeveloping the East Stand = £4 million.

Rate of return 7.5% pa

Big Problem - we need a better paid side to get us into L1 (normally) and if we don't raise wages (management and players) we lose the very reason for our original promotion.

The additional costs (higher pay) would vastly exceed the £300k additional revenue.

Conclusion = Investment in new stand almost certainly a failure in financial terms.


PS The 300,000 catchment area point is flawed in so much as we have in Northampton a uniquely well regarded Rugby Union side that is very well supported by a significant number of the potential supporters in this 300,000 figure.
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« Reply #26163 on: December 11, 2019, 15:20:41 pm »

So games against the top 7 L1 teams that would sell another 15000 tickets over the season is in your eyes worth sacrificing and just be happy with small attendances against Morecambe forest green and Crawley as a L2 side?
Do you think those who run the show at Posh, Oxford,  MK Brentford, Watford Luton would agree with your running of a league club with a 300,000 catchment?
No they wouldn't!
If you dont build up the infrastructure, the club stands still or in our case goes backwards.
If you're talking owners building up the infrastructure, stands to suit the catchment area (or otherwise)...can we omit Oxford from your list of examples?  Wink
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« Reply #26164 on: December 11, 2019, 15:21:43 pm »

So games against the top 7 L1 teams that would sell another 15000 tickets over the season is in your eyes worth sacrificing and just be happy with small attendances against Morecambe forest green and Crawley as a L2 side?
Do you think those who run the show at Posh, Oxford,  MK Brentford, Watford Luton would agree with your running of a league club with a 300,000 catchment?
No they wouldn't!
If you dont build up the infrastructure, the club stands still or in our case goes backwards.

Personally, I would look to add a tier on the south stand only, and only after two seasons have been successfully negotiated in L1.
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« Reply #26165 on: December 11, 2019, 16:19:36 pm »

Hang on lads, such massive clubs as Stevenage and Barnet have managed to build reasonably impressive new stands, so it's within our capability surely ?
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singcobb
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« Reply #26166 on: December 11, 2019, 17:02:24 pm »

Personally, I would look to add a tier on the south stand only, and only after two seasons have been successfully negotiated in L1.

Not a bad idea.
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singcobb
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« Reply #26167 on: December 11, 2019, 17:09:35 pm »

Hang on lads, such massive clubs as Stevenage and Barnet have managed to build reasonably impressive new stands, so it's within our capability surely ?

Barnet. Mmmmm... Capacity 6,500 and will be very lucky if they average 1,200 over the season.
Stevenage. Capacity 6,722 and managing an average of 2,476.
So Bed's theory of if you build it they will come doesn't seem to play out.
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Terryfenwickatemyhamster
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« Reply #26168 on: December 11, 2019, 17:45:41 pm »

Hang on lads, such massive clubs as Stevenage and Barnet have managed to build reasonably impressive new stands, so it's within our capability surely ?

Your sarcasm ignores one very important point.

Barnet  and Stevenage both have what we would like. An exceptionally rich chairman, who has to spend a lot of money on something or lose the money elsewhere. Hence the whole community angle of it all..

I could be very wrong. But Barnet has a very Rushden & Diamonds feel about it all.
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« Reply #26169 on: December 11, 2019, 18:47:08 pm »

Your sarcasm ignores one very important point.

Barnet  and Stevenage both have what we would like. An exceptionally rich chairman, who has to spend a lot of money on something or lose the money elsewhere. Hence the whole community angle of it all..

I could be very wrong. But Barnet has a very Rushden & Diamonds feel about it all.


True that Stevenage has a wealth owner (so does NTFC) but the new stands have been crowdfunded. 
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BedsCobb
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« Reply #26170 on: December 11, 2019, 20:08:55 pm »

I know Beds keeps going on about adding capacity and the amount of money we could be losing out on....what he seems to be forgetting is that the money needed to expand capacity and install boxes etc still needs to be spent.
If we are £5.5m ‘in debt’ already, he seems to be advocating spending another £3m now on top of that in the hope that it will repay itself over time.
How long would it take to repay itself? Years and years....I can see why KT is doing nothing at the moment either, because it’s not financially worthwhile in the short term.....

