Redevelopment Closer Than Ever?

[guest3359]

so are you guys totally happen and content that after 6 years of nothing, a fan puts forward an idea to provide better facilities, the club no not interested but if you want to do everything go ahead, basically not one piece of support for the venture from the club and owners

AND YOU ARE ALL FINE WITH THAT?

Please remind me of one club led initiative please

It is telling that all the anti-fan, anti Trust posters are all suddenly posting.

BTW:  You can't take any of the link seriously as it was only a statement and showed no evidence or proof. I must see it in writing, or a video or at least audio recording as you can't prove that the Trust were prepared to get involved and the club not. Where is the evidence?

Seriously Random, get a new line or something else to hide behind.
I was excited because as a fan I finally had something to get behind. A group of people had stopped pointing at everyone else and seized the initiative to develop an exciting concept. The plans that they created trod the line between achievable and excessive but id rather they shoot for the stars, and then through the due diligence they mentioned, hit the moon.
We've all been shown what has happened at other clubs where fans have led the initiative and funded fan villages etc and how we are missing out on that. I thought we finally had that, and I have said on several occasions I would have contributed.
But we didn't, it was essentially a school project to design a stand and stage that they expected someone else to do for them. We can all put forward ideas, I have even emailed KT with a couple of suggestions.
So essentially where we are is no club led initiative and no fan led initiative. But something else to 'attack' both the club and the Trust. Thats why its annoyed me so much

[MCHammer]

Look at it another way, say you needed a conservatory on your house and it was going to cost £20K, a friend said he'll build it for you if you get the drawings done, which will cost £200, why would you turn him down ? You are getting your property improved at virtually no cost to you and added value for when you sell the property.

So it turns out your mate wanted you to pay for the drawings, buy all the materials and build it yourself.

[Manwork04]

If it's not for the public domain, then it's a waste of time an ordinary member asking for it?
How do you know that 'most aren't interested'?  I haven't asked for it, but if it was made available, I'd have a look to see if I could decipher it in order to make my own judgement.
So, the 'evidence' that The Trust Board is using, in an attempt to persuade us, isn't available for perusal or public consumption?

What happened to the £6m 'Chinese Money' that allegedly disappeared from the records?
Was it a legal or non-legal activity? If non-legal, is it being pursued by anyone?

Answers that include the terms (or similar to) "we believe/we assume/in our opinion/we know/from our limited knowledge/they haven't challenged us" etc... are not the answers that I am looking for.

I know most aren’t interested because some have actually posted that on this forum.
The £6m never disappeared at all the the Trust have the evidence.

[guest3359]

I know most aren’t interested because some have actually posted that on this forum.
The £6m never disappeared at all the the Trust have the evidence.

I have requested it and look forward to seeing it. Have you seen it Manwork?

[Deepcut Cobbler]

I know most aren’t interested because some have actually posted that on this forum.
The £6m never disappeared at all the the Trust have the evidence.

That's the sticker then isn't it?
'Most' alongside 'Some' on this forum doesn't equate to a majority of the membership.

[Manwork04]

I have requested it and look forward to seeing it. Have you seen it Manwork?

As I’ve said before, I’m not professionally involved with the trust board.

[Manwork04]

That's the sticker then isn't it?
'Most' alongside 'Some' on this forum doesn't equate to a majority of the membership.

Which is the greater most or some?

[guest3359]

As I’ve said before, I’m not professionally involved with the trust board.

So for clarity, thats a no

[Deepcut Cobbler]

Which is the greater most or some?

On this forum, most, however that doesn't take into account the other 600+ Trust members. 

[KeithB]

I did ask them.  Many times.  The most recent being yesterday!  Do you know what they said?  You should do because I posted it on here several months ago.  "The Trust Board is satisfied that the evidence of the payments in the amounts stated is accurate."  That's it.  Is that a good enough answer?

And you think the club are bad at answering questions.

