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Redevelopment Closer Than Ever?

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Author Topic: Redevelopment Closer Than Ever?  (Read 1202260 times)
KeithB
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« Reply #29720 on: October 14, 2021, 15:36:55 pm »

I did ask them.  Many times.  The most recent being yesterday!  Do you know what they said?  You should do because I posted it on here several months ago.  "The Trust Board is satisfied that the evidence of the payments in the amounts stated is accurate."  That's it.  Is that a good enough answer?

And you think the club are bad at answering questions.

Here's some facts for you.  The Trust Board, again note the distinction between board and membership, were in possession of this information last summer 2020.  It wasn't only shared with the membership/wider fanbase this summer 2021 and when I say shared I mean we were told about it not shown any actual evidence.  Is that ok, comfortable with that?  If it's so damning why wait nearly a year and even then they only told you about it because people had become aware of it's existence.

As the Trust have stated DB hasn't sued them despite having a string of law firms so they should be perfectly comfortable with producing all the evidence and explaining how/where they got it from.

Apparently in summer 2020 they were so concerned about the information they wrote to KT to challenge him about it.  Discussions took place via letter and meetings where it was discussed.  Do you know what was said?  Nope neither do I or anyone else other than the Trust Board and the club.  WE ONLY know this conversation even happened because KT released a copy of the letter he wrote to the Trust Board in response to their concerns.   Again you comfortable with that?  Open, honest, transparent?

Coincidently that summer 2020 someone was hawking the evidence around local and national press.

You might ask if this evidence is so damning it should be shared with the relevant authorities be that Police, HMRC, Companies House, the football league and I'm sure there are potentially others.  Did this happen?  The trust wouldn't answer and said "The Trust is regulated by the Financial Conduct Authority and complies with its reporting obligations."  So is that a yes/no/maybe?  If it was reported to anyone what was the outcome?

So going back to when they challenged KT in the late summer of 2020.  The Trust have made their position clear.  They have grave concerns regarding the chinese deal and the financial transactions that took place.  They rightly have concerns that the club was sold without anyone telling them.  Basically they don't trust the owners as far as they could throw them.  So what did they do next?  Tell it's membership, provide evidence of the wrong doings.....nope get this and this is simply bizarre and frankly unbelievable.  Just weeks later...  

THEY PUBLICLY RELEASED A JOINT STATEMENT WITH THE OWNERS AND BACKED THE EAST STAND DEVELOPMENT DEAL!!!!

You couldn't make this up.

And that's not even mentioning that this is the EXACT SAME DEAL/PLANS that are on the table TODAY!

And you wonder why I have questions?

Everyone happy with all that?  Is that what you expect from your representatives?  If it is well you are in luck because that's what you have.

And I'm the bad guy for challenging this and asking for much better from them.  As Deepcut said is it really expected that ordinary supporters should have to "pull" this information out of the Trust?

Finally to head of the usual supsects that are about to ignore everything I have written and say "Are happy that the club act this way or why don't you challenge the club".  No I'm not happy and I have challenged the club.  But think about how flawed that kind of thinking is.  You are essentially saying everything I have said above is ok because that's what the owners are like.

This might help.

The Trust Board doesn't "possess" the evidence of the 100% sale of the club to 5U so we can't share it.  However, we have seen it.  I have seen it.  The sale happened.  There was a stage during which I held very similar views to you - if I couldn't see the evidence, I couldn't believe that it happened.  So I understand your view.  If you need to see the evidence, your view will have to remain the same at least for now.  But the Trust has not been challenged by the owners about this fact.

Support for the deal was based on the lack of any other potential way forward for the club, and an understanding that more detail on benefits for NTFC longer-term would be forthcoming as the plans progressed.  In the absence of any further information being forthcoming, either proactively or in response to repeated questions, support had to be withdrawn.

I can see how it looks, it is indeed the same deal, but the fact that it has remained the same is a cause for concern.
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« Reply #29721 on: October 14, 2021, 15:43:47 pm »

This might help.

