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Redevelopment Closer Than Ever?

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Author Topic: Redevelopment Closer Than Ever?  (Read 1438885 times)
Terryfenwickatemyhamster
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« Reply #29380 on: October 07, 2021, 19:05:33 pm »

For me....no, its not a fair statement!! As previously posted the fact is that the new owners, led by KT did not want supporter representation on the Board, it was a deal breaker. Are you seriously suggesting that the Trust should and possibly could have forced the club under by sticking to a point of principle?

Andy Clarke was the last holder of the position of Director as part of the old setup under Cardoza, but he resigned around two months before the takeover was completed due to his part in the signing of certain drawdown documents between the Council and the then owners. An interim Director was identified but I don't believe was ever appointed as by that time the crisis had erupted and takeover talks were in progress.
Kelvin Thomas made it a condition of the takeover partly based on the fact that the Trust director had done what he had done so was wary of the Trust's role in the club pre-takeover.

The Trust Board at the time did not want to give up that place but based upon the deal that was on the table, the "promises" that were being made by the incoming owners they did what they believed was in the best interests of the club at the time and stepped aside (with another Trust brokered rescue deal also on the table) in favour of the deal presented by KT.

Now, fast forward six years and a hastily rushed through scheme to bring in a "fans director" was announced. The Trust were not explicitly given the chance to regain a place as the place that was on offer was for an "independent individual", so that chance was as open to the Trust as it was to any member of Joe Public. If a Trust Director had decided to stand and apply for said position there is no doubt at all that they would have had to resign from the Trust board, therefore the position on the Clubs Board was NEVER going to be filled by "The Trust"

Now, if KT had come along to the Trust and offered that place back in its original guise and the Trust had declined you could rightfully claim what you are claiming, but that isn't and wasn't the case.

Is that difficult to understand??

So in keeping with Rogers new rule. Is that a post from a Trust board member. Or as a standard contributor to this site…

BTW. Your version of events is a lot more simplistic than what actually happened. But I have lot of time for the people involved at that time. So I’ll leave that where it is.
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« Reply #29381 on: October 07, 2021, 19:06:03 pm »

For me....no, its not a fair statement!! As previously posted the fact is that the new owners, led by KT did not want supporter representation on the Board, it was a deal breaker. Are you seriously suggesting that the Trust should and possibly could have forced the club under by sticking to a point of principle?

Andy Clarke was the last holder of the position of Director as part of the old setup under Cardoza, but he resigned around two months before the takeover was completed due to his part in the signing of certain drawdown documents between the Council and the then owners. An interim Director was identified but I don't believe was ever appointed as by that time the crisis had erupted and takeover talks were in progress.
Kelvin Thomas made it a condition of the takeover partly based on the fact that the Trust director had done what he had done so was wary of the Trust's role in the club pre-takeover.

The Trust Board at the time did not want to give up that place but based upon the deal that was on the table, the "promises" that were being made by the incoming owners they did what they believed was in the best interests of the club at the time and stepped aside (with another Trust brokered rescue deal also on the table) in favour of the deal presented by KT.

Now, fast forward six years and a hastily rushed through scheme to bring in a "fans director" was announced. The Trust were not explicitly given the chance to regain a place as the place that was on offer was for an "independent individual", so that chance was as open to the Trust as it was to any member of Joe Public. If a Trust Director had decided to stand and apply for said position there is no doubt at all that they would have had to resign from the Trust board, therefore the position on the Clubs Board was NEVER going to be filled by "The Trust"

Now, if KT had come along to the Trust and offered that place back in its original guise and the Trust had declined you could rightfully claim what you are claiming, but that isn't and wasn't the case.

Is that difficult to understand??
Im suggesting that they were comprehensively outmanoeuvred by DC and comprehensively outmanoeuvred  by KT.
How hard is it to understand that no one will care what the trust THINK they will be superseded with someone who will KNOW (they will have a legal right as a director to see financial papers that the trust can’t)
Please tell me that’s incorrect…..
The trust just like anyone else will be able to access yearly accounts.
A director on a board will be privy to far more information.

