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Redevelopment Closer Than Ever?

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Manwork04
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« Reply #30560 on: December 05, 2021, 09:21:11 am »

Ok, here goes again. There may be some manipulation regarding corporation tax. On a personal level when you take the money personally you are liable as per the taxation rules in your country of residence. In fairness to me I am liable for tax on a corporate level and personal level in 2 different countries so on that basis I have a smidgin of knowledge.
This is probably the reason for the shell companies, you are indeed correct if the money was paid to the US there would have been a considerable tax liability.
I personally don’t think anything illegal has taken place, both KT and DB are far too savy and been in business too long to take that risk for what is to DB peanuts.
MC Hammer, who ever you are, you are correct in saying it’s their money, their deal and it’s their right to not divulge the nature of the transactions.
Conversely it’s also everyone else’s right to question this, I suggest everyone thinks about this, do we want a chairman that allegedly retains a large portion of the sale of the CLUB yet still loads the club with over £7m debt and refuses to be transparent?

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« Reply #30561 on: December 05, 2021, 09:38:44 am »

This is probably the reason for the shell companies, you are indeed correct if the money was paid to the US there would have been a considerable tax liability.
I personally don’t think anything illegal has taken place, both KT and DB are far too savy and been in business too long to take that risk for what is to DB peanuts.
MC Hammer, who ever you are, you are correct in saying it’s their money, their deal and it’s their right to not divulge the nature of the transactions.
Conversely it’s also everyone else’s right to question this, I suggest everyone thinks about this, do we want a chairman that allegedly retains a large portion of the sale of the CLUB yet still loads the club with over £7m debt and refuses to be transparent?


But Manny this is what I genuinely don’t get, what does it matter to us whether it’s debt or not? When these 2 walk they’re going with every penny they can carry. If they can walk with 10 million they will. The fact 7 million could be called debt means nothing to the club, either way they are walking with their hypothetical 10 million. Their personal tax liability would be reduced by some of it being debt, but I can’t see that it matters to us supporters, that 10 million is going down the road either way.
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« Reply #30562 on: December 05, 2021, 10:03:59 am »

Why do certain posters on this board think it is all Trust v Club?

I post on here as GrangeParkCobbler, have done since I believe 2007.

Genuine question to other posters......is everything I now post tainted by the fact I have been a Trust Board member for the last 10 months, yes 10 months out of a 14 year posting history?

As I put in my earlier post...I posted the facts as GPC, just as I did when Cardoza was in charge. Many many (far too many) did not see what was coming, did not see that anything was wrong until it was too late. I was posting information then and asking questions, just as I am now. It has nothing to do with the Trust.........
Not in the minds of all readers GPC.
I ask that you carry in posting in the manner that you always have. I'm sure you would preface anything official from the Trust in any case so as not to misrepresent yourself.
The information you have provided since I joined this board in 2013 has been second to none. Your posts on this thread in particular always seem balanced, factual in the main, and normally without personal comment in the first instance.
The fact that they invite personal comment from others can only be a good thing.
Keep on keeping on.


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« Reply #30563 on: December 05, 2021, 10:49:05 am »

Not for embarassing me and for your information I was not 'representing' The Trust.  
It was just the fact that an unelected Idiot decided to use it as a means of sniping against me. When all I was doing was taking advantage of two 'free' hospitaility tickets that had been offered to The Trust, because none of The Trust Board were attending or available to take advantage of them themselves.
I was doing The Trust a favour, I wasn't expecting it to be turned back on me in a derogatory manner.
I do not need 'freebies' and I have now declined the offer.
I will be there anyway, as I am at every away game, apart from Harrogate next week, because I do not have one of the 600 golden tickets.

LOL

so explain oh non-idiot, how you were doing the Trust and favour yet were not representing them?

And again it was your post being derogatory about the Trust and community feel in the first place is why the Trust "turned back on you"

You and others seem to feel that the Trust are accountable for every single word & action, that they should provide information and evidence to the ninth degree, that they are responsible for every failing of our owners and football club, that its all their fault.

