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Redevelopment Closer Than Ever?

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Author Topic: Redevelopment Closer Than Ever?  (Read 1342474 times)
KeithB
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« Reply #29720 on: October 14, 2021, 17:30:38 pm »

I appreciate the reply.

But as I said previously what gives you the right to see the evidence and not the members/supporters you represent?  Is the only way to obtain the full information to join the board.  What a strange way for a supporters representative organisation to conduct itself.

So while you don't posess the "evidence" having seen it personally you can at least answer some further questions regarding it.  What actually physically is the evidence and what does it exactly show?  Who obtained this information and how did they obtain it?  Why is the person in possession of this information seemingly only willing to share it with The Trust Board and not the supporters?  How do you know the person supplying the evidence has given you the COMPLETE picture.

In fact DM me the persons details and I'll ask them for a copy myself.  Or you can contact them and ask them to release the information.

As you state if the owners haven't challenged the Trust and if everything is legal and stands up to scrutiny then there clearly is no reason for all of this not to be in the public domain for everyone to make their own minds up.

We also know that KT did dispute some of the "FACTS" as he released a letter to the Trust where he did so.  We also know the Trust had meetings and correspondence with him.  So what was said by the Trust in these discussions?

So the Trust Board were able to decide to back the deal very publicly despite everything you have said and knew about the chinese deal, all the massive concerns about the owners and their broken promises, the lack of detail, the fear that the club would be left with nothing because "it was the only potential way forward".  It clearly wasn't the only way as you have demonstrated by withdrawing the backing.  You didn't have to back it in the first place and I find it incredulous that you did based on the evidence you claim to have for not supporting it.

I can't do any of the things you're asking me to do, sorry.

The backing was subject to future clarity, the decision made with the information we had at the time and yes of course with all the concerns you highlight and we still had very much in mind.   Personally speaking, if I had to make the decision again I would not make the same one.  But I did feel (and still do) a need to help in any way I could the club's stagnation to end.  The fact that all the club has delivered since was the open day in June showing old pictures and giving no commitment to lasting benefit to the club, and nothing since, could not have been 100% foreseen but I guess the signs were there from the previous 6 years...
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KeithB
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« Reply #29721 on: October 14, 2021, 17:44:36 pm »

So, if I'm reading this correctly, essentially you've seen evidence of the initial sale, but not of any subsequent transactions that may or may not have followed in the fallout from the breakdown of the deal?

By the way, can I just say that your contributions on here are much more open, honest and polite than we've become used to from some of your colleagues! It's nice to have a constructive debate with someone from the Trust without being talked down to our sworn at.

Correct.  It's unknown to all but those involved.  As I've previously said, if I had received £6.68m whilst my business but also a much-loved community asset that I claimed to be custodian of and wanted to improve became in debt to me for a similar amount, I would want to let people know if my net receipts were significantly lower than £6.68m. 

You're welcome.  I assume everyone on here wants the best for NTFC, I don't have a monopoly on that and I'm no more clever than anyone else.  If people have a problem with what we do and/or the way we do it, it's important to me to understand what and why, and also to gather ideas on how we might one day be able to help the club move forward.  This development situation has paralysed the club for most of the last 10 years and whilst the support seems very fragmented over the owners, the Trust and the best way forward, I've yet to speak with anyone who thinks the current situation is ideal.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2021, 17:46:54 pm by KeithB » Report Spam   Logged
Manwork04
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« Reply #29722 on: October 14, 2021, 18:20:50 pm »

I thought it was you who said contact the Trust. They have the proof.
They do.
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Manwork04
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« Reply #29723 on: October 14, 2021, 18:23:07 pm »

Oh,so you mean you are unprofessionally involved.