Again anyone wish to dispute that?
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« Reply #29382 on: October 07, 2021, 19:07:12 pm »

Can anyone come on here and explain how they are fit for purpose??
There whole being was having a seat on the board.
They’ve given one up.
They’ve declined the offer to stand to regain a place on the board.

How can they still be relevant given THEIR choices.

I’ve met many board members and they are decent people , they really are, but the club needs much better representation and a new trust that can work with the club, have board representation and report to fans rather than make ‘executive’ decisions

The trust imo is currently just a clique of rebel rousers who have an aim of fan ownership with no blueprint(even random admits they haven’t canvassed opinion) in how to achieve it.

Fans are actually paying for this level of incompetence.

Things need to move on if there is to be a group of fans who will hold the club to account.
The current trust have proved not once but twice
that they have failed the fan base but somehow think they have the right to represent fans views  Tongue

Imo a new supporters group is needed that can report to the fans, have democratically elected members who will hold the club to account, will have ONE travel club and have the backing of the majority of fans.
We will soon have a new fans rep on the board and imo he needs to address this rather than go backwards to a trust that has become increasingly distant from the club and the fans who pay money for it to represent.

Can anyone argue against this??

I assume this is your pitch about your intention to form and head up Trust Mk2??
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« Reply #29383 on: October 07, 2021, 19:09:22 pm »

So in keeping with Rogers new rule. Is that a post from a Trust board member. Or as a standard contributor to this site…

BTW. Your version of events is a lot more simplistic than what actually happened. But I have lot of time for the people involved at that time. So I’ll leave that where it is.

I didn't know Roger made the rules for this site!

Actually, its probably more a post from me as a standard contributor than a Trust Board member, yes its simplistic in parts, but also pretty accurate i'd say...... unless you care to disagree?
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« Reply #29384 on: October 07, 2021, 19:15:59 pm »

Im suggesting that they were comprehensively outmanoeuvred by DC and comprehensively outmanoeuvred  by KT.
How hard is it to understand that no one will care what the trust THINK they will be superseded with someone who will KNOW (they will have a legal right as a director to see financial papers that the trust can’t)
Please tell me that’s incorrect…..
The trust just like anyone else will be able to access yearly accounts.
A director on a board will be privy to far more information.

Again anyone wish to dispute that?


Yes, i'll dispute that again.....and as a standard contributor too!

I have yet to see a statement of roles and responsibilities, nor any evidence of what this fans Director will or will not be able to see, what level of involvement he will have, or anything along those lines.

You seem to think that this person will be given unfettered access to everything. What are you expecting? An end to "undisclosed" transfer fees maybe?

They may or may not be privvy to more information....which would then beg the question as to why that sort of information was not made available to fans before, rather than now entrusting it with a supporters rep and letting them tell the fans instead.
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« Reply #29385 on: October 07, 2021, 19:20:29 pm »

Can anyone come on here and explain how they are fit for purpose??
There whole being was having a seat on the board.
They’ve given one up.
They’ve declined the offer to stand to regain a place on the board.

How can they still be relevant given THEIR choices.

I’ve met many board members and they are decent people , they really are, but the club needs much better representation and a new trust that can work with the club, have board representation and report to fans rather than make ‘executive’ decisions

The trust imo is currently just a clique of rebel rousers who have an aim of fan ownership with no blueprint(even random admits they haven’t canvassed opinion) in how to achieve it.

Fans are actually paying for this level of incompetence.

Things need to move on if there is to be a group of fans who will hold the club to account.
The current trust have proved not once but twice
that they have failed the fan base but somehow think they have the right to represent fans views  Tongue

Imo a new supporters group is needed that can report to the fans, have democratically elected members who will hold the club to account, will have ONE travel club and have the backing of the majority of fans.
We will soon have a new fans rep on the board and imo he needs to address this rather than go backwards to a trust that has become increasingly distant from the club and the fans who pay money for it to represent.

Can anyone argue against this??

