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Redevelopment Closer Than Ever?

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Author Topic: Redevelopment Closer Than Ever?  (Read 1523130 times)
guest3429
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« Reply #29740 on: October 26, 2021, 16:11:40 pm »

Iím sorry but this is wishful thinking.
The land that the structure would stand on would belong to the club owner not the fans.

The idea is commendable but unworkable.
Owners with ambition and foresight would probably consider this a wise move but asking fans to do it when the owners donít seem keen is not the way to go imo.

You never know whatís round the corner in football
Fans could chip in their money , new owners could come in , the club could be badly run and then liquidated.
Youíd get £0 of the money back that you invested and the area could be bulldozed for housing.

If this idea is to get off the ground it would need owners who believe in it.
Have you asked David bower what he thinks of it?

He may be able to tell you if itís a good idea or not.

If a new owner came in he would be within his rights not to honour any previous arrangements (for example KT wanting the trust rep off of the board)
Thus there is no way an offer of a percentage discount for life would be legally applicable.

I appreciate your opinion of course but many far fetched ifs, buts and maybes and nothing we are not aware of already and certainly not unworkable.

The land is not for sale? Do you or a member of the Trust have a copy of the lease and boundaries? What huge change or planning applications do you envisage to the north stand section in the next 25 years, considering the previous?

Are the bulldozers on the horizon? Owners may come and go but fans do not, leases are exchanged and caveats can be created especially within community led projects. I have a hotel on leased land that would never normally be available, the land is not for sale at any price. Works fine, make money out of the situation or just stare at it!

With regard to "life" club or Trust membership, I'm sure the Trust are not dying out soon nor the club for that matter.

Nothing to fear from this plan other than fear itself. I understand you would not participate that's fine, its not for everyone.

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« Reply #29741 on: October 26, 2021, 16:19:41 pm »


But as the owners have clearly laid out their plans,
Do they ?
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« Reply #29742 on: October 26, 2021, 16:20:34 pm »

The New Hotel End Did....
The bit I have highlighted is key to me and what I said above, we / The Trust / The NHE / Whoever it is, need to demonstrate the benefit with actual case studies, costings, P&L, letters of intent, etc before the owners will entertain anything.  We've seen they have to see profit before doing anything with the disagreement over what is developed first, the land or the stand. This is what I thought the NHE were doing since their grand unveiling. I dont think it will take much for them or anyone else to pick it back up, use crowdfunding to pay for the business case before going back to the club. Bit like Dragons den.

Absolutely needs to be a solid front and work together.

I would be very happy to provide a business plan that would make absolute sense to KT, The NHE has popped the cork so to speak but the plan looking from a business angle for me doesn't create a 365 day income and a true fans home supporters would be proud of and use all year round.

This project would embrace the whole local community surrounding Sixfields and be usable for everyone including local residents.
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« Reply #29743 on: October 26, 2021, 16:31:42 pm »

I appreciate your opinion of course but many far fetched ifs, buts and maybes and nothing we are not aware of already and certainly not unworkable.

The land is not for sale? Do you or a member of the Trust have a copy of the lease and boundaries? What huge change or planning applications do you envisage to the north stand section in the next 25 years, considering the previous?

Are the bulldozers on the horizon? Owners may come and go but fans do not, leases are exchanged and caveats can be created especially within community led projects. I have a hotel on leased land that would never normally be available, the land is not for sale at any price. Works fine, make money out of the situation or just stare at it!

With regard to "life" club or Trust membership, I'm sure the Trust are not dying out soon nor the club for that matter.

Nothing to fear from this plan other than fear itself. I understand you would not participate that's fine, its not for everyone.