The Trust Board doesn't "possess" the evidence of the 100% sale of the club to 5U so we can't share it.  However, we have seen it.  I have seen it.  The sale happened.  There was a stage during which I held very similar views to you - if I couldn't see the evidence, I couldn't believe that it happened.  So I understand your view.  If you need to see the evidence, your view will have to remain the same at least for now.  But the Trust has not been challenged by the owners about this fact.

Support for the deal was based on the lack of any other potential way forward for the club, and an understanding that more detail on benefits for NTFC longer-term would be forthcoming as the plans progressed.  In the absence of any further information being forthcoming, either proactively or in response to repeated questions, support had to be withdrawn.

I can see how it looks, it is indeed the same deal, but the fact that it has remained the same is a cause for concern.
Keith
I dont doubt the club was sold. What I dont know is how much the owners pocketed. I find it almost impossible to believe that they kept / banked anywhere close to the ~£6m is reported they sold the club for. Do the Trust have visibility of all the associated costs / transactions and what the net profit was?
This is along the lines of an email I have sent via the Trust website
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Manwork04
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« Reply #29722 on: October 14, 2021, 16:00:23 pm »

Keith
I dont doubt the club was sold. What I dont know is how much the owners pocketed. I find it almost impossible to believe that they kept / banked anywhere close to the ~£6m is reported they sold the club for. Do the Trust have visibility of all the associated costs / transactions and what the net profit was?
This is along the lines of an email I have sent via the Trust website
Why donít you email Kelvin Thomas?
I bet he knows.
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Rule Britannia
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« Reply #29723 on: October 14, 2021, 16:02:45 pm »

As Iíve said before, Iím not professionally involved with the trust board.

Oh,so you mean you are unprofessionally involved.
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« Reply #29724 on: October 14, 2021, 16:04:18 pm »

Why donít you email Kelvin Thomas?
I bet he knows.

I thought it was you who said contact the Trust. They have the proof.
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« Reply #29725 on: October 14, 2021, 16:19:26 pm »

As Iíve said before, Iím not professionally involved with the trust board.
You strike me as a guy with a sense of humour...
When you have a spare 2 mins i'd encourage you to watch this from 3:25


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Deepcut Cobbler
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« Reply #29726 on: October 14, 2021, 16:40:52 pm »

This might help.

The Trust Board doesn't "possess" the evidence of the 100% sale of the club to 5U so we can't share it.  However, we have seen it.  I have seen it.  The sale happened.  There was a stage during which I held very similar views to you - if I couldn't see the evidence, I couldn't believe that it happened.  So I understand your view.  If you need to see the evidence, your view will have to remain the same at least for now.  But the Trust has not been challenged by the owners about this fact.

Support for the deal was based on the lack of any other potential way forward for the club, and an understanding that more detail on benefits for NTFC longer-term would be forthcoming as the plans progressed.  In the absence of any further information being forthcoming, either proactively or in response to repeated questions, support had to be withdrawn.

I can see how it looks, it is indeed the same deal, but the fact that it has remained the same is a cause for concern.

Got that, but an individual on here keeps stating/indicating that DB/KT pocketed the £6m, you state that you know/confirm that the sale was made and I believe that that was widely reported?

Were the funds actually transferred or was the subsequent 'spending' done on the back of a promise?
Do you know what went on afterwards when it didn't go further?

How much of the £6m was returned/refunded (if at all) when the deal/takeover didn't come to the expected full fruition?
The lack of currently available evidence to say that it was or wasn't, isn't necessarily evidence that any of it wasn't.
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KeithB
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« Reply #29727 on: October 14, 2021, 16:47:56 pm »

Keith
I dont doubt the club was sold. What I dont know is how much the owners pocketed. I find it almost impossible to believe that they kept / banked anywhere close to the ~£6m is reported they sold the club for. Do the Trust have visibility of all the associated costs / transactions and what the net profit was?
This is along the lines of an email I have sent via the Trust website

I have only seen evidence of the sale of their shares for £6.68m.