Perhaps this will help.
https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/503256/why-do-people-tend-to-use-negation-of-negative-statement
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Manwork04
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« Reply #29724 on: October 14, 2021, 18:27:45 pm »

You strike me as a guy with a sense of humour...
When you have a spare 2 mins i'd encourage you to watch this from 3:25



You strike me as someone who has been hurt or taken advantage of in the past?
Therapy is one popular approach for addressing trust issues. It can help people open up and get to the root of what could be causing their issue.
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« Reply #29725 on: October 14, 2021, 18:38:17 pm »

They do.
Have a read of Keithís replies
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Manwork04
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« Reply #29726 on: October 14, 2021, 18:58:30 pm »

They have proof of the transactions.
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« Reply #29727 on: October 14, 2021, 19:04:31 pm »

Keith
Would it be fair to say that its been proven the club was sold for ~£6.68m and anything outside of that is conjecture?
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Manwork04
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« Reply #29728 on: October 14, 2021, 19:06:00 pm »

Keith
Would it be fair to say that its been proven the club was sold for ~£6m and anything outside of that is conjecture?
Or you could ask the council, they have seen it as well.
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« Reply #29729 on: October 14, 2021, 19:16:02 pm »

Or you could ask the council, they have seen it as well.
Read the question. I didnít ask for detail about the sale. I believe that happened. I asked if everything else the Trust put in their statements / presentation is conjecture. Im not going to ask the council to clarify something the Trust said
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Manwork04
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« Reply #29730 on: October 14, 2021, 19:25:38 pm »

Read the question. I didnít ask for detail about the sale. I believe that happened. I asked if everything else the Trust put in their statements / presentation is conjecture. Im not going to ask the council to clarify something the Trust said
Do you think the council would take the Trusts word or would they want proof?
If it was made up by the Trust what do you think our owners would do?

Sometimes you need a bit of lateral thinking, read between the lines.
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« Reply #29731 on: October 14, 2021, 19:29:18 pm »

Do you think the council would take the Trusts word or would they want proof?
If it was made up by the Trust what do you think our owners would do?

Sometimes you need a bit of lateral thinking, read between the lines.
You correctly told me to ask the Trust my questions. I have done that via both their website and on here. How about you let them answer.
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SadOldGit
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« Reply #29732 on: October 14, 2021, 20:09:22 pm »

I am confused. Everybody seems to be treating this as a revelation. Didn't we know all along that they sold the club to the Chinese?
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singcobb
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« Reply #29733 on: October 14, 2021, 20:33:16 pm »

I am confused. Everybody seems to be treating this as a revelation. Didn't we know all along that they sold the club to the Chinese?

Yep and what a lot seem to have difficulty grasping is that they sold their shares, not the club's, council's trust's or anyone else's and any money they made from that deal is their business and no one else's.
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tcobb
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« Reply #29734 on: October 14, 2021, 20:45:07 pm »

But, in a bid to undermine the owners, people are pushing it as far as they can. Quite simple, if people , be it the Trust or anybody else, have proof of wrongdoing then they should inform the correct authorities. If they do not have proof, or they don't have minerals to inform authorities,  then its time for them to keep their months shut, keyboards closed, move on, because this witch hunt needs to be put to bed.
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MCHammer
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« Reply #29735 on: October 14, 2021, 20:58:45 pm »

I can't do any of the things you're asking me to do, sorry.

The backing was subject to future clarity, the decision made with the information we had at the time and yes of course with all the concerns you highlight and we still had very much in mind.   Personally speaking, if I had to make the decision again I would not make the same one.  But I did feel (and still do) a need to help in any way I could the club's stagnation to end.  The fact that all the club has delivered since was the open day in June showing old pictures and giving no commitment to lasting benefit to the club, and nothing since, could not have been 100% foreseen but I guess the signs were there from the previous 6 years...

I appreciate your honesty and I have no doubt in my mind you are doing what you believe is right.  One more question.  Why can't you do any of the things I'm asking?

I also have to be completely honest here.  You are clearly intelligent enough to understand the avoidance or lack of ability to provide the evidence or answer what are straight forward questions leaves me with bigger doubts than I had before regarding the validity and/or completeness of the claims.  I feel like members/fans are being treated like idiots and only being told what the Board feel we should know and being told it when they are either forced to or when they feel like doing so.  Who does that all sound like?  You can't have it both ways.  

Again being completely honest it makes me highly suspicious that there is something to hide and that makes me wonder why that would be?    

I'm sure we will eventually find out.  I hope the Trust Board are completely comfortable with their conduct directly or by association.

In a wider sense I think the Trust Board need to reflect on what people like myself are saying and really question whether this is the level of openess and honesty they should be delivering to it's members.  If a Trust Board Member can't answer questions from it's membership not because they don't know the answer but because they are not allowed to then I think it's clear that's a big problem for that organisation.    