I can  Grin

The Trust is as new as you want it to be, why not join? or 'come' to a zoom board meeting?

Fans are not really paying for anything, have you see the joining fee?

We are starting to hold the club to account, did you read the presentation, ?

The Trust have democratically elected members, we are valued by some and some very important people at that.

No Trust board can work with the club at the moment, sorry but as soon as anyone upsets KT thats the end. He is fine when you are not pushing him or holding him to account.

Whose going to start this new supporter group? YOU, Hammy, Evers?Huh? The 2 who put themselves up to be Directors?  

Don't throw the baby out with the bath water

Tell me / the Trust EXACTLY what you want us to do. If it's work with the club, then fine, contact KT / GW / JW and see what response you get.

Agree have one travel club, I totally agree but again, YOU get the 3 parties together and see what happens.

Very easy to sit on here and type you should do this, you should do that, but again with a few active board members, trying to do everything on the cheap, against KT with £6m annually, PR & media staff plus local media if aint easy.

I / We get knocked for too little action, too much, being too aggressive, to being too laid back, for not having plans, for not having support, etc etc.

We don't represent the fans - well sorry but WTF does that actually mean?  

What do the fans actually want that in the short term that the Trust can change or have any say in?  And even then who do we listen to?  You, Hammy, Manwork, Who? someone pro club ? someone anti-club?  you tell me who and how?  

Everyone has different feelings and opinions on every subject.

Some of us are trying to make improvements for YOUR football club. Do you want to keep playing Sutton, Crawley, Stevenage and the like, because I know I don't.

The poll recently on here i posted showed almost no-one wanted League 2 football. We all wanted L1 as a minimum.

Its time for not only the Trust to change (which it is doing but again thats wrong cos some of us are too active)  but all of us fans too, time again to start taking actions, time to thinking bigger thoughts and all working towards making NTFC the club we want.

Trouble is it take effort and upsetting the apple cart a bit - which again some don't like (and some do)

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« Reply #29386 on: October 07, 2021, 19:22:32 pm »

So if I have shares in Tesco and decide to sell them, would you say I've taken that money out of Tesco?

again WTF, I am speechless.

I give up, 
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« Reply #29387 on: October 07, 2021, 19:23:33 pm »

Trust hat on now......

An article from back in the archives..... points of interest......

Timeline of when Cardoza was in an exclusivity agreement with Kelvin Thomas, mention of other interested parties that Cardoza was also in contact with at the time (KT's was not the only deal on the table, but perhaps the only deal that was on the table that was able to be completed before the court date), the notice that there was a fallback position brokered by the Trust and other local parties/businessmen which was shared with the Council should the takeover not go ahead, and also reference to the £10k hardship fund, and the explicit line that "We should stress that the fund will be repayable to the Trust if and when a takeover is complete, but for now the immediate priority is to support the staff in this desperate situation."

https://www.ntfctrust.co.uk/news/article/10000-set-aside-for-hardship-fund-for-ntfc-staff
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« Reply #29388 on: October 07, 2021, 19:26:36 pm »

Can anyone come on here and explain how they are fit for purpose??
There whole being was having a seat on the board.
They’ve given one up. Being a former Trust board member, I can tell you that the stick you get is totally over the top and unwarranted. I once posted something on FB as a favour to another board member because he was working, I then went out for the evening and got so much abuse for not answering questions about the post.
CAN YOU IMAGINE the abuse if the Trust had of said "We insist on our board place" to KT, after he had said it was a deal breaker. Don't forget, at this time, KT had promised to complete the East Stand , something no other interested party had offered to do, so it was decided that the best outcome for NTFC was to let KT go ahead. He exact words were "We don't hold board meetings as such, I'm in the USA, David is in Dubai and Mike in the UK, we just have the odd 3 way phone calls"


They’ve declined the offer to stand to regain a place on the board.Grange has explained that if the Trust had have put up a candidate, they would have stood down from the Trust to maintain the "independence"



I’ve met many board members and they are decent people , they really are, but the club needs much better representation and a new trust that can work with the club, have board representation and report to fans rather than make ‘executive’ decisions