I would have thought that had there been significant costs reducing what the owners ultimately received they might have wanted to publicise it.  They are quite within their rights to retain proceeds of the sale of personal shareholdings, but when the club is in debt to them for a very similar amount it's not the best look and if I were in that situation I would want to set the record straight.
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MCHammer
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« Reply #29728 on: October 14, 2021, 16:48:55 pm »

This might help.

The Trust Board doesn't "possess" the evidence of the 100% sale of the club to 5U so we can't share it.  However, we have seen it.  I have seen it.  The sale happened.  There was a stage during which I held very similar views to you - if I couldn't see the evidence, I couldn't believe that it happened.  So I understand your view.  If you need to see the evidence, your view will have to remain the same at least for now.  But the Trust has not been challenged by the owners about this fact.

Support for the deal was based on the lack of any other potential way forward for the club, and an understanding that more detail on benefits for NTFC longer-term would be forthcoming as the plans progressed.  In the absence of any further information being forthcoming, either proactively or in response to repeated questions, support had to be withdrawn.

I can see how it looks, it is indeed the same deal, but the fact that it has remained the same is a cause for concern.

I appreciate the reply.

But as I said previously what gives you the right to see the evidence and not the members/supporters you represent?  Is the only way to obtain the full information to join the board.  What a strange way for a supporters representative organisation to conduct itself.

So while you don't posess the "evidence" having seen it personally you can at least answer some further questions regarding it.  What actually physically is the evidence and what does it exactly show?  Who obtained this information and how did they obtain it?  Why is the person in possession of this information seemingly only willing to share it with The Trust Board and not the supporters?  How do you know the person supplying the evidence has given you the COMPLETE picture.

In fact DM me the persons details and I'll ask them for a copy myself.  Or you can contact them and ask them to release the information.

As you state if the owners haven't challenged the Trust and if everything is legal and stands up to scrutiny then there clearly is no reason for all of this not to be in the public domain for everyone to make their own minds up.

We also know that KT did dispute some of the "FACTS" as he released a letter to the Trust where he did so.  We also know the Trust had meetings and correspondence with him.  So what was said by the Trust in these discussions?

So the Trust Board were able to decide to back the deal very publicly despite everything you have said and knew about the chinese deal, all the massive concerns about the owners and their broken promises, the lack of detail, the fear that the club would be left with nothing because "it was the only potential way forward".  It clearly wasn't the only way as you have demonstrated by withdrawing the backing.  You didn't have to back it in the first place and I find it incredulous that you did based on the evidence you claim to have for not supporting it.
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« Reply #29729 on: October 14, 2021, 17:04:03 pm »

I have only seen evidence of the sale of their shares for £6.68m.

I would have thought that had there been significant costs reducing what the owners ultimately received they might have wanted to publicise it.  They are quite within their rights to retain proceeds of the sale of personal shareholdings, but when the club is in debt to them for a very similar amount it's not the best look and if I were in that situation I would want to set the record straight.


So, if I'm reading this correctly, essentially you've seen evidence of the initial sale, but not of any subsequent transactions that may or may not have followed in the fallout from the breakdown of the deal?

By the way, can I just say that your contributions on here are much more open, honest and polite than we've become used to from some of your colleagues! It's nice to have a constructive debate with someone from the Trust without being talked down to our sworn at.
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KeithB
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« Reply #29730 on: October 14, 2021, 17:30:38 pm »

I appreciate the reply.

But as I said previously what gives you the right to see the evidence and not the members/supporters you represent?  Is the only way to obtain the full information to join the board.  What a strange way for a supporters representative organisation to conduct itself.

So while you don't posess the "evidence" having seen it personally you can at least answer some further questions regarding it.  What actually physically is the evidence and what does it exactly show?  Who obtained this information and how did they obtain it?  Why is the person in possession of this information seemingly only willing to share it with The Trust Board and not the supporters?  How do you know the person supplying the evidence has given you the COMPLETE picture.

In fact DM me the persons details and I'll ask them for a copy myself.  Or you can contact them and ask them to release the information.

As you state if the owners haven't challenged the Trust and if everything is legal and stands up to scrutiny then there clearly is no reason for all of this not to be in the public domain for everyone to make their own minds up.

