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Redevelopment Closer Than Ever?

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Author Topic: Redevelopment Closer Than Ever?  (Read 1183906 times)
Carton Lid
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« Reply #30340 on: November 25, 2021, 18:09:17 pm »

Aren't Exeter a "Rugby town" ?  Grin
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Terryfenwickatemyhamster
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« Reply #30341 on: November 25, 2021, 18:37:09 pm »

I think Exeter posted a £3M profit last year, Newport County, Accrington and Morecambe with less than half our fan base don't lose £800K a year. NTFC did run as a break even business for a few years under DC so why cant we now ?
  

Hardly any of them run debt free. Itís just that some clubs are propped up by money put in by benefactors, rather than it being set against the clubs as loans. In fact, DC told me himself that our position would have appeared much worse had he not used his and his fathers money to keep the books clean.

Iím pretty sure he knew they would not get the loan, if the council thought it would pay off existing debt.
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« Reply #30342 on: November 25, 2021, 18:59:59 pm »

Hardly any of them run debt free. Itís just that some clubs are propped up by money put in by benefactors, rather than it being set against the clubs as loans. In fact, DC told me himself that our position would have appeared much worse had he not used his and his fathers money to keep the books clean.

Iím pretty sure he knew they would not get the loan, if the council thought it would pay off existing debt.
Sweet Jesus are you seriously using Cardozo as a reference?
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Rule Britannia
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« Reply #30343 on: November 25, 2021, 20:41:24 pm »

Shock, horror football clubs run poorly, this isnít a normal business and you cannot apply a binary logic to it.
Iíll give you an example, most of a clubs capital is tied up in the players, this value depends on form wether or not they are injured etc etc.
Itís just not like a s simple as you make out mate.
Sorry Manny I disagree. You simply must apply the same values as any other business. There are countless examples of businesses who have assets tied up, who also have to be prepared to deal with the unforeseen on a regular basis. Itís the fact that individuals donít that invariably leads to issues and a primary couple of reasons why businesses fail. Any model, or any other term people care to wrap around it, based on indefinite greater expenditure than income is at significant risk of failure, it is that simple. This whole philosophy based on wealthy individual and the like handouts that had been allowed to evolve is a disgrace as far as I am concerned. As debated countless times on here, the primary alternative seems to be ground development to attract an increase in revenue. A strategy that has proven to have failed a significant number of clubs. Yet somehow we are touted as an example where it will be different and we will sink millions into a what I would describe as pointless folly in some potentially vain attempt to lead us to a brighter future. Iím not always right and make errors of judgment like anyone else. I accept it is possible that we may just pull it off because there are examples of clubs that do. However, to blindly continue along the path we and others like us are going without accepting there is a significant risk is also wrong and people need to start waking up to it and start providing better examples of security than ďI reckonĒ. Because frankly that is what any projections seem to be based on from where I am sitting and I challenge anyone on this forum to provide a shred of credible data, research or other tangible evidence to the contrary.
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« Reply #30344 on: November 25, 2021, 21:10:23 pm »

Sweet Jesus are you seriously using Cardozo as a reference?

NoÖ Iíve read it back a couple of times and canít see where you even got that from. I was simply explaining, as so many need it, that debt appears in many ways.
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« Reply #30345 on: November 26, 2021, 06:25:18 am »

Sorry Manny I disagree. You simply must apply the same values as any other business. There are countless examples of businesses who have assets tied up, who also have to be prepared to deal with the unforeseen on a regular basis. Itís the fact that individuals donít that invariably leads to issues and a primary couple of reasons why businesses fail. Any model, or any other term people care to wrap around it, based on indefinite greater expenditure than income is at significant risk of failure, it is that simple. This whole philosophy based on wealthy individual and the like handouts that had been allowed to evolve is a disgrace as far as I am concerned. As debated countless times on here, the primary alternative seems to be ground development to attract an increase in revenue. A strategy that has proven to have failed a significant number of clubs. Yet somehow we are touted as an example where it will be different and we will sink millions into a what I would describe as pointless folly in some potentially vain attempt to lead us to a brighter future. Iím not always right and make errors of judgment like anyone else. I accept it is possible that we may just pull it off because there are examples of clubs that do. However, to blindly continue along the path we and others like us are going without accepting there is a significant risk is also wrong and people need to start waking up to it and start providing better examples of security than ďI reckonĒ. Because frankly that is what any projections seem to be based on from where I am sitting and I challenge anyone on this forum to provide a shred of credible data, research or other tangible evidence to the contrary.

A brilliant post 👏👏👏👏
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« Reply #30346 on: November 26, 2021, 07:55:32 am »

I'm absolutely delighted by this news.

