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Redevelopment Closer Than Ever?

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Author Topic: Redevelopment Closer Than Ever?  (Read 1183889 times)
Manwork04
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« Reply #29740 on: October 14, 2021, 19:25:38 pm »

Read the question. I didnít ask for detail about the sale. I believe that happened. I asked if everything else the Trust put in their statements / presentation is conjecture. Im not going to ask the council to clarify something the Trust said
Do you think the council would take the Trusts word or would they want proof?
If it was made up by the Trust what do you think our owners would do?

Sometimes you need a bit of lateral thinking, read between the lines.
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« Reply #29741 on: October 14, 2021, 19:29:18 pm »

Do you think the council would take the Trusts word or would they want proof?
If it was made up by the Trust what do you think our owners would do?

Sometimes you need a bit of lateral thinking, read between the lines.
You correctly told me to ask the Trust my questions. I have done that via both their website and on here. How about you let them answer.
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SadOldGit
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« Reply #29742 on: October 14, 2021, 20:09:22 pm »

I am confused. Everybody seems to be treating this as a revelation. Didn't we know all along that they sold the club to the Chinese?
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« Reply #29743 on: October 14, 2021, 20:33:16 pm »

I am confused. Everybody seems to be treating this as a revelation. Didn't we know all along that they sold the club to the Chinese?

Yep and what a lot seem to have difficulty grasping is that they sold their shares, not the club's, council's trust's or anyone else's and any money they made from that deal is their business and no one else's.
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« Reply #29744 on: October 14, 2021, 20:45:07 pm »

But, in a bid to undermine the owners, people are pushing it as far as they can. Quite simple, if people , be it the Trust or anybody else, have proof of wrongdoing then they should inform the correct authorities. If they do not have proof, or they don't have minerals to inform authorities,  then its time for them to keep their months shut, keyboards closed, move on, because this witch hunt needs to be put to bed.
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MCHammer
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« Reply #29745 on: October 14, 2021, 20:58:45 pm »

I can't do any of the things you're asking me to do, sorry.

The backing was subject to future clarity, the decision made with the information we had at the time and yes of course with all the concerns you highlight and we still had very much in mind.   Personally speaking, if I had to make the decision again I would not make the same one.  But I did feel (and still do) a need to help in any way I could the club's stagnation to end.  The fact that all the club has delivered since was the open day in June showing old pictures and giving no commitment to lasting benefit to the club, and nothing since, could not have been 100% foreseen but I guess the signs were there from the previous 6 years...

I appreciate your honesty and I have no doubt in my mind you are doing what you believe is right.  One more question.  Why can't you do any of the things I'm asking?

I also have to be completely honest here.  You are clearly intelligent enough to understand the avoidance or lack of ability to provide the evidence or answer what are straight forward questions leaves me with bigger doubts than I had before regarding the validity and/or completeness of the claims.  I feel like members/fans are being treated like idiots and only being told what the Board feel we should know and being told it when they are either forced to or when they feel like doing so.  Who does that all sound like?  You can't have it both ways.  

Again being completely honest it makes me highly suspicious that there is something to hide and that makes me wonder why that would be?    

I'm sure we will eventually find out.  I hope the Trust Board are completely comfortable with their conduct directly or by association.

In a wider sense I think the Trust Board need to reflect on what people like myself are saying and really question whether this is the level of openess and honesty they should be delivering to it's members.  If a Trust Board Member can't answer questions from it's membership not because they don't know the answer but because they are not allowed to then I think it's clear that's a big problem for that organisation.    

In my opinion the Board has got itself so wrapped up in fighting the Owners they've forgotten that isn't their sole purpose for existence.  I also feel the Board would do well to remember that much like they claim of our owners they are simply custodians and the Supporters Trust belongs to it's members and the fans of NTFC.
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MCHammer
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« Reply #29746 on: October 14, 2021, 21:04:37 pm »

Do you think the council would take the Trusts word or would they want proof?

Good point.  So the supporters are supposed to take the Trusts word and not require proof?
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« Reply #29747 on: October 14, 2021, 21:17:39 pm »

I appreciate your honesty and I have no doubt in my mind you are doing what you believe is right.  One more question.  Why can't you do any of the things I'm asking?

I also have to be completely honest here.  You are clearly intelligent enough to understand the avoidance or lack of ability to provide the evidence or answer what are straight forward questions leaves me with bigger doubts than I had before regarding the validity and/or completeness of the claims.  I feel like members/fans are being treated like idiots and only being told what the Board feel we should know and being told it when they are either forced to or when they feel like doing so.  Who does that all sound like?  You can't have it both ways.  

Again being completely honest it makes me highly suspicious that there is something to hide and that makes me wonder why that would be?    

I'm sure we will eventually find out.  I hope the Trust Board are completely comfortable with their conduct directly or by association.