Not sticking up for him, the stand and boxes should have been done and finished by now, as all we have at the moment is £5.5m of directors loans and a half empty shell of a stand to show for it.

The ‘promises’ that were made at the beginning were not kept, however now that particular ship has sailed. So we are stuck in the position where nothing is happening. Hopefully we are breaking even, the loan account is not growing any further, and we are having a modicum of success on the pitch.
Northampton town is 125 years old and it will be around in another 125 years, so shall we wait until 2150 to have a challenge on league 1? When do we decide the Cobblers deserve a chance to step out of the Posh's shaddow?
If being run as a club devoid of ambition, how can we expect to build up and maintain the future support base?

Another thought,  we all admire the work of Chairman of Accrington Stanley and how he works a tiny club to extract every penny that is on offer, how do you think he'd mix things up if he were the Chairman of Northampton with 5 times more of everything at his disposal?
My guess would be Championship football with regular 12000 gates.


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« Reply #26171 on: December 11, 2019, 20:58:59 pm »

Difficult one to answer that as a supporter of 30 plus years. As a fan, definitely do the development if the funds were still there to do so.

From a business point of view, the latter.
Of course yes.
I agree it makes no immediate direct financial sense for the owners to finish the development, I meant doing so might then enable a better response from whoever they are in talks with over the development of the wider area. Such is the apparent stalemate at the moment, the only other ways I can see the chairman and his buddy getting their monies back are by going on one hell of a cup run or getting lucky in the transfer market and selling a player to a much higher level club.
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« Reply #26172 on: December 11, 2019, 21:56:30 pm »

True that Stevenage has a wealth owner (so does NTFC) but the new stands have been crowdfunded. 
Come on Nigel you're not keeping up again  Wink

 PS No need to be so grumpy, I know Chelsea got a bit of a stuffing at the weekend , but they won last night.
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« Reply #26173 on: December 11, 2019, 22:17:40 pm »

True that Stevenage has a wealth owner (so does NTFC) but the new stands have been crowdfunded. 
 

There you go. A perfect chance for the Trust to do something constructive with the money they sit on... Get in touch with KT and get a nice fresh website up and running. Let’s get crowd funding.

That would be a wonderful way to get more than the five or so supporters who bother with the Trust back on board.

I'd happily get involved in that. I’d love to sit down with KT and work with the Trust and the club to look at the crowd funding option.. I’m sure we’d get a few on here who’d help.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2019, 22:26:26 pm by Terryfenwickatemyhamster » Report Spam   Logged
singcobb
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« Reply #26174 on: December 11, 2019, 22:36:38 pm »

Northampton town is 125 years old and it will be around in another 125 years, so shall we wait until 2150 to have a challenge on league 1? When do we decide the Cobblers deserve a chance to step out of the Posh's shaddow?
If being run as a club devoid of ambition, how can we expect to build up and maintain the future support base?

Another thought,  we all admire the work of Chairman of Accrington Stanley and how he works a tiny club to extract every penny that is on offer, how do you think he'd mix things up if he were the Chairman of Northampton with 5 times more of everything at his disposal?
My guess would be Championship football with regular 12000 gates.




As usual a load of bollocks.