Good luck with it
Try contacting Tom cliffe the fans rep.
He will be the one in a position to help the fans raise their issues directly to the boardÖ.
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« Reply #29744 on: October 26, 2021, 16:42:19 pm »

Anything that gets us back on track as supporters. And involves everyone, Iím more than up for giving it serious thought.
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« Reply #29745 on: October 26, 2021, 16:51:09 pm »

Do they ?
They have laid out their plans, you might not like them, but they have laid them out. So anything additional such as a fan village, development of the north stand, any of the other good suggestions in the generally positive messages above, will need to be presented to them in the way that we have all been discussing.

Try engaging in the wider positive discussion and not looking for the one sentence that you can poke and leave sarcastic comments too. Even those above who have their reservations about any proposals, the way it can be funded etc have engaged in good debate. I think with Keith joining the discussion, Random taking a new approach, as well as many others (myself included) take a more engaging tone,  there has been a lot of good discussions happening, still with differences of opinion. We're all here for the same reason
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« Reply #29746 on: October 26, 2021, 16:56:36 pm »

Good luck with it
Try contacting Tom cliffe the fans rep.
He will be the one in a position to help the fans raise their issues directly to the boardÖ.
Agree with this. Can help the fans engage with the board but also feed back what the board would want to see to form the business case etc
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« Reply #29747 on: October 26, 2021, 17:29:11 pm »

OK, my last run at it for today, getting late here time for bed!

Itís going to be incredibly difficult to describe the development without having visual plans which will take some time. If somebody jumps in before me and builds a new north stand in the next six months fair play. Grin

Imagine a large open spacious airy first floor concourse, with tall glass panels to the faÁade creating a bright open feel, opening glass doors leading out to a convex curved outside balcony to the front offering good weather seating and viewing.

To one end a striking copper clad micro-brewery proudly polished and in full view behind a long full width stylish bar offering a full range of drinks, food and of course our own (carbon negative) craft beers all in a sumptuous carpeted area. Open from 10am (every day except match day) offering superb breakfasts, lunches, coffees, teas through to Sunday roasts. Sundays  Wink

The surroundings have the feel of a stylish cafť or coffee shop with comfortable sofas, tables, carpets even table lamps and co-working spaces, intimate areas, perfect for families going to the cinema, friends to meet chill out.

To the opposite end to the bar a raised stage area for entertainment, bands, every possibility you can think of, but in normal use chairs and tables for dining, on Saturday night The Bonzo Dog do Da Band, on Wednesday night Sticky Ribs and coleslaw!

Of course most of this furniture disappears on match day to designed storage areas in this multipurpose venue. The private (Brian Lomax) suites viewing the pitch offer further opportunities as part of a whole event, match entertainment and can be accessed directly into the venue, the wedding table in the suite the dancing and party in the venue.

The Trust (Us) would proudly share pitch viewing offices, admin centre and part of the venue management suite where visitors or those interested in our community venture can be welcomed in luxury and comfort, no more draughty town halls for meetings, lattes all round.

I give you the ultimate 365 day a year community clubhouse that makes a huge annual profit.

When the visuals come out and its in the papers and on social media around the world Iím sure 2000 or so will want to spend just £500 (the first deposit) to have their name proudly displayed on such a building, the momentum will go from there. Nowhere they can turn really?

You can legally make plans on any property regardless of ownership so nothing ventured...the community own it anyway we just want to use it for a more worthwhile purpose, we will pay for the alterations ourselves.
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« Reply #29748 on: October 27, 2021, 08:16:31 am »

This is what you have to get by.

https://icsesolutions.com/the-cold-within-summary/

Each time we seem to make any progress. We are confronted by some seriously entrenched views. Unless people come from a place of trust and compromise, any progress will flat on its face. I genuinely believe, and have all along, that there is a real desire for progress on all sides. Of course as always with these things individual motivations will differ. But that should not be allowed to detract from the objective. Letís say I have adopted a cautiously optimistic mode regarding the ability of the parties involved to embrace it as a challenge, rather than a threatÖ

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« Reply #29749 on: October 28, 2021, 10:39:15 am »

Thanks Tel, fortunately there's no chance of me freezing here so Ill pick up all the sticks and sharpen them before returning next year, armed!