The trust imo is currently just a clique of rebel rousers who have an aim of fan ownership with no blueprint(even random admits they haven’t canvassed opinion) in how to achieve it. As I posted , in this thread, about 2 hours ago there is NO aim of fan ownership except as a last resort


Imo a new supporters group is needed that can report to the fans, have democratically elected members who will hold the club to account, will have ONE travel club and have the backing of the majority of fans.You have just described the Trust down to a tee
We will soon have a new fans rep on the board and imo he needs to address this rather than go backwards to a trust that has become increasingly distant from the club and the fans who pay money for it to represent.It's not an easy thing to start a fans group, it takes a lot of dedicated people working lots of hours, for nothing, by all means have a go, it takes a bit more hard work than sitting behind a keyboard slagging people off but doing nothing yourself .

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« Reply #29389 on: October 07, 2021, 19:29:48 pm »



I think an Infrastructure Foundation is the way to start the ball rolling (towards the net I hope  Smiley).

Manwork, Singcobb, Hammy, Deepcut, Carton, Whitedogdo, Everbrite, Teachers pet, Coolcat, Steve Massey and all you others, in principle, would you contribute a small monthly amount to go towards an infrastructure project?
[/quote]

On this basis, yes, I would be in for that.
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« Reply #29390 on: October 07, 2021, 19:34:14 pm »

I didn't know Roger made the rules for this site!

Actually, its probably more a post from me as a standard contributor than a Trust Board member, yes its simplistic in parts, but also pretty accurate i'd say...... unless you care to disagree?

I was there with it going around me, in several meetings. I’m sure I’ll be wrong again 😀😀 But as they say “history is a tool used by people to justify their intentions”. Let’s just say I have heard a few liberal interpretations around this whole fiasco.
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« Reply #29391 on: October 07, 2021, 19:39:43 pm »

I was there with it going around me, in several meetings. I’m sure I’ll be wrong again 😀😀 But as they say “history is a tool used by people to justify their intentions”. Let’s just say I have heard a few liberal interpretations around this whole fiasco.

So should we get back on topic? Post 29484 on this thread and i'm going to ask is "Redevelopment closer than ever"?
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« Reply #29392 on: October 07, 2021, 19:57:47 pm »

So should we get back on topic? Post 29484 on this thread and i'm going to ask is "Redevelopment closer than ever"?

Imminent…   : Grin

I’ve seen the plans  Grin
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« Reply #29393 on: October 07, 2021, 19:58:37 pm »

Imminent…   : Grin

I’ve seen the plans  Grin

Ok.....mum's the word!!  Grin
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« Reply #29394 on: October 07, 2021, 20:42:58 pm »

I can  Grin

The Trust is as new as you want it to be, why not join? or 'come' to a zoom board meeting?

Fans are not really paying for anything, have you see the joining fee?

We are starting to hold the club to account, did you read the presentation, ?

The Trust have democratically elected members, we are valued by some and some very important people at that.

No Trust board can work with the club at the moment, sorry but as soon as anyone upsets KT thats the end. He is fine when you are not pushing him or holding him to account.

Whose going to start this new supporter group? YOU, Hammy, Evers?Huh? The 2 who put themselves up to be Directors?  

Don't throw the baby out with the bath water

Tell me / the Trust EXACTLY what you want us to do. If it's work with the club, then fine, contact KT / GW / JW and see what response you get.

Agree have one travel club, I totally agree but again, YOU get the 3 parties together and see what happens.

Very easy to sit on here and type you should do this, you should do that, but again with a few active board members, trying to do everything on the cheap, against KT with £6m annually, PR & media staff plus local media if aint easy.

I / We get knocked for too little action, too much, being too aggressive, to being too laid back, for not having plans, for not having support, etc etc.

We don't represent the fans - well sorry but WTF does that actually mean?  

What do the fans actually want that in the short term that the Trust can change or have any say in?  And even then who do we listen to?  You, Hammy, Manwork, Who? someone pro club ? someone anti-club?  you tell me who and how?  

