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Redevelopment Closer Than Ever?

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Author Topic: Redevelopment Closer Than Ever?  (Read 1178501 times)
Carton Lid
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« Reply #29380 on: October 06, 2021, 10:49:04 am »

. This theory has only been cemented by those who support the Trust. who have stated that there is no real alternative to a 51% or a fan owned model. If you disagree with this, you are automatically perceived as anti Trust or pro KT.

I can only repeat what I have said right from the start. The club, like it or not, does not see the Trust as representative of the support. 
.
In summary. The Trust needs to get back in touch with the support. Yes you're clever. Yes you care. But this is not getting across to the support. Your failure to galvanise the support behind your ideas, has left you looking like just another interested party in the stadium, enabling land, and club. You need the support. You ARE a supporters Trust. As for the club. If KT and DB do not start to show significant change at NTFC, they will topple. I just feel that we are on the cusp of a tide of resentment. A few more bad results, and a plummet in league position will bring with it consequences. We are undoubtedly at a cross roads. The coming months will test the intentions and resolve of all involved.


I would really like to see some evidence to support your first statement, I know you will struggle to provide i,t because the statement is untrue, Please show me where it has been said  "that there is no real alternative to a 51% or a fan owned model"  I was on the Trust board for over 10 years and that was never stated. We could have had a fan owned club in 2015 but the Trust/Local Consortium stood aside for KT/DB , because that was thought to be better for NTFC.
    I agree 100% that the fans need to get together but you really don't help by posting things, attributed to the Trust, that are incorrect. The Trust are the only organisation that the fans at NTFC have and, as posted by a couple of people on here, if you are a member and are not happy with how it's run, let them know, don't just post negative stuff here. Nigel, you say the Trust needs to galvanise the fans, that is 100% true, but most of your posts seemed to be aimed at splitting the support, which has the opposite  effect, so why do you do that ?
« Last Edit: October 06, 2021, 14:02:52 pm by Deepcut Cobbler » Report Spam   Logged
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« Reply #29381 on: October 06, 2021, 11:44:32 am »



In all fairness Melly, that says a lot with actually saying nothing at all. In some respects, it is merely an exercise in stating the obvious. As I have said for some time. There should not be a perception that there are actual sides here. This theory has only been cemented by those who support the Trust. who have stated that there is no real alternative to a 51% or a fan owned model. If you disagree with this, you are automatically perceived as anti Trust or pro KT. The truth lies well in between both extremes, and alienating those that want to explore alternatives, doesn't look good.

I'm a supporter of NTFC. I don't agree with the idea that the land should be handed over without significant caveats. However, I am adamant that it should go to the club for the benefit of the club. Those that don't agree with that, will have to sit by and watch it handed over to a faceless conglomerate and any potential revenue streams will dry up and probably end up off shore anyway.

I can only repeat what I have said right from the start. The club, like it or not, does not see the Trust as representative of the support. That more than likely has nothing to do with whether or not it is. It is mostly due to the fact that the Trust hasn't had any significant part in the fans thoughts for many years now. Like it or not, it is seen as an irrelevance. This in turn allows KT to exploit that void and fill it with promises and notions that the club is not dead in the water, but is in fact a dynamic, forward thinking club, that is currently having its ambitions and aspirations curtailed by those pesky kids at the Trust. There whole situation, as you say Melly, has led to an impasse.

So, something has to give. Firstly the Trust has to start doing something more than hiding behind meeting room doors. It has to start aligning itself with the fanbase. It has to have less of a think tank appearance, and more of a soft side that the support can relate to. Our supporters are not interested in politics. They are interested in what's on offer. You can have the best intentions in the world, but these amount to nothing if you cannot get people to join you in change. I can assure you, just a few hundred well led supporters, would change things.

As for KT and DB. Something will give here soon. There is no doubt that they come into this with one, maybe two eyes on the development potential. However, the patience is definitely wearing thin. I'm the first to admit these days, that we need to see something happen that doesn't rely on building something external to the ground. Sixfields does look tired and dirty. In fact there is a malaise around the place. It just feels static and apathetic.