In a wider sense I think the Trust Board need to reflect on what people like myself are saying and really question whether this is the level of openess and honesty they should be delivering to it's members.  If a Trust Board Member can't answer questions from it's membership not because they don't know the answer but because they are not allowed to then I think it's clear that's a big problem for that organisation.    

In my opinion the Board has got itself so wrapped up in fighting the Owners they've forgotten that isn't their sole purpose for existence.  I also feel the Board would do well to remember that much like they claim of our owners they are simply custodians and the Supporters Trust belongs to it's members and the fans of NTFC.

The proof does not belong to the Trust or to me so I can't answer that particular question.  I have answered everything else, haven't I?

Not quite sure what we could be hiding.  We're all supporters.  When I joined I thought I would be working with the owners.  But to work with someone I need clarity on what I'm working towards.  In this case I would need to know that we would be working for something genuinely in the best long-term interests of the club.  And there's insufficient evidence of that, on top of the fact that the only potential deal hinges purely on the council at this stage and until then there has been nothing else forthcoming that we could work towards.  I'd expect owners here for the long-term to be full of other ideas.  Deep down I really hope that I'm wrong, but I've been waiting 6 years for proof of that.

I'm sorry I can't do anything about your doubts regarding that one issue.  The owners definitely could though!  But they're not on here, at least under their own names.   But perhaps ask why I would keep doing this if I didn't have genuine fears for the future of NTFC?  I have a full time job, help to run a pub in my "spare time", a family and plenty of other things I could be doing.  I certainly have no desire for publicity or anything like that...

Thank you for taking the time to explain things.  I would also like to know what you think could be a way forward for the club.

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« Reply #29748 on: October 14, 2021, 21:22:59 pm »

Read the question. I didnít ask for detail about the sale. I believe that happened. I asked if everything else the Trust put in their statements / presentation is conjecture. Im not going to ask the council to clarify something the Trust said

Everything we know is fact is stated as fact.  Everything which is not factual is also made clear.

There is another party involved in this to a much greater degree than the Trust which could provide you with 100% of the information if it wished to.  You may well also be asking them, but that wouldn't be via THE I guess, so I can't tell.
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MCHammer
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« Reply #29749 on: October 14, 2021, 21:33:51 pm »

The proof does not belong to the Trust or to me so I can't answer that particular question.  I have answered everything else, haven't I?

I asked the following and you answered none of them.  Perhaps you missed them?  None of these questions require you to have the proof to hand or have ownership of it.  You've seen it, you know who supplied it to the Trust, you are comfortable there are no legal issues as the owners have not denied it so what's the problem?  So I'll let you have another go.....

So while you don't posess the "evidence" having seen it personally you can at least answer some further questions regarding it.  What actually physically is the evidence and what does it exactly show?  Who obtained this information and how did they obtain it?  Why is the person in possession of this information seemingly only willing to share it with The Trust Board and not the supporters?  How do you know the person supplying the evidence has given you the COMPLETE picture.

In fact DM me the persons details and I'll ask them for a copy myself.  Or you can contact them and ask them to release the information.
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« Reply #29750 on: October 14, 2021, 21:38:35 pm »

Everything we know is fact is stated as fact.  Everything which is not factual is also made clear.

There is another party involved in this to a much greater degree than the Trust which could provide you with 100% of the information if it wished to.  You may well also be asking them, but that wouldn't be via THE I guess, so I can't tell.

With respect Keith are you saying every individual supporter needs to contact KT when the Trust, the supporters representative body acting on our behalf, already has quite some time ago but won't tell us what was said?
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« Reply #29751 on: October 14, 2021, 21:43:59 pm »

With respect Keith are you saying every individual supporter needs to contact KT when the Trust, the supporters representative body acting on our behalf, already has quite some time ago but won't tell us what was said?

KT hasn't said anything in any discussion I've been involved with that wasn't shared by the Trust.  I don't know who has told you that but it's not correct as far as I know. 

But people have plenty of time to ask me on here and not enough to drop the owners a quick email asking what the plan is?
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« Reply #29752 on: October 14, 2021, 22:11:43 pm »

KT hasn't said anything in any discussion I've been involved with that wasn't shared by the Trust.  I don't know who has told you that but it's not correct as far as I know. 

But people have plenty of time to ask me on here and not enough to drop the owners a quick email asking what the plan is?

I think you are confused.  You replied to Woody who was questioning the detail surrounding the sale to the Chinese.  You suggested he contact KT.  A supporter did just that a couple of months ago and was given a copy of a letter KT had sent to the Trust giving his version.  So I was pointing out that the Trust already did confront KT regarding the Chinese deal last summer 2020.  What we don't know is what those full conversations were and whether it satisfied the Trust.  In fact we only know this discussion took place because KT told us not the Trust.
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« Reply #29753 on: October 15, 2021, 00:41:24 am »

For what itís worth can I just say that personally I am impressed with the way Keith conducts himself on here. People may not always be happy with the answers, but I donít think anyone can complain with the tone and manner regarding how they are communicated. Somehow I feel if we could all keep to that standard we might get somewhere. Just saying.
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« Reply #29754 on: October 15, 2021, 01:21:16 am »

Got that, but an individual on here keeps stating/indicating that DB/KT pocketed the £6m, you state that you know/confirm that the sale was made and I believe that that was widely reported?