Everyone has different feelings and opinions on every subject.

Some of us are trying to make improvements for YOUR football club. Do you want to keep playing Sutton, Crawley, Stevenage and the like, because I know I don't.

The poll recently on here i posted showed almost no-one wanted League 2 football. We all wanted L1 as a minimum.

Its time for not only the Trust to change (which it is doing but again thats wrong cos some of us are too active)  but all of us fans too, time again to start taking actions, time to thinking bigger thoughts and all working towards making NTFC the club we want.

Trouble is it take effort and upsetting the apple cart a bit - which again some don't like (and some do)


A lot of words there but again not one denial of any of the points I made.
Can you just own the fact that the trust gave up board representation and declined to attempt to regain a place on the board???
If you can’t begin to accept/own that then you will struggle to accept that the trust has now been marginalised.
As regards the fact that the trust doesn’t represent paying members….
Decisions are made by a trust board without consulting the membership…
Can you deny that???
What sort of business that has a paying membership does that??
Your local working men’s club is run better than ntfc trust imo
Maybe ask someone who knows how to put things to the vote as regards membership.

These are all basic principals of asking people to pay membership fees….
If a working men’s club wants to open for longer hours than normal it informs the membership and gives paying members the chance to vote before taking the results to a council meeting.

Ntfc trust give up board representation without informing paying members and then have a fortnight to ask paid up members whether or not one of their board members should consider standing in an attempt to regain a place on the clubs board(the very essence of the trust being formed)

How can they think this is acceptable.
Even more so IF they (and again the royal they)think it is acceptable why have they not resigned en masse as a board??

It is a clique in every sense imo and now anyone who challenges that perception with FACTS is not even given the courtesy of an admission (although in fairness Keith,who may or may not be on the board did admit that the trust gave up board representation)
Do I think less of him??

No I think more of him because he is willing to own the perceived error rather than ignore the issue
Is it any wonder that I see the trust as defunct??

The more trust members post on here without owning previous errors(il help you again just as I did six years ago….failing to attempt to regain a place on the clubs board while purporting to represent the fan base will come back to haunt the trust)
The more the flat denial goes on the more it shows a group of friends attempting to wield power over a fan base whilst neglecting to ask their opinion of a paid membership  at every twist and turn.

The trust are clinging on by their fingernails and anyone who sees this as other than a forfeit of power is frankly misguided.
If they must continue as an entity they imo should still hold car boot sales whilst allowing the fan rep to get on with his job
Representing the fans.
The job the trust was originally set up for….

They could also ask the rep for clarification about the 10k they lent/gave the board that they themselves have failed to address over the last six years.

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« Reply #29395 on: October 07, 2021, 20:49:55 pm »

A lot of words there but again not one denial of any of the points I made.
Can you just own the fact that the trust gave up board representation and declined to attempt to regain a place on the board???
If you can’t begin to accept/own that then you will struggle to accept that the trust has now been marginalised.
As regards the fact that the trust doesn’t represent paying members….
Decisions are made by a trust board without consulting the membership…
Can you deny that???
What sort of business that has a paying membership does that??
Your local working men’s club is run better than ntfc trust imo
Maybe ask someone who knows how to put things to the vote as regards membership.

These are all basic principals of asking people to pay membership fees….
If a working men’s club wants to open for longer hours than normal it informs the membership and gives paying members the chance to vote before taking the results to a council meeting.

Ntfc trust give up board representation without informing paying members and then have a fortnight to ask paid up members whether or not one of their board members should consider standing in an attempt to regain a place on the clubs board(the very essence of the trust being formed)

How can they think this is acceptable.
Even more so IF they (and again the royal they)think it is acceptable why have they not resigned en masse as a board??

It is a clique in every sense imo and now anyone who challenges that perception with FACTS is not even given the courtesy of an admission (although in fairness Keith,who may or may not be on the board did admit that the trust gave up board representation)
Do I think less of him??

No I think more of him because he is willing to own the perceived error rather than ignore the issue
Is it any wonder that I see the trust as defunct??

