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Redevelopment Closer Than Ever?

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Author Topic: Redevelopment Closer Than Ever?  (Read 1342474 times)
guest168
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« Reply #29640 on: October 13, 2021, 11:18:06 am »

Hi Manny. I've kept myself out of this one for a while but this is a point I always feel compelled to challenge...

I won't go over the numbers again - we've done that to death - but I think most on here broadly accept that in a best-case scenario (from their point of view) our current owners are somewhere near break-even on their investment in NTFC to date. In the worst-case (in my view, more plausible) scenario, they are in a £6-7m hole. After the next set of accounts are published I'd expect both scenarios to look c.£1m worse. Either way, any money they 'take out' will be off the back of a substantial further investment in the ground that they will need fund themselves.

This is not me supporting the owners or bashing the Trust. I just think we ought to keep things factual, especially if your aim is to take people with you.

Hi Parrot, may I ask nicely why you say about keeping things factual but have said, I assume, that you don't believe the Chinese money happened.

Trouble is that as unbelievable as it is, it did happen.

The Chinese money and deal did go ahead, payments were made and received. Yes to me it doesn't make sense and I assume (as you say it's not plausible that it did) neither do you, which draws a conclusion of some sort of dodgy deal.

Having said that, deals that don't make sense to happen every day.

Why would someone, with no business history, suddenly pay £6.68m for a business that the owners had paid £1 and £166k debt for 2 years earlier. Yes there was some other investment but only £1m or so. On top of that, part of the deal is you agree to put in further funds. This bit didn't happen, so they agree a £1m loan to the business with the sellers.

This questionable very term loan was to be paid back in a few weeks otherwise you default and lose all your shares in that business. (as it was put up as security)

Totally agree with you that it's more plausible that it didn't happen. BUT IT DID !!!
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guest168
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« Reply #29641 on: October 13, 2021, 11:35:02 am »

Wind your neck in.

Itís the trust who keep bringing up the £10,000 fiasco
Iím just responding to the fact that the trust keep mentioning it.
You can go back through threads to confirm that the trust keep bringing the situation up if you wish.

Weíre you on the trust board at the time?
If not how would you have any idea of timescales??

As for not having time to do thingsÖ
This is a usual response from the trust at every twist and turn.

It would take five minutes flat to draw up a legal document stating whether money is gifted or lent.
That isnít legal eagle stuff!!
Was no one on the board at the time intelligent enough to realise that this clarity was needed??
They should have been given what the club had just been through.

In the same way the trust point out that the club havenít delivered on their £4m redevelopment promise (was that ever in writing?) and constantly bring up the perceived failings of the clubs owners and keep banging on about unanswered questions , all I am doing is highlighting that the trust are acting in the same way.
Six years on no one has explained what actually went on with the 10k and what protocols were followed.

The trust seem very good at scrutinising others but are unable to answer extremely simple questions when faced with them themselves.

Are you suggesting from a position from within the trust that the 10k was given to the club on no more than a verbal agreement as that is what you seem to be insinuating with your pushed for time theory.

If not and you were not on the trust board at the time and therefore wouldnít actually know any more than other posters would someone from the trust please step up and answer the question once and for all (preferably someone who was making the decisions at the time however uncomfortable that may be).

Once that has been put to bed the trust will be in a better position to scrutinise the redevelopment or the Chinese investment or fan ownership or whatever scheme they think of next.

Tidy up your own desk and explain what actually occurred regards the 10k , who were the trust board members who decided to pass the money on and what protocols were in place.



Thankyou.

Yes the £4m was in writing and they actually proved available funds of £11m

The £10k was actually me bringing this up and was to be more of a reflection of KT not the Trust. They acted in good faith to keep the club going, some of the £10k was paid to Country Lion so we could fulfil 2 away fixtures. (think it was included in the 10, not in addition to)

Like you, I did feel the Trust should have been stronger in chasing but they did have an understanding with KT that it would go into a project. But nothing further happened.