This would be acceptable if those people held the owners and club to the same standards but you don't - then you complain that the Trust has become both more defensive and attacking in dealing with certain people and the club.

If you don't like how the Trust is then fine, set-up your own or ride on the coat tails of Tom Cliffe, as they said ignorance is bliss.

Keep calling me an idiot, it was exactly the same before with DC and the same now, i was proved right with DC, as I said ignorance is bliss.

Why now engage your non-idiot brain and reply and debate some of the detail in some of my posts?  as i said very easy to personally attack me and the Trust, much much harder to defend our owners
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« Reply #30564 on: December 05, 2021, 10:53:29 am »

The other Board members on the Trust must cringe everytime you post on here Random, you are the biggest embarrassment ever know .
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« Reply #30565 on: December 05, 2021, 11:20:23 am »

Really appreciate your responses GPC and I for one appreciate the level of detail you provide when possible.  I also fully accept that this is your response not that of the Trust and that's all I was asking for.

So really what it seems to boil down to is an unease with the complexity of the business structure and whether we as supporters ethically believe the owners are allowed to sell their share holding for £6+ million and reaquire it essentially for £1+ million having seperately over 7ish years loaned the club the equivalent amount of that initial sale.

Everything else around where the money went, whether they paid the right tax on it etc. is all a little irrelevant in the most part unless there is evidence of serious wrong doing and I haven't seen or been told that there is.

I hate to say this as I know I'm opening myself up for the usual supects to hurl more abuse my way....I don't think we have a right to expect to know how much someone sells their share holding for.  You are not taking that money out of the club that's the shareholders money not the clubs.  The club has no right to it.  So by that token it also applies to the reacquirement.  So in reality that means the amount of profit they made is irrelevant as it's their money not the clubs.

So maybe it's time for everyone to put this specific debate to bed and only raise it again if new evidence is obtained that shows any actual wrong doing.

If there was evidence of taking money that was intended for the club or something illegal had taken place then that would completely alter my view.

Nice post MC, depends how you define serious wrongdoing.

For myself and I expect others, it is about the morals and trust. Now KT might be getting a harder time from us because he follows on from DC, but there is a very similar pattern, today ask people how many of them trust DC? Asked them did they trust him 6 months before he left?

The Chinese deal, which ever way you look at, is questionable at best, especially given that these people came from nowhere.

If they were bona-fide businessmen with a long history then I expect it would have played out very differently,

If the figures had been say £3m or £4m, you might think, ok KT got a great price for 18 months work.

But £6.68m for a club struggling at the bottom of L1, with no assets or players, especially when the owners paid only £1 and £168k debt only 18 months earlier, for a club that the owners said was not worth developing, £6.68m REALLY?

Then there is this strange loan by the previous owners to the new owners - (the chinese owner 100% of the club then) borrow £1.1m from KT / DB (incidentally a similar amount that they received KT / DB each received privately)

And stranger still they have about 14 days to repay it.

And then stranger still, that £1.1m loan is secured by £6.68m value of shares in the company.

They don't pay so KT/DB call in their security and re-acquire the shares

Yes all transactions "Legal" although given that you are questioned and recorded transactions of £10k for money laundering, who knows.

Other trust (not The Trust) issues regarding KT intentions and actions (for me) that he has no real intentions to move our club forward include:

The announcement of £4m "ringfenced" we will get the East stand done -  6 years and still nothing - expect some basic plans and CGI's

The behind the back of the council deal to get the 22 acres of land

The appointing of a manager who had not achieved promotion in 20 years

The debt loaded onto the club with little asset / balance sheet gains

The debt now at a very similar level to the chinese deal

That around the ground and club there have been very little changes despite around £37m flowing through the hands of the owners. Look around £37m !!!!!!  £37m, luck if the Carr's bar has had £3,700 spent on it in 6 years.

And all of this at a club that has 100 year history, is lucky to have space around it's stadium, is centrally located, with excellent access, with no major club around us, with a local population of 300k. Compare that to Forest Green Rovers or Accrington or Rotherham.