In summary. The Trust needs to get back in touch with the support. Yes you're clever. Yes you care. But this is not getting across to the support. Your failure to galvanise the support behind your ideas, has left you looking like just another interested party in the stadium, enabling land, and club. You need the support. You ARE a supporters Trust. As for the club. If KT and DB do not start to show significant change at NTFC, they will topple. I just feel that we are on the cusp of a tide of resentment. A few more bad results, and a plummet in league position will bring with it consequences. We are undoubtedly at a cross roads. The coming months will test the intentions and resolve of all involved.


Great post Hammy, I totally agree that the Trust need to start raising their profile of what they want and getting more support (and understanding)

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« Reply #29382 on: October 06, 2021, 12:04:43 pm »

I don't disagree with any of that, Melly. The thing is, to enact most of it would require a fundamental change in the structure of the game from top to bottom. I'm not saying that won't happen some day, but realistically that change isn't going to be driven by the supporters of humble little Northampton Town.

I said this to someone yesterday, we have to deal in the here and now. Where we are is that we are run by investors, not fans. They've nonetheless invested well in our playing staff in the past, but that seems to have dried up. Whether that is because of covid related cloth cutting or that they've decided enough is enough is anyone's guess.

If we want new owners who are more ambitious for the club and are willing to spend accordingly
then the easiest way to expedite the current owners' exit is to all pull in the same direction to get them what they want.

That's my issue with the Trust over all this. They don't like KT or DB and want them out, but equally aren't willing to compromise to achieve this (on anything, even a bloody Zoom call for Christ's sake!). To this end they keep throwing obstacles in the path and while none of them are full on roadblocks, they are enough to slow the journey.

In my mind, the best (and more importantly realistic) outcome is:
- the surrounding redevelopment is completed.
- the resulting profit shared between the club and the council, thereby buying back some goodwill in the wider community after the loan scandal.
- part of the club's share is used to fund a modest completion of the East Stand (and possibly to pay off the directors loans)
- some cash going into the club coffers to put us on an even keel
- a nice, fat profit for the owners.

At this point, as they are investors not supporters, the club becomes a millstone around the owners' necks and they are likely to sell, but they will be selling a club with marginally better facilities and a decent balancesheet, which would be an attractive proposition for any potential buyers, who will hopefully be more interested in the football side of things (or could be far worse than we currently have, but that's a risk you will always take!!)

Everyone wins though; the fans get a finished ground and a more stable football club, the owners walk away with a profit, the Trust get shot of the current owners, the council get some cash back and the people of the town get some of their lost taxes back, plus some additional jobs from the surrounding developments.

We (the fans, the club, the council, the Trust) all need to be pulling in the right direction for that to happen though. As long as we're all pulling in different directions, nothing will move anywhere.

The Trust have compromised for 6 years, they stood aside to allow Kt to take over and have been treated with destain every since.

The Trust have had a number of zoom calls with KT / DB over the years.

On the vitally important East stand land deal that KT has sat on for 6 years, a zoom call just would not cut it (again after quite a few zoom call where nothing ever moved forward)

KT only involved the Trust again when it became clear that the council valued the Trust's input and approval (of sorts)

Genuine Question BOTN - Why would you want a modest completion of the East stand?
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« Reply #29383 on: October 06, 2021, 13:02:01 pm »

. This theory has only been cemented by those who support the Trust. who have stated that there is no real alternative to a 51% or a fan owned model. If you disagree with this, you are automatically perceived as anti Trust or pro KT.

I can only repeat what I have said right from the start. The club, like it or not, does not see the Trust as representative of the support. 
.
In summary. The Trust needs to get back in touch with the support. Yes you're clever. Yes you care. But this is not getting across to the support. Your failure to galvanise the support behind your ideas, has left you looking like just another interested party in the stadium, enabling land, and club. You need the support. You ARE a supporters Trust. As for the club. If KT and DB do not start to show significant change at NTFC, they will topple. I just feel that we are on the cusp of a tide of resentment. A few more bad results, and a plummet in league position will bring with it consequences. We are undoubtedly at a cross roads. The coming months will test the intentions and resolve of all involved.
/quote]
I would really like to see some evidence to support your first statement, I know you will struggle to provide i,t because the statement is untrue, Please show me where it has been said  "that there is no real alternative to a 51% or a fan owned model"  I was on the Trust board for over 10 years and that was never stated. We could have had a fan owned club in 2015 but the Trust/Local Consortium stood aside for KT/DB , because that was thought to be better for NTFC.
    I agree 100% that the fans need to get together but you really don't help by posting things, attributed to the Trust, that are incorrect. The Trust are the only organisation that the fans at NTFC have and, as posted by a couple of people on here, if you are a member and are not happy with how it's run, let them know, don't just post negative stuff here. Nigel, you say the Trust needs to galvanise the fans, that is 100% true, but most of your posts seemed to be aimed at splitting the support, which has the opposite  effect, so why do you do that ?