You wrath should be on KT for not contributing but he claims he didn't agree (think Whiting did I his behalf ?)

Very easy to sit back 6 years later after the storm has died down to say you should have done this, that and the other. Again the Trust was busy trying to ensure the club survived that was the goal.

They got the council to agree to write off the £10m which then mean KT was willing to take-over for £1

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« Reply #29642 on: October 13, 2021, 11:50:36 am »

[quote author=Shoemaker link=topic=5547.msg449003#msg449003 date=1634113716

Itís the trust who keep bringing up the £10,000 fiasco
Iím just responding to the fact that the trust keep mentioning it.
You can go back through threads to confirm that the trust keep bringing the situation up if you wish.

It would take five minutes flat to draw up a legal document stating whether money is gifted or lent.
That isnít legal eagle stuff!!
Was no one on the board at the time intelligent enough to realise that this clarity was needed??
They should have been given what the club had just been through.

In the same way the trust point out that the club havenít delivered on their £4m redevelopment promise (was that ever in writing?) and constantly bring up the perceived failings of the clubs owners and keep banging on about unanswered questions , all I am doing is highlighting that the trust are acting in the same way.
Six years on no one has explained what actually went on with the 10k and what protocols were followed.

If not and you were not on the trust board at the time and therefore wouldnít actually know any more than other posters would someone from the trust please step up and answer the question once and for all (preferably someone who was making the decisions at the time however uncomfortable that may be).

Once that has been put to bed the trust will be in a better position to scrutinise the redevelopment or the Chinese investment or fan ownership or whatever scheme they think of next.

Tidy up your own desk and explain what actually occurred regards the 10k , who were the trust board members who decided to pass the money on and what protocols were in place.
.
[/quote]
  This is 100% factual about what happen.
Your first point, please show me where the Trust have bought up the £10K recently, the only person going on about it is you.
There was an agreement drawn up and signed by James Whiting on behalf of NTFC, and some of the people on the Trust board at that time were and still are a lot more intelligent than you.
The £4M development agreement was between NBC and KT/DB, the Trust only brokered the deal.
KT initially denied that the £10 was his debt, saying it was DC's debt, but changed his view after being told the details by JW. The Trust were, eventually, asked if they would be happy with the £10K being spent on supporters facilities to which they agreed. After a while NTFC said that they wanted a large marque behind the North and asked for more cash. The Trust were not happy about the security situation of a marque at the bottom of the hill, being open to having anything lobbed down on it and also the fact that nothing of value could be left in the marque, so declined the offer of putting £10K into something that would, probably, been damaged beyond repair inside the first year. That was the last time it was mentioned by NTFC. The money for the team coach to Crawley was not taken from the £10K loan, it was a separate "donation" from the Trust.
    The Trust board had total agreement to loan the club the £10K as we were told by JW that quite a few key members of staff would leaving if they didn't get paid and it would be difficult to run the club without these staff members
    For the majority of people on here, you will have read this time and time again, but Shoemakers selective memory seems to have skipped it.

 
« Last Edit: October 13, 2021, 11:59:46 am by Carton Lid » Report Spam   Logged
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« Reply #29643 on: October 13, 2021, 12:30:55 pm »

[quote author=Shoemaker link=topic=5547.msg449003#msg449003 date=1634113716

Itís the trust who keep bringing up the £10,000 fiasco
Iím just responding to the fact that the trust keep mentioning it.
You can go back through threads to confirm that the trust keep bringing the situation up if you wish.

It would take five minutes flat to draw up a legal document stating whether money is gifted or lent.
That isnít legal eagle stuff!!
Was no one on the board at the time intelligent enough to realise that this clarity was needed??
They should have been given what the club had just been through.