Here's some facts for you.  The Trust Board, again note the distinction between board and membership, were in possession of this information last summer 2020.  It wasn't only shared with the membership/wider fanbase this summer 2021 and when I say shared I mean we were told about it not shown any actual evidence.  Is that ok, comfortable with that?  If it's so damning why wait nearly a year and even then they only told you about it because people had become aware of it's existence.

As the Trust have stated DB hasn't sued them despite having a string of law firms so they should be perfectly comfortable with producing all the evidence and explaining how/where they got it from.

Apparently in summer 2020 they were so concerned about the information they wrote to KT to challenge him about it.  Discussions took place via letter and meetings where it was discussed.  Do you know what was said?  Nope neither do I or anyone else other than the Trust Board and the club.  WE ONLY know this conversation even happened because KT released a copy of the letter he wrote to the Trust Board in response to their concerns.   Again you comfortable with that?  Open, honest, transparent?

Coincidently that summer 2020 someone was hawking the evidence around local and national press.

You might ask if this evidence is so damning it should be shared with the relevant authorities be that Police, HMRC, Companies House, the football league and I'm sure there are potentially others.  Did this happen?  The trust wouldn't answer and said "The Trust is regulated by the Financial Conduct Authority and complies with its reporting obligations."  So is that a yes/no/maybe?  If it was reported to anyone what was the outcome?

So going back to when they challenged KT in the late summer of 2020.  The Trust have made their position clear.  They have grave concerns regarding the chinese deal and the financial transactions that took place.  They rightly have concerns that the club was sold without anyone telling them.  Basically they don't trust the owners as far as they could throw them.  So what did they do next?  Tell it's membership, provide evidence of the wrong doings.....nope get this and this is simply bizarre and frankly unbelievable.  Just weeks later...  

THEY PUBLICLY RELEASED A JOINT STATEMENT WITH THE OWNERS AND BACKED THE EAST STAND DEVELOPMENT DEAL!!!!

You couldn't make this up.

And that's not even mentioning that this is the EXACT SAME DEAL/PLANS that are on the table TODAY!

And you wonder why I have questions?

Everyone happy with all that?  Is that what you expect from your representatives?  If it is well you are in luck because that's what you have.

And I'm the bad guy for challenging this and asking for much better from them.  As Deepcut said is it really expected that ordinary supporters should have to "pull" this information out of the Trust?

Finally to head of the usual supsects that are about to ignore everything I have written and say "Are happy that the club act this way or why don't you challenge the club".  No I'm not happy and I have challenged the club.  But think about how flawed that kind of thinking is.  You are essentially saying everything I have said above is ok because that's what the owners are like.

This might help.

The Trust Board doesn't "possess" the evidence of the 100% sale of the club to 5U so we can't share it.  However, we have seen it.  I have seen it.  The sale happened.  There was a stage during which I held very similar views to you - if I couldn't see the evidence, I couldn't believe that it happened.  So I understand your view.  If you need to see the evidence, your view will have to remain the same at least for now.  But the Trust has not been challenged by the owners about this fact.

Support for the deal was based on the lack of any other potential way forward for the club, and an understanding that more detail on benefits for NTFC longer-term would be forthcoming as the plans progressed.  In the absence of any further information being forthcoming, either proactively or in response to repeated questions, support had to be withdrawn.

I can see how it looks, it is indeed the same deal, but the fact that it has remained the same is a cause for concern.

[guest3359]

This might help.

The Trust Board doesn't "possess" the evidence of the 100% sale of the club to 5U so we can't share it.  However, we have seen it.  I have seen it.  The sale happened.  There was a stage during which I held very similar views to you - if I couldn't see the evidence, I couldn't believe that it happened.  So I understand your view.  If you need to see the evidence, your view will have to remain the same at least for now.  But the Trust has not been challenged by the owners about this fact.

Support for the deal was based on the lack of any other potential way forward for the club, and an understanding that more detail on benefits for NTFC longer-term would be forthcoming as the plans progressed.  In the absence of any further information being forthcoming, either proactively or in response to repeated questions, support had to be withdrawn.

I can see how it looks, it is indeed the same deal, but the fact that it has remained the same is a cause for concern.