We also know that KT did dispute some of the "FACTS" as he released a letter to the Trust where he did so.  We also know the Trust had meetings and correspondence with him.  So what was said by the Trust in these discussions?

So the Trust Board were able to decide to back the deal very publicly despite everything you have said and knew about the chinese deal, all the massive concerns about the owners and their broken promises, the lack of detail, the fear that the club would be left with nothing because "it was the only potential way forward".  It clearly wasn't the only way as you have demonstrated by withdrawing the backing.  You didn't have to back it in the first place and I find it incredulous that you did based on the evidence you claim to have for not supporting it.

I can't do any of the things you're asking me to do, sorry.

The backing was subject to future clarity, the decision made with the information we had at the time and yes of course with all the concerns you highlight and we still had very much in mind.   Personally speaking, if I had to make the decision again I would not make the same one.  But I did feel (and still do) a need to help in any way I could the club's stagnation to end.  The fact that all the club has delivered since was the open day in June showing old pictures and giving no commitment to lasting benefit to the club, and nothing since, could not have been 100% foreseen but I guess the signs were there from the previous 6 years...
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KeithB
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« Reply #29731 on: October 14, 2021, 17:44:36 pm »

So, if I'm reading this correctly, essentially you've seen evidence of the initial sale, but not of any subsequent transactions that may or may not have followed in the fallout from the breakdown of the deal?

By the way, can I just say that your contributions on here are much more open, honest and polite than we've become used to from some of your colleagues! It's nice to have a constructive debate with someone from the Trust without being talked down to our sworn at.

Correct.  It's unknown to all but those involved.  As I've previously said, if I had received £6.68m whilst my business but also a much-loved community asset that I claimed to be custodian of and wanted to improve became in debt to me for a similar amount, I would want to let people know if my net receipts were significantly lower than £6.68m. 

You're welcome.  I assume everyone on here wants the best for NTFC, I don't have a monopoly on that and I'm no more clever than anyone else.  If people have a problem with what we do and/or the way we do it, it's important to me to understand what and why, and also to gather ideas on how we might one day be able to help the club move forward.  This development situation has paralysed the club for most of the last 10 years and whilst the support seems very fragmented over the owners, the Trust and the best way forward, I've yet to speak with anyone who thinks the current situation is ideal.
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Manwork04
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« Reply #29732 on: October 14, 2021, 18:20:50 pm »

I thought it was you who said contact the Trust. They have the proof.
They do.
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« Reply #29733 on: October 14, 2021, 18:23:07 pm »

Oh,so you mean you are unprofessionally involved.

Perhaps this will help.
https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/503256/why-do-people-tend-to-use-negation-of-negative-statement
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Rule Britannia
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« Reply #29734 on: October 14, 2021, 18:27:45 pm »

You strike me as a guy with a sense of humour...
When you have a spare 2 mins i'd encourage you to watch this from 3:25



You strike me as someone who has been hurt or taken advantage of in the past?
Therapy is one popular approach for addressing trust issues. It can help people open up and get to the root of what could be causing their issue.
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Rule Britannia
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« Reply #29735 on: October 14, 2021, 18:38:17 pm »

They do.
Have a read of Keithís replies
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Manwork04
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« Reply #29736 on: October 14, 2021, 18:58:30 pm »

They have proof of the transactions.
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Rule Britannia
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« Reply #29737 on: October 14, 2021, 19:04:31 pm »

Keith
Would it be fair to say that its been proven the club was sold for ~£6.68m and anything outside of that is conjecture?
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Manwork04
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« Reply #29738 on: October 14, 2021, 19:06:00 pm »

Keith
Would it be fair to say that its been proven the club was sold for ~£6m and anything outside of that is conjecture?
Or you could ask the council, they have seen it as well.
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Rule Britannia
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« Reply #29739 on: October 14, 2021, 19:16:02 pm »

Or you could ask the council, they have seen it as well.
Read the question. I didnít ask for detail about the sale. I believe that happened. I asked if everything else the Trust put in their statements / presentation is conjecture. Im not going to ask the council to clarify something the Trust said
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