I have witnessed many similar issues with opening new venues, I do understand many of the stubborn obstacles having completed several successful business plans for Scottish & Newcastle retail in the past.

Having discussed this with several long in the tooth professionals, all running entertainment and hotel businesses as I do and also a senior member of a national pub chain development company, we all have the same conclusion. I'm not too sure that some close to the club, supporters and Trust members understand what a golden egg they possibly sit on?

I'm not too sure even KT is truly aware, lack of local knowledge can be a huge factor. Whatever reason he is dedicating his stewardship to the matters in front of him.

We have one unanimous opinion. Given a venue of this size, location and potential, with a massive head start of 46,000+ guaranteed through the door annually, we would all take it on. Set within a short distance of so many customers and with the options available to offer the broader local community in a venue this size its a £40,000 a week average turnover, even if Geema was in charge.(I'm not suggesting this by the way.)

I have one or two advantages to others when I come swinging this prospectus around, I'm not local anymore and my business and life are not in any jeopardy from speaking out and making some noise. I have no fear in causing embarrassment if necessary.

I'll be seeing you in the New Year sometime.  Wink
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« Reply #29750 on: October 28, 2021, 11:30:51 am »

Totally agree Steve, my frustrations in a nutshell.

We have such an opportunity, we have a large catchment area and no Man U on our doorstep, AND our council looking to create a £20m income from a land sale in the club's name.

I know many fans just want the bloody East stand finished !!!  I don't blame them but the question is.....

Will a £3m basic East stand development move us forward? 

Looking at the plans, coupled with just 200 extra seats, I really don't think it will push us forward much at all.

We will be just catching up with others in L2, and still long way behind L1. Executive boxes are certainly needed but every other club has them

s*** boro just had 4000 QPR fans at their game Saturday. (yes I know that is Championship)

For £20m we need more, we must demand more from KT and WNC, otherwise history will continue to repeat itself.
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« Reply #29751 on: October 28, 2021, 11:39:22 am »

Has anyone on here considered that the owners may be content to make their profit from the land sale and arenít interested in spending money on schemes such as this.

Again there are a lot of ideas but has anyone actually approached the owners for their opinions , this may come as a shock to some but it is their opinion that counts and as of yet Iíve not seen anyone approach them for comment.

Itís as if the fan base are full of ideas but unwilling to run them past the owners.

It doesnít matter one jot how much support is garnered for an idea if the owners arenít onside

Can I respectfully ask that before any more is posted on this issue we can at least gauge Davidís feelings towards it , that way we can ascertain if itís a great idea or a waste of time

Nothing can be done without Davidís agreement.
Who has asked him??
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« Reply #29752 on: October 28, 2021, 12:07:05 pm »

Shoemaker, posted this a couple of days ago but the NHE team spoke to Kelvin and James Whiting

https://www.northamptonchron.co.uk/sport/football/the-new-hotel-end-cobblers-fans-launch-ambitious-project-to-create-landmark-safe-standing-end-at-sixfields-3272334

As said before, my take was they would be open to anything that can be proven to be beneficial (why wouldn't they) but wouldn't get involved in the analysis, due diligence etc. They would need something oven ready   Evil
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« Reply #29753 on: October 28, 2021, 12:13:48 pm »

Has anyone on here considered that the owners may be content to make their profit from the land sale and arenít interested in spending money on schemes such as this.

Again there are a lot of ideas but has anyone actually approached the owners for their opinions , this may come as a shock to some but it is their opinion that counts and as of yet Iíve not seen anyone approach them for comment.

Itís as if the fan base are full of ideas but unwilling to run them past the owners.

It doesnít matter one jot how much support is garnered for an idea if the owners arenít onside

Can I respectfully ask that before any more is posted on this issue we can at least gauge Davidís feelings towards it , that way we can ascertain if itís a great idea or a waste of time

Nothing can be done without Davidís agreement.
Who has asked him??



