Redevelopment Closer Than Ever?

[MCHammer]

https://www.newhotelend.com/what-next

Very disappointed by this. Maybe my thoughts on what a fan led initiative is are different to other peoples.
Essentially all that has happened is they have made up some drawings, made up some scenarios and said over to you NTFC / Trust.
What happened to the further investigations that were mentioned? It didnt say anything about asking the club to run with it or even the Trust.
I appreciate its peoples times etc but to blame the club and the Trust for it being shelved isn't fair on either. If they had completed all the investigations and passed on something more than a back of an envelope concept then maybe.

This came with a very professional feel, a lot of fan fare with articles in the Chron and also from the club I think but essentially was no substance and not even slightly fan led.

Thanks for that.  Looks like some people owe me an apology.

"The New Hotel End was partly an attempt to build bridges between the club and the trust with a project with clear benefits that everyone could get behind.

Unfortunately the relationship between the club and the trust prevented this at the time of shelving."

[guest3359]

"The club’s insistence that this was a 100% fan-led scheme with little initial organisational and no funding support from NTFC relied solely on our will and that has been diminished to an extent,"

The Club were asked if they were willing to contribute the same amount that the Trust were....

I am aware. I also have no issues with the Club's position as this was supposed to be fan led. I also expected that it would be 100% crowd funded so therefore the Trust agreeing to contribute half is a massive plus from the Trust so they deserve recognition for that.
But not only did the NHE team want the club to fund it, they also expected the club to project manage it. So essentially the only thing that was fan led was the creation of the drawings and making a website. Nothing of any real substance.

[MCHammer]

"The club’s insistence that this was a 100% fan-led scheme with little initial organisational and no funding support from NTFC relied solely on our will and that has been diminished to an extent,"

The Club were asked if they were willing to contribute the same amount that the Trust were....

Are you serious?  You read that statement and that's your takeaway from it.

As Woody so eloquently put it a "fan led" project essentialy expected the club to pay for it all, deliver and manage it!  They even say the Trust should have taken it on as well!  Was this how the project was sold to the Trust when they were approached to back it?  Perhaps Keith can answer?

Absolutely the Trust deserves some credit for it's willingness to financially back it.  If I was the Supporters Trust I'd be counting my lucky stars I hadn't written the £900 cheque, which for an organisation that turnovers roughly £10k a year, is a significant sum.

P.S. why cut the quote off at the comma and not reference the whole sentence as it reads quite differently with the rest added?

[random]

I am aware. I also have no issues with the Club's position as this was supposed to be fan led. I also expected that it would be 100% crowd funded so therefore the Trust agreeing to contribute half is a massive plus from the Trust so they deserve recognition for that.
But not only did the NHE team want the club to fund it, they also expected the club to project manage it. So essentially the only thing that was fan led was the creation of the drawings and making a website. Nothing of any real substance.

so are you guys totally happen and content that after 6 years of nothing, a fan puts forward an idea to provide better facilities, the club no not interested but if you want to do everything go ahead, basically not one piece of support for the venture from the club and owners

AND YOU ARE ALL FINE WITH THAT?

Please remind me of one club led initiative please

It is telling that all the anti-fan, anti Trust posters are all suddenly posting.

BTW:  You can't take any of the link seriously as it was only a statement and showed no evidence or proof. I must see it in writing, or a video or at least audio recording as you can't prove that the Trust were prepared to get involved and the club not. Where is the evidence?

[random]

Are you serious?  You read that statement and that's your takeaway from it.

As Woody so eloquently put it a "fan led" project essentialy expected the club to pay for it all, deliver and manage it!  They even say the Trust should have taken it on as well!  Was this how the project was sold to the Trust when they were approached to back it?  Perhaps Keith can answer?

Absolutely the Trust deserves some credit for it's willingness to financially back it.  If I was the Supporters Trust I'd be counting my lucky stars I hadn't written the £900 cheque, which for an organisation that turnovers roughly £10k a year, is a significant sum.

P.S. why cut the quote off at the comma and not reference the whole sentence as it reads quite differently with the rest added?

Just ignore it Hammer, it's just a statement, no actual evidence provided.

[random]

is anyone going the club's AGM tomorrow?

Could they ask a question for me

Thanks

[guest3359]

so are you guys totally happen and content that after 6 years of nothing, a fan puts forward an idea to provide better facilities, the club no not interested but if you want to do everything go ahead, basically not one piece of support for the venture from the club and owners

AND YOU ARE ALL FINE WITH THAT?