In the same way the trust point out that the club havenít delivered on their £4m redevelopment promise (was that ever in writing?) and constantly bring up the perceived failings of the clubs owners and keep banging on about unanswered questions , all I am doing is highlighting that the trust are acting in the same way.
Six years on no one has explained what actually went on with the 10k and what protocols were followed.

If not and you were not on the trust board at the time and therefore wouldnít actually know any more than other posters would someone from the trust please step up and answer the question once and for all (preferably someone who was making the decisions at the time however uncomfortable that may be).

Once that has been put to bed the trust will be in a better position to scrutinise the redevelopment or the Chinese investment or fan ownership or whatever scheme they think of next.

Tidy up your own desk and explain what actually occurred regards the 10k , who were the trust board members who decided to pass the money on and what protocols were in place.
.

  This is 100% factual about what happen.
Your first point, please show me where the Trust have bought up the £10K recently, the only person going on about it is you.
There was an agreement drawn up and signed by James Whiting on behalf of NTFC, and some of the people on the Trust board at that time were and still are a lot more intelligent than you.
The £4M development agreement was between NBC and KT/DB, the Trust only brokered the deal.
KT initially denied that the £10 was his debt, saying it was DC's debt, but changed his view after being told the details by JW. The Trust were, eventually, asked if they would be happy with the £10K being spent on supporters facilities to which they agreed. After a while NTFC said that they wanted a large marque behind the North and asked for more cash. The Trust were not happy about the security situation of a marque at the bottom of the hill, being open to having anything lobbed down on it and also the fact that nothing of value could be left in the marque, so declined the offer of putting £10K into something that would, probably, been damaged beyond repair inside the first year. That was the last time it was mentioned by NTFC. The money for the team coach to Crawley was not taken from the £10K loan, it was a separate "donation" from the Trust.
    The Trust board had total agreement to loan the club the £10K as we were told by JW that quite a few key members of staff would leaving if they didn't get paid and it would be difficult to run the club without these staff members Shocked
    For the majority of people on here, you will have read this time and time again, but Shoemakers selective memory seems to have skipped it.

 
Lovely roger

First point
Show me where the trust have bought up the issue of 10k

Ok roger perhaps read the post above where random whoever he is (apparently something to do with the trust) admits he is responsible for raising the issue  Shocked


Is that factual enough for you ??

Apology on the way I assume??

Secondly youíve done everything but answer my question.
Were you on the board at the time and were any protocols put in place regarding the 10k or was it a case of Theres your ten grand perhaps,maybe , sometime youíd like to consider giving us it back old chap.

Once again is anyone from the trust actually going to show me the courtesy of answering that question

Iím aware of the reasons it was decided to pay it but that is clearly not the question I asked.

Something like Ďno we gave the 10k to the board without anything in writing and naively  believed in a verbal agreement
Or
We put several legal parameters in writing before handing over the money which stipulated it must be returned to the trust at a further dateÖ.

There you go Iím even trying to help you with some answers there ,seems as the trust find it so hard

Once again please answer the question so we can finally find out how the issue was dealt with.

It wasnít your money it was trust MEMBERS money and as MEMBERS they have the right to an honest answer.

Thankyou.
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« Reply #29644 on: October 13, 2021, 12:31:46 pm »

Carton Lid, to be fair to Shoemaker, Random, on his own admission, in the post above yours brings up the subject of the £10,000, it seems his version of events differs to yours. My understanding is he is a Board member ? Also he constantly keeps bringing up the subject of the "Chinese Money" what he hopes to achieve by this I don't know, maybe as he is a board member you should be directing your questions at him, not Shoemaker.
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« Reply #29645 on: October 13, 2021, 12:40:13 pm »

Carton Lid, to be fair to Shoemaker, Random, on his own admission, in the post above yours brings up the subject of the £10,000, it seems his version of events differs to yours. My understanding is he is a Board member ? Also he constantly keeps bringing up the subject of the "Chinese Money" what he hopes to achieve by this I don't know, maybe as he is a board member you should be directing your questions at him, not Shoemaker.
Thanks tcobb