Were the funds actually transferred or was the subsequent 'spending' done on the back of a promise?
Do you know what went on afterwards when it didn't go further?

How much of the £6m was returned/refunded (if at all) when the deal/takeover didn't come to the expected full fruition?
The lack of currently available evidence to say that it was or wasn't, isn't necessarily evidence that any of it wasn't.

Keith,
I asked this at 1640hrs yesterday, in amongst the others, it appears that you missed responding?
Thanks...
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« Reply #29755 on: October 15, 2021, 07:15:12 am »

Keith,
I asked this at 1640hrs yesterday, in amongst the others, it appears that you missed responding?
Thanks...

In fairness DC I think Keth answered more or less the same question when I asked it.

So, if I'm reading this correctly, essentially you've seen evidence of the initial sale, but not of any subsequent transactions that may or may not have followed in the fallout from the breakdown of the deal?

Correct.  It's unknown to all but those involved. 

So neither the Trust nor anyone else outside KT, DB, 5USports and any intermediaries have any evidence of what happened subsequent to the original transaction. This makes certain accusations made by some people little more than insinuation and supposition with no evidence to back it up.

Maybe the owners did trouser a few million, maybe the payment itself never materialised in full, maybe they gave it back... I've no more of a clue than anyone else but I certainly don't see it as a valid stick to beat them with.

The usual response to this is "KT could clear all this up if he wanted to" but something clearly went badly wrong in the transaction meaning some sort of agreement must have been made at some point to draw the whole mess to a close, and I'd be amazed if that didn't come with a mutual NDA attached.
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« Reply #29756 on: October 15, 2021, 08:08:14 am »

Everything we know is fact is stated as fact.  Everything which is not factual is also made clear.

There is another party involved in this to a much greater degree than the Trust which could provide you with 100% of the information if it wished to.  You may well also be asking them, but that wouldn't be via THE I guess, so I can't tell.
Appreciate the replies, and as others have said you deserve credit for the way you have interacted with people such as myself. Its refreshing to be able to get straight forward replies, even though I might not agree with what you say.
I don't have any further questions but in light of what you have said, I disagree that 'Everything which is not factual is also made clear'. Personally I think it was written in a way to make it sound like fact.
I've said before but I hope and encourage the Trust board, and yourself in particular, to review the list of questions, review the statements and the presentation and really ask if they were portrayed in the right way. I appreciate you are all volunteers, all passionate and all have the interests of the club at heart but the tone of the above for me is always going to provoke a negative reply. I'm not saying that you need to cosy up and be submissive but there is a balance to be struck. This is something I hope the councilors can help with.
Now, on to the weekend!
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« Reply #29757 on: October 15, 2021, 08:42:14 am »


I don't have any further questions


Keith, you may leave the (East) stand.
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« Reply #29758 on: October 15, 2021, 09:03:42 am »

At the moment, I canít really get in any further debate about this subject. However, one thing I will say, is to repeat what I said quite a few years ago now.

Everyone thinks they are right. Everyone probably wants whatís best for the club. But one thing is for sure. As much as football is important to us all. Had some people invested the time and effort they put into arguing on here, into something really worthy of their attention, Iím sure they would feel better about themselves today. And might have made a real difference in this world.

Remember this. If one brutal dictatorship, with an heinous human rights record of r@pe, mutilation, murder, corruption and torture turned up offering us premiership football, none of our words would matter. Football, and football supporters would be outside the club, sitting on their fellow supporters shoulders, cheering on the new regime and every word on this thread would count for nought.

So drop any romantic notion that football gives a flying fcuk about anything, or that anyone will stop its charge towards oblivion. And never make the mistake of taking yourself serious on here 😀😀
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Manwork04
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« Reply #29759 on: October 15, 2021, 09:22:41 am »

At the moment, I canít really get in any further debate about this subject. However, one thing I will say, is to repeat what I said quite a few years ago now.

Everyone thinks they are right. Everyone probably wants whatís best for the club. But one thing is for sure. As much as football is important to us all. Had some people invested the time and effort they put into arguing on here, into something really worthy of their attention, Iím sure they would feel better about themselves today. And might have made a real difference in this world.

Remember this. If one brutal dictatorship, with an heinous human rights record of r@pe, mutilation, murder, corruption and torture turned up offering us premiership football, none of our words would matter. Football, and football supporters would be outside the club, sitting on their fellow supporters shoulders, cheering on the new regime and every word on this thread would count for nought.

So drop any romantic notion that football gives a flying fcuk about anything, or that anyone will stop its charge towards oblivion. And never make the mistake of taking yourself serious on here 😀😀
One things for sure Tel they would pass the ďFit and Proper TestĒ .
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