And you still have not answered my questions.
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Melbourne Cobbler
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« Reply #26175 on: December 12, 2019, 02:41:20 am »

It’s really not complicated honestly. The facts, and they are facts, are it is not financially viable to develop the ground at this point in time. That doesn’t mean it shouldn’t, couldn’t or won’t happen. All that means is that it won’t be paid for using the traditional methods of raising capital expenditure. And this idea that it can be achieved by self financing methods through the gate and match day sales etc is straight off the boat from Fantasy Island. As for Kelvin Thomas, what does everyone really think? My view is he has probably done all a non NTFC supporting investor could have done. Whilst you can argue that the 5 million invested may have been better spent, the bottom line is they have still spent 5 million. Considering the club was days from going out of business I personally feel this was a significant commitment to say the least. Yes they are doing it with an eye on getting a return on it but why wouldn’t they? Is the expectation really that they would do it for love? Come on, FFS it’s about time some had a reality check. We would all like a rich benefactor with deep pockets who will come along and indulge us all. Even that doesn’t necessarily guarantee everlasting success a la Rushden & Diamonds. With hindsight many could argue with some justification that this has not worked out as we had liked. However, when we were at the point of being wound up, if we were told that a businessman were to come onboard and plough 5 million into the playing side of the club over 3 or 4 years, how many hand on heart would have said “no thanks”. My best guess is that when the club was taken over the plan was to spend on the pitch to give us a fighting chance of The Championship. The potential revenue stream and gate increase at that point would have given some grounds to finish the East Stand. With Chris Wilder as manager this was a distinct possibility. Unfortunately The Sheffield United job came up, and as most reasonable people are aware spending money on the squad doesn’t always equate to relative success. So the struggle began and spending money on the ground had to be re-evaluated. That’s the thing, you can embark on a process with the best intentions but if you are too inflexible, when circumstances change you still have to be prepared to cut your cloth to suit. If you don’t you can very quickly find yourself in a very difficult financial position. That doesn’t make you insincere or a fraud, just sensible and adaptable. In my mind that’s probably about what’s happened. Are we really saying the owners should have redeveloped irrespective of the circumstances and got themselves in for 9 million or so? Come on, no one in there right mind would do that, not on a Division 2 club, they’d have to be out of their minds? And I’ll tell you another fact, there is not a single person on here that would, in the event they had 10 or even 20 million spare. So my view is that the owners have done all that could be reasonably expected of them given the way things played out. Although I concede they could have perhaps communicated matters better at times. I know this is going to make me as popular as rats vomit in the eyes of some, but it needed saying. I’m off to run for cover, see you all in a few days.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2019, 06:30:41 am by Melbourne Cobbler » Report Spam   Logged

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« Reply #26176 on: December 12, 2019, 05:54:56 am »

It’s really not complicated honestly. The facts, and they are facts, are it is not financially viable to develop the ground at this point in time. That doesn’t mean it shouldn’t, couldn’t or won’t happen. All that means is that it won’t be paid for using the traditional methods of raising capital expenditure. And this idea that it can be achieved by self financing methods through the gate and match day sales etc is straight off the boat from Fantasy Island. As for Kelvin Thomas, what does everyone really think? My view is he has probably done all a non NTFC supporting investor could have done. Whilst you can argue that the 5 million invested may have been better spent, the bottom line is they have still spent 5 million. Considering the club was days from going out of business I personally feel this was a significant commitment to say the least. Yes they are doing it with an eye on getting a return on it but why wouldn’t they? Is the expectation really that they would do it for love? Come on, FFS it’s about time some had a reality check. We would all like a rich benefactor with deep pockets who will come along and indulge us all. Even that doesn’t necessarily guarantee everlasting success a la Rushden & Diamonds. With hindsight many could argue with some justification that this has not worked out as we had liked. However, when we were at the point of being wound up, if we were told that a businessman were to come onboard and plough 5 million into the playing side of the club over 3 or 4 years, how many hand on heart would have said “no thanks”. My best guess is that when the club was taken over the plan was to spend on the pitch to give us a fighting chance of The Championship. The potential revenue stream and gate increase at that point would have given some grounds to finish the East Stand. With Chris Wilder as manager this was a distinct possibility. Unfortunately The Sheffield United job came up, and as most reasonable people are aware spending money on the squad doesn’t always equate to relative success. So the struggle began and spending money on the ground had to be re-evaluated. That’s the thing, you can embark on a process with the best intentions but if you are too inflexible, when circumstances change you have to be prepared to cut your cloth to suit. If you don’t you can very quickly find yourself in a very difficult financial position. That doesn’t make you insincere or a fraud, just sensible and adaptable. In my mind that’s probably about what’s happened. Are we really saying the owners should have redeveloped irrespective of the circumstances and got themselves in for 9 million or so? Come on, no one in there right mind would do that, not on a Division 2 club, they’d have to be out of their minds? And I’ll tell you another fact, there is not a single person on here that would, in the event they had 10 or even 20 million spare. So my view is that the owners have done all that could be reasonably expected of them given the way things played out. Although I concede they could have perhaps communicated matters better at times. I know this is going to make me as popular as rats vomit in the eyes of some, but it needed saying. I’m off to run for cover, see you all in a few days.
No need to 'run for cover' when your views are based on facts.