You really think we are lucky to have owners that we do?  You really trust them ?  Expect if you are happy just to stay the same and have L2 football, in a poor ground, with poor facilities then great, you have what you want. I and others want more




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« Reply #30566 on: December 05, 2021, 11:34:00 am »

The other Board members on the Trust must cringe everytime you post on here Random, you are the biggest embarrassment ever know .

there you go more insults

Obviously i give you far too much credit to think you could actually debate or offer anything to the discussion

Many of the Trust board are absolutely fed up with the treatment that both individual members and the Trust as a whole receive from people like you.

I invite you to attend a board meeting where you can ask them direct how much of an embarrassment I am to them. But I expect you won't, you will be too busy or it will beneath you or something.

The Trust board give up an awful lot of their time, they care passionately about NTFC, they want owners who are at least half as passionate as them about NTFC.

Can we improve, of course we can, we all at the Trust get frustrated about various things, but we are 11 people, spending zero money, trying to get a better deal for NTFC against owners who have a great deal to personally benefit from, with £6m annual turnover to play with, media staff and local media on stand-by, with a local council who want to help the club and value the Trust input but have a minefield of political considerations, and then you have the fans, who have no interest in the Trust unless the **** has hit the fan and expect us to do something. And some who even go as far as doing everything they can, whilst hiding in the shadows of a messageboard, to insult and belittle anything and everything we say.

If that makes me an idiot and an embarrassment, so be it.  

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« Reply #30567 on: December 05, 2021, 12:52:55 pm »

It stinks, all of it, ironic as sixfields was built on a huge pile of s***
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« Reply #30568 on: December 05, 2021, 13:33:03 pm »

So I continue to read with decreasing interest (because the cycle of entrenched views never changes)

So my take in simple words (and I could do without the patronising response from some on here)

KT & DB may or may not have made some money on the Chinese deal but it seems like it or not nothing illegal, and nothing that obliged them to either reduce the personal debt of the club or invest in infrastructure - yes I would have liked that they did the former but if they didn't no amount of repetitive words is going to change that.

On the trust - I have no doubt their intention and hard work was motivated by what was best for the club but in my opinion they failed - (Before I get jumped on, failure is not the same as fault, which in many cases lies with others) - but they failed to engage constructively with KT (most possibly down to him) and they failed to influence the council (a view and a strategy I both endorsed and encouraged) - the council in my opinion only paid lip service to the trust's views and never enforced additional conditions on the land sale which would have benefited the club. The trust tried and failed but who else was fighting in our corner to get a better deal for the club?

I think the trust now have a role to unite the fan base - drop in some quarters (hopefully a minority) the somewhat arrogant view that "we know best and the majority of fans are stupid" - equally some of the social media players  who seem to be paid up critics of the trust just for the sake of it perhaps should take a more conciliatory tone.

I still believe that irrespective of owners a well structured bond scheme for ground and infrastructure improvement could make a massive difference - it seems a bit of a paradox that so much energy has been spent in a strategy aimed at a property speculator doing the right thing (BTW - its not going to happen!) rather than an innovative plan B that galvanises support from occasional supporters through to sizeable local business.

I'm now resigned to a future that delivers a mediocre East stand and likely change of ownership - as I've said many times the "golden opportunity" actually disappeared when the £10 million was stolen and far less to do with the current situation.

Football is unique in that doesn't follow normal rules - and I couldn't help rereading Random's lengthy and well researched albeit somewhat one sided powerpoint presentation to the council on all the clubs that are doing so much better than us - yes of course there are other example and infrastructure may have an influence on medium term future but on current standing Peterborough will be playing at the same level as us, as will Plymouth, Doncaster will be a league lower and Exeter will need to win a play off to play at the same level as us - funny old game isn't it!

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« Reply #30569 on: December 05, 2021, 13:52:19 pm »

Genuine question, why do some of you care so much?