Please remind me of one club led initiative please

It is telling that all the anti-fan, anti Trust posters are all suddenly posting.

BTW:  You can't take any of the link seriously as it was only a statement and showed no evidence or proof. I must see it in writing, or a video or at least audio recording as you can't prove that the Trust were prepared to get involved and the club not. Where is the evidence?

Seriously Random, get a new line or something else to hide behind.
I was excited because as a fan I finally had something to get behind. A group of people had stopped pointing at everyone else and seized the initiative to develop an exciting concept. The plans that they created trod the line between achievable and excessive but id rather they shoot for the stars, and then through the due diligence they mentioned, hit the moon.
We've all been shown what has happened at other clubs where fans have led the initiative and funded fan villages etc and how we are missing out on that. I thought we finally had that, and I have said on several occasions I would have contributed.
But we didn't, it was essentially a school project to design a stand and stage that they expected someone else to do for them. We can all put forward ideas, I have even emailed KT with a couple of suggestions.
So essentially where we are is no club led initiative and no fan led initiative. But something else to 'attack' both the club and the Trust. Thats why its annoyed me so much

[MCHammer]

Look at it another way, say you needed a conservatory on your house and it was going to cost £20K, a friend said he'll build it for you if you get the drawings done, which will cost £200, why would you turn him down ? You are getting your property improved at virtually no cost to you and added value for when you sell the property.

So it turns out your mate wanted you to pay for the drawings, buy all the materials and build it yourself.

[Manwork04]

If it's not for the public domain, then it's a waste of time an ordinary member asking for it?
How do you know that 'most aren't interested'?  I haven't asked for it, but if it was made available, I'd have a look to see if I could decipher it in order to make my own judgement.
So, the 'evidence' that The Trust Board is using, in an attempt to persuade us, isn't available for perusal or public consumption?

What happened to the £6m 'Chinese Money' that allegedly disappeared from the records?
Was it a legal or non-legal activity? If non-legal, is it being pursued by anyone?

Answers that include the terms (or similar to) "we believe/we assume/in our opinion/we know/from our limited knowledge/they haven't challenged us" etc... are not the answers that I am looking for.

I know most aren’t interested because some have actually posted that on this forum.
The £6m never disappeared at all the the Trust have the evidence.

[guest3359]

I know most aren’t interested because some have actually posted that on this forum.
The £6m never disappeared at all the the Trust have the evidence.

I have requested it and look forward to seeing it. Have you seen it Manwork?

[Deepcut Cobbler]

I know most aren’t interested because some have actually posted that on this forum.
The £6m never disappeared at all the the Trust have the evidence.

That's the sticker then isn't it?
'Most' alongside 'Some' on this forum doesn't equate to a majority of the membership.

[Manwork04]

I have requested it and look forward to seeing it. Have you seen it Manwork?

As I’ve said before, I’m not professionally involved with the trust board.

[Manwork04]

That's the sticker then isn't it?
'Most' alongside 'Some' on this forum doesn't equate to a majority of the membership.

Which is the greater most or some?

[guest3359]

As I’ve said before, I’m not professionally involved with the trust board.

So for clarity, thats a no

[Deepcut Cobbler]

Which is the greater most or some?

On this forum, most, however that doesn't take into account the other 600+ Trust members. 

[KeithB]

I did ask them.  Many times.  The most recent being yesterday!  Do you know what they said?  You should do because I posted it on here several months ago.  "The Trust Board is satisfied that the evidence of the payments in the amounts stated is accurate."  That's it.  Is that a good enough answer?

And you think the club are bad at answering questions.

Here's some facts for you.  The Trust Board, again note the distinction between board and membership, were in possession of this information last summer 2020.  It wasn't only shared with the membership/wider fanbase this summer 2021 and when I say shared I mean we were told about it not shown any actual evidence.  Is that ok, comfortable with that?  If it's so damning why wait nearly a year and even then they only told you about it because people had become aware of it's existence.

As the Trust have stated DB hasn't sued them despite having a string of law firms so they should be perfectly comfortable with producing all the evidence and explaining how/where they got it from.

Apparently in summer 2020 they were so concerned about the information they wrote to KT to challenge him about it.  Discussions took place via letter and meetings where it was discussed.  Do you know what was said?  Nope neither do I or anyone else other than the Trust Board and the club.  WE ONLY know this conversation even happened because KT released a copy of the letter he wrote to the Trust Board in response to their concerns.   Again you comfortable with that?  Open, honest, transparent?