Keith
I dont doubt the club was sold. What I dont know is how much the owners pocketed. I find it almost impossible to believe that they kept / banked anywhere close to the ~£6m is reported they sold the club for. Do the Trust have visibility of all the associated costs / transactions and what the net profit was?
This is along the lines of an email I have sent via the Trust website

[Manwork04]

Keith
I dont doubt the club was sold. What I dont know is how much the owners pocketed. I find it almost impossible to believe that they kept / banked anywhere close to the ~£6m is reported they sold the club for. Do the Trust have visibility of all the associated costs / transactions and what the net profit was?
This is along the lines of an email I have sent via the Trust website

Why don’t you email Kelvin Thomas?
I bet he knows.

[Another Pedj]

As I’ve said before, I’m not professionally involved with the trust board.

Oh,so you mean you are unprofessionally involved.

[Another Pedj]

Why don’t you email Kelvin Thomas?
I bet he knows.

I thought it was you who said contact the Trust. They have the proof.

[guest3359]

As I’ve said before, I’m not professionally involved with the trust board.

You strike me as a guy with a sense of humour...
When you have a spare 2 mins i'd encourage you to watch this from 3:25

[Deepcut Cobbler]

This might help.

The Trust Board doesn't "possess" the evidence of the 100% sale of the club to 5U so we can't share it.  However, we have seen it.  I have seen it.  The sale happened.  There was a stage during which I held very similar views to you - if I couldn't see the evidence, I couldn't believe that it happened.  So I understand your view.  If you need to see the evidence, your view will have to remain the same at least for now.  But the Trust has not been challenged by the owners about this fact.

Support for the deal was based on the lack of any other potential way forward for the club, and an understanding that more detail on benefits for NTFC longer-term would be forthcoming as the plans progressed.  In the absence of any further information being forthcoming, either proactively or in response to repeated questions, support had to be withdrawn.

I can see how it looks, it is indeed the same deal, but the fact that it has remained the same is a cause for concern.

Got that, but an individual on here keeps stating/indicating that DB/KT pocketed the £6m, you state that you know/confirm that the sale was made and I believe that that was widely reported?

Were the funds actually transferred or was the subsequent 'spending' done on the back of a promise?
Do you know what went on afterwards when it didn't go further?

How much of the £6m was returned/refunded (if at all) when the deal/takeover didn't come to the expected full fruition?
The lack of currently available evidence to say that it was or wasn't, isn't necessarily evidence that any of it wasn't.

[KeithB]

Keith
I dont doubt the club was sold. What I dont know is how much the owners pocketed. I find it almost impossible to believe that they kept / banked anywhere close to the ~£6m is reported they sold the club for. Do the Trust have visibility of all the associated costs / transactions and what the net profit was?
This is along the lines of an email I have sent via the Trust website

I have only seen evidence of the sale of their shares for £6.68m.

I would have thought that had there been significant costs reducing what the owners ultimately received they might have wanted to publicise it.  They are quite within their rights to retain proceeds of the sale of personal shareholdings, but when the club is in debt to them for a very similar amount it's not the best look and if I were in that situation I would want to set the record straight.

[MCHammer]

This might help.

The Trust Board doesn't "possess" the evidence of the 100% sale of the club to 5U so we can't share it.  However, we have seen it.  I have seen it.  The sale happened.  There was a stage during which I held very similar views to you - if I couldn't see the evidence, I couldn't believe that it happened.  So I understand your view.  If you need to see the evidence, your view will have to remain the same at least for now.  But the Trust has not been challenged by the owners about this fact.

Support for the deal was based on the lack of any other potential way forward for the club, and an understanding that more detail on benefits for NTFC longer-term would be forthcoming as the plans progressed.  In the absence of any further information being forthcoming, either proactively or in response to repeated questions, support had to be withdrawn.

I can see how it looks, it is indeed the same deal, but the fact that it has remained the same is a cause for concern.

I appreciate the reply.