You seem to permanently concentrate on singular aspects of what I write, rather than making any attempt to understand the point I'm making. I can evidence  that it is a model that the Trust agree with, because you held a publicly attended meeting to push it. My experience is drawn from that and some of those who attended that meeting, plus other things said to me at Trust meetings subsequent to that. I specifically said those that "support the Trust", I did not mention the board members. A Trust board member also inferred that a certain local millionaire might be interested in buying the club, as part of a fan/investor model. The same person was referred to at the public meeting by a Trust board member, when addressing the concerns of a club employee.

I have repeatedly agreed with a number of things that the Trust have done, and continue to do so. I have praised them for what they have done on every level except one. Namely fan ownership, or a fan run club. I don't like it as an idea. That clearly appeals to your sensitivities. So what do you do, you read through all the stuff I say about the club, that is in disagreement with their stance, and you ignore it. Yet I disagree with one aspect of the Trust, and you latch onto it and label me as anti Trust.

I genuinely believe if you put your prejudices about me aside, you would see that I am frustrated, like most, with both sides. I believe that both are ignoring the support. My argument goes no further than the Trust are not getting the support on side. I'm happy to listen to any rational argument that you have, that shows an increase in membership, engagement, in fact anything that you can present that endorses your opinion that the current policies are supported. Show me it, that's the best way to prove your point. If you can, I will accept that I am being unfair in what I say and apologise. If you can't, then perhaps you owe me an apology.
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« Reply #29384 on: October 06, 2021, 14:02:31 pm »

I've read your answers in red Sing and the funny thing is, you and Random do not disagree about anything arising from his nine points.
You accept every single one.
Your assertion that the Trust couldn't do any better is irrelevant.
The question is, could and should the clubs owners be doing so if they have the best interests of the club at heart?



You have completelymissed the point. My opinion that the trust could not run the club, could not have financed the club through covid times and financed changing managers and getting in players is the crux of my repsonse. As far as I am concerned the trust even though they want some of the same things I do should never be let anywhere near the ownership of the club. For me it is like green political parties, great ideas not a fúcking clue on how to manage them fiscally.
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« Reply #29385 on: October 06, 2021, 14:12:33 pm »


You have completelymissed the point. My opinion that the trust could not run the club, could not have financed the club through covid times and financed changing managers and getting in players is the crux of my repsonse. As far as I am concerned the trust even though they want some of the same things I do should never be let anywhere near the ownership of the club. For me it is like green political parties, great ideas not a fúcking clue on how to manage them fiscally.
THEY WOULD EMPLOY PEOPLE, EXACTLY THE SAME AS KT DOES
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« Reply #29386 on: October 06, 2021, 14:28:44 pm »

THEY WOULD EMPLOY PEOPLE, EXACTLY THE SAME AS KT DOES
WHO
I have askes several times. If you want this scheme to be backed then we need to know who and what their credentials are and how they are better than what we have now.
Also doesnt answer the finance points
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« Reply #29387 on: October 06, 2021, 14:53:45 pm »

WHO
I have askes several times. If you want this scheme to be backed then we need to know who and what their credentials are and how they are better than what we have now.
Also doesnt answer the finance points
The staff would all be TUPE.
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« Reply #29388 on: October 06, 2021, 15:03:48 pm »

Who would be on the board?
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« Reply #29389 on: October 06, 2021, 15:27:05 pm »

Singcobb, just to clarify, you do know that the club has an income of approx £6m per year from sources outside of the owners?

RE Covid, its a bit of a secret but most small clubs were fine, they used furlough and they were issued money from the FA and Football league, etc. No club has even gone close to going under since Covid (ok Derby but that's a different issue)

Woody, what are the credentials of KT and DB?  If you want to talk staff, well as Carton said, you employee people

The board would consist of a mix of people who were very experienced in a variety of ways, all having NTFC's best interests at heart, not their own.   That is an improvement to what we have now for a start
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« Reply #29390 on: October 06, 2021, 15:42:45 pm »

Singcobb, just to clarify, you do know that the club has an income of approx £6m per year from sources outside of the owners?