In my opinion the Board has got itself so wrapped up in fighting the Owners they've forgotten that isn't their sole purpose for existence.  I also feel the Board would do well to remember that much like they claim of our owners they are simply custodians and the Supporters Trust belongs to it's members and the fans of NTFC.
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MCHammer
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« Reply #29736 on: October 14, 2021, 21:04:37 pm »

Do you think the council would take the Trusts word or would they want proof?

Good point.  So the supporters are supposed to take the Trusts word and not require proof?
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KeithB
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« Reply #29737 on: October 14, 2021, 21:17:39 pm »

I appreciate your honesty and I have no doubt in my mind you are doing what you believe is right.  One more question.  Why can't you do any of the things I'm asking?

I also have to be completely honest here.  You are clearly intelligent enough to understand the avoidance or lack of ability to provide the evidence or answer what are straight forward questions leaves me with bigger doubts than I had before regarding the validity and/or completeness of the claims.  I feel like members/fans are being treated like idiots and only being told what the Board feel we should know and being told it when they are either forced to or when they feel like doing so.  Who does that all sound like?  You can't have it both ways.  

Again being completely honest it makes me highly suspicious that there is something to hide and that makes me wonder why that would be?    

I'm sure we will eventually find out.  I hope the Trust Board are completely comfortable with their conduct directly or by association.

In a wider sense I think the Trust Board need to reflect on what people like myself are saying and really question whether this is the level of openess and honesty they should be delivering to it's members.  If a Trust Board Member can't answer questions from it's membership not because they don't know the answer but because they are not allowed to then I think it's clear that's a big problem for that organisation.    

In my opinion the Board has got itself so wrapped up in fighting the Owners they've forgotten that isn't their sole purpose for existence.  I also feel the Board would do well to remember that much like they claim of our owners they are simply custodians and the Supporters Trust belongs to it's members and the fans of NTFC.

The proof does not belong to the Trust or to me so I can't answer that particular question.  I have answered everything else, haven't I?

Not quite sure what we could be hiding.  We're all supporters.  When I joined I thought I would be working with the owners.  But to work with someone I need clarity on what I'm working towards.  In this case I would need to know that we would be working for something genuinely in the best long-term interests of the club.  And there's insufficient evidence of that, on top of the fact that the only potential deal hinges purely on the council at this stage and until then there has been nothing else forthcoming that we could work towards.  I'd expect owners here for the long-term to be full of other ideas.  Deep down I really hope that I'm wrong, but I've been waiting 6 years for proof of that.

I'm sorry I can't do anything about your doubts regarding that one issue.  The owners definitely could though!  But they're not on here, at least under their own names.   But perhaps ask why I would keep doing this if I didn't have genuine fears for the future of NTFC?  I have a full time job, help to run a pub in my "spare time", a family and plenty of other things I could be doing.  I certainly have no desire for publicity or anything like that...

Thank you for taking the time to explain things.  I would also like to know what you think could be a way forward for the club.

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KeithB
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« Reply #29738 on: October 14, 2021, 21:22:59 pm »

Read the question. I didnít ask for detail about the sale. I believe that happened. I asked if everything else the Trust put in their statements / presentation is conjecture. Im not going to ask the council to clarify something the Trust said

Everything we know is fact is stated as fact.  Everything which is not factual is also made clear.

There is another party involved in this to a much greater degree than the Trust which could provide you with 100% of the information if it wished to.  You may well also be asking them, but that wouldn't be via THE I guess, so I can't tell.
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MCHammer
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« Reply #29739 on: October 14, 2021, 21:33:51 pm »

The proof does not belong to the Trust or to me so I can't answer that particular question.  I have answered everything else, haven't I?

I asked the following and you answered none of them.  Perhaps you missed them?  None of these questions require you to have the proof to hand or have ownership of it.  You've seen it, you know who supplied it to the Trust, you are comfortable there are no legal issues as the owners have not denied it so what's the problem?  So I'll let you have another go.....

So while you don't posess the "evidence" having seen it personally you can at least answer some further questions regarding it.  What actually physically is the evidence and what does it exactly show?  Who obtained this information and how did they obtain it?  Why is the person in possession of this information seemingly only willing to share it with The Trust Board and not the supporters?  How do you know the person supplying the evidence has given you the COMPLETE picture.

In fact DM me the persons details and I'll ask them for a copy myself.  Or you can contact them and ask them to release the information.
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