My comment to KT is to layout his future plans and the timescale. He might be suprised if he treats people as adults (except Beds) they will accept his honesty.
If he does not have plans to expand the infrastructure now, tell us!

IT IS THE NOT KNOWING THAT ANGERS AND FRUSTRATES FANS!!!!

If we have to wait two more years and 5 more 'good progress' meetings with NBC......tell us!

As people have said from the start, if he is using NTFC as a vehicle to make himself some money, no problem.................BUT ONLY IF THE CLUB HAS THE DEVELOPMENT WE REQUIRE! ie; some or all of a new East Stand with Excecutive Boxes, Conference Centre, new tier to the South Stand and???
« Last Edit: December 12, 2019, 09:03:54 am by Boring Bar Steward » Report Spam   Logged
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« Reply #26177 on: December 12, 2019, 06:45:49 am »

 

There you go. A perfect chance for the Trust to do something constructive with the money they sit on... Get in touch with KT and get a nice fresh website up and running. Let’s get crowd funding.

That would be a wonderful way to get more than the five or so supporters who bother with the Trust back on board.

I'd happily get involved in that. I’d love to sit down with KT and work with the Trust and the club to look at the crowd funding option.. I’m sure we’d get a few on here who’d help.

And you inaccurately accuse Barton of sarcasm when this is your specialist subject. 

Seriously, you are consistently coming across as a very sour person always wanting to have a go at a small number of posters, myself included. and when it comes to the Trust it is open season for you knowing it isn’t going to respond to your provocations.   

In case it escaped you, all I was doing was pointing out that one club, Stevenage which, as you correctly stated. has a wealthy owner, has crowdfunded its new stands.  In other words, I am just saying there are other funding possibilities to improving our stadium and infrastructure.  Others may be interested to know but, of course, not you. 

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BedsCobb
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« Reply #26178 on: December 12, 2019, 09:27:38 am »

As usual a load of bollocks.

And you still have not answered my questions.
I genuinely dont know what questions you ask?
Is it
Q.. Where is the money coming from to improve the infrastructure?
A, The very same place as every other league club got theres.
The brutal truth is we dont progress without any investment into the infrastructure and we just stand still and fall further behind all our rivals.
Sadly having no written plans after all these years it looks very like most of those in a position to actually do something are not here for the long term, so why would they care for our clubs future?
  
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« Reply #26179 on: December 12, 2019, 09:56:42 am »

I genuinely dont know what questions you ask?
Is it
Q.. Where is the money coming from to improve the infrastructure?
A, The very same place as every other league club got theres.
The brutal truth is we dont progress without any investment into the infrastructure and we just stand still and fall further behind all our rivals.
Sadly having no written plans after all these years it looks very like most of those in a position to actually do something are not here for the long term, so why would they care for our clubs future?
  


Oh dear. You are so pathetic. I have pointed out what the questions are and even hi-lighted them in red. Try and reclaim a little credibility and answer them(this is the fourth time I have asked you).

In answer to your question. The money will come only from a wealthy benefactor(s) who would hopefully have a business plan in place to be able to have the club at a minimum break even. No person/consortium who is expecting to get their money back would consider investing in the club at this moment in time.

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