Does anybody know at roughly what point in the process we can expect some c**t from the Liberal Demotw*ts to "call it in" and leave my dreams a smashed and broken carcaus lying lifeless in the dust?
9 years laterÖ.. deja vu  Angry
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« Reply #30347 on: November 26, 2021, 08:38:12 am »

Do we know if anyone/who has been instructed to do a "sufficient" independent land valuation?
I'd expect some kind of statement from the club at some point. It sounds as though this is going to put back for some time as stuff like that doesn't happen overnight. Maybe they want three quotes?  Roll Eyes

- Ian Farmer Associates Factual Ground Investigation Report Ė October 2016
- Hydrock Ground Investigation Survey Ė December 2016
- Hydrock Desk Study Ė December 2016
- Axiom Structures Structural Engineering Report Ė May 2021
- Lambert Smith Hampton Viability Modelling Report Ė September 2021

"Site has significant Ground Condition and Remediation issues which were costed at £12,650,000"
"LSH considered land value comparables and advised that appropriate land values were between £700,000 and
£900,000 per acre. Adopting a land value of £900,000 per acre and allows for the Homes England Clawback and
value of the respective Freehold and Leasehold interest, LSH advised that a value of £890,000 would represent Bets
Value for the Authority"

i.e. spend £12.6m (plus purchase cost) and get £21.3m back.

In essence the council are challenging the 90 page independent report that they instructed and paid for.
I wouldn't put it past them to have read the purchase price was per acre and they costed it as the whole plot.

Absolute clowns.
The legacy of the Cardoza mess continues. Just make a decision.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2021, 08:59:14 am by cobblertone » Report Spam   Logged

All he had to do was build a stand.
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« Reply #30348 on: November 26, 2021, 08:59:38 am »

NoÖ Iíve read it back a couple of times and canít see where you even got that from. I was simply explaining, as so many need it, that debt appears in many ways.
For god sake man you use his name and the fact he told you something, thatís what a reference is.
Not really a good example of a business man DC.
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Rule Britannia
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« Reply #30349 on: November 26, 2021, 11:24:50 am »

For god sake man you use his name and the fact he told you something, thatís what a reference is.
Not really a good example of a business man DC.

It wasn't as a reference at all. I just quoted what he said regarding keeping the club "apparently debt free" with reference to Rogers posts.

So am I to assume that every time you quote someone, we are to assume you agree and endorse everything they say  Roll Eyes Roll Eyes
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« Reply #30350 on: November 26, 2021, 13:31:17 pm »

Has work started yet?
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« Reply #30351 on: November 26, 2021, 13:39:13 pm »

Sorry Manny I disagree. You simply must apply the same values as any other business. There are countless examples of businesses who have assets tied up, who also have to be prepared to deal with the unforeseen on a regular basis. Itís the fact that individuals donít that invariably leads to issues and a primary couple of reasons why businesses fail. Any model, or any other term people care to wrap around it, based on indefinite greater expenditure than income is at significant risk of failure, it is that simple. This whole philosophy based on wealthy individual and the like handouts that had been allowed to evolve is a disgrace as far as I am concerned. As debated countless times on here, the primary alternative seems to be ground development to attract an increase in revenue. A strategy that has proven to have failed a significant number of clubs. Yet somehow we are touted as an example where it will be different and we will sink millions into a what I would describe as pointless folly in some potentially vain attempt to lead us to a brighter future. Iím not always right and make errors of judgment like anyone else. I accept it is possible that we may just pull it off because there are examples of clubs that do. However, to blindly continue along the path we and others like us are going without accepting there is a significant risk is also wrong and people need to start waking up to it and start providing better examples of security than ďI reckonĒ. Because frankly that is what any projections seem to be based on from where I am sitting and I challenge anyone on this forum to provide a shred of credible data, research or other tangible evidence to the contrary.

With respect Melly this is not the place to be openly posting company spreadsheets however I completely agree, unsustainable.

I'm not too sure how many F&B retail or entertainment ventures you have dealt with, margins are fine but there are many successful enterprises and I could certainly provide some eye watering yields in this sector. They all have one thing in common however none of them are in any way connected to football.

If you go through every ground development since 1994, take out any seating capacity extension, flats etc and focus on the non football business model itself, other than selling the occasional meeting space or conference not one has been utilised to develop a 365 day business. We seem to have a prime example emerging here with the east. Utilising a huge amount of space seems almost an afterthought other than filling it for one single month a year, now unless you're Glastonbury its never going to work. There are many reasons for this but mainly ownership, planning and location are the main factors, but have a look for yourself, i would be interested in your conclusions. https://footballgroundguide.com/

I'm obviously not posting my own personal returns here or any of the companies details I am party to but I'm sure you have some figures from successful ventures in this sector you could share?