Itís interesting that the trust board members canít even agree on the same version of events  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #29646 on: October 13, 2021, 12:50:20 pm »

I find it interesting that according to roger (I believe other posters have mentioned that carton is indeed roger of the trust and accept my apologies if Iíve got the wrong end of the stick)Öas you rather insultingly say Ö.the trust members are far more intelligent than meÖ. thatís yet to be proven , suffice to say I personally have never given anyone £10,000 on the back of a verbal agreement and then mentioned it six years laterÖ

James whiting drew something upÖ
Was it regards the 10k
If so it would be interesting to see it.

It would be even more interesting if random who keeps raising these various issues could view it as then the trust could explain why if it is holding a legal document that says the club agree to repay the 10k that was apparently according to roger signed by JW there should be no trouble in repaying the 10k back to the trust , the cause that board member random is currently championing.

It would appear that roger and random are not on the same page , which would be worrying if one or either is actually on the trust boardÖ.
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« Reply #29647 on: October 13, 2021, 13:09:13 pm »

Steve, time to put away the fishing gear. 
As has been pointed out hundreds of times, when the Trust put something out it goes on their web page, when people like GPC and Random post on here they are posting as individuals, unless, as GPC always puts "Trust hat on here". I post my thoughts as an individual as I am not on the Trust board. I do try and help when people, like yourself, post incorrect "facts".
    I'll spell it out for you for the last time, the £10K was loaned to NTFC after a request from James Whiting, to prevent losing key staff members. We could have said, "Sorry James, we'll have to put this out to the members, it will take 2 to 3 weeks" or even "OK James we are going to employ a lawyer to draw up this agreement, this will probably take a week". So James, you better let those key members of the staff go, you can always go down the jobcentre in a couple of weeks to fill the vacancies, if we still have a club. Can you imagine the stick we would have got if we went down either of these avenues ? If NTFC didn't have a full staff there could have been grave consequences with the Football League putting the future of NTFC in doubt.
         The Trust board took the decision, that in the best interests of NTFC in the future, to loan the money. JW acknowledged this by signing an agreement on behalf of NTFC, the loan was due to be repaid when the takeover was completed. I have explained why this didn't happen.
      So there you go, I've answered your question again, if I was you Steve, I'd stick to horse racing, your sh*t at fishing  Wink
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« Reply #29648 on: October 13, 2021, 13:16:44 pm »

  Cheesy
Would one of the wealthier posters amongst us please deposit 10k into his account in order to shut him up, he clearly takes this way to personally.

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« Reply #29649 on: October 13, 2021, 13:17:44 pm »

Hi Parrot, may I ask nicely why you say about keeping things factual but have said, I assume, that you don't believe the Chinese money happened.

Trouble is that as unbelievable as it is, it did happen.

The Chinese money and deal did go ahead, payments were made and received. Yes to me it doesn't make sense and I assume (as you say it's not plausible that it did) neither do you, which draws a conclusion of some sort of dodgy deal.

Having said that, deals that don't make sense to happen every day.

Why would someone, with no business history, suddenly pay £6.68m for a business that the owners had paid £1 and £166k debt for 2 years earlier. Yes there was some other investment but only £1m or so. On top of that, part of the deal is you agree to put in further funds. This bit didn't happen, so they agree a £1m loan to the business with the sellers.

This questionable very term loan was to be paid back in a few weeks otherwise you default and lose all your shares in that business. (as it was put up as security)

Totally agree with you that it's more plausible that it didn't happen. BUT IT DID !!!


I'm struggling to follow a bit mate but think I get the gist of your response.

My point about keeping things factual still stands. I expressed an opinion in my post and made it clear that's what it was. I did that because I don't have any way of proving, or indeed knowing for sure, what I suspect happened. You've gone beyond opinion into conjecture, and presented something as fact which time and time again you've failed to back up.