Coincidently that summer 2020 someone was hawking the evidence around local and national press.

You might ask if this evidence is so damning it should be shared with the relevant authorities be that Police, HMRC, Companies House, the football league and I'm sure there are potentially others.  Did this happen?  The trust wouldn't answer and said "The Trust is regulated by the Financial Conduct Authority and complies with its reporting obligations."  So is that a yes/no/maybe?  If it was reported to anyone what was the outcome?

So going back to when they challenged KT in the late summer of 2020.  The Trust have made their position clear.  They have grave concerns regarding the chinese deal and the financial transactions that took place.  They rightly have concerns that the club was sold without anyone telling them.  Basically they don't trust the owners as far as they could throw them.  So what did they do next?  Tell it's membership, provide evidence of the wrong doings.....nope get this and this is simply bizarre and frankly unbelievable.  Just weeks later...  

THEY PUBLICLY RELEASED A JOINT STATEMENT WITH THE OWNERS AND BACKED THE EAST STAND DEVELOPMENT DEAL!!!!

You couldn't make this up.

And that's not even mentioning that this is the EXACT SAME DEAL/PLANS that are on the table TODAY!

And you wonder why I have questions?

Everyone happy with all that?  Is that what you expect from your representatives?  If it is well you are in luck because that's what you have.

And I'm the bad guy for challenging this and asking for much better from them.  As Deepcut said is it really expected that ordinary supporters should have to "pull" this information out of the Trust?

Finally to head of the usual supsects that are about to ignore everything I have written and say "Are happy that the club act this way or why don't you challenge the club".  No I'm not happy and I have challenged the club.  But think about how flawed that kind of thinking is.  You are essentially saying everything I have said above is ok because that's what the owners are like.

This might help.

The Trust Board doesn't "possess" the evidence of the 100% sale of the club to 5U so we can't share it.  However, we have seen it.  I have seen it.  The sale happened.  There was a stage during which I held very similar views to you - if I couldn't see the evidence, I couldn't believe that it happened.  So I understand your view.  If you need to see the evidence, your view will have to remain the same at least for now.  But the Trust has not been challenged by the owners about this fact.

Support for the deal was based on the lack of any other potential way forward for the club, and an understanding that more detail on benefits for NTFC longer-term would be forthcoming as the plans progressed.  In the absence of any further information being forthcoming, either proactively or in response to repeated questions, support had to be withdrawn.

I can see how it looks, it is indeed the same deal, but the fact that it has remained the same is a cause for concern.

[guest3359]

This might help.

The Trust Board doesn't "possess" the evidence of the 100% sale of the club to 5U so we can't share it.  However, we have seen it.  I have seen it.  The sale happened.  There was a stage during which I held very similar views to you - if I couldn't see the evidence, I couldn't believe that it happened.  So I understand your view.  If you need to see the evidence, your view will have to remain the same at least for now.  But the Trust has not been challenged by the owners about this fact.

Support for the deal was based on the lack of any other potential way forward for the club, and an understanding that more detail on benefits for NTFC longer-term would be forthcoming as the plans progressed.  In the absence of any further information being forthcoming, either proactively or in response to repeated questions, support had to be withdrawn.

I can see how it looks, it is indeed the same deal, but the fact that it has remained the same is a cause for concern.

Keith
I dont doubt the club was sold. What I dont know is how much the owners pocketed. I find it almost impossible to believe that they kept / banked anywhere close to the ~£6m is reported they sold the club for. Do the Trust have visibility of all the associated costs / transactions and what the net profit was?
This is along the lines of an email I have sent via the Trust website

[Manwork04]

Keith
I dont doubt the club was sold. What I dont know is how much the owners pocketed. I find it almost impossible to believe that they kept / banked anywhere close to the ~£6m is reported they sold the club for. Do the Trust have visibility of all the associated costs / transactions and what the net profit was?
This is along the lines of an email I have sent via the Trust website

Why don’t you email Kelvin Thomas?
I bet he knows.

[Another Pedj]

As I’ve said before, I’m not professionally involved with the trust board.

Oh,so you mean you are unprofessionally involved.

[Another Pedj]

Why don’t you email Kelvin Thomas?
I bet he knows.

I thought it was you who said contact the Trust. They have the proof.