And why are you going around and around arguing with each other on the same stuff?
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« Reply #30570 on: December 05, 2021, 14:21:39 pm »

Genuine question, why do some of you care so much?

And why are you going around and around arguing with each other on the same stuff?
Why do I care so much ? well I've supported the club for 60 years and a really want them to be around, as a League club, for at least a further 60 years. I spent loads of time and money on helping keep NTFC alive the last time the sh*t hit the fan and I don't want that to be wasted a few years later.
      Despite what some on here think, I'm pretty sure that the majority of the Trust board, of which I was a member for about 10 years, have no problem with KT/DB making a profit out of any deal as long as NTFC do OK as well. But if we get left with a very basic stand, no land, a business that runs with a £1M deficit every year and a still significant debt, I'm seriously worried about our future and I'm also worried that some of our fans don't see it as a problem  Sad
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« Reply #30571 on: December 05, 2021, 15:39:19 pm »

I will specifically answer these questions then with a non-trust hat on. Anyone who knows of my posting history on this site will remember that I did this sort of thing (digging and trying to make sense of stuff) during the Cardoza era too, long before I became involved with the Trust!

Chinese deal...what problems do I have with it? It just seemed strange right from the offset...an unknown company appearing, no history, seemingly no resources, suddenly being able to invest millions of pounds in a struggling fourth tier English Football Club..... it just felt wrong right from the start.

Anything illegal taken place? I don't know as I'm no legal expert. However, when you look through the filings of Northampton Town Ventures, Northampton Town Football Club, and Fantastical Limited (all UK registered companies) you can't find any record of any income at all. So if the Chinese paid money to any of these, why does it not appear in any of the filed accounts for these companies around the times of the transactions.
I would have thought that there should have been some record of something...??

Northampton Town Ventures filed a confirmation statement which was made on 4th November 2017 which listed no updates.....yet the two Chinese had been appointed as Directors of Ventures some three months earlier.

When Northampton Town Ventures was set up in 2015 the directors were David Bower and Kelvin Thomas, however the ONE share in Ventures was owned by a different company, namely Fantastical Limited. Therefore Fantastical "owned" Ventures. Fantastical had two directors, Bower and Thomas.

Fantastical though has filed accounts as a dormant company every year since inception. How can this be, when the Company they owned (NT Ventures) was sold in 2017? It wasn't until 10th August 2021 that Fantastical ceased to be "a person with significant control" in Ventures.

Am I unhappy that the owners made such a large profit from a private transaction? Well yes because I hate all the structure of the club, parent company, ultimate parent company etc....why the need for it if there are common directors for all? I'm more unhappy though that when talking the figures involved it now appears that the Football Club is in debt to the owners for a similar amount to the money they made from said private transaction, and that the proceeds of any land deal will go to pay that debt back to the owners. As Kelvin himself said, if this all went pop now, they wouldn't be too financially impacted.

It will take a more knowledgeable financial brain than mine to actually make out what has happened here.
A very interesting post GPC.
I'm beginning to understand the doubt now.
Thankyou for the explanation.
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« Reply #30572 on: December 05, 2021, 17:11:54 pm »

A very interesting post GPC.
I'm beginning to understand the doubt now.
Thankyou for the explanation.

Yes, a very good post by GPC and a lot of it does sound a bit odd to say the least.
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« Reply #30573 on: December 05, 2021, 20:13:17 pm »

Ok, so you accept that the shareholders (David Bower and Kelvin Thomas) received £6.68m for THEIR shares in the parent company of the football club, and then regained those shares by loaning £1.1m of the £6.68m back to the CLUB?

So DB and KT were £5.5m up on the deal, and since it went sour have continued to lend money to the club to keep it running, and it is that money that sits as a debt on the balance sheet of the club, yet if the club went to the wall then the owners "would not be affected financially" to any great extent..... it all adds up now eh?