But as I said previously what gives you the right to see the evidence and not the members/supporters you represent?  Is the only way to obtain the full information to join the board.  What a strange way for a supporters representative organisation to conduct itself.

So while you don't posess the "evidence" having seen it personally you can at least answer some further questions regarding it.  What actually physically is the evidence and what does it exactly show?  Who obtained this information and how did they obtain it?  Why is the person in possession of this information seemingly only willing to share it with The Trust Board and not the supporters?  How do you know the person supplying the evidence has given you the COMPLETE picture.

In fact DM me the persons details and I'll ask them for a copy myself.  Or you can contact them and ask them to release the information.

As you state if the owners haven't challenged the Trust and if everything is legal and stands up to scrutiny then there clearly is no reason for all of this not to be in the public domain for everyone to make their own minds up.

We also know that KT did dispute some of the "FACTS" as he released a letter to the Trust where he did so.  We also know the Trust had meetings and correspondence with him.  So what was said by the Trust in these discussions?

So the Trust Board were able to decide to back the deal very publicly despite everything you have said and knew about the chinese deal, all the massive concerns about the owners and their broken promises, the lack of detail, the fear that the club would be left with nothing because "it was the only potential way forward".  It clearly wasn't the only way as you have demonstrated by withdrawing the backing.  You didn't have to back it in the first place and I find it incredulous that you did based on the evidence you claim to have for not supporting it.

[BackOfTheNet]

I have only seen evidence of the sale of their shares for £6.68m.

I would have thought that had there been significant costs reducing what the owners ultimately received they might have wanted to publicise it.  They are quite within their rights to retain proceeds of the sale of personal shareholdings, but when the club is in debt to them for a very similar amount it's not the best look and if I were in that situation I would want to set the record straight.

So, if I'm reading this correctly, essentially you've seen evidence of the initial sale, but not of any subsequent transactions that may or may not have followed in the fallout from the breakdown of the deal?

By the way, can I just say that your contributions on here are much more open, honest and polite than we've become used to from some of your colleagues! It's nice to have a constructive debate with someone from the Trust without being talked down to our sworn at.

[KeithB]

I appreciate the reply.

But as I said previously what gives you the right to see the evidence and not the members/supporters you represent?  Is the only way to obtain the full information to join the board.  What a strange way for a supporters representative organisation to conduct itself.

So while you don't posess the "evidence" having seen it personally you can at least answer some further questions regarding it.  What actually physically is the evidence and what does it exactly show?  Who obtained this information and how did they obtain it?  Why is the person in possession of this information seemingly only willing to share it with The Trust Board and not the supporters?  How do you know the person supplying the evidence has given you the COMPLETE picture.

In fact DM me the persons details and I'll ask them for a copy myself.  Or you can contact them and ask them to release the information.

As you state if the owners haven't challenged the Trust and if everything is legal and stands up to scrutiny then there clearly is no reason for all of this not to be in the public domain for everyone to make their own minds up.

We also know that KT did dispute some of the "FACTS" as he released a letter to the Trust where he did so.  We also know the Trust had meetings and correspondence with him.  So what was said by the Trust in these discussions?

So the Trust Board were able to decide to back the deal very publicly despite everything you have said and knew about the chinese deal, all the massive concerns about the owners and their broken promises, the lack of detail, the fear that the club would be left with nothing because "it was the only potential way forward".  It clearly wasn't the only way as you have demonstrated by withdrawing the backing.  You didn't have to back it in the first place and I find it incredulous that you did based on the evidence you claim to have for not supporting it.

I can't do any of the things you're asking me to do, sorry.

The backing was subject to future clarity, the decision made with the information we had at the time and yes of course with all the concerns you highlight and we still had very much in mind.   Personally speaking, if I had to make the decision again I would not make the same one.  But I did feel (and still do) a need to help in any way I could the club's stagnation to end.  The fact that all the club has delivered since was the open day in June showing old pictures and giving no commitment to lasting benefit to the club, and nothing since, could not have been 100% foreseen but I guess the signs were there from the previous 6 years...