RE Covid, its a bit of a secret but most small clubs were fine, they used furlough and they were issued money from the FA and Football league, etc. No club has even gone close to going under since Covid (ok Derby but that's a different issue)

Woody, what are the credentials of KT and DB?  If you want to talk staff, well as Carton said, you employee people

The board would consist of a mix of people who were very experienced in a variety of ways, all having NTFC's best interests at heart, not their own.   That is an improvement to what we have now for a start
Its is a great improvement and what I would imagine every fans wants, so... who are they?
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« Reply #29391 on: October 06, 2021, 15:50:11 pm »

Think you will find it is KT who has bolted the door not the Trust. It started a long long time ago. If I list everything again you moan I am just repeating myself

I am defending myself and the Trust as it doesn't matter what they do it is wrong in your eyes

You can say that you don't blah blah blah

Why not implore our owners to do more, they currently are in control and have most of the power

Again its not mine or the Trust's fault that we are underachieving so badly and KT has delivered zero value as a Chairman.

Sorry I'm not fluffy, I don't say things I don't mean or I know are incorrect, just to appease you or the owners

Sorry i struggle to find much that the club does as positive, that has been done for the medium term, has been planned and well thought out or certainly better or different that what the vast majority of other clubs do.

Again you are shooting the messenger.

Why not try and win me over then, again tell me 3 reasons why I should support KT as our own and Chairman


I assume that you have read my original post properly by now?
Any chance of an appropriate response, instead of your knee jerk reaction to what you thought that I had written?
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« Reply #29392 on: October 06, 2021, 15:53:43 pm »

Its is a great improvement and what I would imagine every fans wants, so... who are they?

At this stage, I just don't know. Hopefully if there is a clear pathway then people will put their names (and money) forward wanting to get involved.

As I said, a combination of money, knowledge and dedication.  

KT put forward no plan (well ok he did £4m) and did not ask or seek permission to take over the football club. He was hardly a roaring success at Oxford and has not demonstrate any lasting success here, so the bar is not exactly high.





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« Reply #29393 on: October 06, 2021, 16:03:29 pm »

Il throw my twopenneth in.
Why are people having a spat on here?
We are on the verge of having an elected fans rep on the board of the club and it is THEY who will prove to be important towards the future of the club and they who will be able to brief fans and keep everyone updated in real time.
The trust may want many things but will not matter one jot as they will be superseded by the elected fan representative ,to a position historically held by a trust board member.
That ship has sailed now.
The trust who historically did have a seat on the board won’t have.
The new incumbent will be impartial and reading up on both candidates they both look good to me.
Whoever wins will have the board seat that’s been vacated by the trust.
I find it interesting that no one from the trust stood and as far as I know didn’t bother telling their members that they would effectively be giving up their historic position on the board.
Given this situation it’s probably for the best that no one from the trust applied.

Hopefully the new board member will embrace the fan base in a way the trust never did towards the end of its tenure.
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« Reply #29394 on: October 06, 2021, 16:18:28 pm »

I must take issue with you random over your statement that you say nothing that is incorrect.
You say KT has bought zero value to the club.
This is plain wrong.
He delivered the much heralded fans village by sticking the fans under the back of the north stand, putting a very expensive (imo) hamburger stall there and surrounding it with a few barriers that were left over from the stalled redevelopment.
The value of that to the match day experience was immeasurable although one could argue that Tony ansells boiled burgers thirty odd years ago would have seen revenues sky rocket adding yet more value.

Please get your facts right before saying our owners have bought zero value to the club.
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« Reply #29395 on: October 06, 2021, 16:22:20 pm »

I assume that you have read my original post properly by now?
Any chance of an appropriate response, instead of your knee jerk reaction to what you thought that I had written?

Thanks Deepcut for the reminder, I have been travelling a lot recently.

The Trust communications are on their website and official social media accounts

Anything else is posted as personal views and not necessary that of the Trust and or its board.

Therefore my posts are mine. And I am far more impatient, frustrated and aggressive regarding the situation hence the tone of my posts. The Trust board as a whole, for various reasons, are running out of patience with KT but there are different voices and opinions.