You and your conspiracy mob are unbelievable.
They sold their shares in a company and got money for them.
The deal went sour so the shares were returned.
The £1.1 million lent to the company by the holding company is exactly that, a loan.
Subsequent loans have been made to keep the company running, or do you expect them to give the money to the company, if so why should they? Shareholder loans are everyday occurances and they stay on the books as loans until they are repaid, defaulted, or other shareholders have their holding diluted.
You might note that I have not mentioned the club, that's because it is nothing more than another company.
I know a lot of don't like it, but it is just the same as any other business and is bound by the same rules as any other business.
What about the missing money? I hear you cry.
There is no missing money(well not from this group of owners) and if you think that something illlegal has gone on then report it. It's time to put up or shut up.
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« Reply #30574 on: December 05, 2021, 20:24:58 pm »

So I continue to read with decreasing interest (because the cycle of entrenched views never changes)

So my take in simple words (and I could do without the patronising response from some on here)

KT & DB may or may not have made some money on the Chinese deal but it seems like it or not nothing illegal, and nothing that obliged them to either reduce the personal debt of the club or invest in infrastructure - yes I would have liked that they did the former but if they didn't no amount of repetitive words is going to change that.

On the trust - I have no doubt their intention and hard work was motivated by what was best for the club but in my opinion they failed - (Before I get jumped on, failure is not the same as fault, which in many cases lies with others) - but they failed to engage constructively with KT (most possibly down to him) and they failed to influence the council (a view and a strategy I both endorsed and encouraged) - the council in my opinion only paid lip service to the trust's views and never enforced additional conditions on the land sale which would have benefited the club. The trust tried and failed but who else was fighting in our corner to get a better deal for the club?

I think the trust now have a role to unite the fan base - drop in some quarters (hopefully a minority) the somewhat arrogant view that "we know best and the majority of fans are stupid" - equally some of the social media players  who seem to be paid up critics of the trust just for the sake of it perhaps should take a more conciliatory tone.

I still believe that irrespective of owners a well structured bond scheme for ground and infrastructure improvement could make a massive difference - it seems a bit of a paradox that so much energy has been spent in a strategy aimed at a property speculator doing the right thing (BTW - its not going to happen!) rather than an innovative plan B that galvanises support from occasional supporters through to sizeable local business.

I'm now resigned to a future that delivers a mediocre East stand and likely change of ownership - as I've said many times the "golden opportunity" actually disappeared when the £10 million was stolen and far less to do with the current situation.

Football is unique in that doesn't follow normal rules - and I couldn't help rereading Random's lengthy and well researched albeit somewhat one sided powerpoint presentation to the council on all the clubs that are doing so much better than us - yes of course there are other example and infrastructure may have an influence on medium term future but on current standing Peterborough will be playing at the same level as us, as will Plymouth, Doncaster will be a league lower and Exeter will need to win a play off to play at the same level as us - funny old game isn't it!



Nice post Peter, it would be great if we could all put together (and I include the owners) for the good of NTFC.

Problem is any idea of growth, risk or development is generally poo poo'ed by KT or palmed off with " its a supporter initiative therefore they have to do".  

I agree the Trust have failed to connect better with the supporter base, the only time any traction is gained is when those supporters feel that the club is under threat.

Problem there is that most fans, rightly or wrongly, are not interested in the finer, more complicated decisions involved in running a football club.

If we are signing new players, it doesn't even matter if they are any good, then the vast majority are more than happy.

Only when it's too late do they start worrying and interested in what the Trust is going to do to save the club - AGAIN.

The Trust and quite a few fans don't want a mediocre East stand with only 200 extra seats - KT wants this deal so he can get out of town asap and is not interested in anything other than a basic short term deal. The council are somewhere in-between.

Please tell us how we get a deal everyone is happy with?    

I do have one, Simple, a share of the land deal profits between the council, the owners and the football club. No East stand development (for now)-

The lease of the football club LAND and stadium is signed to a new entity made up of NTFC staff, supporters and advisors. The share of the land sale goes into this entity who with proper fan consultation, decide how to improve the stadium for the medium and long term benefit of the club.

The football club itself can still be owned and run by KT or whoever.