The more trust members post on here without owning previous errors(il help you again just as I did six years ago….failing to attempt to regain a place on the clubs board while purporting to represent the fan base will come back to haunt the trust)
The more the flat denial goes on the more it shows a group of friends attempting to wield power over a fan base whilst neglecting to ask their opinion of a paid membership  at every twist and turn.

The trust are clinging on by their fingernails and anyone who sees this as other than a forfeit of power is frankly misguided.
If they must continue as an entity they imo should still hold car boot sales whilst allowing the fan rep to get on with his job
Representing the fans.
The job the trust was originally set up for….

They could also ask the rep for clarification about the 10k they lent/gave the board that they themselves have failed to address over the last six years.


I now suggest you are on one big wind up......how about looking at the posts I have made in direct response to yours??
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« Reply #29396 on: October 07, 2021, 21:01:03 pm »

Sorry, ive been off site for a while, any idea when there's any building progress?
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« Reply #29397 on: October 07, 2021, 21:17:43 pm »

Sorry, ive been off site for a while, any idea when there's any building progress?

It’s very hard to say.

Random is in the process of setting up a whip around..

Bagsy the whip….



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« Reply #29398 on: October 07, 2021, 21:19:22 pm »

Trust hat on now......

An article from back in the archives..... points of interest......

Timeline of when Cardoza was in an exclusivity agreement with Kelvin Thomas, mention of other interested parties that Cardoza was also in contact with at the time (KT's was not the only deal on the table, but perhaps the only deal that was on the table that was able to be completed before the court date), the notice that there was a fallback position brokered by the Trust and other local parties/businessmen which was shared with the Council should the takeover not go ahead, and also reference to the £10k hardship fund, and the explicit line that "We should stress that the fund will be repayable to the Trust if and when a takeover is complete, but for now the immediate priority is to support the staff in this desperate situation."

https://www.ntfctrust.co.uk/news/article/10000-set-aside-for-hardship-fund-for-ntfc-staff
Can you explain if the above is true how the trust have failed to
recoup their 10k raised by their members.
This has actually gone on longer than KTs proposed east stand redevelopment.

What efforts have the trust made to recoup this money?
Asked nicely Shocked Huh?

Are the trust actually capable of achieving anything other than division amongst fans and friction with the clubs board??

The fans rep can’t be appointed quickly enough imo and I pray to god he isn’t enticed into joining the trust board (the one which wouldn’t put up a candidate of their own, despite constantly undermining the club and putting up half baked fan ownership opinions without fully consulting the fan base as to how they hoped to achieve this….as of earlier on today a trust member admitted he’d have no idea of the selling price Grin)

Again anyone wish to dispute this (think hard given a trust board member has admitted not canvassing opinion and not having any idea of the selling price)

This trust fan ownership line has been spun on here for months and as of today the trust hasn’t even asked the selling price  Shocked Grin Grin

Again

What are people actually paying trust membership fees for??
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« Reply #29399 on: October 07, 2021, 21:34:50 pm »

Just a quick bit of advise for the trust board…

I’m no sage and really not in a position to offer advice as I readily admit that there are many other forum users on here with far better business acumen than I

But ( and I think even with my limited grasp of  business  acumen I make a valid point here )

When trying to purchase an item , whether it be a Mars bar or a football club , if there is no price tag visible it is always prudent to ask the owner (be it shop keeper or football club owner ) what the price is in order for the transaction to proceed.

Has anyone from the trust thought to ask the club owners what they would need to receive in order to sell the club…

It’s been a few months since the trust first announced their intention to look into fan ownership..

Can they put a timescale upon when they may ask this seemingly innocuous question  Grin Grin Grin

My sincere apologies if they have already advised the fans of the selling price and I readily admit (and for the trusts sake) hope that I have missed this trivial point in the thousands of pages in this thread.

To save me years of my life looking back at the thousands of pages would it be possible for one of the trust board to make the selling price available to the fan base and state when this price was advised

Ta
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