The refusal of KT to answer the 25 questions (he requested) and offering another public control zoom call was not appropriate in the circumstances. The Trust got a lot of flack and made out to be the ones who were being stubborn and uncooperative. Remember KT is the master of spin, has a team of PR and media people, plus 'controls' on the local media. The Trust board are 9-11 people, all who have days jobs, volunteering, so I believe are due some slack. It really annoys me that some on here, hold the Trust up to the highest levels of scrutiny and expectations but never to the owners, who are ultimately responsible for the mess we are in.

Please consider that perhaps the Trust or it's supporters needed to be more vocal and aggressive to get noticed, to show that all is not well and to put pressure on KT to do more.

You could say it has had some effect, since the presentation, how many times had the club put our PR re being local, community, local fee, the appointment of Kingsthorpe associate Director, the supporters rep etc. Now they may be window dressing and many will see through them as cynical but perhaps KT is listening, although they are all free. I would be more impressed if they fixed the windows and improved the catering or opened a tin of paint.

The TRust need to show supporters they care, they are human, they want to help, and they are prepared to listen and learn. (BECAUSE THEY DO) They want ideas, volunteers, help etc etc. I want to see far better, regular, modern communication such as podcasts, video interviews, zoom meetings and even question time style events etc. This is being discussed now, again anyone interested please let me know, we really want and need more help.

I understand people have different views and they are all valid but ultimately is about those who lead and who wants to follow.

You set-up / run this forum, which is great (most of the time), and I thank you for all your time and effort. You do what you think is best for the majority, but you can't please everyone, all of the time. It will be the same for the Trust and the new supporters rep. You have to take a view you are doing it for the right reasons. It is impossible to represent the exact feelings of every single supporter on every subject.

Football is changing, supporters are becoming more and more involved, football is not like any other business, it is / should be a community asset.

I hope that at least answers some of your concerns  Smiley
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« Reply #29396 on: October 06, 2021, 16:24:55 pm »

I must take issue with you random over your statement that you say nothing that is incorrect.
You say KT has bought zero value to the club.
This is plain wrong.
He delivered the much heralded fans village by sticking the fans under the back of the north stand, putting a very expensive (imo) hamburger stall there and surrounding it with a few barriers that were left over from the stalled redevelopment.
The value of that to the match day experience was immeasurable although one could argue that Tony ansells boiled burgers thirty odd years ago would have seen revenues sky rocket adding yet more value.

Please get your facts right before saying our owners have bought zero value to the club.

You nearly had me there  Grin

Yeah funny how the burgers are the most expensive yet the barriers the cheapest you can find
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« Reply #29397 on: October 06, 2021, 16:27:14 pm »

THEY WOULD EMPLOY PEOPLE, EXACTLY THE SAME AS KT DOES

AND WHERE DOES THE MONEY COME FROM? YES THE CLUB HAS INCOME, BUT THAT OBVIOUSLY HASN'T BEEN ENOUGH SO WHERE WOULD THE TRUST GET SEVEN MILLION FROM? OH I FORGOT THE LONG QUEUE OF LOCAL BUSINESS MEN WHO ARE WILLING TO SPUNK AWAY A SHÍTLOAD OF MONEY.
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« Reply #29398 on: October 06, 2021, 16:29:11 pm »

Singcobb, just to clarify, you do know that the club has an income of approx £6m per year from sources outside of the owners?

RE Covid, its a bit of a secret but most small clubs were fine, they used furlough and they were issued money from the FA and Football league, etc. No club has even gone close to going under since Covid (ok Derby but that's a different issue)

Woody, what are the credentials of KT and DB?  If you want to talk staff, well as Carton said, you employee people

The board would consist of a mix of people who were very experienced in a variety of ways, all having NTFC's best interests at heart, not their own.   That is an improvement to what we have now for a start

And it is obviously not enough otherwise we wouldn't be in debt to DB would we?
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« Reply #29399 on: October 06, 2021, 16:35:29 pm »

And it is obviously not enough otherwise we wouldn't be in debt to DB would we?

Or has it been enough and it is just the direction the club has taken that has resulted in the debt? Is the payroll too big? Are we employing too many staff? Have the marketing department being pulling their weight?
There are a lot of variables......

To simply say that "it hasn't been enough" seemingly totally misses the point!
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