Step out of football for a moment and within the entertainment, F&B sector where do you see post covid growth?
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« Reply #30352 on: November 26, 2021, 13:41:29 pm »

It's the 10 year anniversary of this thread on the 30th May. Are we having a party?

A lot has happened. We've knocked a stand partially down, thrown some seats back in, lost £10m down the back of it somewhere, been up and down the leagues and written over 1,500 pages of mostly speculation.
If we had dedicated those man (and woman) hours to constructing the stand we could have built it ourselves.

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All he had to do was build a stand.
Steve Massive Massey
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« Reply #30353 on: November 26, 2021, 13:48:48 pm »

It's the 10 year anniversary of this thread on the 30th May. Are we having a party?

A lot has happened. We've knocked a stand partially down, thrown some seats back in, lost £10m down the back of it somewhere, been up and down the leagues and written over 1,500 pages of mostly speculation.
If we had dedicated those man (and woman) hours to constructing the stand we could have built it ourselves.



Absolutely Tone! At £131 per post we would have £4m.

Most of that would've come from Evers.  Grin
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« Reply #30354 on: November 26, 2021, 13:49:11 pm »

It's the 10 year anniversary of this thread on the 30th May. Are we having a party?

A lot has happened. We've knocked a stand partially down, thrown some seats back in, lost £10m down the back of it somewhere, been up and down the leagues and written over 1,500 pages of mostly speculation.
If we had dedicated those man (and woman) hours to constructing the stand we could have built it ourselves.



In some ways, we should probably hope that the East sits in its half finished state for as long as possible because it will be a sad day when this thread is consigned to the history books. I mean, what will we have to squabble about and where will we go to do it?
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cobblertone
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« Reply #30355 on: November 26, 2021, 14:08:54 pm »

In some ways, we should probably hope that the East sits in its half finished state for as long as possible because it will be a sad day when this thread is consigned to the history books. I mean, what will we have to squabble about and where will we go to do it?

I wouldn't worry about that.
We have the new Hotel End, the mega international North stand redevelopment, safe standing, filling the corners in, warehouses, houses, training facilities, kitchen planning, car parking, the missing money...to name but a few. This thread will outlive this web platform and probably most of us!
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All he had to do was build a stand.
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« Reply #30356 on: November 26, 2021, 14:10:21 pm »

In some ways, we should probably hope that the East sits in its half finished state for as long as possible because it will be a sad day when this thread is consigned to the history books. I mean, what will we have to squabble about and where will we go to do it?
It will simply be the end of the beginning!  Wink
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« Reply #30357 on: November 26, 2021, 15:03:04 pm »

It wasn't as a reference at all. I just quoted what he said regarding keeping the club "apparently debt free" with reference to Rogers posts.

So am I to assume that every time you quote someone, we are to assume you agree and endorse everything they say  Roll Eyes Roll Eyes
I can only help so far with this but here goes; reference; the use of a source of information in order to ascertain something, which was David Cardoza in this case, he told you something that you then quoted.
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Rule Britannia
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« Reply #30358 on: November 26, 2021, 15:22:28 pm »

I can only help so far with this but here goes; reference; the use of a source of information in order to ascertain something, which was David Cardoza in this case, he told you something that you then quoted.

Steady.
Don't forget it's Tel's ball he shares with DC and the Marquis.
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« Reply #30359 on: November 26, 2021, 16:11:53 pm »

With respect Melly this is not the place to be openly posting company spreadsheets however I completely agree, unsustainable.

I'm not too sure how many F&B retail or entertainment ventures you have dealt with, margins are fine but there are many successful enterprises and I could certainly provide some eye watering yields in this sector. They all have one thing in common however none of them are in any way connected to football.

If you go through every ground development since 1994, take out any seating capacity extension, flats etc and focus on the non football business model itself, other than selling the occasional meeting space or conference not one has been utilised to develop a 365 day business. We seem to have a prime example emerging here with the east. Utilising a huge amount of space seems almost an afterthought other than filling it for one single month a year, now unless you're Glastonbury its never going to work. There are many reasons for this but mainly ownership, planning and location are the main factors, but have a look for yourself, i would be interested in your conclusions. https://footballgroundguide.com/

I'm obviously not posting my own personal returns here or any of the companies details I am party to but I'm sure you have some figures from successful ventures in this sector you could share?

Step out of football for a moment and within the entertainment, F&B sector where do you see post covid growth?
Itís fair to say that this area is not my field, but my post was specifically referencing the East Stand. The information you have provided around your proposals have been somewhat cryptic to date. However I am most keen to see the exact details when they are released because I understand that it is a unique approach to the utilisation of the facility. This is exactly what is needed, a way of generating revenue that is not entirely reliant on football itself. To that end how are things progressing and when will you be in a position to release more detail for evaluation?
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