The owners haven't to date, done any development on the stadium and the East stand certainly lacks any wow or modern ideas or thinking IMHO.

They have put £6m into the club accounts so I don't expect anything development wise otherwise they surely would have done something by now.

An Infrastructure Foundation in partnership with WNC and the club could redevelop Sixfields into something to be proud of and fit for purpose  

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« Reply #29754 on: October 28, 2021, 12:55:32 pm »

My distant amateur opinion is DB/KT have progressed the lease paperwork and financed the working debt BUT nothing else!

WNC can recover NBC's debt with a land deal with DB/KT BUT must include a clause that the East Stand with Executive Boxes, Conference Centre and Hotel before the land deal is completed!

My question to WNC and DB/KT is WHEN?

NTFC suppoerters and local taxpayers have waited long enough!

PS- When will the CPS make a decision?
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« Reply #29755 on: October 28, 2021, 13:10:13 pm »

Thanks Manny, if only those who sit at the various tables shared our vision!

I was hoping with the formation of the Trust we would eventually see some tangible developments and benefits for the fans of NTFC, ways we could contribute, a more secure long term future for the club with additional investment (ring-fenced from owners) and spent directly on benefits for the club and fans but honestly Iím not sure what has actually been achieved?  Its time they stood up.

The plan I have, and the Trust are welcome to it, would not only be a catalyst for them but realise vital funds for the club and that is to build a home, a business, a stand.

A prominent development, in this case a fans, Trust built stand is the way forward. A rough visual pitch side comparison would be the Homeserve stand at Walsall however their original lower tier is larger than our existing north stand tier and therefore the Homeserve stand sits somewhat higher. Ours would be so much more beautiful.

They added just over 2000 seats to the upper tier and boxes behind the original structure. Creating an upper tier provides a roof for the important section underneath, my plan a multi functioning 365 day enterprise, a home for the new prominent Trust and an everyday meeting place for fans with a bar selling its own product, an attraction in itself.

Creating an open plan visual, well-polished copper clad working micro-brewery at the east end with its own bar, kitchens and hospitality could provide a bar venue experience open 7 days a week. With a versatile stage area at the opposite (west) end capable of providing for a band or additional match day areas, wedding singers, whatever. Just as the NHE envisaged but somewhat more professional and practical for everyday use.

The upper concourse itself obviously capable of accommodating 2000 people so versatile for almost any event, even an Indian wedding! Being on the first floor, level with the back of the current north stand even a balcony area could be provided to the front aspect so customers at events or even match day could enjoy a beer outside in the right weather.

The pitch viewing private boxes or VIP areas (Brian Lomax Suite) could be sold individually or even integrated as part of bigger events, the Trust also having a pitch facing home, admin management centre and real base to finally grow from. Full time jobs created within the brewery, bars and management.

Funding? ďSellĒ the 2000 seats for £1500 each, frankly that's bugger all and I would wager there are enough of us fans scattered around the globe who would love to ďbuy a seatĒ to build a new stand. Only 1999 to go as Iím in!

They will tell me itís not possible, but they've never tried.

Sorry SMM, I didnt mean railed seating,
  I hate the thought of railed seating, it only existed to allow clubs to sell expensive seats for standing.
My wish would be for an old school terracing that is safe and well stewarded.
During this Cardoza Thomas era, getting more fans in the ground is not a priority,  so they mumble on about a few boxes that if they ever see the light of day would cost a fortune for very little return.
Our club, to survive as a L1 club must have the ability to sell a ticket to everyone who wishes to attend, several times a L1 season this isnt possible.
Also a more attractive professional looking stadium that creates a good atmosphere would invariably attract many more fans.
By all means encourage supporters to a fan a village but at the same time making sure the ground ends up looking more professional  by eliminating it's current non league features and vibes, which currently put off 1000s from paying good money to visit.
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« Reply #29756 on: October 28, 2021, 13:24:07 pm »

Meanwhile our egg chasing neighbours down the road push on with improving their facilities.

https://www.northamptonchron.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/saints-bid-to-build-new-training-facility-3435667
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I think someone should just take this city of Peterborough and just... just flush it down the f***in' toilet

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« Reply #29757 on: October 28, 2021, 13:47:25 pm »

OK, my last run at it for today, getting late here time for bed!