Show me something that will convince me you're right and my best guess is wrong. I know I'm banging the same old drum mate but it really is the only way to take anyone half-sensible with you.


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« Reply #29650 on: October 13, 2021, 13:24:19 pm »


    I'll spell it out for you for the last time, the £10K was loaned to NTFC after a request from James Whiting, to prevent losing key staff members. We could have said, "Sorry James, we'll have to put this out to the members, it will take 2 to 3 weeks" or even "OK James we are going to employ a lawyer to draw up this agreement, this will probably take a week". So James, you better let those key members of the staff go, you can always go down the jobcentre in a couple of weeks to fill the vacancies, if we still have a club. Can you imagine the stick we would have got if we went down either of these avenues ? If NTFC didn't have a full staff there could have been grave consequences with the Football League putting the future of NTFC in doubt.

Isn't it more likely that JW would have told the staff that the money was coming and asked them to 'please, please hold on for a week more' and they more than likely would have begrudgingly accepted?

Sorry I know it sounds pedantic, but feels to me like dressing low-level recklessness up as heroism.
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« Reply #29651 on: October 13, 2021, 13:28:52 pm »

Isn't it more likely that JW would have told the staff that the money was coming and asked them to 'please, please hold on for a week more' and they more than likely would have begrudgingly accepted?

Sorry I know it sounds pedantic, but feels to me like dressing low-level recklessness up as heroism.
I know this is conjecture but I dare say DC had also been using that line for sometime.
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« Reply #29652 on: October 13, 2021, 13:45:28 pm »

The Trust absolutely did the right thing by lending / giving the club the money.
If as Carton says above that KT has accepted its his liability, and the Trust agreed for it to be spent on the Supporter Facilities then it needs to be agreed what to spend it on (put it behind the bar at the last home game  Wink). So the question of repaying £10k in cash is irrelevant.
If KT hasnt acknowledged this, and the agreement with JW was prior to the take over and didn't form part of the take over then it would appear that the anger of some is directed in the wrong direction (although personally think JW has done a great job over the years and in very difficult circumstance) and the Trust need to mark it off as a great thing they did and draw a line under it an move on. All IMVHO of course.
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« Reply #29653 on: October 13, 2021, 13:48:44 pm »

The Trust absolutely did the right thing by lending / giving the club the money.
If as Carton says above that KT has accepted its his liability, and the Trust agreed for it to be spent on the Supporter Facilities then it needs to be agreed what to spend it on (put it behind the bar at the last home game  Wink). So the question of repaying £10k in cash is irrelevant.
If KT hasnt acknowledged this, and the agreement with JW was prior to the take over and didn't form part of the take over then it would appear that the anger of some is directed in the wrong direction (although personally think JW has done a great job over the years and in very difficult circumstance) and the Trust need to mark it off as a great thing they did and draw a line under it an move on. All IMVHO of course.
I think I've read that they have (marked it off). Some time ago in fact.
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« Reply #29654 on: October 13, 2021, 13:51:29 pm »

I think I've read that they have (marked it off). Some time ago in fact.

If they have can we all agree to do the same  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #29655 on: October 13, 2021, 13:56:55 pm »

I'm struggling to follow a bit mate but think I get the gist of your response.

My point about keeping things factual still stands. I expressed an opinion in my post and made it clear that's what it was. I did that because I don't have any way of proving, or indeed knowing for sure, what I suspect happened. You've gone beyond opinion into conjecture, and presented something as fact which time and time again you've failed to back up.

Show me something that will convince me you're right and my best guess is wrong. I know I'm banging the same old drum mate but it really is the only way to take anyone half-sensible with you.




Thanks, yeah sorry was typing that on the go so wasn't very clear.

Which bit of the Chinese money do you not believe?