IF WE WANT REGULAR L1 FOOTBALL WE HAVE TO IMPROVE THE FACILITIES AND THE CAPACITY. It is the clear defining fact in the long term. The average capacity jumps up 50% with every league you move up, yes there are exceptions at both ends but it cannot be denied. Look at Bournemouth, even in the Prem it is important

KT has categorically said that there is no case to improve the capacity of the stadium or it's facilities. (but wants to develop the East stand as it is linked by the council to them getting a massive profit land deal -  funny that )
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« Reply #30575 on: December 05, 2021, 20:30:19 pm »

You and your conspiracy mob are unbelievable.
They sold their shares in a company and got money for them.
The deal went sour so the shares were returned.
The £1.1 million lent to the company by the holding company is exactly that, a loan.
Subsequent loans have been made to keep the company running, or do you expect them to give the money to the company, if so why should they? Shareholder loans are everyday occurances and they stay on the books as loans until they are repaid, defaulted, or other shareholders have their holding diluted.
You might note that I have not mentioned the club, that's because it is nothing more than another company.
I know a lot of don't like it, but it is just the same as any other business and is bound by the same rules as any other business.
What about the missing money? I hear you cry.
There is no missing money(well not from this group of owners) and if you think that something illlegal has gone on then report it. It's time to put up or shut up.

No conspiracy here Singcobb, most of it has been documented and proven.

Your only comment or concern is that football is like any other business and only wrong if illegal ?

May I politely ask, when was the last time you were at Sixfields?   I ask as it is very interesting to me that the amount of people on these forums, don't even live in Northamptonshire. Indeed for balance quite a few of the Trust board members don't either, so just wondering why the more vocal don't seem to live local. Perhaps being a distance away fires up more passion for their football club?
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« Reply #30576 on: December 05, 2021, 20:52:49 pm »

You and your conspiracy mob are unbelievable.
They sold their shares in a company and got money for them.
The deal went sour so the shares were returned.
The £1.1 million lent to the company by the holding company is exactly that, a loan.
Subsequent loans have been made to keep the company running, or do you expect them to give the money to the company, if so why should they? Shareholder loans are everyday occurances and they stay on the books as loans until they are repaid, defaulted, or other shareholders have their holding diluted.
You might note that I have not mentioned the club, that's because it is nothing more than another company.
I know a lot of don't like it, but it is just the same as any other business and is bound by the same rules as any other business.
What about the missing money? I hear you cry.
There is no missing money(well not from this group of owners) and if you think that something illlegal has gone on then report it. It's time to put up or shut up.
This ‘company’ has an additional dimension, The fans…. A known fact when KT/DB acquired their shares. People who have supported and contributed to the viability of the company for a lot longer than the current owners, as fans we have the right to question the lack of transparency and uneven profiteering.
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« Reply #30577 on: December 05, 2021, 21:02:14 pm »

This ‘company’ has an additional dimension, The fans…. A known fact when KT/DB acquired their shares. People who have supported and contributed to the viability of the company for a lot longer than the current owners, as fans we have the right to question the lack of transparency and uneven profiteering.


Sorry, Manny, but for fans read "customers", because they is all we are - dedicated and enthusiastic customers. As much as it might rankle some people, we have no more rights than someone who has shopped at Tesco every week for the last 40 years. Mind you, I suspect at certain points in our history the club have trodden a fine line with the rights we do have - some of the fodder served up as "football" must have come pretty close to breaching the trade descriptions act... Grin
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« Reply #30578 on: December 05, 2021, 21:03:10 pm »

I’m still looking forward to getting it all sorted. I’ll let the kids keep crying over spilt milk. 😢😢😢😢

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« Reply #30579 on: December 05, 2021, 23:30:08 pm »

Nice post Peter, it would be great if we could all put together (and I include the owners) for the good of NTFC.  

I agree the Trust have failed to connect better with the supporter base

If we are signing new players, it doesn't even matter if they are any good

No East stand development (for now)

The football club itself can still be owned and run by KT or whoever.

Nice one I appreciate your honesty.
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