Itís going to be incredibly difficult to describe the development without having visual plans which will take some time. If somebody jumps in before me and builds a new north stand in the next six months fair play. Grin

Imagine a large open spacious airy first floor concourse, with tall glass panels to the faÁade creating a bright open feel, opening glass doors leading out to a convex curved outside balcony to the front offering good weather seating and viewing.

To one end a striking copper clad micro-brewery proudly polished and in full view behind a long full width stylish bar offering a full range of drinks, food and of course our own (carbon negative) craft beers all in a sumptuous carpeted area. Open from 10am (every day except match day) offering superb breakfasts, lunches, coffees, teas through to Sunday roasts. Sundays  Wink

The surroundings have the feel of a stylish cafť or coffee shop with comfortable sofas, tables, carpets even table lamps and co-working spaces, intimate areas, perfect for families going to the cinema, friends to meet chill out.

To the opposite end to the bar a raised stage area for entertainment, bands, every possibility you can think of, but in normal use chairs and tables for dining, on Saturday night The Bonzo Dog do Da Band, on Wednesday night Sticky Ribs and coleslaw!

Of course most of this furniture disappears on match day to designed storage areas in this multipurpose venue. The private (Brian Lomax) suites viewing the pitch offer further opportunities as part of a whole event, match entertainment and can be accessed directly into the venue, the wedding table in the suite the dancing and party in the venue.

The Trust (Us) would proudly share pitch viewing offices, admin centre and part of the venue management suite where visitors or those interested in our community venture can be welcomed in luxury and comfort, no more draughty town halls for meetings, lattes all round.

I give you the ultimate 365 day a year community clubhouse that makes a huge annual profit.

When the visuals come out and its in the papers and on social media around the world Iím sure 2000 or so will want to spend just £500 (the first deposit) to have their name proudly displayed on such a building, the momentum will go from there. Nowhere they can turn really?

You can legally make plans on any property regardless of ownership so nothing ventured...the community own it anyway we just want to use it for a more worthwhile purpose, we will pay for the alterations ourselves.


Please give an estimate on yr proposed stand scheme.
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« Reply #29758 on: October 28, 2021, 14:03:11 pm »

Sorry SMM, I didnt mean railed seating,
  I hate the thought of railed seating, it only existed to allow clubs to sell expensive seats for standing.
My wish would be for an old school terracing that is safe and well stewarded.
During this Cardoza Thomas era, getting more fans in the ground is not a priority,  so they mumble on about a few boxes that if they ever see the light of day would cost a fortune for very little return.
Our club, to survive as a L1 club must have the ability to sell a ticket to everyone who wishes to attend, several times a L1 season this isnt possible.
Also a more attractive professional looking stadium that creates a good atmosphere would invariably attract many more fans.
By all means encourage supporters to a fan a village but at the same time making sure the ground ends up looking more professional  by eliminating it's current non league features and vibes, which currently put off 1000s from paying good money to visit.


I'm with you all the way on atmosphere Beds, but it don't pay the bills, this plan is all about maximum yield.

KT, the club can decide what they wish with the lower north tier, this venture will not affect its normal use. Alterations to the rear will be necessary but wont affect the club or its revenue stream in any way during construction.

The upper tier will be 12' higher than the existing lower tier and the design absolutely needs seats in this area, there is an exciting twist to this which I cant reveal.

The atmosphere will come from the upper tier being 100% full for every game.
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« Reply #29759 on: October 28, 2021, 14:03:51 pm »

Please give an estimate on yr proposed stand scheme.

£3.25m
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