The presentation slide spelt it out, if it didn't happen, pretty sure it would be libel. KT has not mentioned one word about it, what more proof do you need?  We do have documentation but it's not for me on this forum to publish it.
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« Reply #29656 on: October 13, 2021, 14:02:38 pm »

Carton Lid, to be fair to Shoemaker, Random, on his own admission, in the post above yours brings up the subject of the £10,000, it seems his version of events differs to yours. My understanding is he is a Board member ? Also he constantly keeps bringing up the subject of the "Chinese Money" what he hopes to achieve by this I don't know, maybe as he is a board member you should be directing your questions at him, not Shoemaker.

It doesn't matter to me, both the £10k and the chinese money tell me all I need to know about KT & his intentions.

Just to clarify, I have only in the last 2 months or so become a board member, so was not a board member when posting about the 10k before

Roger was a board member at the TIME the loan was given and is NOT a board member now.

Pretty clear and pretty straight forward.

Tcobb, just to refocus - what position are we in the league, what league are we in? what is the value of our squad do you think? how much has been spent on stadium improvements in the last 6 years

Perhaps most importantly, in 3 years time what do you think the answers to those questions above would be?   

We can't change the past but we can certainly have an effect on the future
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« Reply #29657 on: October 13, 2021, 14:23:54 pm »

Isn't it more likely that JW would have told the staff that the money was coming and asked them to 'please, please hold on for a week more' and they more than likely would have begrudgingly accepted? It is not more likely that JW would have told them what you say, I was there so I know what happened and they had made their position 100% clear

Sorry I know it sounds pedantic, but feels to me like dressing low-level recklessness up as heroism. So you think we were wrong to loan the money to keep the staff in place and the club as a functioning unit ? Just as an afterthought, what would you have done ?
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« Reply #29658 on: October 13, 2021, 14:27:05 pm »

The presentation slide spelt it out, if it didn't happen, pretty sure it would be libel. KT has not mentioned one word about it, what more proof do you need?  We do have documentation but it's not for me on this forum to publish it.

That's not true.  He has addressed the issue several times in the press and we know from the "leaked" letter that he addressed it directly with the Trust Board, something which by the way the Trust failed and still fails to share with it's members despite many requests.  Hardly someone that has in your own words "not mentioned one word about it".  He also disputed the figures.

What documentation do you have and where was it obtained from?  That's surely an important factor because else you are just making a statement with no supporting evidence and telling me to just trust you.
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« Reply #29659 on: October 13, 2021, 15:32:37 pm »

Steve, time to put away the fishing gear. 
As has been pointed out hundreds of times, when the Trust put something out it goes on their web page, when people like GPC and Random post on here they are posting as individuals, unless, as GPC always puts "Trust hat on here". I post my thoughts as an individual as I am not on the Trust board. I do try and help when people, like yourself, post incorrect "facts".
    I'll spell it out for you for the last time, the £10K was loaned to NTFC after a request from James Whiting, to prevent losing key staff members. We could have said, "Sorry James, we'll have to put this out to the members, it will take 2 to 3 weeks" or even "OK James we are going to employ a lawyer to draw up this agreement, this will probably take a week". So James, you better let those key members of the staff go, you can always go down the jobcentre in a couple of weeks to fill the vacancies, if we still have a club. Can you imagine the stick we would have got if we went down either of these avenues ? If NTFC didn't have a full staff there could have been grave consequences with the Football League putting the future of NTFC in doubt.
         The Trust board took the decision, that in the best interests of NTFC in the future, to loan the money. JW acknowledged this by signing an agreement on behalf of NTFC, the loan was due to be repaid when the takeover was completed. I have explained why this didn't happen.
      So there you go, I've answered your question again, if I was you Steve, I'd stick to horse racing, your sh*t at fishing  Wink
Thatís fair enough roger.

I still maintain though that if thereís legal documentation regards the 10k loan then it shouldnít have been an issue in the first place.
It could have been reclaimed in six days not six years.

See you next august  Wink
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